antimoniter vs Marvel universe

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Volume 3 Spectre was a fallen angel who God transformed into an embodiment of his wrath. One with God but not equating to God. So far from an aspect. In volume 4 you took a scene open to interpretation and a few ambiguous lines and the Spectre fan within jumped the gun and said SpectreForce equals God. Thats basically what youre saying. An aspect is just another side of the same coin.

So basically you think that God can be manipulated and outwitted and even reduced to a deranged state on panel? 😕

Volume 3 had the fallen angel's being completely removed from existance, but it was instead filled with the power and wrath of God. The angel no longer existed at all. That was it's punishment as learned in issue 60.

Gotta run to the eye doctor to pick up contacts. ttyl.

Originally posted by Juntai
Once again, it's you not understanding the character at all.

God in it's whole exists beyond The Wrath and the Logoz, just two of several pieces of the whole. The Wrath is a personality. It exists to kill and destroy and correct the universe, not to understand, that is the Hosts job. The Logoz is the infinite power which the user and the wrath tap.The Host is course, a human soul.

Can you refer to where any of this is actually stated because right now im thinking its just your interpretation of your Spectre comics. 😉

The Logos is the Word. It is an aspect of God and therefore equates to God. Just a different side of the same coin. The Spectre Force up until now has been a being empowered by God, transformed to embody his wrath in creation. Because of said ambiguous scene in Volume 4 youre now trying to say that the Spectre Force equals God. If that is the case then God would have to be very much fallible. If the Spectre Force equalled God then would the Lords of Order and Chaos of DC and Shazam have stood up to him and defied the will of God?

Yes i forgot God had a temporary mental breakdown and got manipulated into helping Alex Luthor. 😖hifty:

It really doesnt add up Juntai. No matter how much you want it to. Id really wait for the next Spectre volume to clear things up 🙁

Originally posted by Juntai
Gotta run to the eye doctor to pick up contacts. ttyl.

Cool. Speak 2ya later. Nothing serious i hope.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Can you refer to where any of this is actually stated because right now im thinking its just your interpretation of your Spectre comics. 😉

The Logos is the Word. It is an aspect of God and therefore equates to God. Just a different side of the same coin. The Spectre Force up until now has been a being empowered by God, transformed to embody his wrath in creation. Because of said ambiguous scene in Volume 4 youre now trying to say that the Spectre Force equals God. If that is the case then God would have to be very much fallible. If the Spectre Force equalled God then would the Lords of Order and Chaos of DC and Shazam have stood up to him and defied the will of God?

Yes i forgot God had a temporary mental breakdown and got manipulated into helping Alex Luthor. 😖hifty:

It really doesnt add up Juntai. No matter how much you want it to. Id really wait for the next Spectre volume to clear things up 🙁

The host, the Wrath and the Logoz have all existed seperatedly at one time or another. The Wrath is Gods wrath, however it is called that and acts the way it does, is because that's how the beings inside of the universe percieve the way which it acts. Hal transformed this aspect into "The Redemption", and no longer was forced to go around killing tons of guys every issue. Hal had banished the Wrath from him and the Spectreforce multiple times in volume 4. Most notably in the initial storyarc, it even went into Zauriel's body and continued it's rampage. The Logoz is the powersource, the direct tap to God itself. When Hal changed The Wrath, he was finally able to see the piece of God that Spectre truly is. Spectre is the name of the combined entity. When all three are in coordiance, basically nothing hinders it in the slightest. The Host judges and taps the Logoz, and The Wrath goes to work. The Wrath can also consume the host and take over, typically what happened to Corrigan. Corrigan had next to no control over the Wrath. The Host AND The Wrath have both attempted to go beyond their bounds, and had to be stopped by God. Ala' Micheal stopping the hostless Wrath when Jesus died. And numerous times Corrigan tried to partake on personal endeavers and was cut short, because it wasn't something God agreed with.
You really have to read Spectre, specifically volums 3 and 4 to understand the character, and it's complexities, the crossovers don't show his depth nor his power, because in them he's often just 'fullfilling his role', so to speak. Basically, if the world is destroyed, Spectre will either fix it, or not, or stop it.. or not. Depending on if it's what he's meant to do.
For the host...His job is to confront and destroy evil, but before that, he must discern why the paths are taken and to understand evil.
The Wrath does what the universe percieves it must, it exists in the subconscious of the host, and emerges once the host has made judgement. However, as I said, this is just a perception of how the universe tries to understand the way God works. What it really is doing, is leading the souls on the events that it must take through it's current incarnation, whatever it may be. And it helps EVERY soul in the multiverse through these paths. Many of the souls feel they need to be punished, and thus... The Wrath.
The Logoz is of course, the powersource, the direct tap to god, The Spectreforce. The Host and The Wrath[in whatever incarnation it may be in, though I doubt we'll see much of anything besides 'The Wrath' as the usual host won't have the willpower Hal did to see past it] are tied to this powersource and use it to fullfil it's purpose. To be judge, jury and executioner and redeemer, guider of souls and guardian of the multiverse.
I'm trying to help you discern the difference in the character...Does that clear anything up at all? I could try a different approach I guess, but I think that breaks it down as accurately as can be described without going through all the comics page by page.

