Captain America vs. Wolverine (Twist)

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
I didn't say it was a masterplan. But it WAS a plan

Why would they show the break between bubbles (implying that there is a break in Deadpool's talking) for any reason but to build up suspense?

It wasn't a snappy comeback.
It wasn't trashtalking.

Deadpool SAID he suckered Wolverine, then paused for suspense, and pointed out specifically HOW he suckered him when Wolverine was in position.

It wasn't a master plan. But it wasn't trash talking.

I'm not sure why there being a pause between "You" and "into" somehow equates into forethought. The pause was moment that Deadpool stabbed Wolverine. It was for suspense, if it was it would have been on a two page spread where you can see the entire fight in a glance, it would have come on the next page. The pause is you know when Deadpool stabbed Wolverine, the stop in the sentence denotes the action.

Deadpool didn't set Wolverine up into kicking him the face. He didn't predict that Wolverine would kick him in the face. Wolverine dropped kicked DP, and DP recovered faster then expected (maybe he rolled with the kick) and then he took advantage of Wolverine being in a postion where he couldn't defend and skewered him. How much forethough is involved in that? Thats all happened.

Originally posted by Soleran
Yup Hulk jumped at DP when DP was stnding in front of the sign then he moved and Hulk impaled himself.

No you can see the sign post while DD is still inside the store, which is after Hulk jumped. DD moved the sign into position while the Hulk was in mid leap.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Sure. Like I said:

You are right, the entire Marvel universe is wrong, and the fact that Deadpool has done it at least twice, on panel, means nothing.

He's done it zero times... try to keep up.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No you can see the sign post while DD is still inside the store, which is after Hulk jumped. DD moved the sign into position while the Hulk was in mid leap.

He's done it zero times... try to keep up.

If Deadpool can sucker Wolverine, Cap sure as the sky is blue won't have much problems - and your arguments that Deadpool didn't do it purposely isn't helping your arguments either, because all it proves is that Wolverine can be suckered by somebody who isn't even planning it (according to you), while Cap will CERTAINLY plan it - or would you now like to contest that as well?

Originally posted by Dreampanther
If Deadpool can sucker Wolverine, Cap sure as the sky is blue won't have much problems - and your arguments that Deadpool didn't do it purposely isn't helping your arguments either, because all it proves is that Wolverine can be suckered by somebody who isn't even planning it (according to you), while Cap will CERTAINLY plan it - or would you now like to contest that as well?

Have you ever been kicked in the head? The only reason Deadpool was able to recover fast enough to land a hit on a still airborne Wolverine is that (are you ready, this is going to be shocking... you might want brace your self)... he has a healing factor! 😱 Captain America doesn't.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He's done it zero times... try to keep up.

Uh huh, like I said:
"Deadpool is a liar? The writers are liars? The entire Marvel univers are liars?"

Because we are now in Wolverineverse...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I'm not sure why there being a pause between "You" and "into" somehow equates into forethought. The pause was moment that Deadpool stabbed Wolverine. It was for suspense, if it was it would have been on a two page spread where you can see the entire fight in a glance, it would have come on the next page. The pause is you know when Deadpool stabbed Wolverine, the stop in the sentence denotes the action.

Deadpool didn't set Wolverine up into kicking him the face. He didn't predict that Wolverine would kick him in the face. Wolverine dropped kicked DP, and DP recovered faster then expected (maybe he rolled with the kick) and then he took advantage of Wolverine being in a postion where he couldn't defend and skewered him. How much forethough is involved in that? Thats all happened.

nope

Your logic is faulty at best.

You seem to think that DP didn't have any forethought simply because it wasn't shown on a two page spread.

😬

The fact is , Deadpool wasn't going to say

"I can't believe how easily I suckered you into letting me gut you, which I'll do in one second"

He waited. He was planning on Wolverines moves, and he tricked him.

He said:

"I can't believe how easily I suckered you..."
Definitive pause
"Into opening yourself up for THIS!"

It wasn't phrased as trash talk. It wasn't phrased as a spontaneous comeback. It was phrased as DP carefully putting his plan into action.

Just because Wolverine lost a fight is no reason to start making up excuses and grasping at straws.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
nope

Your logic is faulty at best.

You seem to think that DP didn't have any forethought simply because it wasn't shown on a two page spread.

😬

The fact is , Deadpool wasn't going to say

"I can't believe how easily I suckered you into letting me gut you, which I'll do in one second"

He waited. He was planning on Wolverines moves, and he tricked him.

