DE Luke Skywalker vs. Yoda & Revan

1.It's better than what Yoda did. Also, Luke had to guide it down to the surface. Engines aren't going to control themselves, considering they lost control of it before Luke got back control of the SD.

2.The AT-AT. It destorys all the missles the hail fire droid is launching, and while doing that , it fires it's chin guns and destorys the hailfire droid. Point?

3. They have an army enough to keep the Rebels pinned down, and even the Rebels were having trouble against them. Are you going to say that just because Leia near the end of DE, saying "Thousands of warriors are dying!" and that warriors are not shown dying, that there are no 'thousands of warriors'?

4.Yes, it does. The battle droids Yoda fought were weaker, outdated models. You could basically sneak up right behind them and they'd still concentrate on firing at their main target(s).

And did you think the Imperial Loyalists or Renegades, wouldnt have captured the Imperial first and then leave it undefended? Yeah right...

5. They didn't get to be Jedi Masters or one of Palpatine's Hand's just by sitting around and doing nothing. Hell, Jerec even had a technique that blinds his opponents to the Force, making them unable to use the Force at all and you're saying he's weak? Remind me not to ask you who's weak and who's strong in the SW Universe, Nai. 🙄

And it also says that they were "able to feed on the life energy of others and accumlating Force energy in there own bodies". And that "they leanred to redirect this accumalated power in many ways- either as a weapon or in manipulation of molecular structures". And that he 'never allowed them to ascend to HIS level but they became powerful Dark Side magicians in their own right". Uh yeah, Palpatine's Sith trained Assassins are a hell of a lot more powerful than an average Dark Jedi, from what Ive read.

6.Oh, YOU SAY he was there for weeks and months, and don't have proof to back it up besides your own opinion. That makes you better than me? And what do I care that YOU SAY Leia was using BM and keep yelling it out and yet have no proof that says she even KNOWS BM. Yeah, real intelligent there, Nai.

And what makes you think your word is better than mine? You've contradicted yourself saying about Leia using BM and keep screaming it in every post, then say it was just a guess. Then, you say the writer says something about Leia during Palpatine's second duel with Luke, and yet there is nothing even MENTIONING her on that same page.

And so you're saying that Yoda can take DE Sidious down? Funny, I remember Yoda in the ROTS Novel admitting that he couldn't even take down ROTS Sidious, who is weaker than both ROTJ and DE Sidious. Again, you make your stupidity known.

You are an idiot, Nai. You don't need to keep proving it to everyone.

7.No, logic. I remeber a few pages back, Palpatine reaching for Leia and then getting his hand being fried. You are saying that that glow isn't the Lightside, when it was protecting her and her unborn son only a few pages before? Atleast I have points to my argument, Nai. And where does she close her eyes, tell me? All we do is see her stand around. The only time she closes her eyes, is when they are trying to turn Palpatine's Force Storm against himself. Your Point: Moot.

8.Touche, but that still doesn't mean that Luke couldn't have learned more in the time it took from Leia and the others to go to Calamari, then to get back to Pinnacle Base.Which would be maybe a 3-4 days maybe even 5, to get to Calamari from Byss.And then 2 days or so to get to back to Pinnacle Base from Calamari

9.How long did he stay then, Nai? Tell me, does it say so in the comic?

And Luke hasn't even went up against the old Sidious yet, how do you expect him to know a weakness against a new, more powerful Sidious?

How dumb can YOUR assumption get? You don't even have PROOF to show Leia was even helping during the fight. ALl you have is 'a white aura' which can mean anything. It can mean she was surrounded by the Lightside of the Force, considering she was the only Lightside thing on that ship. And yes, Luke got knocked down, but he got up didn't he? I still don't where you're going with this. All you have is an unsupported assumption on YOUR part to work with.

10.Yes, there is. It could easily have been the Lightside of the Force surrounding her with that 'white aura'. You keep babbling about BM and her helping him during the duel, yet don't have any proof to prove your claim. The only time Leia is even mentioned helping him is after the duel, when they are about to turn the Force Storm against Palpatine. THAT IS IT. When you find some REAL proof to show me that your theory is right, let me know. Until then, you're full of shit.

11.Have a look at the next page? See anything mentioning Leia helping him, before the Force Storm? No. Meaning that she wasn't doing anything to help him, up until the Force Storm.

12.Leia isn't even mentioned helping Luke in the duel before the Force Storm, and people think that a 'white aura' means she's doing it? Just another unsupported assumption.

13. They don't go from Nar Shaadaa to Calamari. They go to Byss, and (after the confrontation with the Emperor) THEN go to Calamari and then go back to Pinnacle Base. And considering Calamari is VERY far from Byss(I just looked at the Galaxy Map in my Unifying Force book, it's half way across the galaxy from Byss and maybe more.), Calamari is beyond the outer rim, so that'd take maybe 3-4, or maybe even 5, days, to get to Calamari from Byss. Then 2 days to get back to Pinnacle Base,Which means Luke had enough time to get more training and learn more knowledge to get more powerful and enough to study the Clone Emperor's weaknesses, now that he can actually somewhat study the Clone Emperor.

Originally posted by Spartan ll
1.It's better than what Yoda did. Also, Luke had to guide it down to the surface. Engines aren't going to control themselves, considering they lost control of it before Luke got back control of the SD.

Yes, of course. Reactivating the engines of a starship and then land it is "better" than collapsing a mountain top, causing an avalanche that burries some nice amount of droids or lift an entire temple up which was carved inside a mountain (so million tons of stone, rock and crystal). Yeah.