Nah gotta still agree with GS here Juntai, The Spectre Force is a power force from The Word/Logoz given to Aztar who then is renamed The Spectre basically because thats what he is now. The Spectre himself is NOT a piece of God, The Word/Logos is a piece of God/The Presence. It clearly shows Hal throwing off The Spectre/Wrath in Volume 4 and going deeper in the force and found his power force which is The Word/Logos. The Spectre can be killed and destroyed. Every time that I've read anything to do with The Spectre he talks about God as being someone else or not being him. There is way to much info that says The Spectre is a agent of God and not a piece of God himself, just seems your misunderstanding The Spectre's history. Aztar/Spectre chose Lucifer and went against The Word/Logos during the War in Heaven. Does it make much sense for Aztar to be going against himself?? When Jesus died The Spectre was released and went to destroy the whole world, Michael though stopped this in the name of The Word/Forgiveness because forgiveness is more powerful then hate and rage.

Originally posted by kevdude
Nah gotta still agree with GS here Juntai, The Spectre Force is a power force from The Word/Logoz given to Aztar who then is renamed The Spectre basically because thats what he is now. The Spectre himself is NOT a piece of God, The Word/Logos is a piece of God/The Presence. It clearly shows Hal throwing off The Spectre/Wrath in Volume 4 and going deeper in the force and found his power force which is The Word/Logos. The Spectre can be killed and destroyed. Every time that I've read anything to do with The Spectre he talks about God as being someone else or not being him. There is way to much info that says The Spectre is a agent of God and not a piece of God himself, just seems your misunderstanding The Spectre's history. Aztar/Spectre chose Lucifer and went against The Word/Logos during the War in Heaven. Does it make much sense for Aztar to be going against himself?? When Jesus died The Spectre was released and went to destroy the whole world, Michael though stopped this in the name of The Word/Forgiveness because forgiveness is more powerful then hate and rage.

Aztar can't go against himself, what are you talking about? Aztar rebelled against God in the battle of Heaven, but repented and then had his entire being erased from existance and replaced with Gods wrath and power[As in, Aztar no longer exists, period.]. Which we now know is set up differently than originally written. The Logoz is the power of the Spectre, The Wrath is how percieve how the aspect of God works, guiding the souls. And these are tied to a human host. This was also told to us in Spectre's comics themselves.

Originally posted by Juntai
[Nothing serious, just riding with my fiance` to pick up her new contacts.

