Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You'd think if Sidous was faster than Mace, he would have either taken him out first since he was the most powerful, or at least done a better job in a 1 on 1 fight.
Not so.
Consider - the Jedi were prepared anyway. It would have been more practical to dispense with the minor problems before focusing on the major one. Windu is no pushover. To attack him first would have been to battle him while the other three would be able to attack him.
Palpatine did the smart thing. He killed the three minor Jedi - and then focused on the main one. He killed two of them before Mace could do a thing - then fought Fisto and Mace simultaneously, outmaneuvered them, and killed Fisto.
Kudos, though. Now, do me a favor and explain Mace's logic. 😉
Originally posted by Escape81
Not so.Consider - the Jedi were prepared anyway. It would have been more practical to dispense with the minor problems before focusing on the major one. Windu is no pushover. To attack him first would have been to battle him while the other three would be able to attack him.
Palpatine did the smart thing. He killed the three minor Jedi - and then focused on the main one. He killed two of them before Mace could do a thing - then fought Fisto and Mace simultaneously, outmaneuvered them, and killed Fisto.
Kudos, though. Now, do me a favor and explain Mace's logic. 😉
And yet again you've failed to explain how this proves Sidious was faster than Mace, especially with 13 years out of practice. Again, if Sidious was faster than Mace, then he would have at some point floored Mace, unless Mace>all 3 of those Jedi at the same time. Or it's more logical to assume that Mace didn't have the room to work with when he had 3 Jedi beside him, as opposed to him having all the room in the world when it was 1 v 1. Either way, there's nothing to suggest Sidious is faster than Mace.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Mace's logic in regards to what?
If Mace is as fast - or faster than the Emperor - why did he not kill Palpatine, especially when Palpatine was pre-occupied with the others. Hell, if Mace was that good, he could have killed Palpatine when he was fighting Fisto.
I've provided a logical explanation as to why Palpatine didn't go after Mace first. I expect the same.
Yet you've failed to provide the explanation you set out to provide initially. You have failed to provide how Sidious is faster than Mace. I have given you a logical reasoning for why he ISNT faster than Mace, which you threw back at me as a counterargument why Mace isn't faster than Sidious. In either case you proved my point, if Sidious was faster than Mace, he would have killed him in a 1 on 1.
Lol, and, you refuse to respond again. All right. I'll just take that as a sign of a simple fact: you can't refute it. If you can, then do it. If not, consent that you're wrong.
Yet you've failed to provide the explanation you set out to provide initially.
Is that right?
You have failed to provide how Sidious is faster than Mace. I have given you a logical reasoning for why he ISNT faster than Mace, which you threw back at me as a counterargument why Mace isn't faster than Sidious.
Lol, which means - no matter what - Mace isn't faster than Sidious. The best you can hope to argue is that they are of equal speeds. And, your "logical reasoning"? Hardly. I believe I refuted it - and left it for you to respond to.
Which you didn't.
In either case you proved my point, if Sidious was faster than Mace, he would have killed him in a 1 on 1.
Speed is not the defining factor in a fight!
a. General Grievous (who is faster than Mace) was unable to defeat him in Labyrinth of Evil.
The faster opponent lost.
b. General Grievous (who is faster than Obi-Wan) was unable to defeat him (or even come close) Obi-Wan in lightsaber combat in Revenge of the Sith.
The faster opponent lost.
c. Anakin Skywalker (who is faster than Obi-Wan) was unable to defeat him in single combat.
The faster opponent lost.
Three examples that shove your point of "faster = victory" back in your face. Grievous could hit twenty strikes per second. Obi-Wan couldn't get close.
Hell, by your logic - Grievous could wipe his ass with anyone. But, guess what? He can't.
Palpatine proved his speed. He killed two of Mace's allies before Mace or Fisto could do a damn thing to stop him. He then proceeded to engage Mace and Fisto in combat (both of them at the same time) and killed Fisto - while fending off Mace.
Furthermore, the only reason that Mace won is due to Shatterpoint.
Refute it. Otherwise, don't bother responding.
Lol, which means - no matter what - Mace isn't faster than Sidious. The best you can hope to argue is that they are of equal speeds. And, your "logical reasoning"? Hardly. I believe I refuted it - and left it for you to respond to.Which you didn't.
[
I]Speed is not the defining factor in a fight[/I]!
Palpatine proved his speed. He killed two of Mace's allies before Mace or Fisto could do a damn thing to stop him. He then proceeded to engage Mace and Fisto in combat (both of them at the same time) and killed Fisto - while fending off Mace.
Originally posted by kamikz
"Nobody said it was.. What are you talking about?"Actually, you did. You said that if Sidious was indeed faster than Mace, he would have won the battle. That could pretty much be described in that way ^
Rofl. There you go. Outside parties are telling you the same thing.
