Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I was trying to sort out what i believe to be a misconception of a Spectre with jurisdiction being invincible. Thats all. Its like people believed that equated to God telling Spectre to go out and perform a specific task and powered him up to the point where he couldnt fail at that appointed task. That really isnt the case.Spectre carrys out Gods will, he's the embodiment of Gods wrath, but it isnt God manifest. God doesnt work directly through Spectre. He empowers him. Spectre is placed on mission, a set of guidelines to adhere to and a set of goals to accomplish and he makes his own decisions about how to adhere to said mission. Spectres pre-crisis mission was to fight evil forces. Therefore Spectre fighting Anti Monitor and anything evil which threatened life are examples of Spectre with jurisdiction. Juntai was trying to say Spectre has to go into "cast judgement mode" before any of us could consider Spectre any instance to be him acting with jurisdiction. That is wrong ❌ We have been told many a time what his mission was and Spectre acting in accordance with that mission is a Spectre with jurisdiction. Juntai was trying to say that a Spectre with jurisdiction can only be defeated by God.
A Spectre with jurisdiction has conclusively been shown on panel to not be omnipotent (he required the aid of the assembled mystics in crisis to depower AM) and is not invincible. Thats the only point i was trying to make and you said you think you sided with Juntai but now youre saying we seem to be agreeing which has left me very confused lol.
hmm, i was under the impression jun was saying what i was saying -- a spectre given 'special' consent or jurisdiction is invincible. for some reason, i thought there were cases where that happened.
it boils down to this: were god truly acting through spectre then he WOULD be invincible. i thought that's what jun was saying. to say otherwise makes no sense -- on panel evidence or no, it's common sense -- if god wants to 'win', he wins; he he decrees spectre invincible, he IS invincible.
spectre DOES have a specific power set however, that MAY be countered and defied -- it's been shown many times. 'regular' spectre is not totally invincible, though he is quite close.
Originally posted by leonidasExactly.
hmm, i was under the impression jun was saying what i was saying -- a spectre given 'special' consent or jurisdiction is invincible. for some reason, i thought there were cases where that happened.it boils down to this: were god truly acting through spectre then he WOULD be invincible. i thought that's what jun was saying. to say otherwise makes no sense -- on panel evidence or no, it's common sense -- if god wants to 'win', he wins; he he decrees spectre invincible, he IS invincible.
spectre DOES have a specific power set however, that MAY be countered and defied -- it's been shown many times. 'regular' spectre is not totally invincible, though he is quite close.
Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, i was under the impression jun was saying what i was saying -- a spectre given 'special' consent or jurisdiction is invincible. for some reason, i thought there were cases where that happened.
But where has such a Spectre been shown. This whole Spectre with jurisdiction stuff needs to be cleared up. In Pre crisis times everytime Spectre fought an evil force he was doing so with jurisdiction as performing such actions was in accordance with his God given mission. A Spectre with jurisdiction is just Spectre in line with his mission not a Spectre amped up by God to take out someone God wants taking out.
Originally posted by leonidas
it boils down to this: were god truly acting through spectre then he WOULD be invincible. i thought that's what jun was saying. to say otherwise makes no sense -- on panel evidence or no, it's common sense -- if god wants to 'win', he wins; he he decrees spectre invincible, he IS invincible.
If God was acting directly through anyone then they would be invincible.
Noones denying that. That hasnt been shown on panel however to be the relationship between God and the Spectre. Spectre is NOT God manifest he is an agent of God who God has set on a mission and given a set of powers sufficient to successfully carry out said mission as long as Spectre acts wisely and makes the right decisions. Thats the point ive been trying to make.
Originally posted by leonidas
spectre DOES have a specific power set however, that MAY be countered and defied -- it's been shown many times. 'regular' spectre is not totally invincible, though he is quite close.
Cool. 😄
Originally posted by Juntai
Spectre is a piece of God, not a mere agent.
And when that piece decides to act in accordinance with the judgement of the bearer of the power, that's it.
Spectre is the embodiment of Gods wrath and as such is one with and represents the Logos in creation. We've had this debate before. Days of Vengeance pretty much tells you that the Spectre does NOT equate to the Logos unless youre willing to admit that God is fallible and can be manipulated by Alex Luthor.
Originally posted by GalacticStormSpectre being involved in Day of Vengeance altogether is PIS, Spectre CANNOT exist on the mortal plane without a host. It's universal law. Yet he did anyways.
Spectre is the embodiment of Gods wrath and as such is one with and represents the Logos in creation. We've had this debate before. Days of Vengeance pretty much tells you that the Spectre does NOT equate to the Logos unless youre willing to admit that God is fallible and can be manipulated by Alex Luthor.
And he was manipulated third party, through the former wrath, Eclipso. Without a host to judge, it went crazy. It's been crazy since Jesus' death and needs a mortal to judge for its near infinite energy.
Needless to say he still did everything he set out to do in Day of Vengeance and no one stopped him. Until God interviened.... again.
Originally posted by Juntai
Spectre being involved in Day of Vengeance altogether is PIS, Spectre CANNOT exist on the mortal plane without a host. It's universal law. Yet he did anyways.And he was manipulated third party, through the former wrath, Eclipso. Without a host to judge, it went crazy. It's been crazy since Jesus' death.
Needless to say he still did everything he set out to do in Day of Vengeance and no one stopped him.
So God is suceptible to PIS and the degradation of his mental faculties? ❌
The supreme being is absolute Juntai. It just doesnt add up.
Originally posted by GalacticStormThe PIS of him not supposed to be there is true. He cannot exist on the mortal plane without a host, that is fact. It held true through the history of the character UNTIL Day of Vengence.
