I doin't see any convincing literature for Nadd being superior to Vader.
Vader had the greatest latent force prowess and even though he lost some of his potential, I would certainly rank his force abilities above most Sith.
As for lightsaber dueling, Vader is the superior by default.
Really, there's no evidence for Nadd being greater or equal to Vader.
Originally posted by Allankles
I doin't see any convincing literature for Nadd being superior to Vader.Vader had the greatest latent force prowess and even though he lost some of his potential, I would certainly rank his force abilities above most Sith.
As for lightsaber dueling, Vader is the superior by default.
Really, there's no evidence for Nadd being greater or equal to Vader.
Vader wins by default? Explain that big boy. I findi it hard to believe Vader is superior to someone who conquered an entire planet singlehandidly. Not to mention as IOU said, he has vast force knowledge. Then again so does Vader, but as a robot, he is severely limited to certain abilities, and inferior to Nadd.
Wasn't Onderon at that point almost completely under developed? And it's not like he just walekd on to the planet, crushed the entire planets army, then assumed command. I thought he just influenced certain people, and gained enough influence to eventually concquer the planet. Forgive me if this is wrong, I haven't read TotJ in awhile.
Vader is inferior to only Sidious in force powers and the Sith Lord he might have been had he not been injured on Mustafah. I would rank few if any (Nihilus) above him.
As for Nadd, he's never shown anything to be considered Vader's equal and/or superior.
He may have won a planet but let's not pretend like Onderon was some kind of Coruscant back when Nadd took over. Also, lets not pretend that Nadd destroyed an entire army to take the Onderonian throne, he'd just need to influence the right people, become the leader of the largest military force and presto: backwards planet wrapped in a big dark side bow.
Now, Vader was a war hero who turned the tide of countless battles with his combat prowess; at 23 was capable of destroying as powerful a Sith Lord as Tyranus and even after Mustafah, continued to expand his knowledge of the Sith arts for 20+ years while mentored by the greatest master of the dark side.
Vader's resume is alot more impressive than Nadd's. Vader would pawn Sadow, Vader would pawn Iziz militia and beast riders, would Nadd pwn Lord Tyranus? I highly doubt it.
Originally posted by Allankles
Vader is inferior to only Sidious in force powers and the Sith Lord he might have been had he not been injured on Mustafah. I would rank few if any (Nihilus) above him.
As for Nadd, he's never shown anything to be considered Vader's equal and/or superior.
He may have won a planet but let's not pretend like Onderon was some kind of Coruscant back when Nadd took over. Also, lets not pretend that Nadd destroyed an entire army to take the Onderonian throne, he'd just need to influence the right people, become the leader of the largest military force and presto: backwards planet wrapped in a big dark side bow.
Now, Vader was a war hero who turned the tide of countless battles with his combat prowess; at 23 was capable of destroying as powerful a Sith Lord as Tyranus and even after Mustafah, continued to expand his knowledge of the Sith arts for 20+ years while mentored by the greatest master of the dark side.
Vader's resume is alot more impressive than Nadd's. Vader would pawn Sadow, Vader would pawn Iziz militia and beast riders, would Nadd pwn Lord Tyranus? I highly doubt it. [/B]
And you have an argument Sexy? Forgive me for not seeing it. Nadd's take over of Onderon is being used as some marker of his superiority to Vader, we have to examine what Onderon was at the time. He took over a back wards planet in the outer rim, big deal.
A planet to Vader's galaxy. Vader is a big fish, Nadd is/was a small fry.
Let's look at specific feats: Vader by default.
Lets' look at force strength: Vader by default, not to mention that he was more gifted in the force than anyone, and still pretty close to Sidious in force prowess even after Mustafar.
His cybernetics weren't as much of a hindrance as you might expect Sexy, he overcame that hindrance with tremendous will power - which is as Sidious instructed him: was all that he was required to have to increase his power in the dark side.
Vader over Nadd by default.
Originally posted by Allankles
And you have an argument Sexy? Forgive me for not seeing it. Nadd's take over of Onderon is being used as some marker of his superiority to Vader, we have to examine what Onderon was at the time. He took over a back wards planet in the outer rim, big deal.
A planet to Vader's galaxy. Vader is a big fish, Nadd is/was a small fry.
Let's look at specific feats: Vader by default.
Lets' look at force strength: Vader by default, not to mention that he was more gifted in the force than anyone, and still pretty close to Sidious in force prowess even after Mustafar.
Vader over Nadd by default. [/B]
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
SINGLE HANDIDLY. Learn to read. Not to mention the TOTJ Companion states his power. Not to mention he learned from an ancient sith and was actually able to apply those techniques, whereas vader wasn't.Except feat wars are irrelevant in 1 on 1 situations. If you knew how to argue you'd learn this is one of the first rules.
