Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As stated Spectres mission Pre crisis was to fight any and all evil forces/beings, stopping AM was within his jurisdiction. Its not about Spectre being specifically ordered to take down specific enemies. Where has that been shown to be standard fare for Spectre? Spectre in his Pre Crisis days was given set on a mission and he was given the tools (i.e vast supernatural powers) to fulfill said mission.Spectre failed to prevent the crisis from occurring in the first place and on top of that while he did depower Anti- Monitor it was with the aid of the assembled mystics and even with said aid it was still a struggle. Perfectly illustrating my point that Spectre with jurisdiction isnt all powerful and isnt infallible.
Im really dont know what youre going on about here. Seriously lol. Spectre Pre Crisis was put on a mission and given power too fulfill siad mission. It is not standard for Spectre to have convene with God prior to every action takes. Im im wrong show me. Youre going by the assumption that Spectre wasnt sanctioned to fight AM because there wasnt an on panel scene where God specifically tells him to fight AM. Come on Leo, since when has it worked like that? 😉
AM's an evil force that threatens life, Spectre has jurisdiction to take him out. Read the bio again and you'll see what i mean. If Jun begs to differ then let him provide some on panel support.
As stated Spectre was empowered by God to fight evil forces that threaten life. AM qualifies as such. Spectre was unable to stop him without aid. Thus dismissing the notion that a Spectre acting with jurisdiction is all powerful. After his exertion he was rendered comatose and he remained so for unexplained reasons.
Youre missing the point of what i was trying to ascertain here. He had indeed depowered AM but not only had he failed to prevent AM from becoming such a threat in the first place but when he did confront him he required aid. Thats the crux of the matter and the point i was trying to highlight. Acting as per his mission, doesnt equate to an omnipotent, infallible Spectre as crisis illustrated.
by that reasoning, you could have listed any one of a bunch of characters pre-crisis who gave spectre trouble. why harp on AM?
and who said he's infallible? ages ago azmodeus battled spectre to a stalemate. by your reasoning, his whole existence has been a failure. after all, evil still exists and god granted him power to wipe it out. did/does god not want him to succeed? that fact alone proves he is fallible. throughout his history others have defied or stood up to him -- shaitan, kulak, beltane to name just a couple. hell, in one role, even psycho-pirate caused him some trouble! we know he can be harmed or defeated by sufficient magical powers or weapons.
if god wills him to wipe out all evil, do you think he couldn't? had it really been god's wish to have spectre kill or destroy AM do you think he would have been unable to? this is why over the years writers have often had such a hard time dealing with the character.
i think you're highlighting the wrong thing. what we should be asking is what does it say about the spectre/god relationship that spectre DID struggle with AM and these others. the spectre character has gone through a LOT of changes over the years, including a pre-crisis depowering before he was set upon his mission to maintain a cosmic balance. in THAT regard he did fail. but why would god allow this?
essentially you're saying his battle with am shows he's not 'invincible'. you didn't need THAT battle to show that. jun's point (i think) is that if god truly IS acting through spectre (which i believe he has been shown to do in more recent incarnations) then he truly is invincible -- unless you're going to say an enemy could overcome god. since god certainly could have willed am's defeat, the question becomes why did god let it reach the point it did?
he cant destroy evil its like when he tried killing darkseid if he did kill him then the universe would collapse like it did so he CAN kill all evil but if he did he'd have to kill an essential part of the universe, even galactus can be labled as evil yet if he dies he will end the universe. there is no one in the MU sept TOAA who can stand up to the antimonitor
Mider look at who stopped the AM. Marvels cosmics do intervene, when it's necessary. After Spectre fought him, Darkseid omega effected him and multiple supermen punched him............ Do they>>>> Eternity, Galactus, death, Celestial Hosts?? No.
The Marvel universe would win, and easily with the help of the cosmics. The only thing that keeps it from happening in your mind is pigheaded biaseness.
