Originally posted by yestinchong
So, now that i understand your POV a little more clearly, i'm gonna ask you another question if you don't mind.Let's forget the Magneto/Storm fight for a moment. How do you explain how either she or him get hit without being aware? Can you come up with any rational explanation for that?
🙄 Not this again.
You explain to me why.
Originally posted by 2damnloud
Better.Yea, That's what I'm saying.
Would it be reasonable to say if Storm has a handful 10's, some 1's and 2's, but far more 5's, 6's, and 7's than either of the other extremes combined, then Storm's normal level of operation is in the middle area and the 10's and 1's are extreme high points and low points? Or are you under the flag that doing a few high feats counts as "enough times", against 40 years of history, to qualify as a character's normal operating level?
Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
But what about all the instances of 1-through-7-dom?Would it be reasonable to say if Storm has a handful 10's, some 1's and 2's, but far more 5's, 6's, and 7's than either of the other extremes combined, then Storm's normal level of operation is in the middle area and the 10's and 1's are extreme high points and low points? Or are you under the flag that doing a few high feats counts as "enough times", against 40 years of history, to qualify as a character's normal operating level?
That's the thing. Her "high feats" were "normal operating level."
She's just powerful.
Originally posted by 2damnloud
🙄 Not this again.You explain to me why.
Sure, if you don't want to play ball, i'll answer. It "could" be PIS. Or, it could be the fact that Magneto and Storm aren't as all powerful as we think they might be.
If a character's highest showing is tempered by a very low one then how do we work out exactly how powerful that character is?
You've taken the stance that the highest showing is the proof of the pudding, no matter what the lowest showing is. You've stated that as much.
So what i want to ask is WHY is this particular train of thought of yours correct?
Why can't anyone else's ideas be correct? Why isn't it possible that in fact what she did when she summoned the powers of a galactic core (or whatever it was) was PIS? After reading through the forum rules again, i'm beginning to think that this particular instance was a case of SvFL. That's just an opinion mind you, but maybe people will agree with me on that. Maybe they won't....i'm pretty sure you won't.
Is it because Claremont said so? Well, surprise surprise, Claremont also showed Storm getting punked by Magneto when he chucked Colossus at her in that scan someone put up. It doesn't matter that she might have had him nearly beaten just prior to this - he still did it. Unsurprisingly, Claremont has also written issues where Storm has been sneaked up on by Wolverine, Sauron, Arcade (or someone working for him)...he's also written stories where she has been hit by Cyclops, Hellfire Club androids, Sebastian Shaw....
Hell, he's even written once in an old story that Cyclops is a better leader than Storm - she states that as clear as day in the beginning of the issue. So perish the thought, if we ever started a thread saying who was the better leader of the two, we would have to disregard all of Scott's/Ororo's previous victories/failings and get to the root point that Storm stated, "You are the best". Ergo Cyclops is better 😄
And you know what....if Chris Claremont has inconsistency issues, then it shows that even the best writers can get stuck with this flaw.
Once again, i get the feeling you're either going to dismiss everything i've written or claim it's illogical for me to say it's reasonable to try and look at a character's showings as a whole and then to temper an opinion from it. I suspect the terms fallacy, straw and illogial may occur in your answer somewhere....although perhaps i'm just being flippant now.
Anyway, i'm gonna turn your comment on its head and say it's just as illogical to take one highest showing, ignore any other weaker ones, and assume that the character is uber-powerful. Again, this sounds like SvFL to me. To me, what you are stating is faulty logic.
Basically, neither you nor me (nor anyone else on this board) can PROVE 100% they are right. That is why i find it quite it frustrating when you appear not to be looking at other people's opinions and stating that they are illogical. It's illogical in your eyes (and probably Rutog's), but neither you or me can prove who is right. Do you not agree with that?
And you know what? Just in case you do say i am using straw man logic, or whatever it is, i'm just going to accuse you of exactly the same right here and now in response. Neither of us can prove that.
Originally posted by yestinchong
Sure, if you don't want to play ball, i'll answer. It "could" be PIS. Or, it could be the fact that Magneto and Storm aren't as all powerful as we think they might be.If a character's highest showing is tempered by a very low one then how do we work out exactly how powerful that character is?
You've taken the stance that the highest showing is the proof of the pudding, no matter what the lowest showing is. You've stated that as much.
So what i want to ask is WHY is this particular train of thought of yours correct?
Why can't anyone else's ideas be correct? Why isn't it possible that in fact what she did when she summoned the powers of a galactic core (or whatever it was) was PIS? After reading through the forum rules again, i'm beginning to think that this particular instance was a case of SvFL. That's just an opinion mind you, but maybe people will agree with me on that. Maybe they won't....i'm pretty sure you won't.
