Of what? A pointless occourance? I don't recally any emphasis placed on history beyond Egypt existed and a famine happened.
The glory went to god. You're telling me that there is NO moral in a story about how brothers try to kill one of their own, how god saves him, and how god brings political glory to men who profess his name (who can thencome back and show his borthers the error of thier ways?
Originally posted by Alliance
Of what? A pointless occourance? I don't recally any emphasis placed on history beyond Egypt existed and a famine happened.The glory went to god. You're telling me that there is NO moral in a story about how brothers try to kill one of their own, how god saves him, and how god brings political glory to men who profess his name (who can thencome back and show his borthers the error of thier ways?
Originally posted by AllianceIt is simply a historic account of the history of the Jewish people. Every patriarch has his story told and that one is simply Joseph's. It may have a moral, but the moral is far seperated from Jacob having two wives and as the Bible never condones the actions of Jacob xyz makes a poor argument.
Of what? A pointless occourance? I don't recally any emphasis placed on history beyond Egypt existed and a famine happened.The glory went to god. You're telling me that there is NO moral in a story about how brothers try to kill one of their own, how god saves him, and how god brings political glory to men who profess his name (who can thencome back and show his borthers the error of thier ways?
Originally posted by NellinatorCan you show me these flood legends?
Also, you know absolutely about the story of Joseph. It is not a moral, so you should probably stop talking. And yet ancient cultures all over the world all have flood legends... Since you obviously know nothing about this please do not comment on it. Also, that didn't damage anything considering there is anthropological evidence for it and it never made the world blind and you once again show your complete ignorance on the subject of Christian history.
Originally posted by EisWell, apart from leading an army, that's the only one being used.
I doubt anyone here thinks "Islam is evil because Muhammed had a nine year old wife" it is more of a challenge to Muslim people's faith. How could god's prophet behave in a way that many (probably most) muslims today, very much disagree with.
Originally posted by lord xyz
Can you show me these flood legends?
Start with Tablet XI of the Epic of Gilgamesh. It compares very nicely with the Noah flood story in Genesis(and pre-dates it, at least in terms of invention). Now, how we untangle myth with what actually happened is not my area of specialty, but myths often have some factual basis to them...which I believe was what you originally called into question with the Bible?
Originally posted by Nellinator
It is simply a historic account of the history of the Jewish people. Every patriarch has his story told and that one is simply Joseph's. It may have a moral, but the moral is far seperated from Jacob having two wives and as the Bible never condones the actions of Jacob xyz makes a poor argument.
I missed that last part 😮 However, if God can wipe out entire cities for sinfullness, why cant he strike down the surplus wives. (isn't polygamy also demonstrated by men other than Jacob?)
Here's what I wrote anyway 13
Gilgamesh and the Biblical flood are very similar. However, other culture's flood myths don't line up so lightly. It would be a stretch, Nell, to say that because every culture has a flood myth, the world flooded and one God (yours) did it.
Obviously a flood could be a traumatic event for a civilization and they would write a myth about it. Floods happen everywhere. Women are mentioned in the Bible, does that mean the Bible is merely a historical text?
As far as Joseph. "and the LORD was with him"
"and the LORD was with him"
"and the LORD was with him"
"45:7 And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance.
45:8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.
45:9 Haste ye, and go up to my father, and say unto him, Thus saith thy son Joseph, God hath made me lord of all Egypt: come down unto me, tarry not"
Whats the moral? God has a plan. God rewards the good with earthly pleasures like power and pretty cups. God is to make you humble.
Its CERTAINLY not a historical account. You could make an argument for it being Joseph's personal history, but its not presented as a historical account.
Originally posted by Alliance
So. How does this relate to ISLAM.Proof? I don't inhale shit like you do.
As un, unfortunately, too many countries.Ok. And are honor killings stoning or what? You and I both know that honor killings extend beyond stoning.
And HOW can you draw conclusions based on a few RECORDINGS. Thats exceedingly unacademic.
SHOW ME THE LINK. Show me where, in the Quran, Hadiths, etc, WHERE honor killings are justified in Islam.
These things happen elsewhere. ANd why couldn't a woman choose to wear the burka herself. Forcing it is wrong, but just because a woman chooses to wear one does not make her an abused victim.
You are too ignorant to actually objectively analyze whats going on. Any single instance of poor behavior that happens to be in a predominately Muslim county is MAGICALLY the fault of Islam.
Get a soul and a sense general sense of decency. Then we can worry about your brain. And apparently your books are useless because not only do you ignore passages, like those that Fatima posted or they are written by reactionary ideologues.
Lazy ignorance.
You're on the internet. Do your own goddamned research.
Too lazy to learn Islam, and too lazy to read Amnesty International.
If you don't know anything of the movements of Amnesty Interntaional about abuse of women in Middle East, or about action to stop honour killings, if you don't know Human Rights Watch, than your ignorance is not my problem. Educate yourself. You are embarrassing.
