Heihachi vs. Kazuya

This is to respond to some of the things SBP said in my Top 5 of Tekken thread which was NOT for a Respect Thread. That's a complete lie, dude. And thanks a ****ing lot for getting it closed.

Like getting thrown of a ****ing cliff by that ragin' old lunatic when he was a child and climbing it back up.

By "making a deal with the Devil." Heihachi meanwhile got beaten unconscious and dropped off a cliff and came back under his own power.

Beating the crap out of his father and then having payback by throwing him down the ravine.

Heihachi trained and came back fiercer and more determined. Result was he owned Kazuya.

Having sex with the hottest babe in the Tekkenverse at the time Jun and fathering good all(fangirl/poster boy/yaoi bait) Jin Kazama.

Besides their one "act of passion" neither Kazuya nor Jun seemed to like the other very much. Kazuya has not spent one moment since his revival thinking of Jun and Jun never mentioned Kazuya at all to Jin from what we know. In the Tekken 3 prologue in the manual, she just tells Jin to hunt down Heihachi should something happen to her.

She probably was trying to block out the memory of his ugly naked body.

Getting thrown into the mouth of a volcano. Getting revived and learning actual control over the Devil gene.

So..he lost and got killed. What a feat.

Decimating a Tekken Force unit while making his pressence known to Heihachi.

EVERYONE beats up the Tekken Force. The bastards get annihilated every time they try anything. The only time they succeeded was with Jin. Everything else wa sa dismal loss

Telekinetically blasting the crap out of Heihachi.

And Heihachi was looking just dandy when he appeared right after Kazuya was laid out flat on his face like a *****.

Ripping Jacks apart with his old bastard. Transforming into Devil and taking flight out of the Honmaru explosion.

So...he chickened out. What a feat!

Then execute every high person involved in the betrayal while assuming leadership of G-corporation and now leading the world against Jin and the Mishima Zaibatsu.

Wow. I wonder how this will end.

Hint: Jin destroys him.

Heck I think the greatest feat belongs to him for actually coming back from a scripted dead. Namco wanted him dead. Fans did not. Namco tried to replace him...Namco figured that while Jin was good he was no Kazuya. Fans burnt cities and built Kazuya shrines...Kazuya made it back.

Yeah...Kazuya was brought back.

In a way about as good as Albert Wesker's resurrection.

Ill-explained Plot Device to appease fanboys with their bland crappy characters being back.

Why do this? If you were pointing this out at SBP, you're obviously setting yourself up for something bad.

What do you mean?

I vote for Kazuya. And I mean no devil gene Kazuya.

They fought 3 times before.
In tekken 1 Kaz beat his old man.
In tekken 2 Heihachi won.
Judging by the cutscenes from tekken 4 I believe Kazuya let Heihachi defeat him in the tournament so Heihachi would keep his promise and lead him to Jin.

Overall, Kazuya lived through things comparing to which surviving the explosion in honmaru doesn't look all that impressive.
Kazuya survived the fall from a cliff and climbed back up when he was 5!
So he has an advantage in durability.
He's younger and has a better stamina. (he fought Paul for 3 hours non-stop!)
Strength - they're equel.
Skills - probably heihachi. And that's arguable, since before tekken 1 Kazuya's life purpose was getting stronger and training while Heihachi was too busy controling Mishima corp. So their skills are close.
Technique - judging gameplaywise I'd say that Kazuya's more effective, but that's just IMO.

And Nik, I read a lot of your posts and respect you a lot, I don't know what happened between you and SBP, but calling Kazuya a chicken is TOO much. He ran cause there was no purpose for him to fight mindless robots, he knew that it'd be much more effective to find people who sent them, which he did. And he killed them all.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
What do you mean?

You are trying to prove SBP wrong, while setting yourself up for something really bad. I don't wanna say what.

By "making a deal with the Devil." Heihachi meanwhile got beaten unconscious and dropped off a cliff and came back under his own power

he made the deal with devil when he was about to die of bloodless AS he was climbing it.

Heihachi trained and came back fiercer and more determined. Result was he owned Kazuya.