The host, the Wrath and the Logoz have all existed seperatedly at one time or another. The Wrath is Gods wrath, however it is called that and acts the way it does, is because that's how the beings inside of the universe percieve the way which it acts. Hal transformed this aspect into "The Redemption", and no longer was forced to go around killing tons of guys every issue. Hal had banished the Wrath from him and the Spectreforce multiple times in volume 4. Most notably in the initial storyarc, it even went into Zauriel's body and continued it's rampage. The Logoz is the powersource, the direct tap to God itself. When Hal changed The Wrath, he was finally able to see the piece of God that Spectre truly is. Spectre is the name of the combined entity. When all three are in coordiance, basically nothing hinders it in the slightest. The Host judges and taps the Logoz, and The Wrath goes to work. The Wrath can also consume the host and take over, typically what happened to Corrigan. Corrigan had next to no control over the Wrath. The Host AND The Wrath have both attempted to go beyond their bounds, and had to be stopped by God. Ala' Micheal stopping the hostless Wrath when Jesus died. And numerous times Corrigan tried to partake on personal endeavers and was cut short, because it wasn't something God agreed with.
You really have to read Spectre, specifically volums 3 and 4 to understand the character, and it's complexities, the crossovers don't show his depth nor his power, because in them he's often just 'fullfilling his role', so to speak. Basically, if the world is destroyed, Spectre will either fix it, or not, or stop it.. or not. Depending on if it's what he's meant to do.
For the host...His job is to confront and destroy evil, but before that, he must discern why the paths are taken and to understand evil.
The Wrath does what the universe percieves it must, it exists in the subconscious of the host, and emerges once the host has made judgement. However, as I said, this is just a perception of how the universe tries to understand the way God works. What it really is doing, is leading the souls on the events that it must take through it's current incarnation, whatever it may be. And it helps EVERY soul in the multiverse through these paths. Many of the souls feel they need to be punished, and thus... The Wrath.
The Logoz is of course, the powersource, the direct tap to god, The Spectreforce. The Host and The Wrath[in whatever incarnation it may be in, though I doubt we'll see much of anything besides 'The Wrath' as the usual host won't have the willpower Hal did to see past it] are tied to this powersource and use it to fullfil it's purpose. To be judge, jury and executioner and redeemer, guider of souls and guardian of the multiverse.
I'm trying to help you discern the difference in the character...Does that clear anything up at all? I could try a different approach I guess, but I think that breaks it down as accurately as can be described without going through all the comics page by page.

Dont get me wrong, im not trying to be difficult, i just really dont agree with what youre saying. None of what youre saying is shown conclusively in the comics, this is just how you've interpreted them. You must understand that and also that what youre saying doesnt fit in with the previous volumes and most certainly doesnt fit in with Spectres appearances most notably his ones in Days of Vengeance.

Your interpretation paints God as a flawed fallible being whose actions and very being can and have been shaped by the perceptions of his creation. Thats not even considerable so your interpretation is flawed from the start.

None of what you've said changes or explains away the fact that the SpectreForce itself, the very thing you'd like us to believe equates to God went on a destructive rampage across the universe after being manipulated to carry out the will of a single selfish individual. (Alex Luthor) Saying that the Wrath acts how the universes perceives it should doesnt explain that away and help your case. Especially when the mystics of DC, Shazam and the Lords of Order and Chaos perceived the Spectres actions as wrong and against his role and stood against him. In the end God intervened directly and dealt with the Wrath. Yet you'd like us to believe that the Wrath equates to God?

I still believe that the Wrath is Aztar transformed into the embodiment of Gods Wrath and that he represents the Logos, the word of God in creation and carries out its will. While it is one with God, transformed by his divine power he doesnt equate to God. He is not an aspect. An aspect is another side of God like a personality. Would you really have us believe that God is so flawed that part of his being can run amok in and go out of control after being manipulated and outwitted by his creations? Aztar was transformed to act as the embodiment of Gods will, that does not make him an aspect. An aspect equates to God. The Wrath is a representative of God, the face of the Logos in creation. Connected with God but far from equating to God. That explains his fallibility and fits in with how Spectre has been depicted on panel. Your interpretation equates to God being flawed. Such a portrayal would not be permitted in a mainstream DC comic.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dont get me wrong, im not trying to be difficult, i just really dont agree with what youre saying. None of what youre saying is shown conclusively in the comics, this is just how you've interpreted them. You must understand that and also that what youre saying doesnt fit in with the previous volumes and most certainly doesnt fit in with Spectres appearances most notably his ones in Days of Vengeance.

Your interpretation paints God as a flawed fallible being whose actions and very being can and have been shaped by the perceptions of his creation. Thats not even considerable so your interpretation is flawed from the start.