He said:

"I can't believe how easily I suckered you..."
Definitive pause
"Into opening yourself up for THIS!"

It wasn't phrased as trash talk. It wasn't phrased as a spontaneous comeback. It was phrased as DP carefully putting his plan into action.

Just because Wolverine lost a fight is no reason to start making up excuses and grasping at straws.

The moment after Wolverine kicked Deadpool in the face he knew he was going to stab him in the back. That much is true BUT what isn't true is that he suckered Wolverine into anything. For that to be true it would mean that he somehow manipulated Wolverine into drop kicking him. Do you think that Deadpool played Wolverine into playing that hand? There is nothing on the panel to suggest it, nothing in Deadpool's career would have me think he was cable of it. What happened is Wolverine kicked Deadpool in the face then made a smug comment. Deadpool, who's healing factor had allowed for a quick recover allowed him to seize and opening and lay down his response to Wolverine's comment. What don't you agree with? Do you believe that Deadpool planed on doing that to Wolverine form the start? If not then it was reactive, and yes, it was trash talking.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The moment after Wolverine kicked Deadpool in the face he know he was going to stab him in the back. That much is true BUT what isn't true is that he suckered Wolverine into anything. For that to be true it would mean that he somehow manipulated Wolverine into drop kicking him. Do you think that Deadpool played Wolverine into playing that hand? There is nothing on the panel to suggest it, nothing in Deadpool's career would have me think he was cable of it. What happened is Wolverine kicked Deadpool in the face then made a smug comment. Deadpool, who's healing factor had allowed for a quick recover allowed him to seize and opening and lay down his response to Wolverine's comment. What don't you agree with? Do you believe that Deadpool planed on doing that to Wolverine form the start? If not then it was reactive, and yes, it was trash talking.

doh

...No.

I believe it was Deadpool's intention as soon as he set himself up for the boot-to-the-face to sucker Wolverine.

You're taking what's given on panel, with nothing to dispute, and, because you like Wolverine, and don't want to see him lose, you start coming up with groundless theories.

It isn't the first time Deadpool's demonstrated strategy.
He's utilized tactics when fighting Taskmaster.
He's shown forethought when he brought down Wolverine with T-Rex level tranqs (that he had brought in advance)

You seem to think that jokes and insanity equate to stupidity.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
doh

...No.

I believe it was Deadpool's intention as soon as he set himself up for the boot-to-the-face to sucker Wolverine.

You're taking what's given on panel, with nothing to dispute, and, because you like Wolverine, and don't want to see him lose, you start coming up with groundless theories.

It isn't the first time Deadpool's demonstrated strategy.
He's utilized tactics when fighting Taskmaster.
He's shown forethought when he brought down Wolverine with T-Rex level tranqs (that he had brought in advance)

You seem to think that jokes and insanity equate to stupidity.

What makes you think it was ever Deadpool's intention to allow Wolverine to kick him in the face? His "plan" didn't come into being until after he got kicked in the face, he was just reacting to Wolverine. He wasn't thinking "Wolverine is going to kick me in the face... I'll take it on purpose and then stab him!" There would have been no way for him to predict that, especially considering Wolverine lunged with his claws drawn and switched into a drop kick at the last moment. Deadpool got kicked in the face because he wasn't got enough to avoid it.

Deadpool didn't use strategy against Taskmaster(or... more accuratlely he didn't use and forethought), he did his random routine and busted out some dance moves... and it just happened to work.

I'll give you the tranq fight but that was more of a throw back to the orginal more serious New Mutants, Deadpool. I figure Liefield pressured who ever was writing the issues into using that incarnation of Deadpool (who carried alot of gadgets with him). It was out of character but I just pretend it was because Wade was working for a genious criminal mastermind... and maybe he was willing to be more serious to save Theresa. But even then something went wrong in capturing Wolverine, we don't know how he ened up at that bar after he was tranq... but DP was still after him.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
What makes you think it was ever Deadpool's intention to allow Wolverine to kick him in the face? His "plan" didn't come into being until after he got kicked in the face, he was just reacting to Wolverine. He wasn't thinking "Wolverine is going to kick me in the face... I'll take it on purpose and then stab him!" There would have been no way for him to predict that, especially considering Wolverine lunged with his claws drawn and switched into a drop kick at the last moment. Deadpool got kicked in the face because he wasn't got enough to avoid it.

Deadpool didn't use strategy against Taskmaster(or... more accuratlely he didn't use and forethought), he did his random routine and busted out some dance moves... and it just happened to work.