Poorf that honor killings are in Islamic countries and Islamic societies only? Honor killings in Islamic countries, and Islamic communities, and are NOT RECORDED anywhere else in the WORLD.
Shall I simplify it for you - There is no record of such a thing as a honour killing in any other community, or country in the world, apart from Islamic countries, or Islamic comunities.
Stoning, beheading, hangings are all METHODS of honour killings.
It isn't me ''not having facts''' its you not knowing them.
I showed you the link and the passages from Hadiths and Qur'an few pages back, or are you just too challenged with reading it?!
We also showed you the passages of Qur'an which advocate murder, killing of infidels, wife beating and Muhammad sleeping with 9 year old, but you convininantly ignored them.
Sicne when do you care about what Qur'an says? Right. Only when you THINK you're right.
ukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 196:
Narrated Abu Huraira: A man from Bani Aslam came to Allah's Apostle while he was in the mosque and called (the Prophet ) saying, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." On that the Prophet turned his face from him to the other side, whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and repeated his statement. The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side again. The man moved again (and repeated his statement) for the fourth time. So when the man had given witness four times against himself, the Prophet called him and said, "Are you insane?" He replied, "No." The Prophet then said (to his companions), "Go and stone him to death." The man was a married one. Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari said: I was one of those who stoned him. We stoned him at the Musalla ('Id praying place) in Medina. When the stones hit him with their sharp edges, he fled, but we caught him at Al-Harra and stoned him till he died.
(See also Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 195.)Sahi Buchari: 8:6814:
Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah al-Ansari: “A man from the tribe of Bani Aslam came to Allah’s Messenger [Muhammad] and informed him that he had committed illegal sexual intercourse; and he bore witness four times against himself. Allah’s Messenger ordered him to be stoned to death as he was a married person.”
Sahi Muslim No. 4206:
“A woman came to the prophet and asked for purification by seeking punishment. He told her to go away and seek God’s forgiveness. She persisted four times and admitted she was pregnant. He told her to wait until she had given birth. Then he said that the Muslim community should wait until she had weaned her child. When the day arrived for the child to take solid food, Muhammad handed the child over to the community. And when he had given command over her and she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al-Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on her face he cursed her.”
Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 2. pg 1009; and Sahih Muslim Vol 2. pg 65:
Hadhrat Abdullah ibne Abbaas (Radiallahu Anhu) narrates the lecture that Hadhrat Umar (Radiallaahu Anhu) delivered whilst sitting on the pulpit of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). Hadhrat Umar (Radiallahu Anhu) said, "Verily, Allah sent Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) with the truth, and revealed the Quran upon him. The verse regarding the stoning of the adulterer/ess was from amongst the verse revealed (in the Quraan). We read it, secured it and understood it. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) stoned and we stoned after him. I fear that with the passage of time a person might say, ‘We do not find mention of stoning in the Book of Allah and thereby go astray by leaving out an obligation revealed by Allah. Verily, the stoning of a adulterer/ress is found in the Quraan and is the truth, if the witnesses are met or there is a pregnancy or confession."
Al-Bayhaqi:
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “O mankind! Beware of fornication/adultery for it entails six dire consequences: three of them relating to this world and three to the next world. As for the three that are related to this world, they are the following: it removes the glow of one’s face, brings poverty, and reduces the life-span. As for its dire consequences in the next world they are: it brings down the wrath of Allah upon the person, subjects him to terrible reckoning, and finally casts him in hell-fire.”
Recently we had Saudi Ambassador to London, Ghazi al-Qusaibi, says that stoning may seem irrational to the western mind, but it is "at the core of the Islamic faith."
Hani Ramadan head of the Islamic Center in Geneva stated, “Islam has taken a firm and decisive stance against Zina (fornication or adultery). Allah, the Almighty, commands in explicit and unequivocal words: “And come not near unto adultery. Lo! it is an abomination and an evil way.” (Al-Isra’: 32).”
"The woman is 'awrah. When she goes outside (the house), the devil welcomes her"
(Ihy'a 'Uloum ed-Din by Ghazali, Dar al-Kotob al-'Elmeyah, Beirut , Vol II, Kitab Adab al-Nikah, p. 65. Reported by Tirmizi as a true and good Ahadith).
" Hazrat Ali (rightly guided Caliph) reported the Prophet saying:
“Women have ten ('awrah). When she gets married, the husband covers one, and when she dies the grave covers the ten." ( Kanz-el-'Ummal, Vol. 22, Hadith No. 858. See also Ihy'a).
'awrah (Auraat if you're from India or Pakistan) means object of shame and resentment.
WHY ''honor killing'' never happens among the non-Muslim Arab families?
Originally posted by MyOwnMuseThat suggests there was a flood, was it all over the world, no. That's impossible.
Start with Tablet XI of the Epic of Gilgamesh. It compares very nicely with the Noah flood story in Genesis(and pre-dates it, at least in terms of invention). Now, how we untangle myth with what actually happened is not my area of specialty, but myths often have some factual basis to them...which I believe was what you originally called into question with the Bible?