Potential and actual strength are too different things. Vader is severely limited and there's little chance that he could take someone who took down the Massassi with more ease than Kun.
wrong as usual
Singe handedly! 😱 How relevant, I don't remember anyone saying that Nadd shared Onderon. Onderon was a backwards planet with few threats to an experienced force user. Many dark jedi upstarts have taken over at least a planet to further their ambitions. Malak, Tavion, Desann, Jerec, Kun, Revan etc etc. It isn't some awe inspiring feat in SW.
And Nadd much like any single man looking to take a planet, would need a military force, so let's not pretend that he took on Onderon's military, as that would be counter productive for a take over.
Oh! And you're using a feat in a one on one matchup: Nadd's take over of Onderon. If you knew how to argue you'd know that feats are all that matter in mythical matchup debates.
I'm not talking about Vader's potential, he did have a strong connection to the force and he was pretty damn close to ROTJ Sidious in his force prowess.
Nadd has almost no feats that put him anywhere near Vader. And why is your perception always so skewed Sexy? What makes you think the Massasi are anywhere near as impressive a feat as beating Dooku or the Dark Lady or Maul or Obi Wan? The Massasi are about as relevant a feat as Anakin beating on battle droids.
Sure they might give him problems from time to time but how are they relevant? They're trained/programmed and relatively dangerous to force sensitives, but that's about it. Stop the madness.
Originally posted by Allankles
Singe handedly! 😱 How relevant, I don't remember anyone saying that Nadd shared Onderon. Onderon was a backwards planet with few threats to an experienced force user. Just about every dark jedi upstart has taken over a at least a planet to further their ambitions. Malak, Tavion, Desann, Jerec, Kun, Revan etc etc. It isn't some awe inspiring feat in SW.
And Nadd much like any single man looking to take a planet, would need a military force, so let's not pretend that he took on Onderon's military, as that would be counter productive for a take over.
Oh! And you're using a feat in a one on one matchup: Nadd's take over of Onderon. If you knew how to argue you'd know that feats are all that matter in mythical matchup debates.
Nadd has almost no feats that put him anyone near Vader. And why is your perception always so skewed Sexy? What makes you think the Massasi are anywhere near as impressive a feat as beating Dooku or the Dark Lady or Maul or Obi Wan? The Massasi are about as relevant a feat as Anakin beating on battle droids.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Really? Show me another instance where only ONE force user took over a populated planet with just his lightsaber and force abilities. Oh wait, you can't..Except for the fact that he DID, and became the ruler. I guess you haven't read the Naddist Uprisings.
Except that, being the moron that you are, you fail to grasp the fact that my feat deals with his force abilities which are relevant to a 1 on 1 fight, while your feat wars deals with him being only second in command. Great going dumbass, you've proven once again why you can't debate. I guess you're the new Noobaris.
Except for the fact that Kun got curbstomped by the Massassi, while it it stated that Nadd conquered the Massassi, so sorry, my feats ARE relevant. And my feats pertain to Nadd's personal power, while yours are useless.
With a lightsaber and the force huh?! Meaning/suggesting what? He curbstomped the entire military? Ofcourse not, unless you're a moron (Sexy) or don't understand that it would require more than just combat prowess to take over a planet, rendering the feat irrelevant and inconclusive as a combat feat. Try again dummy.
Let's not get into technicalties( the fact that Onderon was backward with an unimpressive population density for a planet). Great feat here.
I haven't failed to grasp any of your inane posts. Dooku> Massasi, Obi Wan > Massasi, Dark Lady> Massasi. Vader's feats are more relevant to the context at hand: one-on-one contest. Beating on Massasi by itself isn't an impressive feat, certainly not when compared to Vader's feats in single's combat.
And Kun was beaten by the Massasi because he was unable to use the lightside of the force and refused to use the dark side. Way to go trying to prove anything with the Massasi. Vader would have completely raped the Massasi, so how is this feat relevant again? Try again dummy.