2.The AT-AT. It destorys all the missles the hail fire droid is launching, and while doing that , it fires it's chin guns and destorys the hailfire droid. Point?

Oh simply forget it. The point was that Yoda could have done to the AT-AT what Luke did.

3. They have an army enough to keep the Rebels pinned down, and even the Rebels were having trouble against them. Are you going to say that just because Leia near the end of DE, saying "Thousands of warriors are dying!" and that warriors are not shown dying, that there are no 'thousands of warriors'?

Yes. Can it be that you are totally unable to comprehend some comics. There is a full scale battle happening on the planet between two Imperial factions when Han and Leia arrive. The Rebels are just "pinned down" there because they just crashed their stardestroyer - they aren't "pinned down" there by some scarvengers.
And no: I say that the Rebels were just attack by that few enemy forces because it just shows them being attacked by that small enemy force while you try to create some enemies which obviously didn't even exist.

4.Yes, it does. The battle droids Yoda fought were weaker, outdated models. You could basically sneak up right behind them and they'd still concentrate on firing at their main target(s).

Luke destroyed 3, Yoda destroyed an army and Luke twelve years after DE had some considerable problem to take out one of the droids Yoda was fighting. You were saying ?

And did you think the Imperial Loyalists or Renegades, wouldnt have captured the Imperial first and then leave it undefended? Yeah right...

WTF are you talking about. The Imperial Palace was a freaking ruin and the battles were happening outside of the Imperial City as we all could perfectly see. So don't try to make stuff up.

5. They didn't get to be Jedi Masters or one of Palpatine's Hand's just by sitting around and doing nothing. Hell, Jerec even had a technique that blinds his opponents to the Force, making them unable to use the Force at all and you're saying he's weak? Remind me not to ask you who's weak and who's strong in the SW Universe, Nai. 🙄

Trying to be funny ? I just said that the Dark Jedi were obviously not as strong as the original Sith - otherwise Vader wouldn't have been the second most powerful guy in the Empire. The point is that the secrets of the Sith were only given to Sidious own apprentices - not to the other "students" he had.

And it also says that they were "able to feed on the life energy of others and accumlating Force energy in there own bodies". And that "they leanred to redirect this accumalated power in many ways- either as a weapon or in manipulation of molecular structures". And that he 'never allowed them to ascend to HIS level but they became powerful Dark Side magicians in their own right". Uh yeah, Palpatine's Sith trained Assassins are a hell of a lot more powerful than an average Dark Jedi, from what Ive read.

Uh...force drain. Never seen before...

6.Oh, YOU SAY he was there for weeks and months, and don't have proof to back it up besides your own opinion. That makes you better than me? And what do I care that YOU SAY Leia was using BM and keep yelling it out and yet have no proof that says she even KNOWS BM. Yeah, real intelligent there, Nai.

Did you actually read my post, idiot ?
I've presented you quite some proof why the Millinium Falcon would have needed weeks to travel to Bespin (exact speed of the Falcon without hyperdrive, possible distance between two planets) and you presented - nothing. Oh yeah. Thanks.
And again: She used some technique to aid Luke. Or to be more simple to fit the capacity of your two brain cells: Leia meditated to support Luke in battle. You might call that whatever you want.

And what makes you think your word is better than mine? You've contradicted yourself saying about Leia using BM and keep screaming it in every post, then say it was just a guess. Then, you say the writer says something about Leia during Palpatine's second duel with Luke, and yet there is nothing even MENTIONING her on that same page.

You are really the pinnacle of idiocy, correct ?
You were arguing that Leia didn't use the force at all. I was just arguing that because the narrator precisely tells us what she does "unlocking unexpeted resources in Luke". See:

And so you're saying that Yoda can take DE Sidious down? Funny, I remember Yoda in the ROTS Novel admitting that he couldn't even take down ROTS Sidious, who is weaker than both ROTJ and DE Sidious. Again, you make your stupidity known.

You are an idiot, Nai. You don't need to keep proving it to everyone.

You are the only idiot here. Where did I say Yoda can take down DE Sidious ? I just said I don't care if Yoda can do it or not because Luke is unable to do it, meaning if both opponents are unable to take person number 3 down in a direct confrontation on their own it's just impossible to create an argument out of that fact. It's like saying Han Solo > Lando Calrissian because they both can't beat Darth Vader in a lightsaber duel. Makes much sense, doesn't it ?

7.No, logic. I remeber a few pages back, Palpatine reaching for Leia and then getting his hand being fried. You are saying that that glow isn't the Lightside, when it was protecting her and her unborn son only a few pages before? Atleast I have points to my argument, Nai. And where does she close her eyes, tell me? All we do is see her stand around. The only time she closes her eyes, is when they are trying to turn Palpatine's Force Storm against himself. Your Point: Moot.

Oh, yes. What great "points" you have. So Leia is not closing her eyes and focusing ? Damn. What does she do here (on the page before the duel happens):

Ups. Looks like she's closing her eyes in the first picture and looks rather concentrated in the second. Doesn't she ?

And then ?

Oh my. Look how she has the nice glow surrounding her. That should be the same that "protected" her from Sidious when he touched her - which wasn't even done at will, much less with some glow surrounding her. Even more funny that there is no need to use the light side for self defence in this situation. Also you can spot the background getting brighter as if somebody is pushing Sidious Dark Side powers back using the force. Could that be Leia perhabs ? And it's nice how she isn't moving...

And because was capable of doing that on his own he later says this:

Ah...WTF ?

