antimoniter vs Marvel universe

Originally posted by Juntai
It would depend on your view of Hal, the Spectre, and The Wrath, and The Logoz, and how they work together. Hal was specifically able to go PAST the Wrath, and tap fully into the Logoz, which is The Wrath's powersource. And the true power of the Spectre. The Wrath is just a projection of the way the universe percieves Gods work of guiding souls, specifically the souls that need judged and killed. It is Logoz' job to guide every soul on the paths they need to take and not just in judgement form, but in every facet... The Wrath specifically is only a piece of that whole, however it works beyond that at first it happened to Hal subconsiously, but he learned how to tap into all the aspects of Spectre ala volume 4, as pointed out specifically above. When he took every dimension the Logoz' work. Working one with God. The Wrath is NOT The Logoz, but Spectre is/can be, provided the user has the willpower to see past it's face.... and it's been shown in the comics.

Nope. Over the last few days ive dismissed the notion that a Spectre with jurisdiction equates to God.

You had yet to prove your interpretation that the Wrath equates to Logos as you previously stated, but its cool because now it appears by this post that you've sensibly changed your mind. Glad i could help. 😄

What do you mean the Spectre can be the Logos. Youre basically saying that the Spectre can be GOD. Dont you understand that the Logos IS God. A host may be able to bypass the Wrath and deal with the Logos directly but that doesnt equate to a Spectre being able to become the Logos. Come on J a lil common sense 😉

Im just glad you've altered your opinion. So as it stands, the Spectre is NOT the Logos according to you but is a smaller piece of the whole. Connected to God without actually equating to God. Thats cool and is exactly what ive been trying to drive home for the last few days. That interpretation also caters for Spectres appearances in Days Of Vengeance and doesnt portray God as fallible.

Now that wasnt too bad was it? Cool. 😎

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. Over the last few days ive dismissed the notion that a Spectre with jurisdiction equates to God.

You had yet to prove your interpretation that the Wrath equates to Logos as you previously stated, but its cool because now it appears by this post that you've sensibly changed your mind. Glad i could help. 😄

What do you mean the Spectre can be the Logos. Youre basically saying that the Spectre can be GOD. Dont you understand that the Logos IS God. A host may be able to bypass the Wrath and deal with the Logos directly but that doesnt equate to a Spectre being able to become the Logos. Come on J a lil common sense 😉

Im just glad you've altered your opinion. So as it stands, the Spectre is NOT the Logos according to you but is a smaller piece of the whole. Connected to God without actually equating to God. Thats cool and is exactly what ive been trying to drive home for the last few days. That interpretation also caters for Spectres appearances in Days Of Vengeance and doesnt portray God as fallible.

Now that wasnt too bad was it? Cool. 😎

Or rather, I should say "Spectre Prime", given that's what he called himself when utilizing the full depth of the Logoz.

Originally posted by Juntai
Spectre is the name of a soul fused with God, or the Logoz, and indeed Spectre is more than the Wrath in such. He still bore the name of Spectre, while fully tapping the Logoz, and without The Wrath present at all. See what I'm saying?

I haven't altered my opinion, just changed its wording over and over in hopes that one time I'd put it in easy enough terms for you to understand.

Your stance with regards to the Wrath/Spectre Force was that it equated to the Logos. You have now said that it does NOt so it would appear that your opinion very much has been altered. Again. Glad i could help. 😉

If you dispute that i have the previous thread added to my faves so just say the word.

Its my understanding that the Spectre is a combination of the Wrath and a host soul with said entity having a connection to the Logos. Hal bypassing the Wrath doesnt change that. It just means that Hal was a Spectre of a different nature. As for Hal fully tapping the Logos? Nuh-uh ❌

Need i reiterate that the Logos is God. Hal reaching his full potential as a Spectre does NOT equate to him fully tapping God. Do you really believe God would place his full power in the hands of a human soul? 😕 Hal reached his potential and performed better than any Spectre had done in the past. Theres a difference. Watch the wording. 😄

How did Hal ever turn into Spectre?

Originally posted by Tshern
How did Hal ever turn into Spectre?

happened in day of judgement.

Okay, thanks. And Antimonitor would lose the fight with MU.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Your stance with regards to the Wrath/Spectre Force was that it equated to the Logos. You have now said that it does NOt so it would appear that your opinion very much has been altered. Again. Glad i could help. 😉

If you dispute that i have the previous thread added to my faves so just say the word.

