Orbalisk Bane versus DE Sidious, lightsbaer battle

Originally posted by Escape81
Oh, it does make a difference. By admitting that Ragnos doesn't know everything that his inferior (Sadow) does, you can't say that powers that Sadow possesses belongs to Ragnos. So the old excuse of: "Sadow could make stars go supernova - so Ragnos obviously has to be the PWNZOrs!" no longer applies, because Ragnos hasn't been proven to possess that power, that expertise with Sith Alchemy or technology.

He doesn't have to have those specific powers to still have Sadow, who could do all of those things cower at the sight of his Force Ghost.

Originally posted by Escape81
Sidious = most Sith knowledge, [B]period. Since Sith knowledge can mean Force powers and saber knowledge, it is "logical" to deduce that Palpatine possessed considerable knowledge of Jedi/Sith fighting forms. [/B]

First, where exactly was it stated that he was the most knowledgeable Sith Lord? Second, your evidence does prove that Sidious knew Juyo. If you want to claim that you'd have to prove that Sidious knew everything on his holocrons.

Originally posted by Escape81
I'm not impressed with your argument, Glentract. You said that Maul learned his fighting form from a holocron. That would mean that the holocron belonged to Sidious. Considering what we know about Sidious - and his thirst for knowledge - it's rather inept of you to try to say that he didn't know it as well.

I'm not here to impress you. And it's rather inept of you to claim that Sidious did know everything on his holocron without any proof backing you up. We know that Sidious' forte was NOT lightsaber combat. Force powers were where he was at his peak. Sidious even called lightsaber fighting a "Jedi game". From what I see it's much more likely than not that Sidious didn't know Juyo.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract

First, where exactly was it stated that he was the most knowledgeable Sith Lord? Second, your evidence does prove that Sidious knew Juyo. If you want to claim that you'd have to prove that Sidious knew everything on his holocrons.

Sidious was a practicioner of all 7 forms. He didn't master them but he did used 2-3 against Mace.

[quote]I'm not here to impress you. And it's rather inept of you to claim that Sidious did know everything on his holocron without any proof backing you up. We know that Sidious' forte was NOT lightsaber combat. Force powers were where he was at his peak. Sidious even called lightsaber fighting a "Jedi game". From what I see it's much more likely than not that Sidious didn't know Juyo. [/B]

Except Sidious was fast enough to carve a figure of Maul around Maul, faster than Maul could see. Except for the fact that Sidious nearly stalemated one of the greatest lightsaber duelists ever, AFTER being inactive for 13 years. You're not making any sense here.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Sidious was a practicioner of all 7 forms. He didn't master them but he did used 2-3 against Mace.

Prove it.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except Sidious was fast enough to carve a figure of Maul around Maul, faster than Maul could see. Except for the fact that Sidious nearly stalemated one of the greatest lightsaber duelists ever, AFTER being inactive for 13 years. You're not making any sense here.

Sidious stalemated Yoda? Overall, yes, but with the lightsaber, no. Mace, Yoda's inferior, defeated Sidious in lightsaber combat. If Sidious had used offensive Force attacks on him he would have dominated the fight, but they went lightsaber against lightsaber and he went down. If you want to claim that Sidious knows Juyo, prove up.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Prove it.

perhaps you forgot where Sidious attacks head on, and then a few minutes later he starts flipping around like a muppet. That's at least 2-3 forms right there, and that's prove..

[quote]Sidious stalemated Yoda? Overall, yes, but with the lightsaber, no. Mace, Yoda's inferior, defeated Sidious in lightsaber combat. If Sidious had used offensive Force attacks on him he would have dominated the fight, but they went lightsaber against lightsaber and he went down. If you want to claim that Sidious knows Juyo, prove up. [/B]

Uh yea, Sidious stalemated him overall. They're about equal in force abilities while Yoda is slightly better with a saber..

No, that's not "prove". Because he flips doesn't mean he is using Ataru, because he attacks head-on doesn't mean he uses Djem Su(o?). If it's not stated we don't know...

He doesn't have to have those specific powers to still have Sadow, who could do all of those things cower at the sight of his Force Ghost.

The bottom line is that you have just said that Ragnos's knowledge does not equate to Sadow's. So, for all you know, Ragnos is completely inept and incompetent in anything related to Sith Alchemy, which Sadow had excelled in.