And both LT and Spectre have low showings. Why do you refuse to acknowledge that fact?? You sound like a child.
after he fought the spectre umm is that some kind of joke? what do you think he went out of that fight as fresh as a daisy???????? and not even the omega effects killed him it took other thinks to finish him off so that argument isnt great. and no Spectre doesnt have many low showings he says i didnt have that power then and he just raises his power and is able to defeat whoever he lost to he said that to nabu when he said i couldnt beat you before and nabu said that was dr fate not me, anyway are any of those beings you mentioned able to destroy the universe, no so why are you even bringing them up antimonitor killed so many universes they were no longer infinite. LT's power level has not been said to go up or down he has had a low showing against the IG, he was like i dont know if i can beat it, then when he fought korvac he ran away cause his judgement proved useless. Spectre loses sometimes then he can call forth more power and then just womp whoever womped him last. LT has trouble with Dr Strange dude, Spectre had trouble with Dr Fate true but later womped his source of power.......nabu who is stronger then shazam the wizard, he even broke the rock of eternity that is the source of all magic is it not? He defeated fifth dimension imps name me one of those people in your list that could beat a fifth dimension imp and no LT cant the best showings ive seen him do is beat a pheonix avatar and thats not so great a showing considering you just gotta kill the host, xorn did that, galactus almost ate one. Nope his powers are not that much above eternity in fact eternity has been said that he can overturn his judgements. Why do i sound like a child i only stated whats fact.
Originally posted by Mider
after he fought the spectre umm is that some kind of joke? what do you think he went out of that fight as fresh as a daisy???????? and not even the omega effects killed him it took other thinks to finish him off so that argument isnt great. and no Spectre doesnt have many low showings he says i didnt have that power then and he just raises his power and is able to defeat whoever he lost to he said that to nabu when he said i couldnt beat you before and nabu said that was dr fate not me, anyway are any of those beings you mentioned able to destroy the universe, no so why are you even bringing them up antimonitor killed so many universes they were no longer infinite. LT's power level has not been said to go up or down he has had a low showing against the IG, he was like i dont know if i can beat it, then when he fought korvac he ran away cause his judgement proved useless. Spectre loses sometimes then he can call forth more power and then just womp whoever womped him last. LT has trouble with Dr Strange dude, Spectre had trouble with Dr Fate true but later womped his source of power.......nabu who is stronger then shazam the wizard, he even broke the rock of eternity that is the source of all magic is it not? He defeated fifth dimension imps name me one of those people in your list that could beat a fifth dimension imp and no LT cant the best showings ive seen him do is beat a pheonix avatar and thats not so great a showing considering you just gotta kill the host, xorn did that, galactus almost ate one. Nope his powers are not that much above eternity in fact eternity has been said that he can overturn his judgements. Why do i sound like a child i only stated whats fact.
You're never stating fact. All you ever state is a buch of childish dribble that never makes any sense. You refuse to take in facts, just so you can say that you're right. Well Mider, here's a news flash.
WE ARE RIGHT! YOU ARE WRONG! THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO DISPROVE US!
Now, this is for everybody else. Guys, this kid hates Marvel comics. This kid tried to argue that Slade could beat Iron Man and Doctor Doom. He starts threads like this to see Marvel characters go down. So, here's what I propose. If you have a scan of a Marvel character whupping up on a DC character, post it up.
i hate marvel comics? Thats why i own secret wars I and II, The IG Saga, the Korvac saga TPB which was expensive on amazon, Thanos The End and i did state fact sweetheart more then you ever do and your just as bad do you ever give up your arguments? no you always gotta take a post and critizise it cause you cant ever just bring comic book knowledge to this place i mean save your opinions about me for someone who cares and bring the comic facts no body cares what you think about me. And you wanna talk about stupid statements you think that Iron man could beat Wonder Women oh but he could with prep pfft so could the joker whats your point? Antimonitor is equal to galactus, another brillient deduction, ben grim wins against a guy who is fast enough to hit superman, and kid flash even while running but oh no he cant hit ben. and his weapons wont hurt ben i mean if wolvie cant even though he dont even have super strenth of speed then no one can, even though slade got meta grenades, super speed and the like yup your so brillient compared to me.
