Originally posted by Juntai
Anti-Monitor didn't defeat him though. Who was banished, who recreated the multiverse, and who got depowered by the other, and who would never the matter universe again?
As stated in the bio Spectre failed to make a siginificant difference. Where does it state that Spectre banished AM as opposed to him retreating after a vast expenditure of his energy? Regardless even if he did banish him AM was back next issue whilst Spectre was laid out. AM might not have defeated him but whats even worse is that Spectre never defeated him either and expended all his energy on merely depowering AM before falling into coma. 😱
Originally posted by Juntai
If Spectre's purpose was defeat The Anti-Monitor, he would have done it. He falls unconscious yes[after accomplishing multiversal reformation and the defeat of one of comics strongest enemy characters ever], but Phantom Stranger, a character nearly omnipotent himself, said "The power we need to save the universe is being denied to us", hinting by otherwordly power keeping him down. A couple pages later, a bunch of people gather around Spectre trying to wake him and mention Spectre himself willing against it. "He resists us, his power is greater than ours!" Spectre had fullfilled his role.
What do u mean if Spectres purpose was to defeat him he would have done it? Why do you think he intervened? To soften him up for the heroes? Come on Jun 😂
He tried to stop him and he failed. He was punished for his failure by God. Which tells you that God wanted him defeated and that Spectre had the power to defeat AM yet he still didnt pull it off. He failed.
Originally posted by Juntai
It didn't. Spectre never gave his 'came to pass judgement' monologue to Anti-Monitor. I'm looking at it right now on 294 and 295 of the tpb.
Irrelevant. He doesnt have to do that. Why does he have to do that Juntai? 😕 He acted to stop AM and he failed straight up. Thats the crux of the matter. As a result he got punished. Spectre with jurisdiction can and has been thwarted. He doesnt equate to God and he is not unstoppable.
Originally posted by GalacticStormNo, God punished him for not preventing the Crisis, not losing. He wasn't MEANT to do it because he didn't come and cast judgement. However, he CHOSE to do it, and succeeded.
As stated in the bio Spectre failed to make a siginificant difference. Where does it state that Spectre banished AM as opposed to him retreating after a vast expenditure of his energy? Regardless even if he did banish him AM was back next issue whilst Spectre was laid out. AM might not have defeated him but whats even worse is that Spectre never defeated him either and expended all his energy on merely depowering AM before falling into coma. 😱What do u mean if Spectres purpose was to defeat him he would have done it? Why do you think he intervened? To soften him up for the heroes? Come on Jun 😂
He tried to stop him and he failed. He was punished for his failure by God. Which tells you that God wanted him defeated and that Spectre had the power to defeat AM yet he still didnt pull it off. He failed.
You're still ignoring the fact that Spectre himself didn't want to get woken. It's stated that he resisted them trying to do it. Phantom Stranger hinted towards another power denying the universe Spectre's power. So either Spectre chose to lay there, or God made him lay there or some combination of both. Those are the outcomes of the explanation given.
Originally posted by GalacticStormI didn't say he was unstoppable. I'm saying no one's done it without Gods intervention. You've yet to prove otherwise.
Irrelevant. He doesnt have to do that. Why does he have to do that Juntai? 😕 He acted to stop AM and he failed straight up. Thats the crux of the matter. As a result he got punished. Spectre with jurisdiction can and has been thwarted. He doesnt equate to God and he is not unstoppable.
Originally posted by Juntai
That's a vertigo title, and not canon. And it says Lucifer is the most powerful angel, Spectre is the form of an angel, but the essence of Gods wrath.
The scan showed a scene where Dream of the Endless stated that besides God Lucifer is perhaps the most powerful being in creation.