Is it because Claremont said so? Well, surprise surprise, Claremont also showed Storm getting punked by Magneto when he chucked Colossus at her in that scan someone put up. It doesn't matter that she might have had him nearly beaten just prior to this - he still did it. Unsurprisingly, Claremont has also written issues where Storm has been sneaked up on by Wolverine, Sauron, Arcade (or someone working for him)...he's also written stories where she has been hit by Cyclops, Hellfire Club androids, Sebastian Shaw....
Hell, he's even written once in an old story that Cyclops is a better leader than Storm - she states that as clear as day in the beginning of the issue. So perish the thought, if we ever started a thread saying who was the better leader of the two, we would have to disregard all of Scott's/Ororo's previous victories/failings and get to the root point that Storm stated, "You are the best". Ergo Cyclops is better 😄
And you know what....if Chris Claremont has inconsistency issues, then it shows that even the best writers can get stuck with this flaw.
Once again, i get the feeling you're either going to dismiss everything i've written or claim it's illogical for me to say it's reasonable to try and look at a character's showings as a whole and then to temper an opinion from it. I suspect the terms fallacy, straw and illogial may occur in your answer somewhere....although perhaps i'm just being flippant now.
Anyway, i'm gonna turn your comment on its head and say it's just as illogical to take one highest showing, ignore any other weaker ones, and assume that the character is uber-powerful. Again, this sounds like SvFL to me. To me, what you are stating is faulty logic.
Basically, neither you nor me (nor anyone else on this board) can PROVE 100% they are right. That is why i find it quite it frustrating when you appear not to be looking at other people's opinions and stating that they are illogical. It's illogical in your eyes (and probably Rutog's), but neither you or me can prove who is right. Do you not agree with that?
And you know what? Just in case you do say i am using straw man logic, or whatever it is, i'm just going to accuse you of exactly the same right here and now in response. Neither of us can prove that.
I only call logical fallacies when they are used.
Bloodlust
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first picosecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels
The problem is some of you don't understand how Storm's powers work, When explained you weasel a way to minimize it.
Originally posted by 2damnloud
I only call logical fallacies when they are used.Bloodlust
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first picosecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levelsThe problem is some of you don't understand how Storm's powers work, When explained you weasel a way to minimize it.
^^^
Straw man logic.
It's my turn to copy and paste something from the rules....
No SvFL
Spiderman vs. Firelord, or SvFL, is a shorthand that refers to any time when a character performs a feat that their powers and skills should be blatantly insufficient for, and is not repeated or is rarely repeated again relative to the character's overall established career, as well as the character's opponents' established showings. In statistical terms, it is an outlier, something that is radically beyond the character's established capabilities. For example, Spiderman defeating a herald of Galactus is a case of the SvFL exemption; however, Batman being able to sneak up on Superman is not because he has done so frequently under different writers.
For standard debates, feats considered to fall under the SvFL exemption are not valid. Likewise, examples of writing which go against firmly set canon are also ignored. For example, in Larry Hama's run of Batman and Grell's run of Iron Man, both characters were out of character and did things very much against established canon; therefore those runs are disregarded.
So how many times has Storm summoned the power of a Galactic core then? Do you think she has done it enough times to prove she is consistently on that power level? From what i can see, she has only pulled off this feat once. See, i'm perfectly willing to agree that she can read the energy patterns on Earth, create extremely powerful weather patterns and affect huge areas of land in the process. I also happen to think that Storm is an exceptionally gifted warrior, leader, and fighter. I also believe, that given sufficient time (and i guess that's why you stipulated 3 days prep), she could create a pressure dome that could cut through mountains and create winds strong enough to hold a building up. What we cannot quanitfy is how long it would take her to do such things, as the instances in the comics when he HAS done them do not say how long it took.
With regards to you saying she can deflect Phoenix level blasts - well, for one, i think it's open to debate whether or not Sienna's blasts are AS powerful in overall strength as a PF blast. The text (which sits in front of me as i own the comic) is not clear and is open to interpretation. You believe it is. Swanky Tuna doesn't. I haven't made up my mind on that one yet.
However, what i can tell you is that in the later pages where Sienna's blast is funnelled upwards, Storm does NOT do it on her own. Prof X helped fool Sienna in the 1st place, she was knocked back and buried in the side of an ice glacier, and Cyclops was protecting them from excess energy.