Its my understanding that the Spectre is a combination of the Wrath and a host soul with said entity having a connection to the Logos. Hal bypassing the Wrath doesnt change that. It just means that Hal was a Spectre of a different nature. As for Hal fully tapping the Logos? Nuh-uh ❌

Need i reiterate that the Logos is God. Hal reaching his full potential as a Spectre does NOT equate to him fully tapping God. Do you really believe God would place his full power in the hands of a human soul? 😕 Hal reached his potential and performed better than any Spectre had done in the past. Theres a difference. Watch the wording. 😄

Originally posted by Juntai
Hal was guiding all of creation[all realities, past present and future] by the final issue of Spectre volume 4. He did all of this, but was led by the unseen Hand of the Divine.. He did the duties, but God led him to them.

And his comic still said Spectre on the cover, and he still refered to himself as Spectre.
I think that may be were the words are getting mixed up a little, or at least one of the places. I still consider the soul tied to God as the Spectre[as does the comics], and you seem to see it as NOT, and that he went beyond Spectre, because Spectre is The Wrath and nothing more.

And yet that still doesnt equate to Hal being able to become the Logos.

The Spectre is also a name thats been applied to the standalone Wrath as well so whats your point? The name Spectre has traditionally been applied to the host bonded to the Wrath and connected to the Logos however its not exclusively applied to that as we've seen in Volume 4.

What is the point of this Juntai? Now you want to debate over just who should and shouldnt be referred to as the Spectre? 😕

Let it go mate. All the important stuff has been handled. 😉

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And yet that still doesnt equate to Hal being able to become the Logos.

The Spectre is also a name thats been applied to the standalone Wrath as well so whats your point? The name Spectre has traditionally been applied to the host bonded to the Wrath and connected to the Logos however its not exclusively applied to that as we've seen in Volume 4.

What is the point of this Juntai? Now you want to debate over just who should and shouldnt be referred to as the Spectre? 😕

Let it go mate. All the important stuff has been handled. 😉

I was just saying what's written in the comics themselves. That a character who died, came back in the form of a ghost, bonded to God. Which is what he was at the start of this conversation as well. You've proved little to nothing. But whatever, if you're satisfied...

Originally posted by Juntai
That's just disregarding every point presented through random nonsense. Hal was guiding all of creation, it is specifically described multiple times through the comic as him harnessing the power of the Logoz and being one with the Logoz. And the whole time, he bore the title of Spectre. We've been through this before.

I was just saying what's written in the comics themselves. That a character who died, came back in the form of a ghost, bonded to God. Which is what he was at the start of this conversation as well. You've proved little to nothing. But whatever, if you're satisfied...

Youre not making it clear what point youre trying to make. Ive already handled the stuff i was disputing i.e your claims that the Wrath equalled the Logos and a Spectre with jurisdiction and now youre trying to bring up stuff im not even arguing over for some unknown reason.

Hal may have been harnessing the power of the Logos but so what, whats your point? What are you trying to say? That doesnt change the fact that the title Spectre has on many occassion even far more recently than your Vol 4 source been applied to the Wrath on its own. Its well known what manner of being the title is traditionally applied to but as we've seen through Vol 4 and Days of Vengeance its not exclusively applied to such a being.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Youre not making it clear what point youre trying to make. Ive already handled the stuff i was disputing i.e your claims that the Wrath equalled the Logos and a Spectre with jurisdiction and now youre trying to bring up stuff im not even arguing over for some unknown reason.

Hal may have been harnessing the power of the Logos but so what, whats your point? What are you trying to say? That doesnt change the fact that the title Spectre has on many occassion even far more recently than your Vol 4 source been applied to the Wrath on its own. Its well known what manner of being the title is traditionally applied to but as we've seen through Vol 4 and Days of Vengeance its not exclusively applied to such a being.

Anyways, I'm off to sleep.
[Work third shift and all.]
Ttyl.

Originally posted by Juntai
Host + Logoz is Spectre and Wrath is just a perception. It comes across to me that you're trying to say it isn't. The Logoz is the Spectre, as there would be no Spectre without it.

Nope. The title of Spectre has been applied to the Wrath, The Host and the Wrath and the Host empowered by Logos. With all that in mind you cannot ignore the other applications of said title (especially when the most recent application was to the standalone Wrath) merely because it best suits your interpretation to do so. That is bad debating.