Originally posted by IOUI kind of think that the stuff mentioned in TOTJ companion is a debate itself because how can that force storm be a jedi power when sidious stated that he uses his rage to build up the storm in space as written in the book of anger, Jedis do not use rage. No retcon has been established between DESB and TOTJ C
it was stated that the technique derived from the ancients, but that doesnt matter anyway, as the power (specifically the wormhole one) was listed in the totj companion as a jedi power, thus nadd knows it, and thats where he learnt it from; not the ancients
And even if nadd knew it how powerful do we know it is? DS just mentioned sidious took it to a whole new level
Originally posted by IOUI must have misread your statement, i apologise then
dude, i never once said that nadd knew every single force technique, just the ones listed in the totj companion, as well as the stuff he learnt from adas' holocron and sadow's teachings, which he indeed does
Originally posted by IOUNadd could have just gave kun the impression that he was super powerful when he was alive which could only be half true ,And about pushing vodo when he was on yavin? Spirits arent bound to a single place and the force push certeinly wasnt flying across the galaxy, It could have been force pushing vodo while communicating with him telepathicly
as we know, the power of spirits pale in comparison to that of ones true living form, and nadd had been one for 400 years, and was so much weaker to the point where he described himself as powerless [in comparison], yet he was still pretty powerful, being able to knock vodo down while lightyears away from him, among many other things, so it can be assumed that he was extremely powerful when he was alive
Originally posted by IOUWell the NEC says different, stating that he influenced the onderon people rather than using force because after a while, he couldnt fight of mere beast riders with all of his sith magic, I will provide a quote if you request it
well the exact circumstances are unknown, however some sources say he achieved it through brute strength while others say that he impressed them with his powers
Originally posted by IOUI think he kicked the beast riders ass and influenced iziz but ironic he couldnt fend them off as the NEC stated
id speculate that he likely landed on onderon, kicked some serious ass, and then wowed the people with his sith magic, however thats just speculation, we dont really know how he did it
Originally posted by IOUForce storm lightning and force storm worm hole are completely different techniques and sidious force storm is powerful enough to red the fabrics of space and tear open a worm hole which is the most destructive thing in the universe save for a black hole and super nova. My point stands
i understand that, however both variations are technically the same technique, and the one performed by the bod was seemingly even more destructive, so my point still stands
Originally posted by IOUIt depends really, Sidious took a few mere seconds to generate a force storm to destroy the rebel fleet. Nadds force storm is unknown but even if he did generate it, if vader attempts to attack him in the process both will get annihilated because even sidious could not fully control his storms
well by that logic, vader has no chance in hell at winning this given that nadd himself knows the wormhole variant of the force storm
Originally posted by IOUYou were saying zannah defended agaisnt a force storm lightning, i just pointed out that its the wormhole im talking about, not the lightning, Sorry but i cant really comprehend what you are saying on this one
now 1 thing i will say is that a force storm from sidious would be near impossible to defend against, but do you really think it would really be beyond someone like luke skywalker, even when using just a standard defence? i sure as hell dont
Originally posted by IOUHmm ok not simple then but the fact i was trying to point out is that id didnt shake the whole temple at once but rather its foundations
wasnt arguing against that, however either way you look at it, the attack was extremely destructive, and hardly what ud call 'simple'
Originally posted by IOUThen lets drop this one
'There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverise his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid.'so clearly the attack was extremely powerful, but again, we've gotten pretty off topic
Originally posted by IOUI do 😄 but lets drop this downgreater? id say so
much greater? well thats pushing it a bit
however, this is largely off topic, who cares if vader is more powerful than bane?
Originally posted by IOUAlright 🙂 but ill admit its great to have a friendly debate with youlol, sure thing, and i apologise too for being out of line earlier, ill keep this civil from now on
i know lol, i was just kidding
As for darth sith ill get back to you later
Originally posted by Allankles
With a lightsaber and the force huh?! Meaning/suggesting what? He curbstomped the entire military? Ofcourse not, unless you're a moron (Sexy) or don't understand that it would require more than just combat prowess to take over a planet, rendering the feat irrelevant and inconclusive as a combat feat. Try again dummy.
Let's not get into technicalties( the fact that Onderon was backward with an unimpressive population density for a planet). Great feat here.
I haven't failed to grasp any of your inane posts. Dooku> Massasi, Obi Wan > Massasi, Dark Lady> Massasi. Vader's feats are more relevant to the context at hand: one-on-one contest. Beating on Massasi by itself isn't an impressive feat, certainly not when compared to Vader's feats in single's combat.
And Kun was beaten by the Massasi because he was unable to use the lightside of the force and refused to use the dark side. Way to go trying to prove anything with the Massasi. Vader would have completely raped the Massasi, so how is this feat relevant again? Try again dummy. [/B]
Originally posted by Darth SexyThat quote is debatable because if he could so easily conquer a planet with sith magic, why the hell couldnt he fend off beast riders later on? TNEC states this and it also stated that nadd influeced the people of iziz with his sith magic, he didnt actually fight the entire military because all nadd did in the beginning was drive back beast riders. Note that he couldnt fend off beast riders when they struck the 2nd time with all of his magic
Yet again, he is stated as "Single handidly conquering a planet with his lightsaber and sith magic". Just because you're a moron with a lack of common sense and reading comprehension doesn't make canon facts wrong.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yet again, he is stated as "Single handidly conquering a planet with his lightsaber and sith magic". Just because you're a moron with a lack of common sense and reading comprehension doesn't make canon facts wrong.Right, it's a technicality because it destroys your entire argument.