What you, me, Swanky....anyone really, doesn't know, is HOW MUCH energy was being funnelled up by Storm. For all you know, only 5% of that blast was funnelled up, 10% was absorbed by the ice, and Scott did the rest. Or it could 90% Storm. Or 80% ice. Nobody knows because it wasn't stated. If you want to use this as an example of Storm's capabilities, you need to know exactly what she did in that feat. Otherwise it's not proof. And you don't know. Nobody does. I know that is being picky, but i'm only applying your logic in arguments to back up my point. Because if you don't accept your own logic, i'm gonna tell you that actually, it was Cyclops that protected them from >90% of Sienna's blast.
Now, it IS stated as clear as day that she summoned the power of a core. So i have no problems in agreeing in that. But again, i don't see her pulling Galactic Cores out of her powerset on a regular basis. And in reality, the "established capabilities" that the forum rules state are more likely to point at her being a very powerful mutant, and certainly NOT anything at herald level. And once again, bring up Claremont and i'll just re-quote what i wrote in my previous message.
Let's flip your comment again. For someone who is a Storm fan, i really think you don't understand how her powers work. When explained to you, you weasel a way to maximise them.
And as a side question, the comment i made in jest about Storm Vs. Cyclops as a better leader. By your logic, you would have to concede he is better. Do you?
Originally posted by yestinchong
^^^Straw man logic.
It's my turn to copy and paste something from the rules....
No SvFL
Spiderman vs. Firelord, or SvFL, is a shorthand that refers to any time when a character performs a feat that their powers and skills should be blatantly insufficient for, and is not repeated or is rarely repeated again relative to the character's overall established career, as well as the character's opponents' established showings. In statistical terms, it is an outlier, something that is radically beyond the character's established capabilities. For example, Spiderman defeating a herald of Galactus is a case of the SvFL exemption; however, Batman being able to sneak up on Superman is not because he has done so frequently under different writers.
For standard debates, feats considered to fall under the SvFL exemption are not valid. Likewise, examples of writing which go against firmly set canon are also ignored. For example, in Larry Hama's run of Batman and Grell's run of Iron Man, both characters were out of character and did things very much against established canon; therefore those runs are disregarded.So how many times has Storm summoned the power of a Galactic core then? Do you think she has done it enough times to prove she is consistently on that power level? From what i can see, she has only pulled off this feat once. See, i'm perfectly willing to agree that she can read the energy patterns on Earth, create extremely powerful weather patterns and affect huge areas of land in the process. I also happen to think that Storm is an exceptionally gifted warrior, leader, and fighter. I also believe, that given sufficient time (and i guess that's why you stipulated 3 days prep), she could create a pressure dome that could cut through mountains and create winds strong enough to hold a building up. What we cannot quanitfy is how long it would take her to do such things, as the instances in the comics when he HAS done them do not say how long it took.
With regards to you saying she can deflect Phoenix level blasts - well, for one, i think it's open to debate whether or not Sienna's blasts are AS powerful in overall strength as a PF blast. The text (which sits in front of me as i own the comic) is not clear and is open to interpretation. You believe it is. Swanky Tuna doesn't. I haven't made up my mind on that one yet.
However, what i can tell you is that in the later pages where Sienna's blast is funnelled upwards, Storm does NOT do it on her own. Prof X helped fool Sienna in the 1st place, she was knocked back and buried in the side of an ice glacier, and Cyclops was protecting them from excess energy.
What you, me, Swanky....anyone really, doesn't know, is HOW MUCH energy was being funnelled up by Storm. For all you know, only 5% of that blast was funnelled up, 10% was absorbed by the ice, and Scott did the rest. Or it could 90% Storm. Or 80% ice. Nobody knows because it wasn't stated. If you want to use this as an example of Storm's capabilities, you need to know exactly what she did in that feat. Otherwise it's not proof. And you don't know. Nobody does. I know that is being picky, but i'm only applying your logic in arguments to back up my point. Because if you don't accept your own logic, i'm gonna tell you that actually, it was Cyclops that protected them from >90% of Sienna's blast.
Now, it IS stated as clear as day that she summoned the power of a core. So i have no problems in agreeing in that. But again, i don't see her pulling Galactic Cores out of her powerset on a regular basis. And in reality, the "established capabilities" that the forum rules state are more likely to point at her being a very powerful mutant, and certainly NOT anything at herald level. And once again, bring up Claremont and i'll just re-quote what i wrote in my previous message.
Let's flip your comment again. For someone who is a Storm fan, i really think you don't understand how her powers work. When explained to you, you weasel a way to maximise them.
And as a side question, the comment i made in jest about Storm Vs. Cyclops as a better leader. By your logic, you would have to concede he is better. Do you?
Oh, so you argue obtuseness. "We don't know anyhting about anything" 😆
I'll break your post down 2morrow.
