Scarlet Witch vs Adam Warlock(w/IG.) inside 616 universe

Originally posted by demigawd
Actually, now that I've thought about it, given that SW's power can function outside of the universe, she can just attack an IG wielder from in between universes and the IG would have no effect on her.

i can't really speculate on whether or not that's possible, but what evidence do you have that she is actually capable of interuniversal travel?

as far as the IG wearer's mind v wanda's mind, i tend to side with you. it's why i think the IG wielder is more powerful than eternity -- eternity would be accustomed to 'omniscience' (which has been contradicted at times, admittedly) and so should 'know' what a wielder may do or is about to do, but despite this knowledge, STILL can't regain pre-eminence in its own universe.

so, as i said once, i think it comes down to who could attack first. IG could shut wanda off completely, wanda could turn the IG into a woolen mitten (theoretically). how do you determine, beyond speculation, who attacks first?

i'm not sure you can . . .

Originally posted by demigawd
Mmm...very true.

ok, point withdrawn. I was just trying to make the fight even easier.

But the other points still stand.

I don't know, man, SW was really insanely powerful, but somehow I can't see her beating IG.

Actually, re-reading the original post again, it's not even a battle between the two of them. The question is:

Who would have more authority in 616 universe?

Which is a MUCH different question.

In truth, a IG could potentially touch everything in the universe at once. Wanda doesn't have the mental capacity to do that (though she could give herself that mental capacity).

Wanda could UNDO anything the IG does, and could prevent the IG from working at all, but the IG's influence is more fundamental, as it makes you one with that universe.

Originally posted by demigawd
Actually, re-reading the original post again, it's not even a battle between the two of them. The question is:

Which is a MUCH different question.

In truth, a IG could potentially touch everything in the universe at once. Wanda doesn't have the mental capacity to do that (though she could give herself that mental capacity).

Wanda could UNDO anything the IG does, and could prevent the IG from working at all, but the IG's influence is more fundamental, as it makes you one with that universe.

Who do you think would win in 616 Universe, HOTU or Wanda?

Originally posted by leonidas
i can't really speculate on whether or not that's possible, but what evidence do you have that she is actually capable of interuniversal travel?

as far as the IG wearer's mind v wanda's mind, i tend to side with you. it's why i think the IG wielder is more powerful than eternity -- eternity would be accustomed to 'omniscience' (which has been contradicted at times, admittedly) and so should 'know' what a wielder may do or is about to do, but despite this knowledge, STILL can't regain pre-eminence in its own universe.

so, as i said once, i think it comes down to who could attack first. IG could shut wanda off completely, wanda could turn the IG into a woolen mitten (theoretically). how do you determine, beyond speculation, who attacks first?

i'm not sure you can . . .

Well, EVERYBODY is capable of interuniversal travel. The Exiles do it all the time. Since SW has shown the ability to punch holes in between realities, all she has to do is walk through that hole, like Meggan did. That's it...just walk through it and you are safe from the effects of the IG. Aunt May could do it.

The difference is once the IG wielder leaves his universe, the IG is powerless. That's not the case with Wanda.

Originally posted by demigawd

Who do you think would win in 616 Universe, HOTU or Wanda?

Originally posted by Xplosive
Who do you think would win in 616 Universe, HOTU or Wanda?

Here's my problem with HOTU. Functionally speaking, the only SHOWN difference between it and IG is that it also enabled Thanos to beat LT - or at least that universe's manifestation of LT.

Everything seemed well and good and Thanos appeared to be master of the multiverse, until Adam Warlock appeared and SURPRISED Thanos.

Where was Warlock?

Outside the universe.

I thought HOTU would have given you the power of TOAA, which should be over the entire multiverse?

I guess not?

So what is HOTU? Universal or multiversal? The name implies universal, being Heart of the UNIVERSE. And the fact that he didn't know where Warlock was also seems to show that his power didn't extend beyond 616.

So...I don't know. The preponderence of evidence shows that HOTU is just IG+LT-beating powers. And if that's the case, then it too would be ineffective outside of 616, putting it below Wanda's influence.

Originally posted by demigawd
You mean you'll dig yourself in an even deeper hole. 😄

Pity, I was expecting some epic reasoning. Instead, I get the same nonsense. 🙁

Now you see my frustration 🙂

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Now you see my frustration 🙂

No frustration. I've since learned that it's more efficient to extract the essence of his points, rather than responding to each point. I was pretty efficiently able to respond to everything without too much of a hassle.

JLAKMC Assemble 🙄

😛

Originally posted by demigawd
No frustration. I've since learned that it's more efficient to extract the essence of his points, rather than responding to each point. I was pretty efficiently able to respond to everything without too much of a hassle.

yes but the level of sarcasm he was using on you 🙂

Originally posted by demigawd
Here's my problem with HOTU. Functionally speaking, the only SHOWN difference between it and IG is that it also enabled Thanos to beat LT - or at least that universe's manifestation of LT.

Everything seemed well and good and Thanos appeared to be master of the multiverse, until Adam Warlock appeared and SURPRISED Thanos.

Where was Warlock?

Outside the universe.

I thought HOTU would have given you the power of TOAA, which should be over the entire multiverse?

I guess not?

So what is HOTU? Universal or multiversal? The name implies universal, being Heart of the UNIVERSE. And the fact that he didn't know where Warlock was also seems to show that his power didn't extend beyond 616.