None of what you've said changes or explains away the fact that the SpectreForce itself, the very thing you'd like us to believe equates to God went on a destructive rampage across the universe after being manipulated to carry out the will of a single selfish individual. (Alex Luthor) Saying that the Wrath acts how the universes perceives it should doesnt explain that away and help your case. Especially when the mystics of DC, Shazam and the Lords of Order and Chaos perceived the Spectres actions as wrong and against his role and stood against him. In the end God intervened directly and dealt with the Wrath. Yet you'd like us to believe that the Wrath equates to God?

I still believe that the Wrath is Aztar transformed into the embodiment of Gods Wrath and that he represents the Logos, the word of God in creation and carries out its will. While it is one with God, transformed by his divine power he doesnt equate to God. He is not an aspect. An aspect is another side of God like a personality. Would you really have us believe that God is so flawed that part of his being can run amok in and go out of control after being manipulated and outwitted by his creations? Aztar was transformed to act as the embodiment of Gods will, that does not make him an aspect. An aspect equates to God. The Wrath is a representative of God, the face of the Logos in creation. Connected with God but far from equating to God. That explains his fallibility and fits in with how Spectre has been depicted on panel. Your interpretation equates to God being flawed. Such a portrayal would not be permitted in a mainstream DC comic.

I never said The Wrath IS God, I said its a piece of God. And that is certainly as well written in the comics.
As is the three dimensions of the character I pointed out.
It's ALL supported perfectly on panel.

Volume one was completely retconned out of existance by volume 3, given a complete origin retcon. Volumes 2 3 and 4 are the only ones that matter, and in one of them he was mostly powerless.

Originally posted by Juntai
No, what I said, is certainly what is written in the comics. And you'd know that if you actually read them and stopped trying to piece together your own wild theory on how it works without having read any..

Who said i hadn't read any my friend? 😕

Im in the process of collecting all the appropriate reading materials and have been since our last debate a few months back. I have read enough. 😉

Give it a month and you'll regret making me do this 😛

Originally posted by Juntai
No, what I said, is certainly what is written in the comics. And you'd know that if you actually read them and stopped trying to piece together your own wild theory on how it works without having read any..

I never said The Wrath IS God, I said its a piece of God. And that is certainly as well written in the comics.
As is the three dimensions of the character I pointed out.
It's ALL supported perfectly on panel.

Volume one was completely retconned out of existance by volume 3, given a complete origin retcon. Volumes 2 3 and 4 are the only ones that matter, and in one of them he was mostly powerless.

Im well aware of the various retcons which have taken place previously. Im just not agreeing that a retcon has taken place in Vol 4.

Ambiguous scenes do not a retcon make. In such ambiguous scenes one persons interpretation cannot be heralded as the gospel truth above all others without conclusive backing. My interpretation of said scenes from vol 4 are supported by volume 3 and by Spectres recent appearances outside of Spectres comics. Your interpretation not only equates to God being a flawed being but is also unsupported outside of Volume 4.

Wait for the next Spectre Volume and im betting we'll find im correct. 😉

Either way are you admitting that Spectre is not an aspect of God? Thats cool.

A piece of God, i'll accept as he was after all transformed into the embodiment of Gods wrath. The face of the Logos. You were just trying to make out that the Spectre Force was the sum total of the Logos and as such an aspect of God which doesnt fit in at all.

Straight out of that issue. Issue 4 volume of Spectre's series.

"I have not changed Hal -- you have! For at last you believe to the core of your being that there is hope... for yourself and the children of Earth. And in believing you have freed me from the tyranny of man's projections."

Hal: "This is your true face?"

"As best you can percieve it."

Hal: "Not a demon at all, you're a. . . a . . piece of God itself."

Then on page 14....

"For far too long I have reflected darkness in the human heart. I have been everything they wanted me to be. For the moment at least, your belief has pierced the viel of The Wrath and revealed THE LOGOZ that lies beneath! But do you have the courage to continue seeing me this way? To overide the consensus of reality and embrace the possibilities of what you... what we... what the world...can become?"