No, not at all. I said i agreed that Storm could summon the power of a galactic core because it was stated on panel.
You can't say how much of Sienna's blast was being funnelled because it wasn't said so on panel. How is that obtusel?
And if you don't agree, then fine, i'm taking the stance that in actual fact, it was Cyclops that did 90% of the work in that scan.
Please do break it down tomorrow. I should probably get some sleep myself.
Originally posted by yestinchong
Sure, if you don't want to play ball, i'll answer. It "could" be PIS. Or, it could be the fact that Magneto and Storm aren't as all powerful as we think they might be.
🙄 Or, it could be that they're characters within a comic and like any story, getting knocked down only to rise up again speaks to the human condition and makes for a great read.
It's the same logic that Swanky used.--If they get knocked down, then they must not be powerful. WRONG.
Nothing about getting knocked down speaks to power.
They are powerful, not infalable. Even the most powerful characters go through "falls".
Originally posted by yestinchongIf a character's highest showing is tempered by a very low one then how do we work out exactly how powerful that character is?
You've taken the stance that the highest showing is the proof of the pudding, no matter what the lowest showing is. You've stated that as much.
So what i want to ask is WHY is this particular train of thought of yours correct?
Well it comes down to opinion.
I personally think that storm is more powerful than Magneto with regard to how her powers work. Storm's powers can work by manipulating the energies that govern the universe on a quantum level. She has on enough occasions used these powers to manipulated Celestial energies, weather on other planets and in other dimensions. These are not feats, these are the way her powers work. The Galactic core was as simple as absorbing energy from the earth to manipulate the weather. Whereever she is, she seems to have access to governing forces. All it takes is attunement, and she has total control. Whether this is suspended for a certain reason is irrelevant. It has been shown that is the way her powers work. You can't seperate a character from itself. Controling things in the ways mentioned IS Storm.
Storm also seems to have infinite possibilites as well.
Again, characters fall, find themselves in tight spots etc. It STILL doesn't negate the nature of the character.
Originally posted by yestinchong
Why can't anyone else's ideas be correct? Why isn't it possible that in fact what she did when she summoned the powers of a galactic core (or whatever it was) was PIS? After reading through the forum rules again, i'm beginning to think that this particular instance was a case of SvFL. That's just an opinion mind you, but maybe people will agree with me on that. Maybe they won't....i'm pretty sure you won't.
Ok, again refer the the above quote. It's the way her powers work. It's well within her capabilities. The panel even said it was as simple as manipulating weather on earth. In the following issue she also manipulates empty space the same way. She manipulated the solar winds like she does winds on earth(not scientific 😆 ).
It's her power. Accept it please.
I know people can finish this sentence: "She views the weather as......"
I think that's where people get screwed up with the Storm thing. They relagate her as a weather manipulater, yet don't want to delve into the WAY in which she's goes about it, even though it's been described on panel time and time again. 🙄
Originally posted by yestinchongIs it because Claremont said so? Well, surprise surprise, Claremont also showed Storm getting punked by Magneto when he chucked Colossus at her in that scan someone put up. It doesn't matter that she might have had him nearly beaten just prior to this - he still did it. Unsurprisingly, Claremont has also written issues where Storm has been sneaked up on by Wolverine, Sauron, Arcade (or someone working for him)...he's also written stories where she has been hit by Cyclops, Hellfire Club androids, Sebastian Shaw....
Hell, he's even written once in an old story that Cyclops is a better leader than Storm - she states that as clear as day in the beginning of the issue. So perish the thought, if we ever started a thread saying who was the better leader of the two, we would have to disregard all of Scott's/Ororo's previous victories/failings and get to the root point that Storm stated, "You are the best". Ergo Cyclops is better 😄
And you know what....if Chris Claremont has inconsistency issues, then it shows that even the best writers can get stuck with this flaw.
Once again, i get the feeling you're either going to dismiss everything i've written or claim it's illogical for me to say it's reasonable to try and look at a character's showings as a whole and then to temper an opinion from it. I suspect the terms fallacy, straw and illogial may occur in your answer somewhere....although perhaps i'm just being flippant now.
Anyway, i'm gonna turn your comment on its head and say it's just as illogical to take one highest showing, ignore any other weaker ones, and assume that the character is uber-powerful. Again, this sounds like SvFL to me. To me, what you are stating is faulty logic.
Basically, neither you nor me (nor anyone else on this board) can PROVE 100% they are right. That is why i find it quite it frustrating when you appear not to be looking at other people's opinions and stating that they are illogical. It's illogical in your eyes (and probably Rutog's), but neither you or me can prove who is right. Do you not agree with that?