Kun couldn't use the force against the Massasi; he didn't want to use the dark side and couldn't use the lightside. That's the only reason he was defeated by them. That destroys your whole idiotic argument on this issue. Learn to use valid points.
Vader's feats are all relevant to a one on duel, as they are all one on one duel feats.
And as far as Nadd's take over off Onderon, nowhere is it stated that Nadd defeated the entire planet's military to take the throne. You're just grabbing at straws here. It stated that he declared himself king, which suggest (given the backward civilization in Onderon) that he may have simply used spectacles to scare them into declaring him king. It's not a big feat to anyone that isn't a complete moron.
Originally posted by darthsith19Then that is settled
However, did I ever say it was because Vader is slow? And that was some time ago, I've changed my mind now.
Originally posted by darthsith19Apparantly so because all nadd this was "wowed" the people with his sith magic and he declared himself king without sheding any blood save for killing a few beast riders.
Are we to assume that the stories are false? if not, then what they said are true. And yes, Nadd's spirit was unable to block an amulet blast. So what?
Originally posted by darthsith19Listen to his tone foo
Proof? Assumptions mean nothing.
Originally posted by darthsith19Whats the difference? Anyways dont derail this
You have a serious lack of bad reading comprehension, don't you? Show me where I said he wasn't the most powerful Sith. I said I didn't know that he was, I never said that you were wrong, did I.
Originally posted by darthsith19Obviously when he was in the movies and the PT his lightning can kill but it takes a while to do so(take windu for an example) while Pre OT and after the PT when he had access to the entire jedi archive to study and bbecome more powerful than before, Simple common sense tells you as time passes you get stronger provided you are learning something which in this case sidious did. And his lightning during the OT is powerful enough to instantly kill 50 storm troopers and reduce 3 sith acolytes to ashes whom are powerful enough to restore life in darth maul
Why the fvck do you always insult people, you must be really insecure. Okay, now you've proved that DE Sidious > OT and PT Sidious, now proove that OT Sidious is "far more powerful" than PT Sidious, if you can.
Originally posted by darthsith19So your telling me the amulet was in nadds tomb?
I would go to the comic to prove you wrong, but the Old republic Comics aren't showing up on swtimeline.
Originally posted by darthsith19Prove that nadd even had the amulet in his posession because as far canon goes he could not defeat mere beast riders with his sith magic the 2nd time they struct Iziz and had he even had the amulet in his hands he would have annihilated mere beast riders and he still would be on his throne in onderon. And crush has killed people before. A mere force choke has killed jedi before and force crush is a much greater power than choke and vader has demonstrated this on numerous occasions to tanks, humans and even buildings
If at the beginning of the fight Vader uses crush at the same time as Nadd uses his amulet blast, Vader gets hit and dies, and Nadd only gets crushed for a second or 2. Prove that a 2 second crush will kill someone.
Originally posted by darthsith19But the fact is vader IS strong and uber
I never said that vader is weak, again, you have really bad reading comprehension. I merely stated that being trained by palpatine doesn't [b]necessarily make you strong, being trained by someone strong doesn't necessarily make you strong. Read more carefully next time. Vader is not uber, just strong. [/B]
Originally posted by darthsith19Lets see, when vader knows that he cant face his opponents with a lightsaber he actually thinks of ways to beat his opponents down like using the terrain or affecting them psychologically. He uses strategy to take his opponents down rather than rushing into battle.
So you're admitting that Vader can't block the amulet blasts? Prove that vader is smarter than Nadd. When had Vader ever used a Force Crush right away in a battle, anyways? If he has never done that before then why would he now?
And ironic that you mention when has vader used crush in a battle when nadd himself has never even used the amulet once in his life
Sidious was confirmed as the most powerful as of AOTC, correct? This means that he is, by an unknown degree, more powerful than Nadd at this point. When the Empire is established Sidious leaves all the political work to others and fully dedicates all his time to the study of the dark side (stated in Ultimate Visual Guide), plus, he does not sleep (stated in RODV), so that's an extra few years of study.
Vader is about 80% as powerful as this Sidious, after he has had three and a half decades more of sleepless study, when before this, Sidious was already more powerful than Nadd.
Plus, his feats are above Nadd's. I know where my vote goes.