I'll give you the tranq fight but that was more of a throw back to the orginal more serious New Mutants, Deadpool. I figure Liefield pressured who ever was writing the issues into using that incarnation of Deadpool (who carried alot of gadgets with him). It was out of character but I just pretend it was because Wade was working for a genious criminal mastermind... and maybe he was willing to be more serious to save Theresa. But even then something went wrong in capturing Wolverine, we don't know how he ened up at that bar after he was tranq... but DP was still after him.

Please allow me to help illustrate your point, how Deadpool can't think ahead or plan a battle... Since we are now in Opposite World, apparently, these should just be more hard evidence for your case that Deadpool has absolutely no sense of startegy or tactics.

Again, allow me this opportunity to congratulate you on the arguments you are making - the more you argue that Wolverine got suckered by Deadpool without Deadpool even planning it, the more you are substantiating my case that Cap will make mince-meat out of him.

So please, don't stop now...

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Please allow me to help illustrate your point, how Deadpool can't think ahead or plan a battle... Since we are now in Opposite World, apparently, these should just be more hard evidence for your case that Deadpool has absolutely no sense of startegy or tactics.

Again, allow me this opportunity to congratulate you on the arguments you are making - the more you argue that Wolverine got suckered by Deadpool without Deadpool even planning it, the more you are substantiating my case that Cap will make mince-meat out of him.

So please, don't stop now...

Do you really want me to explain this... *sigh* fine

Page 1, Panel 1 (Top left corner) Deadpool, who has been punched into a store window by the Hulk, plays with a Mannequin head

Page 1, Panel 2 (The big one in the center) Hulk - having just punched Wade into the store front - jumps after him

Page 1, Panel 3 (Bottom right) Deadpool sees a broken sign post out side the window

Page 2, Panel 1 (Top panel) Hulk is still in the air (off panel Deadpool is moving the sign from Page 1, Panel 3 into position)

Page 2, Panel 2 (Center panel) Same as previous

Page 2, Panel 3 (Bottome panel) Deadpool has moved the sign into place and Hulk, who is airborne and can't alter his momentum has no choice not to get impaled.

Once again, in this situation Deadpool didn't trick, sucker or manipulate his foe into doing anything, all he did is react to what they did do. There is no manipulation or master plan involved. Hulk was in the air before the sign post was moved into postion (you can see it is in a different place in Page 1, Panel 3 then Page 2, Panel 3).

If a boxer throws a jab but the other boxer recovers faster and lands a counter punch under his guard... is that "suckering" him in? Because that is what we are talking about here.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Once again, in this situation Deadpool didn't trick, sucker or manipulate his foe into doing anything, all he did is react to what they did do. There is no manipulation or master plan involved. Hulk was in the air before the sign post was moved into postion (you can see it is in a different place in Page 1, Panel 3 then Page 2, Panel 3).

If a boxer throws a jab but the other boxer recovers faster and lands a counter punch under his guard... is that "suckering" him in? Because that is what we are talking about here.

Again, thanks for illustrating Opposite World rules here - I'm a lost as the baby-sitter in a game of Calvinball. I'm having problems twisting and disregarding whatever appears on panel to suit my argument - but I'm sure learning from a master!

Deadpool clearly pauses, realising he needs a strategy to get what he wants from the Hulk, sees the pole OUTSIDE while he is INSIDE, says 'hmm', then, the next panel show him casually draped against the pole ouside, the Hulk in the air in one of his typical attacks - and Deadpool casually shifts out of the way, allowing Hulk to impale himself.

Deadpool NEVER shifted the pole, contrary to what you said, and clearly showed on the panel - therefore my admiration of your ability mis-represent what happens on panel.

Hulk wasn't in the air, when Deadpool saw the pole, quickly ran to it, and moved it to where Hulk would land - again, contrary to your statements. (Perhaps you are just mis-reading them?)

Instead, Deadpool thought of a plan, moved the fight outside, positioned himself in front of his trap, waited for Hulk to launch another predictable attack - and suckered him.

Same as he did to Wolverine.

Must be frustrating for you, I guess, having Deadpool sucker Wolverine as easy as he suckered Hulk (not the greatest strategist in the world, by all means), especially considering that Cap would therefore find it even easier. After all, he specialises exactly in this kind of thing...