And you know what? Just in case you do say i am using straw man logic, or whatever it is, i'm just going to accuse you of exactly the same right here and now in response. Neither of us can prove that.
Remninder: This Bloodlust with no Blood rip though 😛
Again, you need to re-evaluate my argument. Never said Storm was infailable(that would make for a boring character).
She is powerful, not infalable.
Also, you need to know that editors do have a HUGE hand in how a character may be portrayed.....I'll just leave it at that.
Claremont has the most consistent visoion for Storm. I'm glad he may have written her "falling" in some way. It still doesn't detract from her power though. It's almost the Denying the Antecendant fallacy.
She may faint, get knocked down etc. It doesn't negate her power. It just reaffirms her humanity and the fact that she is more powerful when she get's back up again.
Originally posted by yestinchong
^^^Straw man logic.
It's my turn to copy and paste something from the rules....
No SvFL
Spiderman vs. Firelord, or SvFL, is a shorthand that refers to any time when a character performs a feat that their powers and skills should be blatantly insufficient for, and is not repeated or is rarely repeated again relative to the character's overall established career, as well as the character's opponents' established showings. In statistical terms, it is an outlier, something that is radically beyond the character's established capabilities. For example, Spiderman defeating a herald of Galactus is a case of the SvFL exemption; however, Batman being able to sneak up on Superman is not because he has done so frequently under different writers.
For standard debates, feats considered to fall under the SvFL exemption are not valid. Likewise, examples of writing which go against firmly set canon are also ignored. For example, in Larry Hama's run of Batman and Grell's run of Iron Man, both characters were out of character and did things very much against established canon; therefore those runs are disregarded.So how many times has Storm summoned the power of a Galactic core then? Do you think she has done it enough times to prove she is consistently on that power level? From what i can see, she has only pulled off this feat once. See, i'm perfectly willing to agree that she can read the energy patterns on Earth, create extremely powerful weather patterns and affect huge areas of land in the process. I also happen to think that Storm is an exceptionally gifted warrior, leader, and fighter. I also believe, that given sufficient time (and i guess that's why you stipulated 3 days prep), she could create a pressure dome that could cut through mountains and create winds strong enough to hold a building up. What we cannot quanitfy is how long it would take her to do such things, as the instances in the comics when he HAS done them do not say how long it took.
With regards to you saying she can deflect Phoenix level blasts - well, for one, i think it's open to debate whether or not Sienna's blasts are AS powerful in overall strength as a PF blast. The text (which sits in front of me as i own the comic) is not clear and is open to interpretation. You believe it is. Swanky Tuna doesn't. I haven't made up my mind on that one yet.
However, what i can tell you is that in the later pages where Sienna's blast is funnelled upwards, Storm does NOT do it on her own. Prof X helped fool Sienna in the 1st place, she was knocked back and buried in the side of an ice glacier, and Cyclops was protecting them from excess energy.
What you, me, Swanky....anyone really, doesn't know, is HOW MUCH energy was being funnelled up by Storm. For all you know, only 5% of that blast was funnelled up, 10% was absorbed by the ice, and Scott did the rest. Or it could 90% Storm. Or 80% ice. Nobody knows because it wasn't stated. If you want to use this as an example of Storm's capabilities, you need to know exactly what she did in that feat. Otherwise it's not proof. And you don't know. Nobody does. I know that is being picky, but i'm only applying your logic in arguments to back up my point. Because if you don't accept your own logic, i'm gonna tell you that actually, it was Cyclops that protected them from >90% of Sienna's blast.
Now, it IS stated as clear as day that she summoned the power of a core. So i have no problems in agreeing in that. But again, i don't see her pulling Galactic Cores out of her powerset on a regular basis. And in reality, the "established capabilities" that the forum rules state are more likely to point at her being a very powerful mutant, and certainly NOT anything at herald level. And once again, bring up Claremont and i'll just re-quote what i wrote in my previous message.
Let's flip your comment again. For someone who is a Storm fan, i really think you don't understand how her powers work. When explained to you, you weasel a way to maximise them.
And as a side question, the comment i made in jest about Storm Vs. Cyclops as a better leader. By your logic, you would have to concede he is better. Do you?
ALL of this has already been covered. 😘 Most of it is actually covered in my preceeding post.
Sienna Blaze was Phoenix level blast. Says so on panel. Same affect, energy signature, actually though it WAS from Phoenix. Any other interpretation is desperate.
Storm directed the young woman's power upward, Cyclops blocked the excess energy. Storm directed. It is stated on panel. Anything else is desperate.
Blah blah blah.........blah. Eveything has been convered. 🙄
So it begins...