Originally posted by Mider
i hate marvel comics? Thats why i own secret wars I and II, The IG Saga, the Korvac saga TPB which was expensive on amazon, Thanos The End and i did state fact sweetheart more then you ever do and your just as bad do you ever give up your arguments? no you always gotta take a post and critizise it cause you cant ever just bring comic book knowledge to this place i mean save your opinions about me for someone who cares and bring the comic facts no body cares what you think about me. And you wanna talk about stupid statements you think that Iron man could beat Wonder Women oh but he could with prep pfft so could the joker whats your point? Antimonitor is equal to galactus, another brillient deduction, ben grim wins against a guy who is fast enough to hit superman, and kid flash even while running but oh no he cant hit ben. and his weapons wont hurt ben i mean if wolvie cant even though he dont even have super strenth of speed then no one can, even though slade got meta grenades, super speed and the like yup your so brillient compared to me.
This isn't about Slade, or Venom, or anything like that. You go around, being a jerk to anyone with a different opinion, and even when a DC character is outclassed, you still try to make a dumb argument. I don't care about what Marvel comics you own. I own a book on how to learn Biblical Greek. It doesn't mean that I don't hate it.
I think the fact of me being brilliant compared to you is kinda obvious at this point, considering I can actually spell the word.
Ever heard of punctuation? Evidently not, considering you can't even type. I've seen monkeys that can type better than you.
You ever heard of a jobber? That's what Slade is. He has jobber written all over him. I sincerely doubt he can tag Superman flying at full speed.
The anti-monitor thing? Galactus can destroy galaxies with ease. I doubt blowing up the Anti-Monitor would be too much out of his reach.
I don't bring comic book knowledge here? I guarantee that more than fifteen people can vouch that I have put scans and information on these pages, but you have provided none. Practice what you preach, dick.
Once again, I have handed you your ass. I always have handed you your ass, and I always will hand you your ass. You go around these forums giving people who are educated and have proof a lot of shit because their opinion differs than you. You attack Marvel fans all of the time for no reason, and even though you claim to own Marvel comics, you still can't grasp reality that some Marvel characters are more powerful than some DC characters. You are an idiot, and never make a valid point. I'm gonna let a soldier tell you what you need to do.
there you go with my punctuation cause you cant point out a more valid argument. the Slade vs Ben fight please dont go there again you made yourself a fool once, Slade vs Venom, pal venom is at the most class fifty and slade has taken out bigger guns then that and has the tech to take venom out too thanks. Hand me my butt? You never have handed me anything pal. Maybe you have in your own fantasy world were your always right which is what you probably say to yourself in the morning. You havent handed me my butt ONCE in here so please dont start with that, and i dont own a scanner thanks and i dont have to resort to stupid insults on your level either i dont go cussing people out like you, you five year old, and galactus can destroy the galaxy with ease? Who told you this, at full power yes which we havent seen him at. He cant beat eternity at his normal power level and the antimonitor took on a guy who would whipe his butt with galactus only reason he lost is cause other powerful beings not as powerful as the spectre but still powerful, they came at him with the strongest attacks and he was to weak to take them on if the spectre hadent fought him he would have defeated the other beings he was killed by thats a plain fact, first he has to fight the spectre who is unbelievably powerful HE WON BY THE WAY, then he has to deal with precrisis darkseid with out even any rest from his previous battle i mean if you think any character can just come out of a fight with the spectre fresy is a daizy you know nothing.
Oh my gosh! It's a miracle! You actually punctuated a full sentence!
*hears Hallelujiah chorus*
Also, I don't really need to save my insults. However, I think I will, because it seems that the more you post, the dumber you sound. You are quite literally the only one on a forum of hundreds of people that has never given any scans or backup to your argument. You just claim it. I'm going to make my final point, then I'm reporting you to the mods. I'm not reporting the thread. I'm reporting you. Understand the difference.
1. You can't tell the difference between jobbing and full potential.
2. You constantly make claims that you can't back up.
3. You hound people from thread to thread, pissing them off and acting like a chicken with it's head cut off.
4. You constantly quote instances of SvFL when it is clearly against the rules to do so.
5. You constantly quote instances of Plot Induced Stupidity, when it is clearly against the rules to do so.
6. Even when people have proven you wrong, you still try to make a stupid argument for your case because you cannot admit that you can't prove your point.