Thanks DS. I'm not going to be responding to your points when you pick and choose which ones of mine to respond. You will respond to mine, fully, before I return the favor.
Pay attention. You haven't been for quite a while in our debates. I'm getting sick of it.
Originally posted by Escape81
Rofl. There you go. Outside parties are telling you the same thing.Thanks DS. I'm not going to be responding to your points when you pick and choose which ones of mine to respond. You will respond to mine, fully, before I return the favor.
Pay attention. You haven't been for quite a while in our debates. I'm getting sick of it.
And what point are you waiting for? The point of me explaining you that it's more than logical that Sidious and Mace are equal in speed? Or you want me to respond to your ridiculous idea that Sidious is somehow faster than Mace?
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And what point are you waiting for? The point of me explaining you that it's more than logical that Sidious and Mace are equal in speed? Or you want me to respond to your ridiculous idea that Sidious is somehow faster than Mace?
You're entire argument of "Sidious isn't faster than Mace" is because Sidious was unable to defeat Mace in lightsaber combat.
- I have provided three examples of battles where the faster opponent loses. I suggest you take notice of them.
This blows your theory of "the fastest opponent wins" to hell and back. Even Kamikz noticed that you were basing the whole thing on Mace's victory over Sidious in their lightsaber duel. Then, you deny it - and contradict yourself. Remember that whole argument we got into last month, about you blatantly contradicting yourself, and third parties came in and even pointed it out? This is a repeat case.
- I have provided a logical reason why Sidious didn't engage Mace first in their duel, and why he opted to kill the three lesser Jedi Masters. You have yet to provide any proof as to Mace's superior speed. If he were faster, he would have been able to WTFpwn Sidious when he was preoccupied with killing Mace's teammates.
- I have provided the fact that:
a. Mace and his team of Jedi were already prepared and armed if things came down to a fight to the death. Hence why they ignited their lightsabers first.
b. Palpatine was quick enough to kill two of Mace's team before Mace could react. Half of his team died before he could do anything to react.
c. Palpatine was quick enough to engage Mace and Fisto in combat simultaneously (he was fighting them both), outmaneuvered them both, and then killed Fisto - putting Mace on the defensive.
- I have also provided the fact that Mace wasn't even better than Sidious in sheer lightsaber combat. The only reason he won is due to his Shatterpoint gift. Meaning that, as far as we know, Mace = Sidious in sheer saber skills.
It is now your burden to provide proof.
Originally posted by Escape81
You're entire argument of "Sidious isn't faster than Mace" is because Sidious was unable to defeat Mace in lightsaber combat.- I have provided three examples of battles where the faster opponent loses. I suggest you take notice of them.
This blows your theory of "the fastest opponent wins" to hell and back. Even Kamikz noticed that you were basing the whole thing on Mace's victory over Sidious in their lightsaber duel. Then, you deny it - and contradict yourself. Remember that whole argument we got into last month, about you blatantly contradicting yourself, and third parties came in and even pointed it out? This is a repeat case.
- I have provided a logical reason why Sidious didn't engage Mace first in their duel, and why he opted to kill the three lesser Jedi Masters. You have yet to provide any proof as to Mace's superior speed. If he were faster, he would have been able to WTFpwn Sidious when he was preoccupied with killing Mace's teammates.
b. Palpatine was quick enough to kill two of Mace's team before Mace could react. Half of his team died before he could do anything to react.
c. Palpatine was quick enough to engage Mace and Fisto in combat simultaneously (he was fighting them both), outmaneuvered them both, and then killed Fisto - putting Mace on the defensive.
- I have also provided the fact that Mace wasn't even better than Sidious in sheer lightsaber combat. The only reason he won is due to his Shatterpoint gift. Meaning that, as far as we know, Mace = Sidious in sheer saber skills.
It is now your burden to provide proof. [/B][/QUOTE]
Ah wonderful post.. "Well you know dude, you did this this and that x number of years ago, so take note". Bravo Escape. Add the fact that you think that because the faster opponent lost on a few occasions, this is somehow a good argument for Sidious being faster than Mace. Beautiful.
"Number of years ago"? Try a month or so.
That wasn't part of my argument, anyways. It was just proof that you have, for the past month, been misconstruing your opponent's arguments and have blatantly contradicted yourself - essentially "we all know you've done it before" - and so it is an obvious explanation to what's happening now.
Let me try your logic now, meaning I will give a few examples of when the faster opponent won and then proceed to parade around saying "I blew you theory out of the water".. Dooku was faster than both Obiwan and Anakin in AOTC, Yoda defeated Dooku twice I believe, Anakin defeated Depa Billaba, etc. Omgz, I listed 3 fights, that must mean I trumped YOUR Theory!!!