8.Touche, but that still doesn't mean that Luke couldn't have learned more in the time it took from Leia and the others to go to Calamari, then to get back to Pinnacle Base.Which would be maybe a 3-4 days maybe even 5, to get to Calamari from Byss.And then 2 days or so to get to back to Pinnacle Base from Calamari

The Falcon was able to cross the 40,000 lightyears from Tantooine to Alderaan in 7 hours accourding to ANH which is the highest level of canon. Since the Galaxy is approx. 100,000 lightyears wide there isn't a single place that the Falcon can't reach in the matter of one day.

9.How long did he stay then, Nai? Tell me, does it say so in the comic?

The only thing that does matter here is that there was obviously far more time passing between the first meeting of Luke and the Emperor and their first duel, and then the first duel and the second duel.

And Luke hasn't even went up against the old Sidious yet, how do you expect him to know a weakness against a new, more powerful Sidious?

He studied under Sidious for a considerable amount of time without spotting "weaknesses" but all over a sudden - in the matter of seconds - he finds said weaknesses. And so great weaknesses that he suddenly is able to defeat the Emperor on his own. Yes ? Oh wait:

Why does he tell the Emperor then that the way of the Jedi is "not a solitary one" while you can see Leia focusing in the back ground. This is so obvious that nailing it on your forehead would be the only possible way to make it more obvious.

And yes...maybe Leia used "force stoppage" because she was in desperate need to take a leak but why don't we assume she did the only reasonable thing which is helping Luke ? For the rest of your complete and utter nonsens just see above.

for the last time Spartan, Leia was even STATED to have used elementary Battle Meditation. And I would say Luke served the emperor for a few months. It would make no sense for him to serve for a few weeks and learn so much from him, including the dark side compendium, so a few months sounds plausible.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes, of course. Reactivating the engines of a starship and then land it is "better" than collapsing a mountain top, causing an avalanche that burries some nice amount of droids or lift an entire temple up which was carved inside a mountain (so million tons of stone, rock and crystal). Yeah.

Yes. Can it be that you are totally unable to comprehend some comics. There is a full scale battle happening on the planet between two Imperial factions when Han and Leia arrive. The Rebels are just "pinned down" there because they just crashed their stardestroyer - they aren't "pinned down" there by some scarvengers.
And no: I say that the Rebels were just attack by that few enemy forces because [b]it just shows them being attacked by that small enemy force while you try to create some enemies which obviously didn't even exist.

Luke destroyed 3, Yoda destroyed an army and Luke twelve years after DE had some considerable problem to take out one of the droids Yoda was fighting. You were saying ?

All Yoda fought were droidekas who didn't even have their shield generators activated, of course they would be destoryed easily. 🙄 Your point:Moot.

WTF are you talking about. The Imperial Palace was a freaking ruin and the battles were happening outside of the Imperial City as we all could perfectly see. So don't try to make stuff up.

Trying to be funny ? I just said that the Dark Jedi were obviously not as strong as the original Sith - otherwise Vader wouldn't have been the second most powerful guy in the Empire. The point is that the secrets of the Sith were only given to Sidious own apprentices - not to the other "students" he had.

Uh...force drain. Never seen before...

Did you actually read my post, idiot ?
I've presented you quite some proof why the Millinium Falcon would have needed weeks to travel to Bespin (exact speed of the Falcon without hyperdrive, possible distance between two planets) and you presented - nothing. Oh yeah. Thanks.
And again: She used some technique to aid Luke. Or to be more simple to fit the capacity of your two brain cells: Leia meditated to support Luke in battle. You might call that whatever you want.

You are really the pinnacle of idiocy, correct ?
You were arguing that Leia didn't use the force at all. I was just arguing that because the narrator precisely tells us what she does "unlocking unexpeted resources in Luke". See:

You are the only idiot here. Where did I say Yoda can take down DE Sidious ? I just said I don't care if Yoda can do it or not because Luke is unable to do it, meaning if both opponents are unable to take person number 3 down in a direct confrontation on their own it's just impossible to create an argument out of that fact. It's like saying Han Solo > Lando Calrissian because they both can't beat Darth Vader in a lightsaber duel. Makes much sense, doesn't it ?

Oh, yes. What great "points" you have. So Leia is not closing her eyes and focusing ? Damn. What does she do here (on the page before the duel happens)

Ups. Looks like she's closing her eyes in the first picture and looks rather concentrated in the second. Doesn't she ?

Notice something? HER EYES ARE OPEN!
And on the next page, you can't even make out of her eyes are open or not. Don't bullshit me, Nai.

And then ?

Oh my. Look how she has the nice glow surrounding her. That should be the same that "protected" her from Sidious when he touched her - which wasn't even done at will, much less with some glow surrounding her. Even more funny that there is no need to use the light side for self defence in this situation. Also you can spot the background getting brighter as if somebody is pushing Sidious Dark Side powers back using the force. Could that be Leia perhabs ? And it's nice how she isn't moving...

And because was capable of doing that on his own he later says this:

Ah...WTF ?

The Falcon was able to cross the 40,000 lightyears from Tantooine to Alderaan in 7 hours accourding to ANH which is the highest level of canon. Since the Galaxy is approx. 100,000 lightyears wide there isn't a single place that the Falcon can't reach in the matter of one day.

The only thing that does matter here is that there was obviously far more time passing between the first meeting of Luke and the Emperor and their first duel, and then the first duel and the second duel.