7. You have the basic fanboy language. You treat your favorite characters like they are gods, and that they cannot be beaten.
That's the most that I have at this moment. I'm done with dealing with your crap. I'm reporting you to the mods right now. Also, you deserve THIS!
yeah right EVERYTHING i say is PIS but whatever you say is pure comic truth thats a lame excuse dont you think? Slade sure did do PIS but not in the instences i mentioned he did do those things to fast beings like flash 3 OR MORE TIMES GET OVER IT. He's taken out guys better then ben more then once alot more then once GET OVER IT TOO. i dont really care if you dont like how i post your just upset cause i come and refute your claims with better knowledge then you. You dont think that its PIS that juggs was thrashed by venom when other beings have not been shown to be able to who are stronger then venom he's class 50 tops juggs is over class 100 thank you. I dont care if you say those things were PIS i never used Identity crisis as an excuse for slade winning. The feats he did were more then once and thus not PIS even if you say they were get over it, shouldnt i say that its PIS that venom is so much stronger then he use to be, he is a spiderman foe in one comic then the next he is a world threat come on dude.
Originally posted by Marcus4600
Oh my gosh! It's a miracle! You actually punctuated a full sentence!*hears Hallelujiah chorus*
Also, I don't really need to save my insults. However, I think I will, because it seems that the more you post, the dumber you sound. You are quite literally the only one on a forum of hundreds of people that has never given any scans or backup to your argument. You just claim it. I'm going to make my final point, then I'm reporting you to the mods. I'm not reporting the thread. I'm reporting you. Understand the difference.
1. You can't tell the difference between jobbing and full potential.
2. You constantly make claims that you can't back up.
3. You hound people from thread to thread, pissing them off and acting like a chicken with it's head cut off.
4. You constantly quote instances of SvFL when it is clearly against the rules to do so.
5. You constantly quote instances of Plot Induced Stupidity, when it is clearly against the rules to do so.
6. Even when people have proven you wrong, you still try to make a stupid argument for your case because you cannot admit that you can't prove your point.
7. You have the basic fanboy language. You treat your favorite characters like they are gods, and that they cannot be beaten.That's the most that I have at this moment. I'm done with dealing with your crap. I'm reporting you to the mods right now. Also, you deserve THIS!
😆 😆 , exactly 👆.
Originally posted by Marcus4600😆 😆 😆
This isn't about Slade, or Venom, or anything like that. You go around, being a jerk to anyone with a different opinion, and even when a DC character is outclassed, you still try to make a dumb argument. I don't care about what Marvel comics you own. I own a book on how to learn Biblical Greek. It doesn't mean that I don't hate it.
I think the fact of me being brilliant compared to you is kinda obvious at this point, considering I can actually spell the word.
Ever heard of punctuation? Evidently not, considering you can't even type. I've seen monkeys that can type better than you.
You ever heard of a jobber? That's what Slade is. He has jobber written all over him. I sincerely doubt he can tag Superman flying at full speed.
The anti-monitor thing? Galactus can destroy galaxies with ease. I doubt blowing up the Anti-Monitor would be too much out of his reach.
I don't bring comic book knowledge here? I guarantee that more than fifteen people can vouch that I have put scans and information on these pages, but you have provided none. Practice what you preach, dick.
Once again, I have handed you your ass. I always have handed you your ass, and I always will hand you your ass. You go around these forums giving people who are educated and have proof a lot of shit because their opinion differs than you. You attack Marvel fans all of the time for no reason, and even though you claim to own Marvel comics, you still can't grasp reality that some Marvel characters are more powerful than some DC characters. You are an idiot, and never make a valid point. I'm gonna let a soldier tell you what you need to do.
Originally posted by leonidas
by that reasoning, you could have listed any one of a bunch of characters pre-crisis who gave spectre trouble. why harp on AM?and who said he's infallible? ages ago azmodeus battled spectre to a stalemate. by your reasoning, his whole existence has been a failure. after all, evil still exists and god granted him power to wipe it out. did/does god not want him to succeed? that fact alone proves he is fallible. throughout his history others have defied or stood up to him -- shaitan, kulak, beltane to name just a couple. hell, in one role, even psycho-pirate caused him some trouble! we know he can be harmed or defeated by sufficient magical powers or weapons.