In Vol 4 The Spectre was Hal and the wrath with a connection to the Logos and later after Hal looked past the Logos he continued his work as a Spectre of a different nature, one never seen before. Regardless this Spectre was Hal with a connection to the Logos, it was the source of his power so how then does the Spectre equal the Logos? 😕

You really are very confused arent you? Why are you backtracking again? One minute youre saying the Wrath is the Logos then youre saying you never said the wrath was god and now youre saying the Logos is the Spectre? 😂

Dont you understand that the Logos IS God. It isnt a smaller, lesser segment of the supreme being. It is just one of the sides of the same coin. God is NOT the Spectre. God empowers the Spectre. Hal in his role as the Spectre was empowered by God (the Logos) but the Spectre doesnt equate to God. The Spectre is an agent of God, the title applied to the soul God empowers to carry out his will in creation.

Your own evidence said that Hal as the Spectre was one with God. Dont you see the difference between that and you saying that a host plus the Logos equates to the Spectre? 😕

Your own evidence said that Hal as the Spectre felt a higher force guiding him, directing him yet you think that God and Hals soul equals the Spectre. ❌

Hals soul with its CONNECTION to the Logos equalled the Spectre in Vol 4. The Logos plus Hal doesnt equate to the Spectre. Hal didnt wield and control the full unbridled power of the supreme being Juntai dont be ridiculous. Hal was empowered by the Logos and guided by it:

Yet I remain to connected to them all. The controlling consciousness. Spectre Prime. Yet I don't fell as if I'm really controlling them. It's as if we're part of the cosmic tapestry-- carrying out the will of something -- someone-- far greater than all of us.

Hal with a connection to the Logos in his role as Spectre doesnt translate to Hal, combined with the supreme being equals Spectre.

Originally posted by Juntai
And it is proven on panel, that when the host focuses enough, they been shown to be able to guide creation as a whole, far beyond the roles of Wrath and Judgment applied to 'typical' Spectre, which seems to be the basis of your arguement. Apperently Spectre is far more than your 'typical' version.. I still have not changed my view, and you're still backpedaling around the facts presented.

You have got caught up by the wording and it has lead you to make a horrible misinterpretation. One where you seem to believe DC's supreme being masquerades as a costumed avenger in his spare time. ❌

The Spectre is a physical manifestation of the Logoz. The Wrath is just a perception, nothing more. It's not even a viable part of the arguement so I don't see why you keep basing your philosophy on it. However, as shown, The Spectre is far more than this physical manifestation, and can be utlized by the wielder. I never claimed Spectre was the unbridled power of God, but it IS The Logoz that the host is bonded to and utlizes. It IS Gods power. God would be the Divine Hand guiding him, but Spectre power is enough to guide the destiny of all creation and every being within it. The Logoz itself isn't even the sum of God, so I don't know why you're equating it to it. The Logoz is just a thought in Gods mind, it was one of the Gods first creations, and is a direct representation of him. It told us this itself. "Call me a thought in the creators mind." You can't dispute this. It's written into the comics themselves. The Logoz itself said it.

I haven't been backtracking at all, I've been saying the same thing since my first post in the thread, just change the wording, over and over, and over again. This is why I've been complaining about you arguing in circles, changing stances and utlizing non-points, for no apperent reason.

I'm sorry guys.
I really like a lot of DC characters, and some stories, but for the most part, DC is a really f***ed up comic book universe.
They just seem to write anything they want, and don't worry about how it fits, or doesn't fit, until after they sell the books.
What happens next? Does Hal turn into Darkseid? Do these guys really have that little creativity or imagination?
How many characters will they come up with that are billions of years old, and their role is to end the universe, and once they get to the DC universe, their first stop is Earth, yada, yada, yada.

and that isnt the same for Marvel? or most other comics?

Yeah, but DC can't seem to be able to get away from the 2 basic plot devices:

1. Somebody bouncing around through time, changing history, continuity, storylines, character makeup, etc.

2. Somebody that has been around from, or actually had a hand in the start of the universe, and is now around because it is their destiny or job to end the universe.

Blah, blah, blah, yada, yada, yada.

well if you ask me its not as horrible as giving a mutant on earth multiversal level power

Originally posted by Mider
well if you ask me its not as horrible as giving a mutant on earth multiversal level power

I agree with you 100%!
Don't even get me started on that. I hate that mutant/God stuff.
They ruined Marvel with that crap if you ask me.
Like I pointed out those 2 DC plots that suck, I agree that the Multiversally Powerful Mutant plot sucks, and is so stupid and uncreative.
Just a bunch of crap.
See? You went and got me started. 😎