Whats Hulk doing on the second panel of the first page? He is jumping. FACT

In the page directly before the first of the two post pages we see that Hulk is standing in front of the store and punches Deadpool directly into the window. FACT

As seen on the third panel of the second page, the broken sign/pipe is running parallel to the store front. FACT

Hulk, having jumped in the main panel on page 2(panel 2, remember?) is already in midair by the time Deadpool notices the sign from the window in panel 3 FACT

Having jumped directly towards Deadpool in a straight line from where he was standing prior to punching Deadpool it would be IMPOSSIBLE for Hulk to be impaled on a pipe running parallel to the store front and side walk. FACT

As the pipe was seen running parallel to the street AFTER the Hulk jumped, it would have needed to have been moved into position while Green Goliath is in midair.FACT

I don't how to make it any simpler for you. Should I write into in a nursery rhyme so even you can grasp what is happening? Christ, we are talking about McGuinness' art here, it isn't incredibly complicated or difficult to comprehend. 😠

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Whats Hulk doing on the second panel of the first page? He is jumping. [B]FACT

In the page directly before the first of the two post pages we see that Hulk is standing in front of the store and punches Deadpool directly into the window. FACT

As seen on the third panel of the second page, the broken sign/pipe is running parallel to the store front. FACT

Hulk, having jumped in the main panel on page 2(panel 2, remember?) is already in midair by the time Deadpool notices the sign from the window in panel 3 FACT

Having jumped directly towards Deadpool in a straight line from where he was standing prior to punching Deadpool it would be IMPOSSIBLE for Hulk to be impaled on a pipe running parallel to the store front and side walk. FACT

As the pipe was seen running parallel to the street AFTER the Hulk jumped, it would have needed to have been moved into position while Green Goliath is in midair.FACT

I don't how to make it any simpler for you. Should I write into in a nursery rhyme so even you can grasp what is happening? Christ, we are talking about McGuinness' art here, it isn't incredibly complicated or difficult to comprehend. 😠 [/B]

Uh huh.

Hulk knocks Deadpool through the window, into the building. He then jumps, according to you, towards Deadpool (who is now in the building, but let's come back to this later). Deadpool stands there, has a chat with the mannequin, looks out the window, has a bit of a monologue, then wanders BACK OUTSIDE, positions himself in fron of the pole, and waits for Hulk, who is still hanging in MID-AIR, according to you.

Never mind the fact that, according to you, Hulk jumped towards Deadpool in the building, and hung out in the air while Deadpool was wandering in and out of the building and having conversations with the mannequin - Hulk also somehow managed to turn himself around in mid-air, when he noticed Deadpool wasn't in the building anymore, and then landed back where he came from - according to you.

Brilliant. I applaud you.

It wouldn't make sense that Hulk knocked Deadpool into the building, Deadpool then thought of the trap, went outside, waited for Hulk to charge him again and then suckered him.

Oh no, your version, with Hulk hanging around in mid-air and then turning around in the middle of the jump makes much more sense.

Now I can see why you argue for Wolverine...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The moment after Wolverine kicked Deadpool in the face he knew he was going to stab him in the back. That much is true BUT what isn't true is that he suckered Wolverine into anything. For that to be true it would mean that he somehow manipulated Wolverine into drop kicking him. Do you think that Deadpool played Wolverine into playing that hand? There is nothing on the panel to suggest it, nothing in Deadpool's career would have me think he was cable of it. What happened is Wolverine kicked Deadpool in the face then made a smug comment. Deadpool, who's healing factor had allowed for a quick recover allowed him to seize and opening and lay down his response to Wolverine's comment. What don't you agree with? Do you believe that Deadpool planed on doing that to Wolverine form the start? If not then it was reactive, and yes, it was trash talking.

jeezus christ listen to srank dammit.... he knows what he's talking about...

look, dp didn't know wolverine was going to drop kick him in the face... why you ask?

simple because when wovlerine started that leap he started CLAWS FIRST..... in mid leap wolverine when from clawing position to a kicking one, and dp like srank said, took advantage of the situation...

that fight's a horrible example of anyone having superior skill to wolverine.... dp took 3 hits that would have been fatal to anyone else before that "sucker" shot even took place. 😬

edit..nevermind..

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
What makes you think it was ever Deadpool's intention to allow Wolverine to kick him in the face? His "plan" didn't come into being until after he got kicked in the face, he was just reacting to Wolverine. He wasn't thinking "Wolverine is going to kick me in the face... I'll take it on purpose and then stab him!" There would have been no way for him to predict that, especially considering Wolverine lunged with his claws drawn and switched into a drop kick at the last moment. Deadpool got kicked in the face because he wasn't got enough to avoid it.

Deadpool didn't use strategy against Taskmaster(or... more accuratlely he didn't use and forethought), he did his random routine and busted out some dance moves... and it just happened to work.