Here's the problem:
As Kamikz has proven, my friend, you are arguing that "the faster opponent wins" - when this is clearly not always the case. Because it is not always the case, it doesn't apply. Your entire point has collapsed, because I have provided instances in which the faster opponent has lost.
Furthermore, is Count Dooku faster than Obi-Wan and Anakin in Attack of the Clones? Not really. Far more precise, skilled, and experienced - yes - as well as just plain old more powerful but not necessarily faster.
Holy shit, talking about dodging the focal point of the argument. Nobody was EVER arguing why Sidious didn't engage Mace first, so stop wasting text.
Mm-hmm. And, yet, I found this posted by you on this thread:
"You'd think if Sidous was faster than Mace, he would have either taken him out first since he was the most powerful, or at least done a better job in a 1 on 1 fight."
Read that. Carefully. You've contradicted yourself. You've lied. Pay more attention.
And youre telling me that because Mace didn't defeat Sidious, he's slower than Sidious? But when I say Sidious is slower than Mace because he didn't beat him, you start throwing around the "speed isnt everything to a duel"? Double standards much? Not to mention again, nobody argued this point.
Here's the difference. I am saying that, if Mace were quicker, he would have been able to defeat Sidious while he was pre-occupied butchering the others. I'm not saying that in a personal duel that he should've won if he was faster, but that he should have been able to while Palpatine killed Kolar and Tinn.
But he didn't. Sidious moved faster than Mace could react. It isn't a double standard. And, yes, you argued this point.
See the Kar Vastor line for the millionth time.
A fine achievement. But this isn't a fist fight. Mace's speed in Shatterpoint clearly isn't the case with his Revenge of the Sith skills - making this either:
a. Only apply to a fist fight.
or b. Shatterpoint is contradicting the movies, making it non-canon.
I expect you to argue Palpatine's lightsaber skills during TPM. But, notice, that he is thirteen years out of practice. His skills would have likely taken quite a dip - anyways. But, as it stands, he is still fast enough.
Ahh I gotcha escape, but you perhaps forgot about how Dooku was easily able to combat Anakin and Obiwan simultaneously, then lose to Anakin alone. I'd say that alone trumps your 'Theory'.
Easily? Not so. He had to take Obi-Wan out of the fight because the duel was anything but easy. Anakin won because, as the fight progressed, he grew stronger. Meaning that the Anakin at the end of the duel was more powerful than the Anakin at the beginning of the duel.
You've trumped nothing.
Uh, Mace having that shatterpoint ability makes him better in regards to lightsaber fighting. I guess Anakin and Obiwan were both equals too and Obiwan had the unique ability of 'patience'.
You've confused yourself.
Depa Billaba, by Mace's confession, is superior to himself in sheer bladework. Does that mean she can take him in an all out fight, especially when he has his Shatterpoint ability? Unlikely.
Mace and Sidious are equals in terms of sheer swordsmanship. That ability doesn't make him better. It just gives him an advantage that Palpatine can't easily counter.
Furthermore, lol, Obi-Wan and Anakin weren't equals in anything - save possibly for Force skill. But, even then, Anakin's raw power so greatly surpasses Obi-Wan's that it isn't even funny. Obi-Wan won only because of his patience, defensive skill, and understanding.
It is now your burden to provide proof.
And I have.
Originally posted by Escape81
As Kamikz has proven, my friend, you are arguing that "the faster opponent wins" - when this is clearly not always the case. Because it is not always the case, it doesn't apply. Your entire point has collapsed, because I have provided instances in which the faster opponent has lost.
Furthermore, is Count Dooku faster than Obi-Wan and Anakin in Attack of the Clones? Not really. Far more precise, skilled, and experienced - yes - as well as just plain old more powerful but not necessarily faster.
"You'd think if Sidous was faster than Mace, he would have either taken him out first since he was the most powerful, or at least done a better job in a 1 on 1 fight."
Here's the difference. I am saying that, if Mace were quicker, he would have been able to defeat Sidious while he was pre-occupied butchering the others. I'm not saying that in a personal duel that he should've won if he was faster, but that he should have been able to while Palpatine killed Kolar and Tinn.
A fine achievement. But this isn't a fist fight. Mace's speed in Shatterpoint clearly isn't the case with his Revenge of the Sith skills - making this either:
I expect you to argue Palpatine's lightsaber skills during TPM. But, notice, that he is thirteen years out of practice. His skills would have likely taken quite a dip - anyways. But, as it stands, he is still fast enough.
Easily? Not so. He had to take Obi-Wan out of the fight because the duel was anything but easy. Anakin won because, as the fight progressed, he grew stronger. Meaning that the Anakin at the end of the duel was more powerful than the Anakin at the beginning of the duel.You've trumped nothing.
Here's the problem with that logic. You are using that as your main argument for why Sidious is supposedly faster, while I'm saying that faster opponents have won, and have lost, therefore you've proven nothing, especially Sidious' superiority to Mace in speed.