Youre quite right. I didnt need to focus on the AM battle to highlight his Spectre being far from unstoppable and infallible when acting in accordance with gods will. However its an incident thats well documented and well known to most forum members allowing for easy reference during the course of this debate. Said event also happens to have been the reason behind Spectres depowerment and so is conclusive evidence that a Spectre with jurisdiction can and has failed in his duty.
Originally posted by leonidas
if god wills him to wipe out all evil, do you think he couldn't? had it really been god's wish to have spectre kill or destroy AM do you think he would have been unable to? this is why over the years writers have often had such a hard time dealing with the character.
People seem to be under the assumption that a Spectre with jurisdiction equates to God, that if Spectre is acting in accordance to his mission, that he can beat any and everything. That has never been shown to be the case. God doesnt order Spectre to take out certain enemies and power him up to ENSURE that he can. Where has that ever been shown or stated? Spectre is put on a general mission, (be it to combat supernatural forces that threaten all life, or to maintain a cosmic balance) and he is given abilities sufficient to enable him to carry out his mission as long as he makes the right decisions and acts wisely. Spectre then makes his own decisions about how best to carry out his God given mission.
The former assumption indicates an invincible, infallible Spectre which has never been shown on panel and is therefore incorrect. The latter is a Spectre that while he has abilities sufficient to carry out Gods will successfully, he is not omnipotent and will not win in all cases there is a margin for error, a possibility of failure and it all depends on him acting wisely and employing his abilities with care.
Spectres Pre Crisis mission was to battle all evil on Earth
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=3/8506130294.jpg&s=x10
As such battling evil forces that threaten the planet is Spectre with jurisdiction. Spectre fighting Anti Monitor was in accordance with Gods will. He was punished by God however for not preventing the Crisis in the first place as stated by Juntais sources. My scans also say that he was punished for not having a significant impact in Crisis. If you take those reasons together and look at what happened on panel Spectre didnt get involved until the very end many lives were lost before that point and even after his intervention lives were lost. As per Juntais sources if Spectre was to tackle Anti Monitor prior to him amassing most of the power of a multiverse then he probably would have succeeded. (He was after all punished by God for not preventing Crisis suggesting that God did indeed give him power enough to do so had he acted in time) That all fits in perfectly with what i was saying. A Spectre with jurisdiction is not unbeatable, he is not powered up by God to take out specific enemies. He is given a powerset and put on a mission. Spectre then makes decisions on how best to adhere to his mission using those god given abilities. He can be wrong, he can make mistakes. Crisis illustrated this perfectly. For whatever reasons Spectre left it very late to intervene in Crisis and it seems by the time he did Anti Monitor was of a power level beyond Spectres power set to outright defeat in a confrontation. Spectres Pre Crisis mission was to vanquish evil forces that threatened Earth, Anti Monitor was within his jurisdiction. Thats why threads like Spectre ordered by God to take down so and so are just a waste of time. That doesnt happen.
Originally posted by leonidas
i think you're highlighting the wrong thing. what we should be asking is what does it say about the spectre/god relationship that spectre DID struggle with AM and these others. the spectre character has gone through a LOT of changes over the years, including a pre-crisis depowering before he was set upon his mission to maintain a cosmic balance. in THAT regard he did fail. but why would god allow this?
I believe ive already dealt with this. God presumably knew what the outcome of Crisis was going to be.
Originally posted by leonidas
essentially you're saying his battle with am shows he's not 'invincible'. you didn't need THAT battle to show that. jun's point (i think) is that if god truly IS acting through spectre (which i believe he has been shown to do in more recent incarnations) then he truly is invincible -- unless you're going to say an enemy could overcome god. since god certainly could have willed am's defeat, the question becomes why did god let it reach the point it did?