This is showing the difference between the trio, The Wrath had previously been casted out, it entered Zauriel and still maintained it judging ways in the new body. Eventually Hal changed it into The Redemption, and even had a talk with Logoz/The Word, the power of the Spectre, as mentioned SEVERAL times through the series, nearly every issue from that point forward in fact! Hal was still going, and still was attached to The Logoz, as Spectre. Even without The Wrath. That supports my theory.

In issue 27 of Spectre, he just begins to tap into the true potential of Spectre. He considers himself the "Hand of the Divine", and even once again mentions being directly linked to, and moved forward by God..

"It still astonishes me what I can do. This ability to take aspects of my own consciousness and give them form... And send them off across the universe. How is this possible?

It's not as if I understand the process: I just do it. Urge becomes thought, becomes manifestation. And each one of these reflections... each one of these others, is as much of me as I am.

Yet I remain to connected to them all. The controlling consciousness. Spectre Prime. Yet I don't fell as if I'm really controlling them. It's as if we're part of the cosmic tapestry-- carrying out the will of something -- someone-- far greater than all of us.

There are times I wonder if I'm not just one more reflection of a still-larger mind. That's waiting to call me home, and swollow me up.

Undream me.

And perhaps I am. What can identity mean, after all, when you've left the world of matter of illusory between the spririt and flesh behind?

So I sail off across the Earth day after day, night after night, in more shapes and forms thatn I could ever count. Sail off to do what must be done in order to save the world one soul at a time.

Across the Earth and across the galaxies. For my work isn't limited to one planet, one culture, one small vision of reality. The Hand of The Divine reaches across space and time... across all the limitless planes of existance. And where he points. I follow....

..cajoling and caressing, exhorting and harassing, comforting and terrifying, doing whatever needs to be done... Whatever each individual heart requires.. to awaken the new universe, the new age of jor and miracles, that lies . . fully realized . . . all around us.

Just waiting for us to open our eyes.

And see it."
It shows him reshaping the multiverse.

And about Aztar?
In Spectre issue 60.
Micheal: "So Aztar-- you repent your rebellion against The Word?"

Aztar: With all my being. I acknowledge my wrong. I accept my responsibility. I am ready to accept whatever punishiment the Lord Of Hosts deems fit."

Micheal: Thou hear the Judgement of God. You will become a vessel for an aspect of God -- God's wrath. All awareness of yourself, of any existance before this shall be burned out of you. Nothing of Aztar, not one jot off memory or awareness shall remain. Do you accept this punishment?"

Aztar: "Nothing will remain of me? To exist and never know that I existed? This is the price My Lord demands? What can I do but accept and hope that in mercy, some iota will be allowed to remain."

Micheal: "No mercy. Only justice."

So there your theory goes out the window already while mines still supported by the comics themselves.

Issue 13
"A man who died and been reborn, fused with a Divine Thought in the mind of God. Through that unon was born humanity's hope: The Spirit of Redemption.

One with the Creator and yet unbearably alone, neither dead nor living, ghost nor man, he stop atop that toiwer feeling and unknown grief. Listening to the haunting melody of an unknown song.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im well aware of the various retcons which have taken place previously. Im just not agreeing that a retcon has taken place in Vol 4.

Ambiguous scenes do not a retcon make. In such ambiguous scenes one persons interpretation cannot be heralded as the gospel truth above all others without conclusive backing. My interpretation of said scenes from vol 4 are supported by volume 3 and by Spectres recent appearances outside of Spectres comics. Your interpretation not only equates to God being a flawed being but is also unsupported outside of Volume 4.

Wait for the next Spectre Volume and im betting we'll find im correct. 😉

Either way are you admitting that Spectre is not an aspect of God? Thats cool.

A piece of God, i'll accept as he was after all transformed into the embodiment of Gods wrath. The face of the Logos. You were just trying to make out that the Spectre Force was the sum total of the Logos and as such an aspect of God which doesnt fit in at all.

I say it's a piece of God, but even the Logoz and the Source are merely pieces of God. The 3 Earthborn angels combined are an aspect of god as well. The Godboy, probably.

Anyways, I'll be back later, I'm working on reinstalling all of my stuff, I reformatted yesterday.