Besides their one "act of passion" neither Kazuya nor Jun seemed to like the other very much. Kazuya has not spent one moment since his revival thinking of Jun and Jun never mentioned Kazuya at all to Jin from what we know. In the Tekken 3 prologue in the manual, she just tells Jin to hunt down Heihachi should something happen to her.
She probably was trying to block out the memory of his ugly naked body.

oh and she told jin about his father before Ogre pwned her. she kept his lineage a secret till then because well...try telling a 15 year old boy that his father was a criminal who had sold his soul to the devil when he was a boy and was tossed off a cliff by HIS father, but she found him out and slept with him cuz he was a hunk and that he's a child born out of wedlock.
pretty good story to tell a 15 year old.
and she told Jin to find out hachi because hachi had actually become a good guy after Tekken2. in his tekken3 prologue it said that he was settling wars etc. and that it was only after hearing of Ogre that "his age old desire to take over the world was finally reawakened".

EVERYONE beats up the Tekken Force. The bastards get annihilated every time they try anything. The only time they succeeded was with Jin. Everything else wa sa dismal loss

And Heihachi was looking just dandy when he appeared right after Kazuya was laid out flat on his face like a *****.

So...he chickened out. What a feat!

but i agree with you on one thing: kazuya's return.
i liked the whole "tragic hero" aspect of him so while i was happy as hell to see him back in T4 i also realized that it wasn't done properly enough.

~Sado

the feat SBP is pointing is this:
-falling into bottomless ravine and surviving
-getting right back and climbing it back
-all this at the age of 6 or 8.

he made the deal with devil when he was about to die of bloodless AS he was climbing it.

Good for him. He still relied on an outside power to live. Heihachi did not.

because Kazuya was busy struggling against his inner demon/angel at the time. this doesn't even require canon proof. we know that angel (who is Jun kazama btw) and devil were fighting over his soul as states the prologue to angel and devil in Tekken2.

Where the **** do you get the idea Jun is Angel?

The only thing even VAGUELY hinting at this was Tekken Tag.

And Kazuya has ALWAYS hated his father. He has no reason to be going througha moral conflict when facing against his father.

and she told Jin to find out hachi because hachi had actually become a good guy after Tekken2. in his tekken3 prologue it said that he was settling wars etc. and that it was only after hearing of Ogre that "his age old desire to take over the world was finally reawakened".

Since when is there a Tekken 3 Prologue? The closest thing to that is in the Manual and in the Manual, it says he trained Jin to lure out Ogre. Though, i do remember vaguely the bit talking about him establishing the Tekken Force. They went into stop wars and stuff, right? But that was all just a front for Heihachi. He made them to serve as his own personal military basically.

right because jin got taken down with tranquilizers while Kazuya pwned the entire platoon with MP5's on his own. bullets don't KILL one with devil but they sure as hell hurt. and then there was the bit where he survived the big explosion in T4 intro too and that too with a few scratches. they were ordered to KILL him while they were ordered to capture Jin. and guess who walkd out of that one.
his name is Kazuya Mishima.

......we SAW their attack on Kazuya. NONE of them fired a single round at him.

the tekken5 prologue says that kaz and jin's battle was intense. so i'm guessing hachi had a long nap before that. and you're missing the crucial point:
why would a man lose to hachi when he would pwn him minutes later without effort? devil powers IS kazuya's power in case you want to tell me about the two being split personalities. same as with Jin and the devil powers in him.

Well, hooray for yoru baseless assumptions.

Now let's go with what we SAW:

-Kazuya blasted Heihachi back.
-Jin breaks loose and fights Kazuya. Beats Kazuya.
-just as the fight ends and we see Kazuya laid out, Heihachi is RIGHT there. A nice long nap? Till what? He was blasted several feet. Are you telling me the fight went on then ended and Heihachi, who, according to you, was taking a nap and KO'ed, crossed the ENTIRE room to be RIGH there at the end, looking unharmed?

right....because the old fart standing next to him was getting winded and so wouldn't have been able to help him. notice how hachi was winded but kazy wasn't.

Um...winded? Says who? Heihachi put down his arms....is that winded to you? Winded means you're out of breath and tired, usually shown by leaning over with your hands on your knees. Not just standing there.