You said everyone in comics acknowledges Spectre as the most powerful physical being. I posted a scan that proved your statement wrong. Thats all. 😉
Also i like how you accept and dismiss Vertigo as continuity as and when it suits your argument. When i said in that debate that Lucifer wasnt canon you argued that Sandman was canon as it featured many characters from DC along with virtually identical histories. Whats brought about this change of perspective my friend? 😖hifty:
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The scan showed a scene where Dream of the Endless stated that besides God Lucifer is perhaps the most powerful being in creation.You said everyone in comics acknowledges Spectre as the most powerful physical being. I posted a scan that proved your statement wrong. Thats all. 😉
Also i like how you accept and dismiss Vertigo as continuity as and when it suits your argument. When i said in that debate that Lucifer wasnt canon you argued that Sandman was canon as it featured many characters from DC along with virtually identical histories. Whats brought about this change of perspective my friend? 😖hifty:
Vertigo was stated to not be canon by DC themselves, I saw it as canon, given events happening in both places at once, and characters crossing both ways, and stories matching up. However, when told it's not canon recently by DC, I'm forced to believe such. 😉
Didn't I go through this already too?
What's with the circles dude?
Originally posted by Juntai
No, God punished him for not preventing the Crisis, not losing. He wasn't MEANT to do it because he didn't come and cast judgement. However, he CHOSE to do it, and succeeded.
Prove it. Sounds like speculation to me. So youre saying that for Spectre to be acting in accordance to his mission he has to be seen to go into cast judgement mode otherwise he's just joining in for fun? Get the hell outta here!!! 😂
My scan ive posted says he was punished for failing to make a significant enough difference in the Crisis. Post something that verifys your claims all we''l leave it at that.
Originally posted by Juntai
You're still ignoring the fact that Spectre himself didn't want to get woken. It's stated that he resisted them trying to do it. Phantom Stranger hinted towards another power denying the universe Spectre's power. So either Spectre chose to lay there, or God made him lay there or some combination of both. Those are the outcomes of the explanation given.
Doesnt change the fact that his exertion laid him out in the first place. All the rest is speculation. AM went back to his realm to rest and came back with a vengeance. All the while Spectre was napping. 😕
Originally posted by GalacticStormAnd your interpretation of the vague statement's in the brio is not what's supported in the comics, so is irrelivent. But you probably think people will side you because you're posting up nonsense and a picture that didn't support anything.
Prove it. Sounds like speculation to me. So youre saying that for Spectre to be acting in accordance to his mission he has to be seen to go into cast judgement mode otherwise he's just joining in for fun? Get the hell outta here!!! 😂My scan ive posted says he was punished for failing to make a significant enough difference in the Crisis. Post something that verifys your claims all we''l leave it at that.
Doesnt change the fact that his exertion laid him out in the first place. All the rest is speculation. AM went back to his realm to rest and came back with a vengeance. All the while Spectre was napping. 😕
And yes, when "The Wrath Of God" takes over, it's because he's meant to kill whoever it is. Hal changed The Wrath and was no longer forced into randomly deeming things must die in the name of God. Each time it was brought into the comic and merged with Hal, he started again. Hell, it even did started doing it in Zauriel's body. lol. It's pretty clear cut.
Spectre surely wasn't going to kill all the heros by killing the anti-monitor, he depowered him, recreated the multiverse, banish etc etc. Next time's seen on panel[pg 313 of the TPB], is Phantom Stranger speaking of another worldy force denying the universe the Spectre's power, after that is him resisting them trying to wake him.[pg 334]. What page of the Crisis supports your theory again?
Originally posted by Juntai
And your interpretation of the vague statement's in the brio is not what's supported in the comics, so is irrelivent. But you probably think people will side you because you're posting up nonsense and a picture that didn't support anything.And yes, when "The Wrath Of God" takes over, it's because he's meant to kill whoever it is. Hal changed The Wrath and was no longer forced into randomly deeming things must die in the name of God. Each time it was brought into the comic and merged with Hal, he started again. Hell, it even did started doing it in Zauriel's body. lol. It's pretty clear cut.
Spectre surely wasn't going to kill all the heros by killing the anti-monitor, he depowered him, recreated the multiverse, etc etc. Next time's seen on panel, is Phantom Stranger speaking of another worldy force denying the universe the Spectre's power, after that is him resisting them trying to wake him.
