It's not that funny, actually. DS, I'll respond as soon as I get out of this conversation with a friend of mine. But in the meantime, I want to let you know that you've been reported for the constant flaming. Each time you make an outright flame to someone, I will be reporting it. Each time you insult someone's intelligence, I will be reporting it. I suppose it's not going to take long until your banned.
But I understand. You can't win the argument, so you try to turn it into a flame war. Unfortunately, I've lost my patience with it from you and LS.
I'll see you all soon.
Originally posted by Gideon
It's not that funny, actually. DS, I'll respond as soon as I get out of this conversation with a friend of mine. But in the meantime, I want to let you know that you've been reported for the constant flaming. Each time you make an outright flame to someone, I will be reporting it. Each time you insult someone's intelligence, I will be reporting it. I suppose it's not going to take long until your banned.
But I understand. You can't win the argument, so you try to turn it into a flame war. Unfortunately, I've lost my patience with it from you and LS.
I'll see you all soon. [/B]
Oh I'm sure, please include all of the hypocritical "I know you are but what am I" insults followed by "I will report you" nonsense.
Originally posted by Faunus
Then I guess lifting a pebble and lifting a starship are the same thing.
Palpatine's own power being insufficient to keep Yoda on the ground for more than a few minutes, despite landing a solid hit, and the "distinct" nature of lightning being. . . what, exactly? That as displayed in the movies, it doesn't disintegrate anything? Try again. Or rather, don't.
For someone who practically preaches the levels of canon, you don't seem to pay much attention.
Is Kun going to keep firing, blowing the environment into oblivion and likely hitting his opponent in the process? Yes.
Yes, it is.
What offensive attack could a Jedi use against one of the most powerful Sith in history that would keep him down? As I hope you know, Force-users are taught to defend against telekinesis, so unless Kun is standing there gloating like a moron, he's most likely not going down to that.
Right. So they're going to evade his massive beam, just hop over his head, and chop him in half? Hardly. Even if they manage to close the distance - which is possible with Yoda - he'd probably be quick enough to whip out his lightsaber and engage them in a duel, which is just as bad of a situation for the Jedi.
We also saw it rip through a temple wall and completely annihilate organic beings. More or less everything it touches, it destroys.
Lightsnake, you need to think. A Jedi is not going to overpower a Sith using Dark Side techniques. It's simply not going to happen. And taking a leaf out of your book: Prove Mace can use Force-crush on another powerful Force-user.
And did this kill Grievous? Was Grievous a Force-user? Was Grievous shooting giant blasts of Dark Side energy at him at the time? No.
Figures, and I'm surprised I didn't get this before. Count on Lightsnake to accuse you of bias. [/Quote
Oh, right, and what's next...'IT'S AMBIGUOUS!!!!'
Count on an Antediluvian to disregard G-canon when it contradicts there views
[Quote]
Wow, almost the exact same cicumstances and completely to the point! And Wow! Yoda will instantly resort to something he's never ****ing done, ever. Wow!
Just what part of that were you answering? Because I saw no relevance whatsoever.
Moving your arm takes, y'know, less than an eon if you're not Sidious. And the "idiotic" assertion that Mace and Yoda can't do anything is perfectly valid, as they've demonstrated the ability to run or jump as fast as you claim.
2) Wrong. If Yoda could simply hop away and WTFpwn Sidious with his godly Force-push, he would have done so. Fact is, if he can't do it when facing down relatively slow Senate pods, he's not going to be able to do it against [Nai]lightspeed-fast[/Nai] Force beams.
Yeah, while trying to dodge pods instead of enery blasts. So it balances out.
I'm responding to what I see - you might want to try a) Finishing most of your sentences and b) Making sense.And again, you treat the Dark Side's weapons as simple energy, which it's not. Unless Vader can deflect Sith lightning now. . .
1) Yoda blocked Force-lightning, energy that - as demonstrated by Sidious twice in RotS - does not have the ability to disintegrate flesh and bone, rock, etc.[/Quote]
Strange...never saw the amulets disintegrate a damn thing....odd, I saw Palpatine's lightning reduce three people to smoldering bones.
2) Exar Kun's blast of Dark-Side energy has the ability to disintegrate flesh and bones, rock, etc.
3) Force-lightning =/= Amulet blasts4) Thus, there is no evidence supporting your claims that Yoda can simply catch the beams with his bare hands.
Right. Well, if Mace somehow pulls this ability out of his ass and manages to block the beams - despite them being multiple times his size and far larger than the defensive barricade his saber affords him - I don't see how he's simply going to stop, block it, and continue his charge before Kun just hurls another at his feet, considering his intense struggle against Palpatine's lightning.
There's absolutely nothing supporting your claims that Yoda can defend against them, and if he can't, it's unlikely that any Jedi can.
Did you miss the part where he's being confronted by every single Jedi in the galaxy?
I missed the part where he created the terentateks. And if he did, I'm curious to see how they survived the Light Side purge that destroyed Yavin's forests and got off-world.
Who the hell said they can't be disabled? Don't put words into my mouth. [/Quote
Advent did, actually.