First, where exactly was it stated that he was the most knowledgeable Sith Lord? Second, your evidence does prove that Sidious knew Juyo. If you want to claim that you'd have to prove that Sidious knew everything on his holocrons.

Read Dark Empire and its sourcebook, or ask Lightsnake for the exact quote. It states, I believe, that he knows all of the known techniques, has rediscovered lost techniques, and invents new ones at his pleasure. That > Ancient Sith.

"Second, your evidence does prove that Sidious knew Juyo."

Glad to hear it. There's no need to argue it.

And, of course, you're right. Sidious isn't a patron of knowledge, he doesn't like to learn techniques about the Force, and of course, wouldn't learn everything that he could and everything in his possession.

Stunning argument, Glentract.

I'm not here to impress you.

You're not here to impress anyone. Thank God, because you'd do a poor job, I'd imagine.

And it's rather inept of you to claim that Sidious did know everything on his holocron without any proof backing you up.

Don't accuse me of ineptitude, Glentract, when your entire argument stinks of it. We know Sidious's modus operandi, his disposition for Force based knowledge in general. It is inept of you to propose that Sidious wouldn't learn everything from the holocrons he had in his possession.

We know that Sidious' forte was NOT lightsaber combat. Force powers were where he was at his peak. Sidious even called lightsaber fighting a "Jedi game".

Wrong. We know that Sidious didn't duel in thirteen years before RotS, and was still able to stalemate Windu in sheer swordsmanship. We have accounts from Darth Maul that make Sidious's skills with a saber astonishing. He didn't likely touch a saber after RotS, because he had no need to. Vader was his lightsaber.

Don't argue things that you don't know, Glentract.

From what I see it's much more likely than not that Sidious didn't know Juyo.

As we've seen, what you see isn't much.

Sidious is the only instructor and teacher that Maul had. Maul knew Juyo. Sidious knew what his holocrons had detailed. Therefore, Sidious knew Juyo.

Originally posted by kamikz
No, that's not "prove". Because he flips doesn't mean he is using Ataru, because he attacks head-on doesn't mean he uses Djem Su(o?). If it's not stated we don't know...

What do you mean that's not p-r-o-o-f? When he's flipping like Yoda, he's incorporating either Aturo or Juyo style into the fight. When he's attacking head on he's incorporating another style. That alone gives him 2-3 styles in one fight.

The bottom line is that you have just said that Ragnos's knowledge does not equate to Sadow's. So, for all you know, Ragnos is completely inept and incompetent in anything related to Sith Alchemy, which Sadow had excelled in.

That's very possible. I don't think that I ever argued that Ragnos was specifically good at alchemy. Big whup. Even if I can't prove that Ragnos knew ANYTHING AT ALL we still know that Sadow cowered in the presence of Ragnos' Force Ghost. When has any other Force Ghost been displayed as powerful, much less capable of having the two strongest Sith Lord crapping in their pants?

Read Dark Empire and its sourcebook, or ask Lightsnake for the exact quote. It states, I believe, that he knows all of the known techniques, has rediscovered lost techniques, and invents new ones at his pleasure. That > Ancient Sith.

You're going to need something a lot more solid then that. First of all, Exar was directly stated to have more knowledge that he could ever possibly use and he was still rather young when he got it. Unless Sidious was already several hundred, if not thousand, years old (which we know that he wasn't) there is no way that he could know everything.

"Second, your evidence does prove that Sidious knew Juyo."

Glad to hear it. There's no need to argue it.

And, of course, you're right. Sidious isn't a patron of knowledge, he doesn't like to learn techniques about the Force, and of course, wouldn't learn everything that he could and everything in his possession.

Guess what. Still no evidence to support Sidious knowing Juyo. He could try to learn everything in his posession, but he simply doesn't have the time to do so. Exar, who knew nowhere close to everything, had more knowledge than he could use.

Don't accuse me of ineptitude, Glentract, when your entire argument stinks of it. We know Sidious's modus operandi, his disposition for Force based knowledge in general. It is inept of you to propose that Sidious wouldn't learn everything from the holocrons he had in his possession.