He studied under Sidious for a considerable amount of time without spotting "weaknesses" but all over a sudden - in the matter of seconds - he finds said weaknesses. And so great weaknesses that he suddenly is able to defeat the Emperor on his own. Yes ? Oh wait:

Why does he tell the Emperor then that the way of the Jedi is "not a solitary one" while you can see Leia focusing in the back ground. This is so obvious that nailing it on your forehead would be the only possible way to make it more obvious.

And yes...maybe Leia used "force stoppage" because she was in desperate need to take a leak but why don't we assume she did the only reasonable thing which is helping Luke ? For the rest of your complete and utter nonsens just see above.

She isn't focusing on ANYTHING! She doesn't even have her eyes closed! And it's impossible for her to use BM, even IF she knows it. It only works on armies and big groups of people, not just one person, it even says so in TOTJ and KOTOR.

That, or Luke found the weakness of the Emperor(Which HE DID! He even says so in the comic.) and used it to his advantage.

Originally posted by Spartan ll
It is, considering he had to use the Force to guide it WITH SOME HELP from the engines. And las I stated before, the Databank says one Stardestoryer is the size of a city.

Wow. Anakin did the same in ROTS. Anakin > Yoda + Revan ?

No, he couldn't. Yoda had trouble with a Hailfire droid, and a hailfire is weaker than an AT-AT, what makes you think he could take an AT-AT down if he couldn't destory a hailfire?

Where did Yoda have problems ? And considering he could lift the remains of a temple up I don't see why he should have problems to push an AT-AT down.

Funny, considering Leia and Han have to destory an AT-AT just to get to the Rebels. Your point:Moot.

Funny how they were flying through the battle outside the city while we have no indication of combat happen anywere close to the rebels who are standing around in the middle of some open field. Way to behave during a battle...
Your observation: Flawed.

First of all, the droideka was modified that way it could roll WITH it's shields up, even Yoda would have had trouble with a droideka like that.

Yes. Because Droideka shields can be disable by pushing them into a wall overloading the shields. I was merely talking about the fact that somebody who has problems with taking one droid done is most likely not able to deal with an entire armies of them. Or is the force now stopped by shields ?

All Yoda fought were droidekas who didn't even have their shield generators activated, of course they would be destoryed easily. 🙄 Your point:Moot.

Yes. This is why Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon had to run away from two of them. Your grasp on the facts: Non-existant.

Funny, considering the Han said "Luke put it down right in the middle of the action." Your point: Moot.

Funny how the action happens outside of the city and Luke landed inside the city. So the "middle of the action" is the middle of the forces fighting around the city and not literary the "middle of the ongoing battle".

The information in DE says differently. They were Sith tained(Sedriss, his dark side minion, the name for him escapes me) Hell, even Kam Solusar says he was one of the Sith trained Assassins when referring to him, and he was taught in some of the ways of the Sith.

And they were all below Vader hence I don't see were this is compareable to Yoda fighting the likes of Dooku or the Emperor himself. Hell Kam manages to cut one of them down with the first strike in their lightsaber duel and Luke pwns Sedriss with a force push. While Sedriss himself is not capable to do anything better than a force grip. Sha and Mordi were taken down by Jem (almost untrained) and Leia with two lightsaber strikes. The rest was mawn down by Kam, Brand (crippled) and Rayf (also almost untrained). What great Sith training it must have been they received...lmao...

Read the article at the end of Dark Empire #1, it clearly says what I told you before.

Play KotoR. Again: "Uh...force drain. Never seen before."

Funny, considering it never EVER referrs to her helping Luke unti they turn Sidious' Force Storm against him. Without sufficien prooof, don't claim it. Idiot.

Aside of: Leia focusing, Leia glowing, the background changing and some sourcebooks claiming that Leia aided him with minor battle meditation. Who was the "idiot" here ? Oh yeah. You.

LMAO! That's when they try to destroy Sidious' Force Storm, NOT during the duel. You really need to stop lying.

Didn't you say that Leia was hardly doing anything and this was what I arguing ? Oh yeah.

Did I say you said Yoda could take down DE Sidious? No, I said that Yoda couldn't even take down Sidious' inferior form(ROTS). I even provided Yoda saying it in the ROTS Novel. Yoda couldn't even take down ROTJ Sidious', you saying he's more powerful than DE Luke is like saying Yoda could take down DE Sidious.

Yes. You did that, idiot. Not able to remember your own nonsense ? Luke was not able to defeat DE Sidious on his own and Yoda would have been able to defeat ROTS Sidious given that Yoda inferior Mace did put the Dark Lord on his ass. End of story.

And on the next page, you can't even make out of her eyes are open or not. Don't bullshit me, Nai.

You can't even tell she's closing her eyes, and second, nothing is even referring to her helping him, until they try take down the Force Storm. Again, don't bullshit me, Nai. Until you find proof and a quote stating that she was helping him BEFORE the Force Storm, your shit outta luck.

See above. Stop boring me.

Where did you get this info? Link?

What about simply watching ANH, watch when they start (time given) and then hear Han saying when they will arrive (time given). Can you stand so much math ? I doubt it but maybe you can surprise me.

How long did he study under the Emperor? The EXACT time?
He even stated he spotted Sidious' weakness(Fear) and even said so.
You think he couldn't use that against Sidious? Certainly better than your 'Leia was helping Luke!' theory, puls I actually have a quote to prove my theory, unlike you, who you only have a quote AFTER Leia helping Luke to destory the Force Storm. Your Point:Moot.