[Quote]
There's absolutely nothing pointing to the contrary.
Thoroughly, actually, and the amount of BS is staggering.
It seems to be a bunch of random facts that don't prove that every Sith and his mother had access to the powerful amulets of Sadow and the ilk.
When was this?
Oh, I'm sorry...I could've sworn I pointed out how Vader WORE IT ON HIS RIGHT HAND
Which is evidence you have yet to provide.
Originally posted by Faunus
"Master Windu traced Darth Sidious to Five Hundred Republica before Grievous's attack-we think that the Sith Lord is someone within Palpatine's closest circle of advisers."Before Obi-Wan had left Coruscant, Mace Windu had told him of facing Grievous in single combat atop a mag-lev train during the general's daring raid to capture Palpatine. Mace had told him how the computers slaved to Grievous's brain had apparently analyzed even Mace's unconventionally lethal Vaapad and had been able to respond in kind after a single exchange.
Come again?
You mean the G-canon source that you're trying to contradict?
Both, to be honest.l
Glad you know how I feel.
You must have no idea how quickly you managed to irk me, and given my once large reserve of tolerance, that's not any easy thing to do.
Just about every Sith Lord? Nice. We have Marka Ragnos, who was by far the most powerful Sith of his time. We have Ludo Kressh and Sadow, the two favorites for the throne and Ragnos's immediate successors in power. And we have the few Lords we see in the council, each holding dominion over his own region or planet. Good work.
Again, don't put words into my mouth. It's rather obvious that the most powerful and prestigious Sith in the Empire are going to have these weapons, if only as symbols of power.
i'm saying from what we saw, the swords have the same effects.
So shooting beams and charging swords are the same thing now?I'm disappointed. Another exchange like this and I might shed a tear.
Moreover, let me add something:
http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=7&page=102
This is how big the blast starts out as. It is not particularly large, nor destructive.
http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=7&page=103
And here are the blasts at their greatest that we see. again, these are hardly at destructive.
http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=7&page=104
here it says Kun was barely able to control the powers of the amulet and they almost destroyed him.Granted, this is before he masters the Sith power, but it it is a possible explanation for his lack of using the amulet again.
Now, Faunus: You're someone I respect more than almost any other when it comes to debates. If you have issues with my argument, I'd rather you simply tell me so instead of taking such an aggressive stance in out. As I told Advent: Outside circumstances are currently affecting me to some degree, and there's truly no reason for things to get out of hand
1.) All the specified Tales comics you've listed have had references in other "C"-canon material. For example, Yaddle's Tale (#5) has had references in Cloak of Deception, and Extinction (#2) has been noted in the Ultimate Visual Guide, on page 65. Therefore, elements of the story are considered in continuity.
Now, I'll concede that Heart of Darkness is S-canon, at least, parts of it; seeing as Leland Chee updated his stance on Tales comics #1-16. However, there is an inconsistency with the timeline, and according to the databank on two separate occasions, the Dark Side Cave on Dagobah was formed circa 22 BBY.
Even if it weren't, I've taken notice that you didn't so much as mention a specific part of my response, of which is all that matters. Please, if you will, directly address this:
Originally posted by Advent
What relevance does this have? How does this affect our debate? Yoda didn't do anything then, either:
Reading through previous posts, I've come to the realization that this is off-topic concerning what we were debating about. You brought up the point that Yoda, or shall I call him "Minch", fought a Bpfasshi Dark Jedi, and implied he "restricted" the dark side then. He didn't, ergo this entire discussion is still irrelevant, and was a misdirection on your part.
By the way, the poster that said The Stark Hyperspace War had ties into Heart of Darkness was lying, or plainly hadn't a clue of what he spoke of. I just read through ninty or so pages of bullshit bacta, dying Jedi, and Plo Koon - yet there was not a damn thing I could find that had any reference to our 10-page comic. Yoda only has one line, FFS! Unless I missed it (which is possible), I'd question his certainty regarding the matter (Bloodlines, too). Although, it matters not, regardless.
2.) "One other thing to keep in mind is that the target audience for the cartoons and the novels is different so they will each have a different approach to storytelling. As a result, certain action scenes and Jedi abilities sometimes will be exagerated in the cartoon..."
Now, you posed the question: "before or after the tNEC". As an answer to that question, I would tell you that it doesn't matter. He stated then that both sources are acknowledged, however, that doesn't change the fact that - in the cartoon accounts - the Jedi's capabilities are aggrandized. So, unless you provide evidence that Yoda has demonstrated anything remotely resembling such abilities outside of the microseries, I'm forced to believe he cannot do these things.
The storyline itself is canon obviously, but things like Mace Windu punching out an army of battle droids with his bare hands, and then jumping several miles is not. Likewise, Yoda supposedly blocking a hailfire droid's attack, and tossing ships around with a wave of his hand is ridiculous. He hasn't been shown to demonstrate this type of power, so we can assume that he doesn't have it, and that - like Leland Chee pointed out - the Clone Wars made his proficiency seem greater than it actually is.