Guess what. Still no evidence to support Sidious knowing Juyo. He could try to learn everything in his posession, but he simply doesn't have the time to do so. Exar, who knew nowhere close to everything, had more knowledge than he could use.

Wrong. We know that Sidious didn't duel in thirteen years before RotS, and was still able to stalemate Windu in sheer swordsmanship. We have accounts from Darth Maul that make Sidious's skills with a saber astonishing. He didn't likely touch a saber after RotS, because he had no need to. Vader was his lightsaber.

I'd like to see these accounts from Darth Maul that make Sidious' saber skills astonishing.

As you have pointed out, Darth Sidious hadn't touched a lightsaber in the 13 years before ROTS and he probably didn't touch one afterwards (either you're forgetting DE or you aren't including times after his first death). And as we know, Exar had more knowledge than he could use, however, you're claiming that Sidious knew all the techniques. There's no logic there. When would he have had time to learn Juyo?

Look at Odan-Urr. He was over a thousand years old when he died, yet he was STILL studying Jedi teachings at the time of his death.

Sidious is the only instructor and teacher that Maul had. Maul knew Juyo. Sidious knew what his holocrons had detailed. Therefore, Sidious knew Juyo.

Guess what. Still no evidence to support Sidious knowing Juyo. He could try to learn everything in his posession, but he simply doesn't have the time to do so. Exar, who knew nowhere close to everything, had more knowledge than he could use.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
What do you mean that's not p-r-o-o-f? When he's flipping like Yoda, he's incorporating either Aturo or Juyo style into the fight. When he's attacking head on he's incorporating another style. That alone gives him 2-3 styles in one fight.

It's highly possible that he's using Form Six.

That's very possible. I don't think that I ever argued that Ragnos was specifically good at alchemy. Big whup. Even if I can't prove that Ragnos knew ANYTHING AT ALL we still know that Sadow cowered in the presence of Ragnos' Force Ghost. When has any other Force Ghost been displayed as powerful, much less capable of having the two strongest Sith Lord crapping in their pants?

Fear is a funny thing, Glentract. Count Dooku was terrified of Palpatine - are you suggesting that the gap of power between them is so significant that Palpatine could wave his hand, and Dooku would fall over, dead?

Especially when we know that Yoda, in AotC (though he dominated the fight), was unable to kill or subdue Count Dooku?

You're going to need something a lot more solid then that. First of all, Exar was directly stated to have more knowledge that he could ever possibly use and he was still rather young when he got it. Unless Sidious was already several hundred, if not thousand, years old (which we know that he wasn't) there is no way that he could know everything.

Exar =/= Sidious, Glentract. If anything, intellectually speaking, you can't even put Kun and Sidious on the same level. Or are you going to argue that one, too?

I guess, of course, if that logic applies... Sadow, Kressh, and Ragnos himself don't know jack, either, do they?

I'd like to see these accounts from Darth Maul that make Sidious' saber skills astonishing.

Sidious traced Maul's outline with a lightsaber, moving so quickly that Maul later recollected if he had moved an inch, Sidious would have shred him to pieces.

It's in the Darth Maul journals.

As you have pointed out, Darth Sidious hadn't touched a lightsaber in the 13 years before ROTS and he probably didn't touch one afterwards (either you're forgetting DE or you aren't including times after his first death). And as we know, Exar had more knowledge than he could use, however, you're claiming that Sidious knew all the techniques. There's no logic there. When would he have had time to learn Juyo?

Uh, gee, maybe he learned it before he stopped touching the saber.

Guess what. Still no evidence to support Sidious knowing Juyo. He could try to learn everything in his posession, but he simply doesn't have the time to do so. Exar, who knew nowhere close to everything, had more knowledge than he could use.

Let's see...

- Maul knew Juyo? Check.

- Sidious being Maul's only instructor/teacher/mentor? Check.

- Sidious, being an intellectual who strived for knowledge? Check.

- Sidious, the type who plundered various worlds for Force based knowledge? Check.

- Sidious, the type who owned holocrons and would, of course, learn as much as he could from them. Check.

- Sidious is confirmed to know these techniques, so if they came from his holocron, he'd use them. Check.