Originally posted by Juntai
Straight out of that issue. Issue 4 volume of Spectre's series.

"I have not changed Hal -- you have! For at last you believe to the core of your being that there is hope... for yourself and the children of Earth. And in believing you have freed me from the tyranny of man's projections."

Hal: "This is your true face?"

"As best you can percieve it."

Hal: "Not a demon at all, you're a. . . a . . piece of God itself."

Then on page 14....

"For far too long I have reflected darkness in the human heart. I have been everything they wanted me to be. For the moment at least, your belief has pierced the viel of The Wrath and revealed THE LOGOZ that lies beneath! But do you have the courage to continue seeing me this way? To overide the consensus of reality and embrace the possibilities of what you... what we... what the world...can become?"

And that scene supports my interpretation just fine. The Wrath represents the Logos in creation. It is the face of the Logos in creation hence the line about piercing the veil of the Wrath to find the Logos beneath. The Logos is the power behind Spectre. Noones denying that. But at the same time the Wrath does NOT equate to the Logos. It is not the sum total of the Logos. It represents it, is empowered by it and carries out its will. Yet while being connected to it it is still a seperate entity and is still fallible. The Wrath doesnt equate to God it is a piece of God. Aztar transformed into the embodiment of Gods wrath as penance for his sins.

Originally posted by Juntai
This is showing the difference between the trio, The Wrath had previously been casted out, it entered Zauriel and still maintained it judging ways in the new body. Eventually Hal changed it into The Redemption, and even had a talk with Logoz/The Word, the power of the Spectre, as mentioned SEVERAL times through the series, nearly every issue from that point forward in fact! Hal was still going, and still was attached to The Logoz, as Spectre. Even without The Wrath. That supports my theory.

Precisely. The "trio". They are seperate entities. It made a distintion between the three. The host, the wrath (who is the face of the Logos) and the Logos itself, the power behind the Wrath, the one who commands the Spectre, but who is not one and the same as the Wrath as you were trying to suggest. The Wrath does NOT equal God. Hence its fallibility, its ability to be corrupted and manipulated, its vulnerability to error. The Wrath while connected to God does NOT equate to God. Its just Aztar transformed to carry out Gods will.

What were you thinking? Hal being the Spectre even without the Wrath present supports my case, not yours. That shows that the Wrath/The Spectre Force who we saw go on a rampage in Days of Vengeance is not God itself, it is NOT the sum total of the Logos as you'd have us believe. The power behind the Spectre has always been known to be God, however the Wrath which along with the host makes the complete Spectre while connected to God is NOT God. Hence its performance in Days of Vengeance.

Originally posted by Juntai
In issue 27 of Spectre, he just begins to tap into the true potential of Spectre. He considers himself the "Hand of the Divine", and even once again mentions being directly linked to, and moved forward by God..

"It still astonishes me what I can do. This ability to take aspects of my own consciousness and give them form... And send them off across the universe. How is this possible?

It's not as if I understand the process: I just do it. Urge becomes thought, becomes manifestation. And each one of these reflections... each one of these others, is as much of me as I am.

Yet I remain to connected to them all. The controlling consciousness. Spectre Prime. Yet I don't fell as if I'm really controlling them. It's as if we're part of the cosmic tapestry-- carrying out the will of something -- someone-- far greater than all of us.

There are times I wonder if I'm not just one more reflection of a still-larger mind. That's waiting to call me home, and swollow me up.

Undream me.

And perhaps I am. What can identity mean, after all, when you've left the world of matter of illusory between the spririt and flesh behind?

So I sail off across the Earth day after day, night after night, in more shapes and forms thatn I could ever count. Sail off to do what must be done in order to save the world one soul at a time.

Across the Earth and across the galaxies. For my work isn't limited to one planet, one culture, one small vision of reality. The Hand of The Divine reaches across space and time... across all the limitless planes of existance. And where he points. I follow....

..cajoling and caressing, exhorting and harassing, comforting and terrifying, doing whatever needs to be done... Whatever each individual heart requires.. to awaken the new universe, the new age of jor and miracles, that lies . . fully realized . . . all around us.

Just waiting for us to open our eyes.