Theres nothing conclusive to show that. The Spectre is empowered by God, but i dont believe God acts directly through the Spectre as that would mean that God himself is infallible which isnt something i or anyone i presume are willing to consider. The Spectre is an agent of God, a being empowered by God but it isnt God manifest in creation. Days of Vengeance should dismiss such a notion from the minds of anyone with common sense.
we seem to agree on almost all points -- i certainly never said spectre is infallible or invincible. i was under the impression that god HAS worked through him though, at certain points -- ie, a 'special' case. if god WAS acting specifically through him, he WOULD be invincible. unless again, you're saying god can be thwarted. but i may be wrong -- i can't think of an instance where god specifically worked through him. maybe someone else knows of a time?
before crisis, a different definition of his task was keeping 'cosmic balance'. in that regard he DID fail miserably. if god knew the outcome, then he knew spectre would eventually prevail, or at least allow others the opportunity to prevail. presumably, he woudl also have KNOWN spectre was DESTINED to fail, so why bother having him do his job to begin with??
in any event, it is clear he erred in waiting too long to confront AM, but in the end he WAS ultimately responsible for AM's defeat, even though he had help.
he failed to keep the balance and was depowered and punished.
i'm not even sure what we were disagreeing about to begin with . . . 😮
Spectre's mission from God was retconned in Ostrander and Mandrake's run. To "To understand why people choose the paths they take." That's the problem with those old bios, they don't take retcons into effect. Spectre doesn't directly solve every problem himself, but it's still his judgement. It would be pretty dumb if Anti-monitor appeared and Spectre just killed him outright. Wouldn't it?
You'll notice even against Parallax, Spectre made him use his energy, went off panel, and let the heros do it. Then said "Judgement is satisfied.". Then poured enough energy into Damage to remake the universe.
Spectre played his part. Just as he did against the Anti-Monitor.
He's not invinvible or infallible. He's the next best thing. He's the mightiest manifest character in DC, and it's been proven time and time again.
Needless to say, current Spectre is far mightier than Pre-Crisis Spectre was, and has hosts of more powers available ever since Ostrander reinvented the character.
Originally posted by leonidas
we seem to agree on almost all points -- i certainly never said spectre is infallible or invincible. i was under the impression that god HAS worked through him though, at certain points -- ie, a 'special' case. if god WAS acting specifically through him, he WOULD be invincible. unless again, you're saying god can be thwarted. but i may be wrong -- i can't think of an instance where god specifically worked through him. maybe someone else knows of a time?before crisis, a different definition of his task was keeping 'cosmic balance'. in that regard he DID fail miserably. if god knew the outcome, then he knew spectre would eventually prevail, or at least allow others the opportunity to prevail. presumably, he woudl also have KNOWN spectre was DESTINED to fail, so why bother having him do his job to begin with??
in any event, it is clear he erred in waiting too long to confront AM, but in the end he WAS ultimately responsible for AM's defeat, even though he had help.
he failed to keep the balance and was depowered and punished.
i'm not even sure what we were disagreeing about to begin with . . . 😮
I was trying to sort out what i believe to be a misconception of a Spectre with jurisdiction being invincible. Thats all. Its like people believed that equated to God telling Spectre to go out and perform a specific task and powered him up to the point where he couldnt fail at that appointed task. That really isnt the case.
Spectre carrys out Gods will, he's the embodiment of Gods wrath, but it isnt God manifest. God doesnt work directly through Spectre. He empowers him. Spectre is placed on mission, a set of guidelines to adhere to and a set of goals to accomplish and he makes his own decisions about how to adhere to said mission. Spectres pre-crisis mission was to fight evil forces. Therefore Spectre fighting Anti Monitor and anything evil which threatened life are examples of Spectre with jurisdiction. Juntai was trying to say Spectre has to go into "cast judgement mode" before any of us could consider Spectre any instance to be him acting with jurisdiction. That is wrong ❌ We have been told many a time what his mission was and Spectre acting in accordance with that mission is a Spectre with jurisdiction. Juntai was trying to say that a Spectre with jurisdiction can only be defeated by God.
A Spectre with jurisdiction has conclusively been shown on panel to not be omnipotent (he required the aid of the assembled mystics in crisis to depower AM) and is not invincible. Thats the only point i was trying to make and you said you think you sided with Juntai but now youre saying we seem to be agreeing which has left me very confused lol.