How in hell would Luke "use" the "fear" he just estimates the Emperor has (because he feels it - lol) in a lightsaber duel ? Make scary faces and scare the sh*t out of Sidious ?
And that's certainly better than my "Leia was helping Luke" theory since that's not a theory but A FACT.

And it's impossible for her to use BM, even IF she knows it. It only works on armies and big groups of people, not just one person, it even says so in TOTJ and KOTOR.

What bullshit. In TOTJ when Arca is using it on Onderon, it is shown that it increases the will of a single beat warrior and thereby enables him to defeat the opponent that was just about to kill him. So obviously it does work on single person. So thanks for your opinions again which is - as always - false.

That, or Luke found the weakness of the Emperor(Which HE DID! He even says so in the comic.) and used it to his advantage.

He estimates that the Emperor fears something yet that isn't something you can exploit in a lightsaber fight. And as Luke says that he has this feeling because he experienced the Dark Side himself and now was able to understand Vader, he must have felt the same during the first duel with the Emperor. So what ?

Nai, I'd like to comment and say that Palpatine's duel with Mace is a lot different from the one he had with Yoda. The only thing that allowed Mace to win was his Shatterpoint ability - and then you have to take into consideration that neither of them were using the Force (until Palpatine was in such a position that the attack was useless).

Palpatine > Mace in all Force powers - and can be considered his equal in pure swordsmanship. In an all out fight, Palpatine would have defeated Mace. You know it, and so do I. Hell, Mace had a hell of a time when Palpatine was on his ass, blasting him with Force lightning.

Now, imagine if Palpatine decided to use his superior Force powers when he would be in an equal position to Mace. Mace would have died.

That said, it is unknown if Yoda would've beaten Palpatine or not - given that the disarming scene was removed from the movie (it's not canon). For all we know, Palpatine knocked Yoda back - tucked the saber away - and opted for long ranged assaults. Regardless, Yoda was forced to flee because Palpatine was the smarter fighter - and Yoda was reckless.

And, I know you haven't stated it - but DE Palpatine would defeat him. He is more powerful than Yoda, arguably, by the OT - and so he is quite a bit above him in Dark Empire.

(this is to placate Spartan)

Originally posted by Escape81
Nai, I'd like to comment and say that Palpatine's duel with Mace is a lot different from the one he had with Yoda. The only thing that allowed Mace to win was his Shatterpoint ability - and then you have to take into consideration that neither of them were using the Force (until Palpatine was in such a position that the attack was useless).

Palpatine > Mace in all Force powers - and can be considered his equal in pure swordsmanship. In an all out fight, Palpatine would have defeated Mace. You know it, and so do I. Hell, Mace had a hell of a time when Palpatine was on his ass, blasting him with Force lightning.

Now, imagine if Palpatine decided to use his superior Force powers when he would be in an equal position to Mace. Mace would have died.

That said, it is unknown if Yoda would've beaten Palpatine or not - given that the disarming scene was removed from the movie (it's not canon). For all we know, Palpatine knocked Yoda back - tucked the saber away - and opted for long ranged assaults. Regardless, Yoda was forced to flee because Palpatine was the smarter fighter - and Yoda was reckless.

And, I know you haven't stated it - but DE Palpatine would defeat him. He is more powerful than Yoda, arguably, by the OT - and so he is quite a bit above him in Dark Empire.

(this is to placate Spartan)

Escape. What are you trying to do here ?

Sidious didn't also use his force powers during the fights with Luke in DE and still managed to disarm Luke once. When he uses his force powers right before the second duel, Luke is floored instantly by Sidious lightning, despite the fact that Luke had his lightsaber up already. So what ? Obviously Luke wasn't able to block force lightning - so how can he even hope to survive a full out fight against Sidious. Answer: He can't. Hence the "Luke defeated DE Sidious so he's > Yoda" is bullshit.

And sorry Escape. I told you multiple times why it doesn't make sense that Sidious would simply "knock Yoda back, tuck the lightsaber away and come up with range assaults". But just again:

1) He's never shown to use any offensive force powers while fighting
2) He only uses force powers after being disarmed
3) Yoda did still have his lightsaber in hand - the best Sidious could have done is launch a wave of force lightning against Yoda's lightsaber

Really. The script version were Yoda disarms him, then Sidious fires a wave of lightning and jumps of the Chancellors pod makes by far more sense then anything else you might suggest.

And now...if you put Yoda in that fights in DE instead of Luke (Sidious just using his lightsaber and no force powers): Do you really think Sidious could have beaten Yoda in sheer lightsaber combat ? With force powers used, he would most likely take Yoda down - but in a sheer lightsaber fight, Yoda would still defeat him more often than not.

So what can Luke - who's force powers are still rather limited in DE, and who's lightsaber skill is on par with Sidious at best - do to overcome Yoda and Revan together ? Even Yoda on his own would probably able to bring him down. Yoda and Revan combined is overkill...

Escape. What are you trying to do here ?

Explain to Spartan that you weren't being ridiculous and implying that Yoda is more powerful than Sidious (he's not), so he'd stop complaining about it.

Sidious didn't also use his force powers during the fights with Luke in DE and still managed to disarm Luke once.

Luke was inferior to him. Mace and Palpatine are equals in sheer lightsaber ability. Mace won due to his singularly unique Shatterpoint ability.

When he uses his force powers right before the second duel, Luke is floored instantly by Sidious lightning, despite the fact that Luke had his lightsaber up already. So what ?

So what ?