And Kazuya grabbed him RIGHT then and chucked him away. Kazuya grabbed him because Heihachi let his guard down and Kazuya, being a coward, saw a chance to make a get away.

And I believe Heihachi took out more Jacks. Not sure. Also as for Heihachi being winded and Kazuya not...he's about several decades Kazuya's senior and without a Devil Gene.

hachi actually lost consciousness TWICE after the beat down he got from Jin. he was unconscious, woke up breifly when Jin was about to kill him, jin flew away. next we see the T5 intro where Kaz and Hachi regain consciousness.

That's called a plothole. Heihachi was fully awake when Jin left and next thing we see in the Intro, he's out. So...one source contraidcts the other.

And also, Kazuya was unconscious far longer than Heihachi.

Kazuya survived the fall from a cliff and climbed back up when he was 5!
So he has an advantage in durability.

yes but Heihachi, at the age of 75 and nearly murdered one second, then jumped upon by several multi-ton Jacks, then blown several miles then on teh verge of death for WEEKS. And lived.

Come on...that beats the hell out of what Kazuya did, IMO.

And Nik, I read a lot of your posts and respect you a lot, I don't know what happened between you and SBP, but calling Kazuya a chicken is TOO much. He ran cause there was no purpose for him to fight mindless robots, he knew that it'd be much more effective to find people who sent them, which he did. And he killed them all.

1. Thanks.
2. Nothing happened between us. I just responded to his post.
3. I agree it was the sensible move to escape but he did it by throwign Heihachi to the Jacks. IMO, sacrifing someone else to save your own life is being a coward.

Originally posted by Nikkolas

yes but Heihachi, at the age of 75 and nearly murdered one second, then jumped upon by several multi-ton Jacks, then blown several miles then on teh verge of death for WEEKS. And lived.

Come on...that beats the hell out of what Kazuya did, IMO.

Also in tekken 4 we only saw a little part of the fight. Tekken forces did fire at Kazuya (we can see that in tekken 4 intro) , but they couldn't hit him not once. Also, he didn't even know they were coming and still murdered them.

Originally posted by Nikkolas

1. Thanks.
2. Nothing happened between us. I just responded to his post.
3. I agree it was the sensible move to escape but he did it by throwign Heihachi to the Jacks. IMO, sacrifing someone else to save your own life is being a coward.

Also, Heihachi was planning on running away himself, when more Jacks jumped from the roof, Heihachi put his hands down and stepped back. That doesn't make him a coward, just a reasonable man.

Oh and the Angel is Jun theory in the link fails.

It not only uses a lot of Tekken Tag stuff it tries to use the Tekken 2 Intro as showing Angel and Kazuya are serpate beings. Yet in Kazuya's endiing, Devil also a appears to be a different entity. And in Angel's ending, she is flying......

The fact is, that part is probably just symbolic.

To Sam Z:
Kay. Fair point.

But still, I don't see Kazuya or Heihachi either winning this solidly. I would say it's 50/50.

Good for him. He still relied on an outside power to live. Heihachi did not.

Where the **** do you get the idea Jun is Angel?
The only thing even VAGUELY hinting at this was Tekken Tag.
And Kazuya has ALWAYS hated his father. He has no reason to be going througha moral conflict when facing against his father.

Since when is there a Tekken 3 Prologue? The closest thing to that is in the Manual and in the Manual, it says he trained Jin to lure out Ogre. Though, i do remember vaguely the bit talking about him establishing the Tekken Force. They went into stop wars and stuff, right? But that was all just a front for Heihachi. He made them to serve as his own personal military basically.

......we SAW their attack on Kazuya. NONE of them fired a single round at him.

Well, hooray for yoru baseless assumptions.

-Kazuya blasted Heihachi back.

-Jin breaks loose and fights Kazuya. Beats Kazuya.

just as the fight ends and we see Kazuya laid out, Heihachi is RIGHT there. A nice long nap? Till what? He was blasted several feet.
Are you telling me the fight went on then ended and Heihachi, who, according to you, was taking a nap and KO'ed, crossed the ENTIRE room to be RIGH there at the end, looking unharmed?