I'll give you the tranq fight but that was more of a throw back to the orginal more serious New Mutants, Deadpool. I figure Liefield pressured who ever was writing the issues into using that incarnation of Deadpool (who carried alot of gadgets with him). It was out of character but I just pretend it was because Wade was working for a genious criminal mastermind... and maybe he was willing to be more serious to save Theresa. But even then something went wrong in capturing Wolverine, we don't know how he ened up at that bar after he was tranq... but DP was still after him.

What makes me think that?

Well, as a comic book reader who DOESN'T take to underestimating Deadpool and downplaying his feats, when I read ON PANEL with NO dispute from Wolverine or anything for that matter, I wasn't about to twist it around on a groundless theory based on my own rabid Wolverine-fanboyism.

😬

C'mon Srank. Surley you can come up with a better argument then having to disregard evidence and twist everything around to suit your own needs.

Deadpool DID use strategy. Deadpool often uses a particular style of fighting- when that style was used against him, and he had no form of countering it, he used strategy and made a completley DIFFERENT style.

As for the Hulk fight, let's examine facts again, since you seem so fond of those

FACT Deadpool saw the sign BEFORE Hulk leapt
FACT The sign was NOT straight, but it WAS connected to the ground, at a convinient angle for Hulk to impae himself if he was TRICKED
FACT BEFORE Hulk leapt, Deadpool was already talking about needing to formulate a plan. I would think that would be an excellent example of using forethought
FACT Deadpool was standing IN FRONT of the sign BEFORE Hulk leapt. (Otherwise, Hulk would have leapt at a different spot, and not have impaled himself. He leapt at the sign because Deadpool was standing in front of it)

So now, let's put 2+2+2+2 together, shall we?
-Deadpool talks about needing to formulate a plan (showing forethought)
-Hulk hasn't leapt yet
-Deadpool sees the sign (and goes "hmmm", obviously thinking about a plan and once AGAIN demonstrating forethought)
-The sign is connected to the ground, at an angle (I'd guess 60 degrees, but I'm not an estimating pro)
-Hulk STILL hasn't leapt yet
-Deadpool by now has formulated his plan (do I need to say forethought ? ), and stands in front of the sign
-Hulk leaps towards Deadpool
-Deadpool moves, thus revealing the sign
-Hulk is impaled. Deadpools plan (and FORETHOUGHT) worked.

As for you, Jinzin, we aren't talking about fighting skill. That's a whole 'nother debate. But, just to clear it up, that battle is not a good argument for Wolverine > Deadpool either, seeing as Deadpool knew he had his HF working, and thus was willing to take a blow or two.

Do you honestly believe he would make the same moves if the roles were switched, and DP's HF wasn't working?

Now Srank... evidence has been posted, and your arguments are based entirley on faulty logic, self interpretation and twisted on-panel evidence.

Deadpool demonstrated tactics that fight, in the Hulk fight, and Wolverine fell prey.

Captain America is, needless to say, a far superior tactician to Deadpool. So he has the tactical edge in this battle.

Has Wolverine demonstrated tactics in the past? Of course. Has he fallen prey to them in the past? Of course.

Could Wolverine still win this battle with Cap? Probably... but he won't have the tactical edge.

😉

Originally posted by Soleran
Yeah right there and I pointed out that Captain is larger and heavier then Wolverine so they do have the same strength and it's based off their bodyweight one to two times Cap's advantage on strength and reach.🙂

You are correct. This is how I interpretted it. I thought capt did, too. Guess not.

They're both at "Athlete" strength level. Given Cap's slight size advantage, he also has a slight strength advantage. As well as reach.

It's not like 40 lbs. is a big deal anyway. In fact, that kind of strength advantage really shouldn't matter with these two. Just my opinion.

Originally posted by capt it up
also it supose to be a skills match I think metal max made a mistake. since he kept saying it a skills match through otu the thread.

capt weights 240

logan wieghts 295.

Logan weighs 200 lbs without adamantium.

I think the main point is that Wolverine in general does not show enough skill to beat Cap...period.

As Soljer put it snikt rawr!

Originally posted by capt it up
Not real fair to strip one character of his powers and send him into battle with another with out giving him time. Also I assume he was given enough time to be use to his abilities. Also the whole thread is based off fighting skills in which I feel logan is more skilled not to mention has far more experience.

Not quite. I also stripped Cap of his superhuman abilities. I didn't do any one-sided stripping of powers here. I put them both at the level of "Athlete". That's downgrading BOTH of them.

That said, Cap is the more skilled and thus the victor.