I think you're getting confused. I'm not arguing that Luke is equal to Sidious in anything as of Dark Empire (I think I've been agreeing with you thus far).

I'm saying that the fight between Palpatine and Mace would have most likely gone differently if Palpatine had brought his superior Force powers into play, instead of going into a straight lightsaber-to-lightsaber confrontation - and as I said - nothing indicates that Mace is the better swordsman. He is equal to Palpatine - and won due to his ability to sense Shatterpoints, and he was able to use Palpatine's fear against him.

Luke nor Yoda have either luxary.

Obviously Luke wasn't able to block force lightning - so how can he even hope to survive a full out fight against Sidious. Answer: He can't. Hence the "Luke defeated DE Sidious so he's > Yoda" is bullshit.

My point is, Luke has done more impressive things in his short time than Yoda has in 900 years. Yoda was unable to defeat Palpatine - who, in comparison, only had 60 years of experience compared to Yoda's 900. Luke has far more raw power than Yoda, and Yoda would certainly not be able to own Luke, even as of Dark Empire.

1) He's never shown to use any offensive force powers while fighting

I know. In his fight with Yoda, he was too busy trying to keep Yoda off of him. He couldn't risk opening himself up for a Force attack. With Luke, he was confident of victory.

2) He only uses force powers after being disarmed.

That wasn't shown in his fight with Yoda. Nai, the "disarming" scene was cut - it isn't canon. You can infer or think what you want. Doesn't make it a fact.

3) Yoda did still have his lightsaber in hand - the best Sidious could have done is launch a wave of force lightning against Yoda's lightsaber

Or Force pushed him against the podium - or bulled him into the side with a shove from his lightsaber. Especially when the last time we see them, they're in a saber lock.

Really. The script version were Yoda disarms him, then Sidious fires a wave of lightning and jumps of the Chancellors pod makes by far more sense then anything else you might suggest.

The script doesn't say that, Nai. The script shows Sidious being disarmed, then he attempts to launch Force lightning at Yoda - who bends it back. That's where your infamous line of "it appears that the Dark Lord is doomed" comes in. But then, Yoda jumps off the pod for no reason.

So, really, I don't see how that makes sense because Yoda was limited for time. If he had Sidious vulnerable, he would have killed him.

And now...if you put Yoda in that fights in DE instead of Luke (Sidious just using his lightsaber and no force powers): Do you really think Sidious could have beaten Yoda in sheer lightsaber combat ?

I think it is most certainly possible, yes. I'm sorry Nai, but now it does seem if you're trying to imply that Yoda is as powerful - or even moreso - than Sidious as of Dark Empire.

One Force Storm = dead Yoda - who doesn't seem to have the power to tackle one.

With force powers used, he would most likely take Yoda down - but in a sheer lightsaber fight, Yoda would still defeat him more often than not.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you (so don't bite my head off), but it seems to me that you're implying that Sidious would lose to Yoda in a sheer lightsaber match, but Sidious doesn't have a guarenteed victory in sheer Force powers.

Pretty poor logic to me. One can argue that Palpatine is as powerful - if not moreso - than Yoda as of ANH.

So, correction: Yoda would lose to Palpatine in a Force fight. A guy who can kill an entire batallion of Stormtroopers with a single attack (he can generate blasts that mortally wound Jedi) - and then a massive blast that can obliterate fleets.

PT Sidious can blast through the defenses provided by Yoda's lightsaber with no problem. DE Sidious would tear him up in a Force fight. I'll agree that Yoda's speed and agility would make him one hell of an opponent in a lightsaber fight, but he's screwed in a Force fight.

So what can Luke - who's force powers are still rather limited in DE, and who's lightsaber skill is on par with Sidious at best - do to overcome Yoda and Revan together ? Even Yoda on his own would probably able to bring him down. Yoda and Revan combined is overkill...

Yoda may - after an extremely difficult fight.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Escape. What are you trying to do here ?

Sidious didn't also use his force powers during the fights with Luke in DE and still managed to disarm Luke once. When he uses his force powers right before the second duel, Luke is floored instantly by Sidious lightning, despite the fact that Luke had his lightsaber up already. So what ? Obviously Luke wasn't able to block force lightning - so how can he even hope to survive a full out fight against Sidious. Answer: He can't. Hence the "Luke defeated DE Sidious so he's > Yoda" is bullshit.

And sorry Escape. I told you multiple times why it doesn't make sense that Sidious would simply "knock Yoda back, tuck the lightsaber away and come up with range assaults". But just again:

1) He's never shown to use any offensive force powers while fighting
2) He only uses force powers after being disarmed
3) Yoda did still have his lightsaber in hand - the best Sidious could have done is launch a wave of force lightning against Yoda's lightsaber

Really. The script version were Yoda disarms him, then Sidious fires a wave of lightning and jumps of the Chancellors pod makes by far more sense then anything else you might suggest.

And now...if you put Yoda in that fights in DE instead of Luke (Sidious just using his lightsaber and no force powers): Do you really think Sidious could have beaten Yoda in sheer lightsaber combat ? With force powers used, he would most likely take Yoda down - but in a sheer lightsaber fight, Yoda would still defeat him more often than not.

So what can Luke - who's force powers are still rather limited in DE, and who's lightsaber skill is on par with Sidious at best - do to overcome Yoda and Revan together ? Even Yoda on his own would probably able to bring him down. Yoda and Revan combined is overkill...

It is very unlikely that Yoda by ROTS could defeat Sidious by DE. If you recall, Sidious moved faster than the eye could see, but then again so could Yoda, so you'd have one hell of a fight. But this is a younger and more mobile Sidious so I would think he takes it more times than not in a pure saber duel.