And see it."
It shows him reshaping the multiverse.

What is this supposed to show? Its common knowledge that the Spectre carries out the will of God, thats its mission is dictated by the Logos. Whats your point? Nothing here to help your case in the slightest.

Originally posted by Juntai
And about Aztar?
In Spectre issue 60.
Micheal: "So Aztar-- you repent your rebellion against The Word?"

Aztar: With all my being. I acknowledge my wrong. I accept my responsibility. I am ready to accept whatever punishiment the Lord Of Hosts deems fit."

Micheal: Thou hear the Judgement of God. You will become a vessel for an aspect of God -- God's wrath. All awareness of yourself, of any existance before this shall be burned out of you. Nothing of Aztar, not one jot off memory or awareness shall remain. Do you accept this punishment?"

Aztar: "Nothing will remain of me? To exist and never know that I existed? This is the price My Lord demands? What can I do but accept and hope that in mercy, some iota will be allowed to remain."

Micheal: "No mercy. Only justice."

So how does this tell us anything we didnt know? How does this support your case in the slightest? We know Aztar was made a clean slate and become the Wrath. You however tried to paint the Wrath as one and the same as the Logos. That isnt supported here at all. The transformation of Aztar was dictated by the Logos in the first place, Vol 4 says that the Wrath is the veil (therefore supporting my theory that its the face/representative of the Logos and as you've made very clear now the Wrath is clearly distinguished as a seperate entity from the Logos. The Wrath went on a rampage in Days of Vengeance after being manipulated yet you would like us to believe the Wrath equates to the Logos and therefore God? The Wrath does NOT equate to God. Your interpretation means that God is a flawed being. Not something i will even begin to consider. Thank you for your assistance. 🙂

Originally posted by Juntai
So there your theory goes out the window already while mines still supported by the comics themselves.

Didnt quite work out as planned. 😉

Originally posted by Juntai
Issue 13
"A man who died and been reborn, fused with a Divine Thought in the mind of God. Through that unon was born humanity's hope: The Spirit of Redemption.

[b]One with the Creator and yet unbearably alone, neither dead nor living, ghost nor man, he stop atop that toiwer feeling and unknown grief. Listening to the haunting melody of an unknown song. [/B]

And yet how does that support your interpretation that the Wrath equates to the Logos? Everyone knows that the Spectre works for God so of course becoming the Spectre is going to give you a connection with God. Inconclusive.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And yet how does that support your interpretation that the Wrath equates to the Logos? Everyone knows that the Spectre works for God so of course becoming the Spectre is going to give you a connection with God. Inconclusive.

Yeah, it's not fair. The Spectre is friends with God.

Originally posted by Juntai

And who are you to try to argue whether or not volume 4 fits on not? It's canon.

I say it's a piece of God, but even the Logoz and the Source are merely pieces of God. The 3 Earthborn angels combined are an aspect of god as well. The Godboy, probably.

Im not disputing Vol 4 being canon, what im disputing being canon is your interpretation of vol 4. See the difference? 😉

The Logos and the Source are different sides of God, like different personalities of God. They are God, they equate to God and are infallible. The Wrath is Aztar tranformed into an embodiment of gods wrath, he was made into a piece of God, made to carry out his will in creation. So while the Wrath is connected to God it is not an aspect in a Holy Trinity-like sense.

It would depend on your view of Hal[or another host], the Spectre, and The Wrath, and The Logoz, and how they work together. Hal was specifically able to go PAST the Wrath, and tap fully into the Logoz, which is The Wrath's powersource. And tapped the true power of the Spectre. The Wrath is just a projection of the way the universe percieves Gods work of guiding souls, specifically the souls that need judged and killed. It is Logoz' job to guide every soul on the paths they need to take and not just in judgement form, but in every facet... The Wrath specifically is only a piece of that whole, however it works beyond that at first it happened to Hal subconsiously, but he learned how to tap into all the aspects of Spectre ala volume 4, as pointed out specifically above. When he took every dimension the Logoz' work. Working one with God. The Wrath is NOT The Logoz, but Spectre is/can be, provided the user has the willpower to see past it's face.... and it's been shown in the comics as such.