That's ad absurdum, it's a deus ex machina made for a children's show, their talents are godlike (General Grievous' even), and I'd submit if they knew such things, they would be nigh invincible. Clearly, they aren't.
3.) If Mace Windu "moves so fast you can't even see his movements unless he lets you", then why is Darth Sidious able to contend with him? Why is Count Dooku? Where are these "super powers" in the highest form of canon? You'd think he would've demonstrated such ability if he had it, or perhaps, they aren't much of anything against Force users like Count Dooku, Exar Kun, and Anakin Skywalker (higher tier).
My point concerning Obi-Wan's duel against General Grievous, and Luke's training in ANH was simple. General Grievous can swing his lightsabers at the speed of a buzzsaw, Obi-Wan isn't nearly as fast, however, with the Force aiding him he's able to keep up with Grievous, and contend with his speed. Luke, without even being able to perceive them with his eyes, is still able to block laser bolts. He would know what's happening, it's not as if he needs an automated "lock on". The Force allows such things.
4.) In regards to Jerec, and Kyle, what, pray tell, does the fact that Kyle severed the force from Jerec have to do with anything? Neither Yoda, nor Mace have been shown to know such a technique. Indeed, it would've gravely helped against Darth Sidious.
If you are trying to imply that that'd be an attack to nullify the uses of the amulet, you're correct; although, it doesn't directly effect the amulet itself, as it'd still be in tact, and able to be used by another Force user. But, again, that's irrelevant to the actual versus match for reasons above.
I noticed you're claiming my one statement to be "irrelevant misdirection". May I ask, Lightsnake, do you even know what that is? Touting off such things doesn't make what you say accurate if your accusations of such are wrong. Let's see what you originally said:
Originally posted by Lightsnake
and never tested against a strong Force User
So you're telling me that what I said was "misdirecting" the conversation? To where, Lightsnake? I've answered your question correctly, you twisting my argument (my position was never that it was Yoda, or Mace) doesn't help your side much. Care to explain how it's "irrelevant", too? Wait, you don't need to, because it wasn't. You were vague in your question, and I answered it justly. Nice try.
Great, I could just say Mace force crushes him before he has a chance to use the amulet or Yoda uses a force push to send him flying at the start.
The difference here is that, among other things, Mace Windu wouldn't have any knowledge of what he's combating. He may have heard of it, but studied it? That's a huge field you're going into, there's no way to even deduce that he knows what he's up against. One could make the argument that Exar Kun would have studied the dark side, and read upon techniques such as Force crush, and the like. He (seemingly) knows Force grip, which is a lesser version of said attack, so it's not jumping into the wild to say he could defend against an attack like that.
Correspondingly, the point with Exar Kun freezing Mace's or Yoda's lightsaber falls under the same category, which would be techniques that no PT Jedi has been shown to know, or so much as heard of given the fact that the Jedi Academy Sourcebook states that "the dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun; it is extremely unlikely that any records survive, on Yavin Four, or elsewhere".
I'm curious, when did it show active disintegration?
The Massassi in the top panels are clearly being disintegrated, and second picture of the carcass of the Sith Wyrm displays half the body missing. The narration even notes that "consumed another of Naga Sadow's horrors". In this context, "consumed" would mean that of obliterated into particles by the amulet beams.
Because it's a type of amulet to be worn on one's hand? Do you ahve any points to the contrary?
Yes, actually:
I'm referring to when the Jedi assaulted their homeworlds, actually. Now, whether they could use it to a greater degree isn't important. If these amulets are continuous
Where were these supposed Sith Lords then, Lightsnake? Prove up.
Whether or not they could use it a greater degree isn't important? Let's make a short analysis of the direct effects of when Ulic Qel-Droma, and Exar Kun put to use their amulets respectively. Compare:
You'll note that all Ulic is able to acquire out of it is knocking Nomi and Cay on their asses, which is akin to a Force push. This is also Ulic when he's extremely enraged, and has already been injected with Sith poison by Satal. On the flip side, Exar's usage of said amulet is far more destructive, and powerful than Ulic's.
Indeed, it does matter how effectively they can wield the weapon. I've already stated that they can be blocked, Ulic's use isn't on par with that of Kun's (yet they both have the weapon in their hand), therefore I'd say it's safe to assume that can be defended against. So, it does matter significantly.
I don't know, I'm asking you to prove to me that they're totally immune from anything such as this. We've seen force artifacts destroyed before, have we not?
Delving into the topic, it's not up to me to provide proof that the amulets can be destroyed, it's up to you as that's what you're arguing. The default position is that, as we've never seen a Force-based power affect any talismans (as far as I know), that nothing can render its uses void. We've seen Marka Ragnos' scepter destroyed in Jedi Academy (the game), however, that was with a lightsaber blow, which I'd submit would do Exar Kun's amulet in as I've previously stated.
build his tomb and then there were the 'Other Sith Lords' Naga Sadow mentions aboard his ship.
Lightsnake, there were no Sith Lords present to fend off the Republic on their home worlds. The Sith Lords that Naga had referenced were killed by his own Massassi in a gamble to escape Empress Teta's forces (as they likely wouldn't comply to suicide):
"His force reduced to only a handful of Sith followers and a small Massassi crew, Naga Sadow searched out a new home for the Sith Empire.