And yet Spectre was punished for failing to make a significant impact in Crisis. He attempted to defeat the Monitor and he failed to do so.
You cannot call my interpretation irrelevant when i have backed it up with scans. If my interpretation is conclusively shown to be wrong in the comics then show me. Otherwise telling me im wrong and re-stating what hasnt been proven to be anything other than your OPINION will get you nowhere. 😄
Spectre acting in accordance with his mission has been thwarted. He acted to stop Anti Monitor and succeeded only in depowering him, leaving Spectre himself knocked out from the exertion. After Crisis God punished Spectre for his failure during Crisis by depowering him. He failed, he is not infallible. That is conclusively proven.
Spectre has been defeated by beings other than God, he is harmed by powers other than God. Spectre with jurisdiction can and has been left incapacitated. 😂
Originally posted by GalacticStormOh no, back in the circle again, read my last post, it's the part where the circle ends before you start over again.
And yet Spectre was punished for failing to make a significant impact in Crisis. He attempted to defeat the Monitor and he failed to do so.You cannot call my interpretation irrelevant when i have backed up with scans. If my interpretation is conclusively shown to be wrong in the comics then show me. Otherwise telling me im wrong and re-stating what hasnt been proven to be anything other than your OPINION will get you nowhere. 😄
Spectre acting in accordance with his mission has been thwarted. He acted to stop Anti Monitor and succeeded only in depowering him, leaving Spectre himself knocked out from the exertion. After Crisis God punished Spectre for his failure during Crisis by depowering him. He failed, he is not infallible. That is conclusively proven.
Spectre has been defeated by beings other than God, he is harmed by powers other than God. Spectre with jurisdiction can and has been left incapacitated. 😂
Nevermind, I'll try to burn it in one more time.
Backed with scans? It didn't say anything helping your cause. Corrigan got punished in the first issue of volume 2 for not PREVENTING the crisis, not LOSING a battle, That's why he got punished.
Where does this prove a lack of power?
Where does this change what happened in the comics?
What page of the Crisis supports your theory based on a random scan with vague wording you're trying to manipulate?
I'll flip to it.
Spectre didn't cast judgement, was unwanting to kill him because he was tied to every living being there, and still depowered him, banished him, and recreated the multiverse.
Next time he's shown on panel, Phantom Stranger alludes to a greater power keeping Spectre down, and then when they try to get him up, he resists them and they say he's too powerful for them. I wonder why a KNOCKED OUT guy would be RESISTING them with TOO MUCH POWER? Please.
Originally posted by Juntai
Oh no, back in the circle again, read my last post, it's the part where the circle ends before you start over again.Nevermind, I'll try to burn it in one more time.
Backed with scans? It didn't say anything helping your cause. Corrigan got punished in the first issue of volume 2 for not PREVENTING the crisis, not LOSING a battle, That's why he got punished.
Where does this prove a lack of power?
Where does this change what happened in the comics?
What page of the Crisis supports your theory based on a random scan with vague wording you're trying to manipulate?
I'll flip to it.Spectre didn't cast judgement, was unwanting to kill him because he was tied to every living being there, and still depowered him, banished him, and recreated the multiverse.
Next time he's shown on panel, Phantom Stranger alludes to a greater power keeping Spectre down, and then when they try to get him up, he resists them and they say he's too powerful for them. I wonder why a KNOCKED OUT guy would be RESISTING them with TOO MUCH POWER? Please.
And yet what have you posted to allow readers to tell that your interpretation is the genuine article and not just your unsupported opinion.
You may say its stated that the Spectre was punished for not preventing the crisis but if the bio also says that he was punished for his failure to have a significant impact upon said crisis then why cant both be the case. Why does it just have to be the former? Im thinking because it would paint the Spectre in a better light if that was the case 😄
The bio states what it states and theres no reason why it cant be both. Regardless God wanted Anti Monitor stopped and according to official sources Spectre failed on both accounts. He failed to prevent the Crisis in the first place and once it had begun he failed to take down Anti Monitor. He was consequently punished.
Spectre can and has failed when acting in accordance with Gods wishes. That much is conclusive.