Um...winded? Says who? Heihachi put down his arms....is that winded to you? Winded means you're out of breath and tired, usually shown by leaning over with your hands on your knees. Not just standing there. And Kazuya grabbed him RIGHT then and chucked him away. Kazuya grabbed him because Heihachi let his guard down and Kazuya, being a coward, saw a chance to make a get away. And I believe Heihachi took out more Jacks. Not sure. Also as for Heihachi being winded and Kazuya not...he's about several decades Kazuya's senior and without a Devil Gene

The sounds of battle gave way to silence as Heihachi lay spread out on the ground. The silence was soon interrupted by approaching aircraft. The roar of the aircraft increased and the sound of something being ejected was heard. A group of Jacks crashed through the ceiling. At first, Heihachi suspected that Kazuya was responsible for the intrusion but realized that Kazuya was just as bewildered by the sudden attack.
"Why are you here?" yells Heihachi as the wave of Jacks approaches. Heihachi and Kazuya battle waves of Jacks but reinforcements appear as fast as the Jacks are destroyed.
Heihachi starts to lose his breath. Kazuya betrays Heihachi, throwing him into the middle of the army of Jacks, and uses the opportunity to escape from Honmaru. Shortly after, Honmaru is devastated by a huge explosion.

That's called a plothole. Heihachi was fully awake when Jin left and next thing we see in the Intro, he's out. So...one source contraidcts the other.

yes but Heihachi, at the age of 75 and nearly murdered one second, then jumped upon by several multi-ton Jacks, then blown several miles then on teh verge of death for WEEKS. And lived. Come on...that beats the hell out of what Kazuya did, IMO.

~Sado

TTT is canon but it doesnt directly refute anything about the characters either, nik. symbolic yes. it is symbolic of Jun.

~Sado

Originally posted by Nikkolas
To Sam Z:
Kay. Fair point.

But still, I don't see Kazuya or Heihachi either winning this solidly. I would say it's 50/50.

That sounds fair. 🙂
All we left to do is wait and see what happens in tekken 6.

right because hachi was a full grown man in his prime while kaz was a kid. sounds fair to me.

Heihachi was a full grown man beaten unconscious and tossed, WHILE unconscious off a cliff. Which means he landed with the full force of a brick.

Nik. get a grip. you aint a comic book character so just calm down. you said you don't like being called remy, and i can respect that...but don't go around acting like him now.

I was merely voicing my incredulity at this notion you said. I didn't mean to act like anyone. It's not like I'm asking "where the **** did you get the idea Galactus can beat Chun-Li?!!?!?" I was just at odds with your thougt of Jun = Angel.

oh and Kaz only hated hachi after he tossed him down that ravine. and he was conflicted because Jun was trying to stop him from becoming a murderer and losing his soul while Devil in him wanted him to finish what he began: kick hachi's thongwearing keister to kill.

Well, surprise, I did bother to read the link.

And looky what it says!

"1- Canon wise, Kazuya eventually gave in to Devil at the end of Tekken2 "

🙂

the manual IS the prologue.
and no. it says clearly that hachi was stopping world peace and what not. it was only after finding out about Ogre was his "age old desire for world conquest rekindled". basically he became an a$$hole just like that.

Well, I no longer own the manual but I'm pretty sure it makes a note of the Tekken Force stopping wars and going for world peace as merely a front to them being Heihachi's own little army.

right and they threw a bomb at him. i'm sure that doesn't count.

Well...it kinda doesn't. If you remembered what you said.

and by the way, kaz was too close to them for a gunfight to start. and how do you think Kaz happened to be standing there with a gun pointed at the last one? the ad literally shifts from one thing to the other. he smacks them around until they throw a bomb at him and the next thing we see is a bleeding kazuya standing with a desert eagle in his hands. so...yes, i'm pretty sure they shot him.
and don't forget the bomb.

So...nothing but bullets can make Kazuya bleed now?

NOTHING else could have messed him up?

dude firstly hachi didn't get hit by anything TO LOOK badly hurt. he was flung across the room like the old coot he is and was ko'd. what are you going on about?