Meanwhile Kressh rallied the Sith Lords who remained behind, promising them wealth and power if they allied with him against Naga Sadow." (Darkside Sourcebook, p. 71)
Now, as for the rest of the Sith Lords, we know that after Ludo Kressh staged his own death, he amassed his own force to combat Naga Sadow. All the remainder of the Sith Lord, who would've "imposed" the title of Dark Lord upon him, were gathered, and tried to attack Sadow. As we know, Ludo's ship gets a kamikaze assault courtesy of Naga Sadow, and destroyed said battalion. Ergo, we cannot say that that the Sith Lords did jack shit other than die in space battles, where their amulets and artifacts couldn't be put to the test.
So, obviously, your questions and assertions regarding this situation are incorrect, or invalid. They all died.
5.) What do you mean "I don't have an explanation"? I don't need one, as it's apparent. But, for the sake of entertaining your odd statements, it's fairly simple. Luke Skywalker, even after being under the tutelage of Darth Sidious, who you cream your pants over, didn't have any defense for an attack Exar Kun knew. It's that simple, and the point for me bringing that up is equally as simple. Post-DE Luke couldn't find a resistance against the attack, tell me, why would Yoda be able to?
"Any given Sunday"? Luke didn't have any protection for it then, why would he have one now, especially when it'd be at the same point of power (post-DE; JA)?
As for the Golden Globe, I've already compiled proof in the form of quotes, I can't say the same for you. The burden of proof lies upon you to prove that Exar called upon the Golden Globe, it's not my obligation to read a series of books.
Let's assume, arguendo, that what you say is true. This is begging the question: why is Kun so weak? I've already compiled proof in the form of quotes (I can't say the same for you). If Exar could draw on such supplies, why has his power vastly diminished to the point where he needs to draw on residual energy to sustain himself? Why does he need others' life forces when he supposedly has the Golden Globe to draw on? I'll repost what I said in the other topic, as it'd be stupid on my behalf to write something new:
Originally posted by Advent
"Kun discovered that one of his great temples was inhabited by a small band of armed humans. But before he could gather enough strength to reach out to tap his energy source, the Force-user and his fellows departed, and Kun again lapsed into sleep.Eagerly, but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, proving for weaknessess and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy. For a time, he is able to suside by feeding on their residual energy, but soon he will need worshippers if he is to grow more active.
Enraged and drained, Ken returns to Gantoris. Desperate for more energy, he goads Gantoris[...]
"Realizing that Gantoris is no longer his, Kun utterly drains him to provide himself a reserve of energy to last until he can subvert more students." (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, pg. 49)
The first statement is talking about a Force sensitive human who arrived on Yavin, not any of Luke's Jedi, and the third statement is made in reference to when Kun appears to Luke as a shade of his father, and Luke rejects him. He's "drained", and is "desperate for energy", yet - according to you - he can call upon the Golden Globe, the dark side of Yavin, and other things. To me, if what you're saying is true, then those things do not help him much, if they even do at all.
Throughout the entire story (Dark Apprentice, at least) Exar Kun draws upon anger, and is in dire need of such. Where are these alleged "resources"? Why isn't the Golden Globe so much as mentioned? The only reference to such a thing is indirect, as Kun states that he had to "drain dry every last one of the Massassi". He doesn't say he accessed such afterwards, and there's no indication of anything you're suggesting. It's your turn now. Prove up.
You also questioned the relevance of me quoting a passage from Dark Apprentice, I'm fairly certain my intentions were clear. Which were to show evidence that Luke wasn't as "surprised" as you make him out to be, and still tried every skillful tactic he knew to escape the "clutches of doom", yet still couldn't do such.
Funny, because the Visual dictionary listed him as spending his life in the pursuit of knowledge, even visiting worlds so remote few know they exist, and having access to the Great Holocron.
Your asinine assumptions imply that Yoda must've known all light side powers that were available during his day. This is totally unsupported nonsense, and bullshit at its finest. He may have searched for knowledge, but that doesn't mean he had to know Force Light, because the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook disagrees, as does logic in general.
Plus, he did not spend a full seven centuries gaining information, as one of your original points stated. In the same boat, my comparing Exar Kun and Freedon to Yoda and Yaddle was a perfectly valid explanation, and had a sound point behind it. Which would be that just because he had access to such, doesn't mean he knows it. Have you even looked at what I'm responding to? You acknowledged that I had a point when you stated "point moot". If there wasn't any crux to what I was saying, you would've (or should've) said it was irrelevant, instead of telling me it's invalid. Either way, it doesn't matter much, as what I said stand.
6.) No, Lightsnake, you haven't provided a shred of proof (quotes) suggesting that anyone aside from Lord Kaan had an amulet. Like Faunus stated, all you've given up so far is assorted bits of information, which aren't what I consider to be "proof". Proof would've been a quote, or passage that supports your claims. You've yet to do such, and this is speaking in regards to the New Sith era, and all the Sith Lords (and one Lady) who we were discussing. Just take a look, it's obvious your avoiding my question.