Right. Now the links -
Daughter raped by brothers, killed by mother
IRIN - Honor killings on the raise
Girl have her nose and lips cut off in the name of honor
Women brake silence on honor killings
Denmark : Nine people guilty of honor killing
Uk honor killing: sister stabbed to death for loving the wrong man
Pakistan: Just another honor killing. Man slits his pregrent wifes throat
Israel: Muslim honor killing in broad daylight
8 killed in honor killing. ''8 separate honors''
Honor killing of Kurdish lady in UK
Honor killing in Germany.
women offered for rape as blood debt
Father murders child because she looks like an english girl
two girls dragged and hacked to death in the streets
Sweeden honor killing
6 year old girl burned to death for ''honor''
Teacher ripped apart for trying to teach girls
Father kills wife and 4 daughters for being too western
honor killings increase in Britian as women stand up for their rights
Misc -
Another beheading in Thiland. 50-year old Buddhist man beheaded by folowers of religion of peace
Islamists to Christians: Cnvert or Die
70-year old Buddhist man shot in the head then set on fire in Thiland
Muslims protest Beslan memorial
Call for murder of Jews and Christians
Buddhist children and women shot dead by Islamists in Malaysia
Islamists kill 9 buddhists execution style in Thiland
women -
Woman raped as a punishment for reading a bible.
woman beaten for calling on re-interpretation of the Qur'an
Islamic authorities take Muslimah's 15-month baby because shes living as a Hindu
Rape and incest reports doubles in Malaysia
Fatwa on contravertail Islamic writer
Muslim mothers persuaded daughters to have sex with their father <--wtf?
Muslims fanatic kills Pakistani female minister
ETC. I'll post more later.
Originally posted by Nellinator
Also, you know absolutely about the story of Joseph. It is not a moral, so you should probably stop talking. And yet ancient cultures all over the world all have flood legends... Since you obviously know nothing about this please do not comment on it. Also, that didn't damage anything considering there is anthropological evidence for it and it never made the world blind and you once again show your complete ignorance on the subject of Christian history.
He also can't spell.
Oh and good thing "Rocas" just brought that up, for the love of Muhammed to his 9 year old wife, can someone change the title of this thread already?
Originally posted by Alliance
I missed that last part 😮 However, if God can wipe out entire cities for sinfullness, why cant he strike down the surplus wives. (isn't polygamy also demonstrated by men other than Jacob?)Here's what I wrote anyway 13
Gilgamesh and the Biblical flood are very similar. However, other culture's flood myths don't line up so lightly. It would be a stretch, Nell, to say that because every culture has a flood myth, the world flooded and one God (yours) did it.
Obviously a flood could be a traumatic event for a civilization and they would write a myth about it. Floods happen everywhere. Women are mentioned in the Bible, does that mean the Bible is merely a historical text?
As far as Joseph. "and the LORD was with him"
"and the LORD was with him"
"and the LORD was with him""45:7 And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance.
45:8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.
45:9 Haste ye, and go up to my father, and say unto him, Thus saith thy son Joseph, God hath made me lord of all Egypt: come down unto me, tarry not"Whats the moral? God has a plan. God rewards the good with earthly pleasures like power and pretty cups. God is to make you humble.
Its CERTAINLY not a historical account. You could make an argument for it being Joseph's personal history, but its not presented as a historical account.
Flood legends are an interesting topic. Most of them seem to stem from roughly the same period and most hint at a global flood. There is evidence of it in many places with seashells being found in odd places and the like. Aboriginal Australians, the Mayans, and the Middle East (Greece and Egypt included) all have major flood legends. I believe that I heard a number of 600 different ancient accounts. I'm not saying that the Christian God did it (although I obviously believe He did), but to say that the flood is impossible is close-minded. Personally, I believe the melting of the glaciers at the end of the ice age is a good explanation although there are evidences of a great deluge in the Middle East post dating that event. I'm not researched enough to really expound on all of it, but I think there is sufficient evidence to argue for a global flood.
Historical account would be slightly off as it is not an objective history of the time period. It is more of a biography as it focuses on Joseph alone and its purpose in the Bible would have been an account of the founding of the tribes of Israel which is extremely important in Jewish history. The moral is definitely there, but it does not seem to be the most important part of the story as the account is not moral orientated.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Sicne when do you care about what Qur'an says? Right.
Originally posted by lil bitchinessSince always.
Only when you THINK you're right.
I haven't seen one SHREAD of proof saying honor killings are justified in Islam.
I know honor killings happen, but they don't happen because of Islam. You're making false conclusions because you are a bigot and have no desire but to build Islam up to be some sort of titan of terror.
Honestly, with your infinate (i.e. pile of shit) knowledge of Islam. Surely it wouldn't be hard for you to prove that Islam is such an abomination by showing me where honor killings are supported in Muslim holy texts.
SHOW ME I'M WRONG. (as opposed to telling me when you ourself have zero credibility) Can you do this? Or are you going to just keep telling me how stupid you think I am? You're an emparrsement to modern society and to all of mankind.