Two more things

1. Why is it logical to assume that Sidious can and will use the force in a saber fight? You're saying if he did all of that nonsense against Mace, he would have won. I'm saying that because he engaged Mace in a saber duel, he automatically forfeited his superior force abilities, or was not able to use them against a powerful Jedi such as Mace. Same goes with his fight with Yoda. Sidious doesn't randomly use the force while he's in a saber battle, otherwise he would have been sliced.

2. What makes you think Sidious can pop a force storm when its 1 on 1? Yoda would have to be a good distance away for him to get swallowed by the force storm and Sidious walking away peacefully.

Isn't Sidious in a younger more agile body as of DE? I mean he may have been out of practise, but he was out of practise in ROTS too and he was still uber, pretty much on par with Yoda in saber ability. I'd say it's very likely that Sidious would take Yoda in a saber battle, and destroy him in a force battle.

1. Why is it logical to assume that Sidious can and will use the force in a saber fight? You're saying if he did all of that nonsense against Mace, he would have won. I'm saying that because he engaged Mace in a saber duel, he automatically forfeited his superior force abilities, or was not able to use them against a powerful Jedi such as Mace. Same goes with his fight with Yoda. Sidious doesn't randomly use the force while he's in a saber battle, otherwise he would have been sliced.

My only logical explanation is that Palpatine assumed that Anakin was coming (and wanted the fight to progress long enough where he could put himself in a position to force Anakin's ultimate decision), as he did contact Anakin through the Force - and reminded him that if he died, any hope to save Padme would be gone.

That, or he got cocky enough to assume that - hey - if he could take out three Master-level Jedi in less than thirty seconds, that he'd have no problem with Mace. Arrogance is one of Palpatine's defining characteristics, though I am personally assuming that the former occured - because Palpatine knew quite well of Mace's skill as a Jedi.

2. What makes you think Sidious can pop a force storm when its 1 on 1? Yoda would have to be a good distance away for him to get swallowed by the force storm and Sidious walking away peacefully.

No. When Luke defeated Palpatine in Dark Empire - Palpatine was the one defenseless (no lightsaber and his arm was amputated) and he still felt secure enough to launch one when he was less than a few feet away.

Luke and Leia were both present - and Luke moved just as fast as Yoda seems to do.

One could argue that Palpatine could disable Yoda (whether or not through his saber skills or through his superior Force powers), and then finish Yoda off by either skewering him or launching a Force Storm.

RotS Sidious was capable of knocking Yoda unconscious (and he did), and was also capable of overpowering Yoda's lightsaber, and disarmed him - with the Force (which he also did). Sidious grew in power and expertise in those twenty-some years, and I'd argue that he could replicate this feat - (much, much easier) and he'd beat Yoda.

Yoda'd be a problem simply due to his speed and agility. But Palpatine is, as of Dark Empire, much more powerful in the Force than Yoda.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
It is very unlikely that Yoda by ROTS could defeat Sidious by DE. If you recall, Sidious moved faster than the eye could see, but then again so could Yoda, so you'd have one hell of a fight. But this is a younger and more mobile Sidious so I would think he takes it more times than not in a pure saber duel.

How would Sidious even hit Yoda given that Depa Billaba (which bladework Mace considered to be above his own) + 2 other Jedi can't even touch him while he's dodging them without a weapon ?

1. Why is it logical to assume that Sidious can and will use the force in a saber fight? You're saying if he did all of that nonsense against Mace, he would have won. I'm saying that because he engaged Mace in a saber duel, he automatically forfeited his superior force abilities, or was not able to use them against a powerful Jedi such as Mace. Same goes with his fight with Yoda. Sidious doesn't randomly use the force while he's in a saber battle, otherwise he would have been sliced.

The point is that we see Dooku (for example) using force lightning while wielding his lightsaber (against Sora Bulq) or force grip (the ROTS duel) while Sidious doesn't use anything like that.

It might be due to his arrogance or he simply needs to focus more on the lightsaber action than Dooku (with his one-handed style). But sometimes it irks me when a clearly superior force user goes and faces the inferior force user but possibly better lightsaber combatant in a lightsaber fight. This is like throwing your rocket launcher away and go fighting your opponent with a knife because he doesn't have any other weapon. That might be nice for a Jedi Knight - but for a Sith Lord ?

2. What makes you think Sidious can pop a force storm when its 1 on 1? Yoda would have to be a good distance away for him to get swallowed by the force storm and Sidious walking away peacefully.

He can pop a force storm when he likes. Still the commentary in the last comic of the first DE series states that - once summoned - he's unable to control that sort of energy himself. So it's unlikely that he will use that in confrontation. Still...given that he increased his power by far he might simply deal with most people electrocuting them.

@Escape:
No. I didn't want to imply that Yoda can take DE Sidious in a force fight. I was just suggesting that Yoda will most likely take out Sidious or Luke (in their DE versions) when it's a sheer lightsaber duel due to his dodging abilities (see above) and mastery of almost unique forms of lightsaber handling (Trakata).