I never asked for proof that Darth Vader had a Sith amulet, in fact, I believe I said "I don't give a shit". Here's exactly what I wanted, and following that, I'll explain the implications:
Originally posted by Advent
I know that Kaan had an amulet, but can you show me a passage, or quote, perhaps, that says anyone aside from him had one? I'm not saying that they didn't, but I haven't read anything about the New Sith Wars.In any case, even if they (BoD) did have them in their possession, were they gauntlets? For all I know, all it did was what Ulic's amulet had done.
I wanted proof in the form of an excerpt from the material that anyone, save for Kaan, from the New Sith era had amulets. Darth Vader comes a thousand years later.
Waaaait....you're trying to tell me only Kaan had Sith amulets in a brotherhood where the fundamental nature was equality? and you're really trying to convince me. That's patently absurd.
Trying to "convince" you? It's not my job to "convince" you that they didn't have amulets, it's up to you to provide substantial proof of your position, aside from ramblings which I cannot confirm because that's all they are. The onus is on you to show me that the entire Brotherhood of Darkness had Sith amulets. I'm actually loving your tactics here, but they aren't working too well, as it would seem.
And again, do you really think in the limited time they actually had together, Yoda would bring up things like 'ok, in the event of a 4000 year old spirit and your best student attacking you, you..."
Do you really think that Yoda actually had knowledge of what to do in an event as such? Or, plainly, I'll state: do you have any proof that Yoda can defend against such an attack? The simplest answer one could give would be, "no". Luke at the point of the Jedi Academy trilogy was an extremely powerful figure, and had even received training from DE Sidious, yet he had no defense for what Exar Kun launched at him. Why would Yoda? Prove up.
7.) By the way, you should note I said that the Sith hadn't been around for a millennia, or so they thought. I'm referring to the Jedi's insights on the matter, in-universe. For example, you'll note that Ki-Adi-Mundi, who was on the Council for years, and definitely would've known that the Sith still loom said "Impossible! The Sith have been extinct for a millennium". As well, Mace Windu's dialogue indicates that they hadn't known anything about the Sith still being active at the time, "I do not believe they could have returned without us knowing."
The Jedi believed the Sith to be nonexistent for a thousand years. What reasons would the Jedi have to access information, if there was any, on the powers of the Ancient Sith specifically? And again, provide proof that if they actually do study Sith holocrons, that this includes objects, and artifacts.
Also, Qrrrl Tal isn't the one who notices that it was a Sith amulet, it was Cay. Still, the fact he recognized a Sith amulet isn't saying much, considering King Ommin had a Sith amulet, and Cay was sent on a mission there with his brother. Also, there were rumors of Sith practitioners on Onderon. So, it's more likely that the Jedi of old would've known about such a device, whereas the PT Jedi haven't even heard of Sith in over a millennium, much less Ancient Sith techniques, artifacts, and equipment. Seeing as no one that they knew of had acquired such during their day.
It's quite probable some Sith of Bane's order managed to clash with Jedi here and there.
No, not for a thousand years according to Ki-Adi-Mundi. While one might say that he is a fallible, third party character, it's apparent that he would've known of what you're suggesting. It's probable that they did not.
here it says Kun was barely able to control the powers of the amulet and they almost destroyed him.
Exar had absolutely no knowledge of Naga Sadow's teachings, much less the gauntlet of which he had equipped. You'll notice that initially he had no problem until the energy started increasing after a few beams were launched.
It's logical to assume that Exar did master everything Sadow had left, which would've included the amulet beams as that's what almost destroyed him. I say this due to his dialogue, the abilities he demonstrated afterwards (Senate Hall, creating alchemical monstrosities), his ambition, and the fact that he'd have no need to continue getting Jedi artifacts if hadn't even mastered what was right in front of him. There's more to it, but I can't find the argument I had with Darth Sexy, I'll re-post when I do.
I'm not even going to bother responding to you claiming that the beams weren't destructive. A blind man with both his eyes gouged out could see that.
Edit:
There's more to my response, of course, I just don't have time to address certain things, at the moment. Expect the rest later today.
Darth Revan destroyed a whole rakatan fleet. Considering that they were ruling the galaxy at one point, they probably had massive ships in massive numbers.
revan was on a small ship with malak, and when he used Force Storm to destroy the fleet, there is a high chance that his ship would be tak out as well because of its small size. That implies that Revna actually kept the storm in control, which is what Sidious couldn't do in DE.
So Revan could probably win against yoda, but it will be a hard fight.
Originally posted by Advent
1.) All the specified Tales comics you've listed have had references in other "C"-canon material. For example, Yaddle's Tale (#5) has had references in Cloak of Deception, and Extinction (#2) has been noted in the Ultimate Visual Guide, on page 65. Therefore, elements of the story are considered in continuity.Now, I'll concede that Heart of Darkness is S-canon, at least, parts of it; seeing as Leland Chee updated his stance on Tales comics #1-16. However, there is an inconsistency with the timeline, and according to the databank on two separate occasions, the Dark Side Cave on Dagobah was formed circa 22 BBY.