So...I don't know. The preponderence of evidence shows that HOTU is just IG+LT-beating powers. And if that's the case, then it too would be ineffective outside of 616, putting it below Wanda's influence.

Not only beating LT, but all at once, and it didn't matter was it LT or some powerless being, literally.
You are saying how could Wanda shut off affect of IG from other universe, why didn't LT do that (since he exist in every Unvierse at once). And if HOTU was trully only universal, why LT coulnd't do that to HOTU. Only what we seen that HOTU was imesurably beyond LT or the power IG, immesurably beyond. In The End, if SW (of recent) would join the battle to help LT an others, it wouldn't matter, it would be completely the same. Adam knew no one could do anything to Thanos, but only himself, to ge trid of almigty powers. And than we find out taht he was manipulated by higher being (which we may reffer to TOAA, but we are not sure), so that tells you a little more than just being universal power, or why they came from other realities to Thanos, if he was only universal.
In my opinion, SW would be joke to THOTU as was LT or Hulk or some powerless being.

Originally posted by demigawd
Well, EVERYBODY is capable of interuniversal travel. The Exiles do it all the time. Since SW has shown the ability to punch holes in between realities, all she has to do is walk through that hole, like Meggan did. That's it...just walk through it and you are safe from the effects of the IG. Aunt May could do it.

The difference is once the IG wielder leaves his universe, the IG is powerless. That's not the case with Wanda.

that implies she is capable of tearing a hole in the universe through which she may walk . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
that implies she is capable of tearing a hole in the universe through which she may walk . . .

Didn't Meggan walk through Wanda's hole in the universe?

Originally posted by Xplosive
Not only beating LT, but all at once, and it didn't matter was it LT or some powerless being, literally.

That doesn't necessarily imply a higher level of power. Infinite is still infinite - we're just shown different aspects for dramatic effect.

You are saying how could Wanda shut off affect of IG from other universe, why didn't LT do that (since he exist in every Unvierse at once).

LT very well could if he wanted to. Remember, he never got involved until after it was over and a petittion was filed. AW tried to mouth off and LT instantly shut off the IG. So that actually proves my point.

And if HOTU was trully only universal, why LT coulnd't do that to HOTU.

Ah, now THERE'S the question. The answer is...I don't know. You'd figure that if the HOTU was universal only that he wouldn't be able to defeat the LT. But you'd figure that if HOTU was multiversal that he wouldn't have let Warlock get the jump on him and be all confused about where he came from.

It's a contradiction that was never explained.

We can speculate, however, but it's all we have. My best guess is that Thanos, in fact, only destroyed LT's M-body, which is his manifestation within that universe. In that sense, his power is absolute, even beyond LT's...within that universe.

What's your theory?

Only what we seen that HOTU was imesurably beyond LT or the power IG, immesurably beyond.

"Immeasurably beyond" is only true because you can't measure it. We can't say if it's beyond, or just if its influence is more fundamental. I try to avoid adjectives like that when describing omnipotence.

Adam knew no one could do anything to Thanos, but only himself, to ge trid of almigty powers. And than we find out taht he was manipulated by higher being (which we may reffer to TOAA, but we are not sure), so that tells you a little more than just being universal power, or why they came from other realities to Thanos, if he was only universal.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Who came from other realities to stop him?

Originally posted by demigawd
That doesn't necessarily imply a higher level of power.

In the case of HOTU, that is what excatly what implied.
HOTU is the only power ever in MU that showed us something that we could imagine as almighty, only that showed us that. Complete invicibilty and no matter what power attacked HOTU, it didn't mean anyhing. That is what almighty show represent. No matter what, everything was joke to it. And HOTU excalty showed that.

Originally posted by demigawd
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Who came from other realities to stop him?

Adam Warlock came from other universe, so he might very well be worried about everything. And he knew nothing could stop Thanos, except if Thanos himself would chose to do that, like he did.

ADAM WARLOCK WAS CREATED BY THE HIVE!!!!! HE DID NOT COME FROM ANOTHER UNIVERSE!!!

Originally posted by demigawd
Didn't Meggan walk through Wanda's hole in the universe?

not if you asked gs . . . 😛

heheh.

actually, i never read it, so i don't really know if she caused the tear with her power as you say, or if the hole was an inadvertant tear, as gs seems to think.

one of these days i really need to read that series . . .

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
ADAM WARLOCK WAS CREATED BY THE HIVE!!!!! HE DID NOT COME FROM ANOTHER UNIVERSE!!!

I read that issue over one your ago last time, so I might be mistaken.

Originally posted by Xplosive
In the case of HOTU, that is what excatly what implied.
HOTU is the only power ever in MU that showed us something that we could imagine as almighty, only that showed us that. Complete invicibilty and no matter what power attacked HOTU, it didn't mean anyhing. That is what almighty show represent. No matter what, everything was joke to it. And HOTU excalty showed that.

except that if it was truly almighty, how did he not know warlock was still in existence? clearly there was a sphere in existence outside the hotu's ability to manipulate.

that series also raised a similar issue with death, for death too somehow survived thanos's wrath and universal(/multiversal?) absorbtion. and since when has death been shown to be outside the universe/multiversal boundaries? if thanos absorbed eternity, infinity and all other abstracts, how is it death was not also absorbed if it truly is just a 'universal' abstract?