I'm going on about the idea that Heihachi was KO'ed doesn't fit at all. He was RIGHT there when Jin knocked out Kazuya. Unless there's a serious space from the end of Kazuya's and Jin's fight to the beginning of that cutscene, Heihachi was standing right there and ready to fight his grandson.

happy?

THey got a funny idea of winded is all I can say.

what? so wait....ever heard teh expression "passing in and out of consciousness"? that's what happened here.

And your proof of that is....?

age=irrelevent in tekken

I'm gonna smile here but I know what you meant. But still, it's funny.

as for the rest, its debatable but to me a 6 year old kid being tossed into bottomles ravine and LIVING AND CLIMBING RIGHT BACK up pwns hachi. not to take anything from hachi though.

Was that ravine several miles or after Kazuya had nearly been beaten to death or crushed? Was he there for weeks on end and survived o his own?

TTT is canon

No it's not.

nik. symbolic yes. it is symbolic of Jun.

I like how Jun can fly now.

No it's not.

I like how Jun can fly now.

Heihachi was a full grown man beaten unconscious and tossed, WHILE unconscious off a cliff. Which means he landed with the full force of a brick.

1- Canon wise, Kazuya eventually gave in to Devil at the end of Tekken2 "

Well...it kinda doesn't. If you remembered what you said.

I'm going on about the idea that Heihachi was KO'ed doesn't fit at all. He was RIGHT there when Jin knocked out Kazuya. Unless there's a serious space from the end of Kazuya's and Jin's fight to the beginning of that cutscene, Heihachi was standing right there and ready to fight his grandson.

And your proof of that is....?

I'm gonna smile here but I know what you meant. But still, it's funny.

Was that ravine several miles or after Kazuya had nearly been beaten to death or crushed? Was he there for weeks on end and survived o his own?

~Sado

This reason this thread was made...wow 😆

hence the expression symbolic. you are gonna argue now that angel happens to magically possess the same healing abilities as kazamas?

Angel never displayed those same healing powers as Jun EXCEPT in Tekken Tag.

technically if he was unconscious at least it wouldn't have hurt that much now would it?

It would. He wouldn't know it but it would cause the same amount of damage to his body, I figure. And I figured since he is dead weight dropped like a stone, it would cause more damage than if he was conscious and moving about. Dunno.

it was written a while ago

Then don't adivse me to read it and then when I use it to counter your argument, make excuses for it. 🙂

okay, i'm confused.

What you originally said
"bullets don't KILL one with devil but they sure as hell hurt."

Then I replied, saying they never shot him. And you mentioned

"right and they threw a bomb at him. i'm sure that doesn't count."

So, a bomb doesn't count because you were talking about bullets.

lets cut it in the middle then. he was KO'd and woke up towards the end of the fight

You do that. I'll stick with the idea he let the Devils fight and tried to finish off the winner. It makes sense in my eyes.

in the tekken1 prologue for kaz, he was beaten to pulp and then tossed off the ravine.

Ling's ending in Tekken 5 would seem to retcon that.

But mind you, if you discoutn Ling's ending, you discount your beloved claim of him being dropped into a "bottomless pit." ONLY her ending gives tha timpression.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Angel never displayed those same healing powers as Jun EXCEPT in Tekken Tag.

It would. He wouldn't know it but it would cause the same amount of damage to his body, I figure. And I figured since he is dead weight dropped like a stone, it would cause more damage than if he was conscious and moving about. Dunno.

Then don't adivse me to read it and then when I use it to counter your argument, make excuses for it. 🙂

What you originally said
"bullets don't KILL one with devil but they sure as hell hurt."

Then I replied, saying they never shot him. And you mentioned

"right and they threw a bomb at him. i'm sure that doesn't count."

So, a bomb doesn't count because you were talking about bullets.

You do that. I'll stick with the idea he let the Devils fight and tried to finish off the winner. It makes sense in my eyes.

Ling's ending in Tekken 5 would seem to retcon that.

But mind you, if you discoutn Ling's ending, you discount your beloved claim of him being dropped into a "bottomless pit." ONLY her ending gives tha timpression.

Come again?

RYUUMONOHOZUKIMARU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In spirit.