Even if it weren't, I've taken notice that you didn't so much as mention a specific part of my response, of which is all that matters. Please, if you will, directly address this:
Reading through previous posts, I've come to the realization that this is off-topic concerning what we were debating about. You brought up the point that Yoda, or shall I call him "Minch", fought a Bpfasshi Dark Jedi, and implied he "restricted" the dark side then. He didn't, ergo this entire discussion is still irrelevant, and was a misdirection on your part.
By the way, the poster that said The Stark Hyperspace War had ties into Heart of Darkness was lying, or plainly hadn't a clue of what he spoke of. I just read through ninty or so pages of bullshit bacta, dying Jedi, and Plo Koon - yet there was not a damn thing I could find that had any reference to our 10-page comic. Yoda only has one line, FFS! Unless I missed it (which is possible), I'd question his certainty regarding the matter (Bloodlines, too). Although, it matters not, regardless.
2.) "One other thing to keep in mind is that the target audience for the cartoons and the novels is different so they will each have a different approach to storytelling. As a result, [b]certain action scenes and Jedi abilities sometimes will be exagerated in the cartoon...
Now, you posed the question: "before or after the tNEC". As an answer to that question, I would tell you that it doesn't matter. He stated then that both sources are acknowledged, however, that doesn't change the fact that - in the cartoon accounts - the Jedi's capabilities are aggrandized. So, unless you provide evidence that Yoda has demonstrated anything remotely resembling such abilities outside of the microseries, I'm forced to believe he cannot do these things.
The storyline itself is canon obviously, but things like Mace Windu punching out an army of battle droids with his bare hands, and then jumping several miles is not. Likewise, Yoda supposedly blocking a hailfire droid's attack, and tossing ships around with a wave of his hand is ridiculous. He hasn't been shown to demonstrate this type of power, so we can assume that he doesn't have it, and that - like Leland Chee pointed out - the Clone Wars made his proficiency seem greater than it actually is.
That's ad absurdum, it's a deus ex machina made for a children's show, their talents are godlike (General Grievous' even), and I'd submit if they knew such things, they would be nigh invincible. Clearly, they aren't.
3.) If Mace Windu "moves so fast you can't even see his movements unless he lets you", then why is Darth Sidious able to contend with him? Why is Count Dooku? Where are these "super powers" in the highest form of canon? You'd think he would've demonstrated such ability if he had it, or perhaps, they aren't much of anything against Force users like Count Dooku, Exar Kun, and Anakin Skywalker (higher tier).
My point concerning Obi-Wan's duel against General Grievous, and Luke's training in ANH was simple. General Grievous can swing his lightsabers at the speed of a buzzsaw, Obi-Wan isn't nearly as fast, however, with the Force aiding him he's able to keep up with Grievous, and contend with his speed. Luke, without even being able to perceive them with his eyes, is still able to block laser bolts. He would know what's happening, it's not as if he needs an automated "lock on". The Force allows such things.
4.) In regards to Jerec, and Kyle, what, pray tell, does the fact that Kyle severed the force from Jerec have to do with anything? Neither Yoda, nor Mace have been shown to know such a technique. Indeed, it would've gravely helped against Darth Sidious.
If you are trying to imply that that'd be an attack to nullify the uses of the amulet, you're correct; although, it doesn't directly effect the amulet itself, as it'd still be in tact, and able to be used by another Force user. But, again, that's irrelevant to the actual versus match for reasons above.
I noticed you're claiming my one statement to be "irrelevant misdirection". May I ask, Lightsnake, do you even know what that is? Touting off such things doesn't make what you say accurate if your accusations of such are wrong. Let's see what you originally said:So you're telling me that what I said was "misdirecting" the conversation? To where, Lightsnake? I've answered your question correctly, you twisting my argument (my position was never that it was Yoda, or Mace) doesn't help your side much. Care to explain how it's "irrelevant", too? Wait, you don't need to, because it wasn't. You were vague in your question, and I answered it justly. Nice try.
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The difference here is that, among other things, Mace Windu wouldn't have any knowledge of what he's combating. He may have heard of it, but studied it? That's a huge field you're going into, there's no way to even deduce that he knows what he's up against. One could make the argument that Exar Kun would have studied the dark side, and read upon techniques such as Force crush, and the like. He (seemingly) knows Force grip, which is a lesser version of said attack, so it's not jumping into the wild to say he could defend against an attack like that.[/Quote
And then it'd come down to who's stronger in a contest of the force offensively, and Mace's own not inconsiderably precognition and Force connection. I doubt Mace is dump enough to stare at the amulet while Kun raises it and marvel at how shiny it is. No, I'd wager he'd actively react the moment he sensed a hint of danger, which, when a Sith Lord raises up a Dark Side item, would probably set off warning bells.
Correspondingly, the point with Exar Kun freezing Mace's or Yoda's lightsaber falls under the same category, which would be techniques that no PT Jedi has been shown to know, or so much as heard of given the fact that the Jedi Academy Sourcebook states that "the dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun; it is extremely unlikely that any records survive, on Yavin Four, or elsewhere".