I learned Algebra, geometry, trig, and calculus in school...i haven't been to school in approx 8 years, i haven't used them in 8 years either....ya know what though....i still know them. And i only studied them for less then a year each...we're talking about the most dominant Sith lord ever training in ways to further is occupation. I'm sure he still knows them even if being out of practice. And what do you think he did in the privacy of his home or office when no one was around? played with himself? I'm sure he was still learning as much as he could.

Played with himself. He's too old to get action.

Well, Palpatine was a lonely man... that may have been all he did... play with his nasty, old self. Rofl. That's why he always had an apprentice... to assist him...

😐

Sorry. That was gross. 🙁

Originally posted by Escape81
Well, Palpatine was a lonely man... that may have been all he did... play with his nasty, old self. Rofl. That's why he always had an apprentice... to assist him...

😐

Sorry. That was gross. 🙁

You've been to the OTF lately?

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
You've been to the OTF lately?

?

Ya, stupid joke. ❌

Kinda ruined the akwardness there.

Oh ya, Sid team would win.

Fear is a funny thing, Glentract. Count Dooku was terrified of Palpatine - are you suggesting that the gap of power between them is so significant that Palpatine could wave his hand, and Dooku would fall over, dead?

Especially when we know that Yoda, in AotC (though he dominated the fight), was unable to kill or subdue Count Dooku?

What I'm saying is that it is apparent that people's power declines greatly when they become a Force Ghost. Even after having declined greatly when he died, Ragnos' powers were still so great that he left Sadow shaking in his boots. I doubt very strongly that Sidious' Force Ghost would do that to Dooku.

Exar =/= Sidious, Glentract. If anything, intellectually speaking, you can't even put Kun and Sidious on the same level. Or are you going to argue that one, too?

I guess, of course, if that logic applies... Sadow, Kressh, and Ragnos himself don't know jack, either, do they?

What are you trying to argue? My point is that Sidious could not possibly know everything because we know for sure that there is too much for anyone to know. Even Odan, who was over a thousand when he died was still learning and he spent most of his life in the library.

Sidious traced Maul's outline with a lightsaber, moving so quickly that Maul later recollected if he had moved an inch, Sidious would have shred him to pieces.

It's in the Darth Maul journals.

If Sidious was this good, why couldn't he take down Mace or Yoda? How old was Maul at this time?

Uh, gee, maybe he learned it before he stopped touching the saber.

You think that he had the time to do so?

Let's see...

- Maul knew Juyo? Check.

- Sidious being Maul's only instructor/teacher/mentor? Check.

- Sidious, being an intellectual who strived for knowledge? Check.

- Sidious, the type who plundered various worlds for Force based knowledge? Check.

- Sidious, the type who owned holocrons and would, of course, learn as much as he could from them. Check.

- Sidious is confirmed to know these techniques, so if they came from his holocron, he'd use them. Check.

You've got a problem with you theory and that is that Sidious has so much knowledge that he could not possibly have learned all of it. Refer to my examples with Exar and Odan for proof.

It is possible Sidious knew everything, because nobody was as committed to the darkside and teachings of the sith, as Palpatine. He had a thirst for knowledge and judging by everything we know about him, anything he could learn that dealt with the force, he would have. It explains why he's the most powerful.

It is possible Sidious knew everything, because nobody was as committed to the darkside and teachings of the sith, as Palpatine. He had a thirst for knowledge and judging by everything we know about him, anything he could learn that dealt with the force, he would have. It explains why he's the most powerful.

Did you miss the part about Odan? The guy spent 90+% of his life in the library studying the Force and he still didn't know even close to all of what there was to know. The most important part is that Odan was MUCH older than Yoda when he died.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
[b]It is possible Sidious knew everything, because nobody was as committed to the darkside and teachings of the sith, as Palpatine. He had a thirst for knowledge and judging by everything we know about him, anything he could learn that dealt with the force, he would have. It explains why he's the most powerful.

Did you miss the part about Odan? The guy spent 90+% of his life in the library studying the Force and he still didn't know even close to all of what there was to know. The most important part is that Odan was MUCH older than Yoda when he died. [/B]

Do you understand the difference between quality and quantity? By now we know Plagueis was a pretty damn good teacher, him and Sidious both had a thirst for knowledge, and Sidious learned everything dealing with the Jedi AND the sith. Odan didn't create his own techniques, and it's quite obvious his knowledge was absolutely nothing compared to the knowledge possessed by Sidious.