Its just your opinion , that Spectre needs to go into cast judgement mode for us to assume that he's acting in accordance with Gods wishes. Show me where thats stated. Regardless the point is stated in the bio. You have nothing but your opinion. If you beg to differ then come up with the goods. 😉
Originally posted by GalacticStormBecause it's not what happened in the comic, I've been making due with quotes and references to specific pages and panels in the comics in question. You have a bio that doesn't support anything you've yet said nor does it go against anything I've said, it's merely you twisting the words because you apperently aren't seeing the pages and panels in the comic I'm refering to. Needless to say, the current bio on DC.com goes against your theory as well as supports mine as well... http://www.dccomics.com/secret_files/pdfs/the_spectre.pdf right here, if you'll notice the box at the bottom where it says key stories. "Spectre stops the Anti-Monitor from destroying creation and reignites the universe."
And yet what have you posted to allow readers to tell that your interpretation is the genuine article and not just your unsupported opinion.You may say its stated that the Spectre was punished for not preventing the crisis but if the bio also says that he was punished for his failure to have a significant impact upon said crisis then why cant both be the case. Why does it just have to be the former? Im thinking because it would paint the Spectre in a better light if that was the case 😄
The bio states what it states and theres no reason why it cant be both. Regardless God wanted Anti Monitor stopped and according to official sources Spectre failed on both accounts. He failed to prevent the Crisis in the first place and once it had begun he failed to take down Anti Monitor. He was consequently punished.
Spectre can and has failed when acting in accordance with Gods wishes. That much is conclusive.
Its just your opinion , that Spectre needs to go into cast judgement mode for us to assume that he's acting in accordance with Gods wishes. Show me where thats stated. Regardless the point is stated in the bio. You have nothing but your opinion. If you beg to differ then come up with the goods. 😉
Originally posted by Juntai
Because it's not what happened in the comic, I've been making due with quotes and references to specific pages and panels in the comics in question. You have a bio that doesn't support anything you've yet said nor does it go against anything I've said, it's merely you twisting the words because you apperently aren't seeing the pages and panels in the comic I'm refering to. Needless to say, the current bio on DC.com goes against your theory as well as supports mine as well... http://www.dccomics.com/secret_files/pdfs/the_spectre.pdf right here, if you'll notice the box at the bottom where it says key stories. "Spectre stops the Anti-Monitor from destroying creation and reignites the universe."
Spectres assisted (by the dozens of mystics) intervention stopped from destroying creation in that instance. We know that. However that doesnt change the fact that he failed to have a significant impact on the crisis as far as God was concerned (meaning that he should have stopped the Crisis occurring in the first place and possibly put an end to the threat of AM at that point but failed to). Either way Spectre with jurisdiction can and has failed. He can be hurt and can lack the power to deal with situations as perfectly illustrated by Crisis.
Spectres link to God doesnt equate to infallibility. Spectre with jurisdiction doesnt mean unstoppable. Thats been shown on panel conclusively. Anyone who has read Crisis knows that. 😉
I'd have to agree with both of u in some ways , he did stop AM but was not allowed to interfere anymore in the Crisis because he seemed to have failed to stop it from happening, but at the major time when the AM was going to destroy Creation and the Spectre did stop him. Darkseid then finally got involved when he saw AM return and was threatening the Universe again. It could be said that that The Presence/God pretty much knew Darkseid was going to get involved and save creation again so there is no real reason that everyone needed God's help anymore. Does that make sense? 😎
Originally posted by kevdude
It could be said that that The Presence/God pretty much knew Darkseid was going to get involved and save creation again so there is no real reason that everyone needed God's help anymore. Does that make sense? 😎
I see what youre saying. You think that God saw what a mess Spectre had made of everything so he kept him comatose knowing that Darkseid and the heroes were going to handle the situation themselves? 😛
Well The Spectre really didn't know if he should get involved with the Crisis to begin with i believe, seeing that he just let things take there course and when it really really got bad he finally intervened and saved everyone. The Presence kept him comatose cause they didn't need The Wraths help anymore seeing that Darkseid finally got off his lazy butt and decided to help 🤣 (probably a major reason why he helped so early in OWAW).