The Massassi in the top panels are clearly being disintegrated, and second picture of the carcass of the Sith Wyrm displays half the body missing. The narration even notes that "consumed another of Naga Sadow's horrors". In this context, "consumed" would mean that of obliterated into particles by the amulet beams.
Yes, actually:
Where were these supposed Sith Lords then, Lightsnake? Prove up.
Whether or not they could use it a greater degree isn't important? Let's make a short analysis of the direct effects of when Ulic Qel-Droma, and Exar Kun put to use their amulets respectively. Compare:You'll note that all Ulic is able to acquire out of it is knocking Nomi and Cay on their asses, which is akin to a Force push. This is also Ulic when he's extremely enraged, and has already been injected with Sith poison by Satal. On the flip side, Exar's usage of said amulet is far more destructive, and powerful than Ulic's.
Indeed, it does matter how effectively they can wield the weapon. I've already stated that they can be blocked, Ulic's use isn't on par with that of Kun's (yet they both have the weapon in their hand), therefore I'd say it's safe to assume that can be defended against. So, it does matter significantly. [/B]
again: The ones we have seen the Sith Lords wearing in GAOTS and FOTSE are the exact type of amulets Naga wears.
Originally posted by Advent
Delving into the topic, it's not up to me to provide proof that the amulets can be destroyed, it's up to you as that's what you're arguing. The default position is that, as we've never seen a Force-based power affect any talismans (as far as I know), that nothing can render its uses void. We've seen Marka Ragnos' scepter destroyed in Jedi Academy (the game), however, that was with a lightsaber blow, which I'd submit would do Exar Kun's amulet in as I've previously stated.
The only force empowered object we have seen destroyed to my recollection, tend to be Holocrons of the Sith and Jedi variety. Shall I ask Leland about that next?[Quote]
Lightsnake, there were no Sith Lords present to fend off the Republic on their home worlds. The Sith Lords that Naga had referenced were killed by his own Massassi in a gamble to escape Empress Teta's forces (as they likely wouldn't comply to suicide):"[b]His force reduced to only a handful of Sith followers and a small Massassi crew, Naga Sadow searched out a new home for the Sith Empire.
Meanwhile Kressh rallied the Sith Lords who remained behind, promising them wealth and power if they allied with him against Naga Sadow." (Darkside Sourcebook, p. 71)
Now, as for the rest of the Sith Lords, we know that after Ludo Kressh staged his own death, he amassed his own force to combat Naga Sadow. All the remainder of the Sith Lord, who would've "imposed" the title of Dark Lord upon him, were gathered, and tried to attack Sadow. As we know, Ludo's ship gets a kamikaze assault courtesy of Naga Sadow, and destroyed said battalion. Ergo, we cannot say that that the Sith Lords did jack shit other than die in space battles, where their amulets and artifacts couldn't be put to the test.
So, obviously, your questions and assertions regarding this situation are incorrect, or invalid. They all died.
5.) What do you mean "I don't have an explanation"? I don't need one, as it's apparent. But, for the sake of entertaining your odd statements, it's fairly simple. Luke Skywalker, even after being under the tutelage of Darth Sidious, who you cream your pants over, didn't have any defense for an attack Exar Kun knew. It's that simple, and the point for me bringing that up is equally as simple. Post-DE Luke couldn't find a resistance against the attack, tell me, why would Yoda be able to?
Trying to "convince" you? It's not my job to "convince" you that they didn't have amulets, it's up to you to provide substantial proof of your position, aside from ramblings which I cannot confirm because that's all they are. The onus is on you to show me that the entire Brotherhood of Darkness had Sith amulets. I'm actually loving your tactics here, but they aren't working too well, as it would seem.
Do you really think that Yoda actually had knowledge of what to do in an event as such? Or, plainly, I'll state: do you have any proof that Yoda can defend against such an attack? The simplest answer one could give would be, "no". Luke at the point of the Jedi Academy trilogy was an extremely powerful figure, and had even received training from DE Sidious, yet he had no defense for what Exar Kun launched at him. Why would Yoda? Prove up. [/B]
7.) By the way, you should note I said that the Sith hadn't been around for a millennia, or so they thought. I'm referring to the Jedi's insights on the matter, in-universe. For example, you'll note that Ki-Adi-Mundi, who was on the Council for years, and definitely would've known that the Sith still loom said "Impossible! The Sith have been extinct for a millennium". As well, Mace Windu's dialogue indicates that they hadn't known anything about the Sith still being active at the time, "I do not believe they could have returned without us knowing."The Jedi believed the Sith to be nonexistent for a thousand years. What reasons would the Jedi have to access information, if there was any, on the powers of the Ancient Sith specifically? And again, provide proof that if they actually do study Sith holocrons, that this includes objects, and artifacts.
Also, Qrrrl Tal isn't the one who notices that it was a Sith amulet, it was Cay. Still, the fact he recognized a Sith amulet isn't saying much, considering King Ommin had a Sith amulet, and Cay was sent on a mission there with his brother. Also, there were rumors of Sith practitioners on Onderon. So, it's more likely that the Jedi of old would've known about such a device, whereas the PT Jedi haven't even heard of Sith in over a millennium, much less Ancient Sith techniques, artifacts, and equipment. Seeing as no one that they knew of had acquired such during their day.
