Scarlet Witch vs Adam Warlock(w/IG.) inside 616 universe

Originally posted by leonidas
except that if it was truly almighty, how did he not know warlock was still in existence? clearly there was a sphere in existence outside the hotu's ability to manipulate.

We can't tell, but Thanos only discovered what powers he had, and even Thanos mind could never understand the power he wielded, not even close. Death may survived, because we know Thanos is in love with Death, so somehow he maybe didn't want to destroy Death.
But we don't know, we only know he could if he wanted to.

Originally posted by Xplosive
In the case of HOTU, that is what excatly what implied.
HOTU is the only power ever in MU that showed us something that we could imagine as almighty, only that showed us that. Complete invicibilty and no matter what power attacked HOTU, it didn't mean anyhing. That is what almighty show represent. No matter what, everything was joke to it. And HOTU excalty showed that.

Adam Warlock came from other universe, so he might very well be worried about everything. And he knew nothing could stop Thanos, except if Thanos himself would chose to do that, like he did.

Except, as Leo said, it wasn't almighty because Thanos' influence appeared to not go beyond the universe. Taken at face value, it's just IG+the ability to also beat LT. Nothing more, as it stands.

Originally posted by leonidas
not if you asked gs . . . 😛

heheh.

actually, i never read it, so i don't really know if she caused the tear with her power as you say, or if the hole was an inadvertant tear, as gs seems to think.

one of these days i really need to read that series . . .

The answer is clear - both. It was an inadvertent tear caused by her power. I mean, use logic - where did the tear come from if not caused by Wanda making the House of M? did it create itself and just so happened to coincide with Wanda reshaping the universe? Even GS says that it's from Wanda's sloppy tampering that the tear is there. If she can do it from sloppy tampering, doesn't it stand to reason that she can do it intentionally as well?

C'mon Leo, get off the fence. You've read enough essays...where do you stand?

Originally posted by Xplosive
We can't tell, but Thanos only discovered what powers he had, and even Thanos mind could never understand the power he wielded, not even close. Death may survived, because we know Thanos is in love with Death, so somehow he maybe didn't want to destroy Death.
But we don't know, we only know he could if he wanted to.

So in other words, your theory is that Thanos DID have multiversal power, but he didn't know it?

Originally posted by demigawd
Except, as Leo said, it wasn't almighty because Thanos' influence appeared to not go beyond the universe. Taken at face value, it's just IG+the ability to also beat LT. Nothing more, as it stands.

The answer is clear - both. It was an inadvertent tear caused by her power. I mean, use logic - where did the tear come from if not caused by Wanda making the House of M? did it create itself and just so happened to coincide with Wanda reshaping the universe? Even GS says that it's from Wanda's sloppy tampering that the tear is there. If she can do it from sloppy tampering, doesn't it stand to reason that she can do it intentionally as well?

C'mon Leo, get off the fence. You've read enough essays...where do you stand?

So in other words, your theory is that Thanos DID have multiversal power, but he didn't know it?

that's what it sounds like he's saying. not sure i believe that, though, as there is no evidence to suggest it. the end sucked, in any event. the hotu was pis. we learned nothing about it, and it added nothing to marvel as a whole.

as for you and gs -- you're both so far apart in your interpretations it's hard to choose without reading it. you say the wave is her power, he says no. you say her power as shown by the wave is multiversal, he says no. you can't agree on how the breach happened! it SEEMS reasonable to say the wave was started by her, but did she need help as seems to be shown in the scan gs provided, to change everything?

you both interpret things so differently. one of you MUST be seeing things incorrectly. gs has one point -- it seems you're only evidence for her making the wave is inferential rather than on-panel. i need to read the full context to judge for myself if your inferential evidence is good enough. it sounds like it might be, but i;d like to read it myself.

either way, a pretty good clash.

i believe that he didnt have only the universe but the multiverse under controll and then destroyed it the dimension warlock was in was just outside the mutliverse.

Originally posted by Mider
i believe that he didnt have only the universe but the multiverse under controll and then destroyed it the dimension warlock was in was just outside the mutliverse.

Can you clarify that statement a bit.

Originally posted by leonidas
that's what it sounds like he's saying. not sure i believe that, though, as there is no evidence to suggest it. the end sucked, in any event. the hotu was pis. we learned nothing about it, and it added nothing to marvel as a whole.

as for you and gs -- you're both so far apart in your interpretations it's hard to choose without reading it. you say the wave is her power, he says no. you say her power as shown by the wave is multiversal, he says no. you can't agree on how the breach happened! it SEEMS reasonable to say the wave was started by her, but did she need help as seems to be shown in the scan gs provided, to change everything?

you both interpret things so differently. one of you MUST be seeing things incorrectly. gs has one point -- it seems you're only evidence for her making the wave is inferential rather than on-panel. i need to read the full context to judge for myself if your inferential evidence is good enough. it sounds like it might be, but i;d like to read it myself.

either way, a pretty good clash.

The scans GS provided was of Quicksilver trying to convince Wanda to just change the world into a utopia. She said she couldn't - not for lack of power but lack of knowledge. Quicksilver said - hey - why not use Xavier! So that way, you can read everybody's mind and create a universe where everybody gets what they want.

So Quicksilver was the moral support
Xavier's telepathy told her what everybody wanted
But it was HER power, and HER power alone that made it happen.

If she wanted, she could have said "to hell with all these people" and just re-made reality the way SHE wanted totally on her own, in which case Xavier's telepathy wouldn't have been necessary. But Wanda *cares* about her friends, that's why Xavier was necessary.

It's ignorant of GS to assume that she'd be incapable of changing reality at all without a telepath and a.....supersonic runner?