So God is suceptible to PIS and the degradation of his mental faculties? ❌The supreme being is absolute Juntai. It just doesnt add up.
The Logoz is the power of God, an infinite powersource.
The Wrath is Gods blind anger, held in check by certain univeral laws, such as the fact it must be tied to a human host. It used to act as it should, until Jesus died, and it deemed the universe must be destroyed for it's heinous act. Essentially, it kind of went insane.
The Host is the Judge to help guide it.
And no matter how much you try to debase him, Spectre is still the top manifest being in DC. As stated earlier, the characters themselves recognize it as such as well.
Originally posted by Juntai
The PIS of him not supposed to be there is true. He cannot exist on the mortal plane without a host, that is fact.
The WRATH and the SPECTRE/LOGOZ and it's HOST are intertwined entities, if you actually READ Spectre comics, you'd know more of how to differentiate between them, but I have a hard time summing up 60 years worth of comics in a handful of sentences. It held true through the history of the character UNTIL Day of Vengence.
You're just having a complete misunderstanding of the character.
Nope. Youre using a few abiguous lines from the 4th volume to try and equate Spectre to God. In volumes 1 to 3 Spectre wasnt an aspect of God so why you'd need to sum up 60 years of comics for me i really dont know.
You claim the Spectre Force to be one and the same as the Logoz but how can that be when the Logos created the Spectre Force?
Spectre saying i am the Logos is the equivalent of Rachel Summer ssaying i am the Phoenix. Does that mean Rachel is literally the life force of creation? ❌
Not anymore than it means the Spectre Force is one and the same as The Word/Logos. The same SpectreForce that was far from omnipotent, was deranged and got manipulated into serving Alex Luthor.
SpectreForce equates to God? ❌
Doesnt fit, unless youre willing to state that God is fallible.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. Youre using a few abiguous lines from the 4th volume to try and equate Spectre to God. In volumes 1 to 3 Spectre wasnt an aspect of God so why you'd need to sum up 60 years of comics for me i really dont know.You claim the Spectre Force to be one and the same as the Logoz but how can that be when the Logos created the Spectre Force?
Spectre saying i am the Logos is the equivalent of Rachel Summer ssaying i am the Phoenix. Does that mean Rachel is literally the life force of creation? ❌
Not anymore than it means the Spectre Force is one and the same as The Word/Logos. The same SpectreForce that was far from omnipotent, was deranged and got manipulated into serving Alex Luthor.
SpectreForce equates to God? ❌
Doesnt fit, unless youre willing to state that God is fallible.
Originally posted by JuntaiAnd no matter how much you try to debase him, Spectre is still the top manifest being in DC. As stated earlier, the characters themselves recognize it as such as well.
The Brothers are debatably beyond him as potential successors of God. Lucifer disregards Spectre and hasnt Michael defeated him before? And yet the Spectre equates to God? 😕
Originally posted by GalacticStormMicheal defeated the The Wrath through the will of the Logoz.
The Brothers are debatably beyond him as potential successors of God. Lucifer disregards Spectre and hasnt Michael defeated him before? And yet the Spectre equates to God? 😕
Spectre with a fallen angel host conquered hell with a snap of his finger, I doubt Lucifer just disregards him.
Spectre has also saved Micheal in history on occasion.
Originally posted by GalacticStormDepends on what your view of 'in check' is as compared to Gods view of the same. The Wrath serves it's purpose, even when banished from The Logoz, it continued doing the same in other bodies.
So youre saying that God is fallible. He cant keep his blind rage in check and its this we saw in Days of Vengeance? 😕
Originally posted by Juntai
Micheal defeated the The Wrath through the will of the Logoz.
Once again, complete misunderstanding of the character.Spectre with a fallen angel host conquered hell with a snap of his finger, I doubt Lucifer just disregards him.
Spectre has also saved Micheal in history on occasion.
And yet none of this changes the fact that the Spectre Force equating to God just doesnt add up.
For that to be the case God would have to be infallible. Going by your interpretation in Days of Vengeance The Spectre Force got manipulated by Alex Luthor and then got outwitted by Nabu into getting the attention of himself, who subsequently punished himself 😖hifty:
Nope. Youre using a few abiguous lines from the 4th volume to try and equate Spectre to God. In volumes 1 to 3 Spectre wasnt an aspect of God so why you'd need to sum up 60 years of comics for me i really dont know.
Originally posted by Juntai
In the first two volumes Spectre was just an agent of God with near-infinite power, volume 2 was a punished Spectre rolling out of Crisis, Volumes 3 made him an aspect of God and more powerful than ever, and gave us definition into the seperate entities, as well as past Wraths/ and hosts. Volume 4 took it the next step and showed us how it all works.
Volume 3 Spectre was a fallen angel who God transformed into an embodiment of his wrath. One with God but not equating to God. So far from an aspect. In volume 4 you took a scene open to interpretation and a few ambiguous lines and the Spectre fan within jumped the gun and said SpectreForce equals God. Thats basically what youre saying. An aspect is just another side of the same coin.
So basically you think that God can be manipulated and outwitted and even reduced to a deranged state on panel? 😕
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
And yet none of this changes the fact that the Spectre Force equating to God just doesnt add up.For that to be the case God would have to be infallible. Going by your interpretation in Days of Vengeance The Spectre Force got manipulated by Alex Luthor and then got outwitted by Nabu into getting the attention of himself, who subsequently punished himself 😖hifty:
God in it's whole exists beyond The Wrath and the Logoz, just two of several pieces of the whole. The Wrath is a personality. It exists to kill and destroy and correct the universe, not to understand, that is the Hosts job. The Logoz is the infinite power which the user and the wrath tap.The Host is course, a human soul.