No, not for a thousand years according to Ki-Adi-Mundi. While one might say that he is a fallible, third party character, it's apparent that he would've known of what you're suggesting. It's probable that they did not.
Exar had absolutely no knowledge of Naga Sadow's teachings, much less the gauntlet of which he had equipped. You'll notice that initially he had no problem until the energy started increasing after a few beams were launched.
It's logical to assume that Exar did master everything Sadow had left, which would've included the amulet beams as that's what almost destroyed him. I say this due to his dialogue, the abilities he demonstrated afterwards (Senate Hall, creating alchemical monstrosities), his ambition, and the fact that he'd have no need to continue getting Jedi artifacts if hadn't even mastered what was right in front of him. There's more to it, but I can't find the argument I had with Darth Sexy, I'll re-post when I do.
I'm not even going to bother responding to you claiming that the beams weren't destructive. A blind man with both his eyes gouged out could see that.
There's more to my response, of course, I just don't have time to address certain things, at the moment. Expect the rest later today.
Also, we're getting a bit off topic. Care to simplify things?
"Any given Sunday"? Luke didn't have any protection for it then, why would he have one now, especially when it'd be at the same point of power (post-DE; JA)?
As for the Golden Globe, I've already compiled proof in the form of quotes, I can't say the same for you. The burden of proof lies upon you to prove that Exar called upon the Golden Globe, it's not my obligation to read a series of books.
Let's assume, arguendo, that what you say is true. This is begging the question: why is Kun so weak? I've already compiled proof in the form of quotes (I can't say the same for you). If Exar could draw on such supplies, why has his power vastly diminished to the point where he needs to draw on residual energy to sustain himself? Why does he need others' life forces when he supposedly has the Golden Globe to draw on? I'll repost what I said in the other topic, as it'd be stupid on my behalf to write something newThroughout the entire story (Dark Apprentice, at least) Exar Kun draws upon anger, and is in dire need of such. Where are these alleged "resources"? Why isn't the Golden Globe so much as mentioned? The only reference to such a thing is indirect, as Kun states that he had to "drain dry every last one of the Massassi". He doesn't say he accessed such afterwards, and there's no indication of anything you're suggesting. It's your turn now. Prove up.
And again, answered above: Unless you're trying to imply Palpatine and Yoda are weaker than Exar Kun's weakened form and Kyp Durron, where are you going with this?
You also questioned the relevance of me quoting a passage from Dark Apprentice, I'm fairly certain my intentions were clear. Which were to show evidence that Luke wasn't as "surprised" as you make him out to be, and still tried every skillful tactic he knew to escape the "clutches of doom", yet still couldn't do such.
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Your asinine assumptions imply that Yoda must've known all light side powers that were available during his day. This is totally unsupported nonsense, and bullshit at its finest. He may have searched for knowledge, but that doesn't mean he had to know Force Light, because the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook disagrees, as does logic in general.[/Quote]
Wow! Except for the knowledge Yoda:
A. Mastered all the knowledge he could
B. Was alive for close to 900 years before the Temple collapsed
C. Was known to frequently access holocrons.
D. Learned things and travelled to places so rare and remote, it was hardly believed they existed during his day.
Yeah, unsupported? Hardly.
Plus, he did not spend a full seven centuries gaining information, as one of your original points stated. In the same boat, my comparing Exar Kun and Freedon to Yoda and Yaddle was a perfectly valid explanation, and had a sound point behind it. Which would be that just because he had access to such, doesn't mean he knows it. Have you even looked at what I'm responding to? You acknowledged that I had a point when you stated "point moot". If there wasn't any crux to what I was saying, you would've (or should've) said it was irrelevant, instead of telling me it's invalid. Either way, it doesn't matter much, as what I said stand.
6.) No, Lightsnake, you haven't provided a shred of proof (quotes) suggesting that anyone aside from Lord Kaan had an amulet. Like Faunus stated, all you've given up so far is assorted bits of information, which aren't what I consider to be "proof". Proof would've been a quote, or passage that supports your claims. You've yet to do such, and this is speaking in regards to the New Sith era, and all the Sith Lords (and one Lady) who we were discussing. Just take a look, it's obvious your avoiding my question.
I never asked for proof that Darth Vader had a Sith amulet, in fact, I believe I said "I don't give a shit". Here's exactly what I wanted, and following that, I'll explain the implications:I wanted proof in the form of an excerpt from the material that anyone, save for Kaan, from the New Sith era had amulets. Darth Vader comes a thousand years later.
Originally posted by Kadesh
Sometimes i wonder why is advent so persistent on argueing >.> i remember getting owned strait away after only posting my opinions
So, you wonder why I argue against incorrect things? I don't like to see bullshit flung on the forums, as much is apparent by the fact I usually correct people on even minuscule details. As well, I don't ever like anyone trying to correct me, that pisses me off.
I'll get your "response" later, Lightsnake. Just to let you know.