hmm, interesting, but i think i'm gonna have to side with jun in this one.
first, where was it conclusively shown the spectre WAS ordered by god to take out AM? retroactively (unless i missed or forgot something) he we god was somehow disappointed in the fact that spectre didn't prevent the crisis, but we don't really know anything BEFORE crisis -- unless someone has evidence that i'm unaware of.
secondly, i tend to think jun's interpretation of spectre's failure is the more sensible one. he DID fail to prevent the crisis happening which allowed everything else that followed. when he was cast into a coma, how do you know the power he used to be rendered INTO the coma, was power sanctioned/granted by god? are you implying gs, that god's power failed? spectre's wielded god's power before and not gone into a coma, so why believe it was fully god's power this time?
as far as not destroying AM: the reprecussions of such an act would have been VERY damaging at the time, nor as you allude to facetiously above, was he required to destroy him at the time. he'd depowered AM to the point where he was no longer the ulimate cosmic menace. kinda like the PF not coming down on wanda -- it knew the others could deal with her! 😉
Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, interesting, but i think i'm gonna have to side with jun in this one.first, where was it conclusively shown the spectre WAS ordered by god to take out AM? retroactively (unless i missed or forgot something) he we god was somehow disappointed in the fact that spectre didn't prevent the crisis, but we don't really know anything BEFORE crisis -- unless someone has evidence that i'm unaware of.
As stated Spectres mission Pre crisis was to fight any and all evil forces/beings, stopping AM was within his jurisdiction. Its not about Spectre being specifically ordered to take down specific enemies. Where has that been shown to be standard fare for Spectre? Spectre in his Pre Crisis days was given set on a mission and he was given the tools (i.e vast supernatural powers) to fulfill said mission.
Spectre failed to prevent the crisis from occurring in the first place and on top of that while he did depower Anti- Monitor it was with the aid of the assembled mystics and even with said aid it was still a struggle. Perfectly illustrating my point that Spectre with jurisdiction isnt all powerful and isnt infallible.
Originally posted by leonidas
secondly, i tend to think jun's interpretation of spectre's failure is the more sensible one. he DID fail to prevent the crisis happening which allowed everything else that followed. when he was cast into a coma, how do you know the power he used to be rendered INTO the coma, was power sanctioned/granted by god? are you implying gs, that god's power failed? spectre's wielded god's power before and not gone into a coma, so why believe it was fully god's power this time?
Im really dont know what youre going on about here. Seriously lol. Spectre Pre Crisis was put on a mission and given power too fulfill siad mission. It is not standard for Spectre to have convene with God prior to every action takes. Im im wrong show me. Youre going by the assumption that Spectre wasnt sanctioned to fight AM because there wasnt an on panel scene where God specifically tells him to fight AM. Come on Leo, since when has it worked like that? 😉
AM's an evil force that threatens life, Spectre has jurisdiction to take him out. Read the bio again and you'll see what i mean. If Jun begs to differ then let him provide some on panel support.
As stated Spectre was empowered by God to fight evil forces that threaten life. AM qualifies as such. Spectre was unable to stop him without aid. Thus dismissing the notion that a Spectre acting with jurisdiction is all powerful. After his exertion he was rendered comatose and he remained so for unexplained reasons.
Originally posted by leonidas
as far as not destroying AM: the reprecussions of such an act would have been VERY damaging at the time, nor as you allude to facetiously above, was he required to destroy him at the time. he'd depowered AM to the point where he was no longer the ulimate cosmic menace. kinda like the PF not coming down on wanda -- it knew the others could deal with her! 😉
Youre missing the point of what i was trying to ascertain here. He had indeed depowered AM but not only had he failed to prevent AM from becoming such a threat in the first place but when he did confront him he required aid. Thats the crux of the matter and the point i was trying to highlight. Acting as per his mission, doesnt equate to an omnipotent, infallible Spectre as crisis illustrated.