I mean, after all, she did change it all back and take away everybody's mutant powers unassisted, right?

Chaos is an abstract being, it is Lord Chaos and Master Order who make probability manifest, anyway correct me if I'm wrong but Wanda was not destroying the multiverse she was breaking down the walls that stopped one reality from overlapping the next, in essence merging all realities the way Mplate wanted. Doing so allows her to pick what should be possible because everything is possible in regards to infinite worlds. Chaos does not mean destruction it means things get all mixed up. She didn't kill any Eternities she was causing them to all merge into one. What we all must remember is that powerful beings like Roma tend to exaggerate, the chaoswave was only ending reality as everybody knew it not ending it completely.

could wanda have exerted control over the wave?

Originally posted by LordKaos
Chaos is an abstract being, it is Lord Chaos and Master Order who make probability manifest, anyway correct me if I'm wrong but Wanda was not destroying the multiverse she was breaking down the walls that stopped one reality from overlapping the next, in essence merging all realities the way Mplate wanted. Doing so allows her to pick what should be possible because everything is possible in regards to infinite worlds. Chaos does not mean destruction it means things get all mixed up. She didn't kill any Eternities she was causing them to all merge into one. What we all must remember is that powerful beings like Roma tend to exaggerate, the chaoswave was only ending reality as everybody knew it not ending it completely.

If you look at the images, you actually see physical destruction, not a merging of realities. You see planets smashing together, people and cosmic beings flying to nothingness...you see destruction, not merging.

Roma did say, however, the end result of all of that would be a single, formless blob - the end of rational existence as we know it. As for what it would be replaced with? She said no sentient being could comprehend what it would become.

If you are driving a car through the walls of my house you will destroy my furniture but at the same time you are making every room in my housr one room, that's what i was saying you have'nt destroyed my house you just made it all one room. The mortals were afraid, because she was ****ing up all the houses, but just like furniture everything inbetween can be replaced, which points to her re-writing history.

Originally posted by leonidas
could wanda have exerted control over the wave?

The wave itself isn't really difficult to hold back. Blob's body did the job for awhile when they plugged him into the hole in reality. It's the utter throughness of the wave that gets you, especially if it's not programmed for your reality.

So can Wanda stop her own wave? Of course...when she ended the HoM, she stopped it. The cloud over 616 that the Exiles encountered went away.

Originally posted by LordKaos
If you are driving a car through the walls of my house you will destroy my furniture but at the same time you are making every room in my housr one room, that's what i was saying you have'nt destroyed my house you just made it all one room. The mortals were afraid, because she was ****ing up all the houses, but just like furniture everything inbetween can be replaced, which points to her re-writing history.

You haven't destroyed the house, but you've destroyed every room in it. There's no more living room, no more bedroom, no more dining room, no more kitchen...what you're left with in some new, undefinable room.

That's what Wanda was doing. She was destroying universe after universe, and ultimately the entire multiverse would have been a single, formless blob. There would have been *something* left over, but whatever it was, would have been a lifeless mess.

She was destroying walls not univereses causing them to bleed into one another.

Originally posted by LordKaos
She was destroying walls not univereses causing them to bleed into one another.

If only the walls were destroyed, you wouldn't have seen the level of destruction that we saw in those images. We saw planets crashing together and beings like Galactus being hurled to oblivion.

The walls were broken, and the chaos wave flooded through to the next universe, taking everything with it crashing through the next wall to the next universe, etc.

I see what you're saying, and it's a fine analogy, though I'd modify it to taking a bulldozer and knocking down a wall to a house to let a roaring ocean in. The thing you have to note, however, is that Wanda is both the bulldozer (causal breach) and the ocean (chaos wave).

The Chaos wave is not her power the Chaos wave is one reality rushing into the next because the causal tear she caused initially.

Originally posted by LordKaos
The Chaos wave is not her power the Chaos wave is one reality rushing into the next because the causal tear she caused initially.

No, the chaos wave IS her power. Remember, Roma said it was eminating from Earth. That's what Meggan was trying to hold back while the tear was sealed. It's also the energy that made 616 hazed to the Exiles.

I thought they said the cause originated in 616? She caused a tear not a wave at least that's what I thought.

Originally posted by LordKaos
I thought they said the cause originated in 616? She caused a tear not a wave at least that's what I thought.

Yeah, Roma said it was a wave of unimaginable force eminating from Earth 616. Then she went on to describe how the barriers between universes were breaking down because of that chaos wave and the only way to save the multiverse was to seal the breach - because the breach was what was allowing the chaos wave to seep through and destroy everything.

Look at it this way - why would a simple hole in one reality cause even larger amounts of destruction in other realities if nothing was escaping the hole?

something was escaping the hole, all the matter and energy from what was on the other side. You know a simple hole in the ceiling will let all the rain in, it's not that hole that started the damage, but the rain on the other side that ****s up your houseand causes the hole to get bigger letting in more and more rain until Meggan stops the rain while her husband and his friends plug it up.

Originally posted by LordKaos
something was escaping the hole, all the matter and energy from what was on the other side.

On one side was Earth, on the other side was the void between realities. That void is, well, void. It doesn't contain anything. Anything that would escape, would escape from the origin of the hole....the Earth.

sounds like a wave -- literally. a small crack in a dam split (the 616 dimensional wall) and the water came out. as the crack grew, more and of the water came forth from the river. like the chaos wave, the water wave grabbed up everything and destroyed everything, until it was finished and at the end everything was 'one' -- a single vast ocean.

the question seems to be where did this 'river' originate? i liked gs's earlier analogy about the yodeller who inadvertantly causes an avalanche that wrecks a town. but gs, where did the energy originate that started the avalanche? it must be the yodeller -- ie -- wanda. right?