One thing I'll say:
The DE audiobook confirms that Leia is NOT helping Luke directly. What she's doing is clearing away the darkness of Sidious, clearing away the shadows. In other words: She made it even.
Thing was, both Palpatine and Luke went all out on eachother...the radiations of their power was so intense , it was killing people. They were even stated as 'equals, different as night and day.'
As of DE, Luke's surpassed most any Jedi who've ever lived. Just under Sidious, his powers increased threefold and he was capabe of things far surpassing Revan at least

Originally posted by Lightsnake
One thing I'll say:
The DE audiobook confirms that Leia is NOT helping Luke directly. What she's doing is clearing away the darkness of Sidious, clearing away the shadows. In other words: She made it even.
Thing was, both Palpatine and Luke went all out on eachother...the radiations of their power was so intense , it was killing people. They were even stated as 'equals, different as night and day.'

How is "making the fight equal" not helping Luke, when it was unequal in favor of Sidious before, Lightsnake. That doesn't make sense.

In the audio book, it says Leia was purely a spectator. What she was doing was blocking the darkness the Emperor's presence created.

By this point, Luke's powers are already incredible with the saber and the force

Originally posted by Borbarad
How would Sidious even hit Yoda given that Depa Billaba (which bladework Mace considered to be above his own) + 2 other Jedi can't even touch him while he's dodging them without a weapon ?

The point is that we see Dooku (for example) using force lightning while wielding his lightsaber (against Sora Bulq) or force grip (the ROTS duel) while Sidious doesn't use anything like that.

@Escape:
No. I didn't want to imply that Yoda can take DE Sidious in a force fight. I was just suggesting that Yoda will most likely take out Sidious or Luke (in their DE versions) when it's a sheer lightsaber duel due to his dodging abilities (see above) and mastery of almost unique forms of lightsaber handling (Trakata).

I find it unlikely that by Luke or Sidious by DE, couldn't take Yoda. By DE the speed of Sidious and Luke are unlike anything Yoda has ever dealt with.

Hmm. I kinda get what Nai is saying. Yoda's experience, speed, and agility would make him one hell of a problem. He pulled circles around Dooku in Attack of the Clones - and he was able to dodge those three Jedi in Shadow Hunter. But, Nai, in Revenge of the Sith, we saw that Sidious was easily on par with Yoda in terms of speed and agility - and he's the only one to date that has done that.

I'd say that Sidious could also have performed quite well against those three Jedi - in terms of evading them.

Yeah, Sidious's sheer speed and agility by DE is rather amazing.

Originally posted by Escape81
Hmm. I kinda get what Nai is saying. Yoda's experience, speed, and agility would make him one hell of a problem. He pulled circles around Dooku in Attack of the Clones - and he was able to dodge those three Jedi in Shadow Hunter. But, Nai, in Revenge of the Sith, we saw that Sidious was easily on par with Yoda in terms of speed and agility - and he's the only one to date that has done that.

I'd say that Sidious could also have performed quite well against those three Jedi - in terms of evading them.

Sidious is not on par with Yoda when it comes to speed and agility, Escape. Yoda is still jumping around like a mad muppet during their duel , while Sidious is holding the superior position. Sidious just turns around to meet Yoda's attacks or strike at him. You could as well say that Dooku was on par with Yoda when it comes to speed and agility - doesn't make much sense.

From what we've seen in the movies and what is said in the EU nobody was on par with Yoda when it came to speed, agility or lightsaber ability. I can't even count how often people admit that Yoda is vastly superior to them including Mace (Shatterpoint) and Dooku (Dark Rendevouz) in force and lightsaber use.

Simply have a look at the scene in ROTS when Obi-Wan and Yoda are fighting the Clone Troopers in front of the temple. You see 6 or 8 people firing at Yoda with semi-automatic blaster weapons and he deflects every single shot even multiple shots in the same moment. That's by far the fastest lightsaber action you can see in the movies and quite the skill display considering that Luminara (a Soresu master) stated that even she would be unable to deflect blaster bolts from two different ankles at the same time.

@Lightsnake:

In the audio book, it says Leia was purely a spectator. What she was doing was blocking the darkness the Emperor's presence created.

Again Lightsnake: If somebody actively participates in the fight - by blocking the Darkness of Sidious presence - how can she be a spectator at the same time. It doesn't make sense.

By this point, Luke's powers are already incredible with the saber and the force

They are ? Where ?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Sidious is not on par with Yoda when it comes to speed and agility, Escape. Yoda is still jumping around like a mad muppet during their duel , while Sidious is holding the superior position. Sidious just turns around to meet Yoda's attacks or strike at him. You could as well say that Dooku was on par with Yoda when it comes to speed and agility - doesn't make much sense.

From what we've seen in the movies and what is said in the EU nobody was on par with Yoda when it came to speed, agility or lightsaber ability. I can't even count how often people admit that Yoda is vastly superior to them including Mace (Shatterpoint) and Dooku (Dark Rendevouz) in force and lightsaber use.

Simply have a look at the scene in ROTS when Obi-Wan and Yoda are fighting the Clone Troopers in front of the temple. You see 6 or 8 people firing at Yoda with semi-automatic blaster weapons and he deflects every single shot even multiple shots in the same moment. That's by far the fastest lightsaber action you can see in the movies and quite the skill display considering that Luminara (a Soresu master) stated that even she would be unable to deflect blaster bolts from two different ankles at the same time.

@Lightsnake:

Again Lightsnake: If somebody actively participates in the fight - by blocking the Darkness of Sidious presence - how can she be a spectator at the same time. It doesn't make sense.

They are ? Where ?

Nai, this is DE Sidious and by DE, Sidious is at his peak, or may not even be at his peak. But with his vast force knowledge and agility/mobility, he moves just as fast as Yoda, or even faster, and in a lightsaber duel. So he is at the very least on par with Yoda in terms of speed.