All you have argued is that the faster opponents win. That's it. I've proven that they don't always win. It renders your point obsolete, and you can no longer say "If Sidious were faster, he would have won".
That point is moot, what's your excuse for Yoda vs. Dooku?
No. The point isn't moot. I can't help it that your points are ineffective. The term "moot" is used if the point is useless or doesn't apply. Dooku won in Attack of the Clones because he was simply more powerful - not necessarily faster.
And, Yoda was more powerful than Dooku and faster.
Which was a direct response to you saying because Sidious tooled 3 average Jedi, he is automatically faster than Mace. This of course isn't a valid argument because his "speed" against the 3 jedi was not enough to overwhelm Mace.
Doesn't matter. You argued it. Then you went back and said "no one did".
You contradicted yourself. You need to pay attention instead of argue blindly and without logic.
And here's my point for the millionth time. You have no basis on your argument stating Sidious is faster than Mace because he caught Mace off guard.
Mace Windu is the second most powerful Jedi in the Order. According to you, he hit Vastor six times. He's not easily off his guard, especially if he had his lightsaber ignited and prepared - he knew what Palpatine was. Palpatine was simply faster.
Are you saying Mace expected an uber powerful sith/saber fighter, just like that? He could have easily been caught off guard, but this somehow makes Sidious faster all of a sudden?
He expected a fight. He expected a duel. He even ignited his saber first. He had ample time to prepare - even when Palpatine stood up and prepared his blade and tossed off his one liner.
He's not easily off his guard. Once again, you have no point.
Again I revert to my previous point. Dooku was able to take Obiwan and Anakin in AOTC and ROTS, but he was not able to take Yoda, or Anakin alone.
And I have addressed this.
A huge reason would be the amount of room you have to work with. Mace had 3 Jedi in his path that he had to deal with. It's like saying you have 2-3 double lightsabers on one side of the fight, without slashing yourself. There are many reasons as to why Mace couldn't do the job, but one of them is NOT because Sidious is faster. Mace was able to finish the job by himself with more room, but he didn't have enough room in the office and/or was caught off guard, simple as that.
Mace couldn't react in time. Palpatine moved faster than he could keep up with.
And, once again, the only reason he won is that he had time to access Palpatine's Shatterpoint.
Uh as far as i'm concerned, he used the force to augment his speed, and there's nothing suggest he couldn't use that same speed in a lightsaber fight, after all being the top dog.
Mace or Palpatine? They both used the Force to augment their speed. As do Yoda and Dooku.
There's no point in arguing Sidious' abilities if he did train those 13 years because we don't know how much better he would have gotten. For all we know he reached his peak in TPM.
Um... that's my point. His skills dropped from TPM to RotS - hence why he is slower than what was described in TPM.
Anakin got stronger and had more room to operate rather than having Obiwan right next to him.
Anakin won because he got stronger as the fight progressed. Sorry. Dooku took Obi-Wan out of the fight because he was beginning to lose - and had to use the Force to take one of them out.
Anakin then defeated him because he grew more powerful than Dooku.
And after all that you have YET to prove Sidious is faster. Stop saying my points are ineffective or illogical when you can't give a single shred of logical evidence that Sidious is somehow faster. I can and will argue that if its a 4 on 1, the mobility of the 4 is severely limited, which would be an explanation as to why Windu didn't finish Sidious, even if he was or wasn't caught off guard. Your whole argument is "Well he dispatched the 3 average Jedi, so he MUST be faster than Mace". Bravo
We're done arguing, DS.
You seem daring enough to disagree with me, but not so much as to back up what you say. Notice the entire paragraph above your little prattle. I responded to your points. And, for the third time, you refuse to address my counter-argument, but still wish to persist in saying "well, I'm right".
Wrong. You're not. You've lied and contradicted yourself - once again, succeeding in only making yourself foolish because you refuse to pay attention .
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And after all that you have YET to prove Sidious is faster. Stop saying my points are ineffective or illogical when you can't give a single shred of logical evidence that Sidious is somehow faster. I can and will argue that if its a 4 on 1, the mobility of the 4 is severely limited, which would be an explanation as to why Windu didn't finish Sidious, even if he was or wasn't caught off guard. Your whole argument is "Well he dispatched the 3 average Jedi, so he MUST be faster than Mace". Bravo
My friend, your points are ineffective and illogical. I've countered them all, and have done (apparently) a good enough job that you don't want to go back and refute my points.
So, don't whine and complain simply because you make blatant contradictions and I don't play you're game of "instead of consent that my opponent has made a point, dodge points and refuse to agree".
When you can grow up, we'll talk. In the meantime, I'll see if Advent or LS agree with me - and if they do - maybe then they can try to get it through your head.