you're bias is obvious.
um, no?
You assert Kazuya was mentally conflicted when he fought Hehachi...but we know he became Devil. So your conjecture is just that.
But it's FACT Kazuya was unconscious from the moment of his and Jin's fight. He lay there throughout the whole fight between Hehachi and Jin, Jin going to kill Hehachi and leaving and only came to when the Jacks arrived.
Heihachi on the contrary, went from being nearly killed to sitting up and having to fight the army of robots.
So, yes, it's FACT Kazuya got a nice long nap to rest and Heihachi did not.
dude, hachi was slipping in and out of consciousness. as was evident...but i don't see the point of debating it with you since you're in denial. heck you even denied hachi was winded when he clearly was and was STATED to be so.
and as shown in the t5 intro both hachi and kaz got up simultaneously. kaz was out for longer, but hachi was unconscious for an unknown amount of time before that too. so basically hachi had THREE naps of unknown length!
-one when kaz pwned him with a glare
-two when jin smacked him around
-three when jin left
heck his first nap could just have been longer than kaz's when he lost to Jin. also jin was more pissed when he fought kaz cuz we see inside his mind and it was all rage for kazuya in T4. that was the most pissed weve seen jin since T3.
and besides, whats your point anyway?
kaz wasn't scathed when they were fighting the jacks either now was he? he looked perfectly normal and was breathing evenly...unlike his fossil of a father.
~Sado
dude, hachi was slipping in and out of consciousness. as was evident...
Nope. Jin's ending clearly shows Heihachi as very much conscious. We just see him sitting up in the T5 Intro. It's YOUR assertion this is so.
but i don't see the point of debating it with you since you're in denial. heck you even denied hachi was winded when he clearly was and was STATED to be so.
He put his arms down and stood back. Maybe he was planning on leaving? As I've said, he doesn't look winded.
Sorry if your definition of winded doesn't conform with mine. i go by what we see and he DOESN'T look winded to me.
and as shown in the t5 intro both hachi and kaz got up simultaneously.
As SPECIFICLALY shown in jin's ending, Heihachi is FULLY conscious.
-one when kaz pwned him with a glare
Which was obviously no time at all as Heihachi was RIGHT there when kazuya was defeated.
-two when jin smacked him around
Fully conscious, actually. He's thrown onto his butt and we see his arms propping himself up, IIRC.
heck his first nap could just have been longer than kaz's when he lost to Jin
Well, you're free to think that. No proof and Heihachi actually standing right there like nothing happened while Kazuya is laid out implies otherwise.
also jin was more pissed when he fought kaz cuz we see inside his mind and it was all rage for kazuya in T4.
Stated by the omniscient narrator that Jin wants to destroy both Heihachi and Kazuya and the reason we see that in Jin's mind is because Kazuya is torturing him.
In fact, this claim falls flat on his face because while Jin was content to knock Kazuya out, he was actually about to kill Heihachi.
So, evidence says Jin was just as pissed at both of them.
and besides, whats your point anyway?
That Kazuya got nice sleep while Heihachi was chucked across a room, then nearly killed and all the time he hardly got any rest.
IMO Heihachi never lost consciousness during the fight with Jin.
Jin was about to deal the killing blow...a helpless Heihachi struggled to save his hide....Jin flees...Heihachi takes a breath and then sits on his ass when he hears the choppers releasing the Jacks.
Kazuya was truly knocked out.
In any case they were portrayed very even IMO. Heihachi had just fought Jin...but he never lost consciousness. Kazuya took a nap...but he did lose consciousness--and that is a bad thing.
Kazuya was shown to have more raw power then Heihachi while the old man showed more martial arts skills.
Case in point Kazuya grabbing a Jack and throwing it against 4 Jacks in a row and having all of them destroy while Heihachi deals with the Jacks one at a time with kickass Mishima Ryu blows.
Yes...I have watched the intro countless times. They even take out the same number of Jacks before good ole Kazuya tossed Heihachi into the oven.
IMO Heihachi never lost consciousness during the fight with Jin.
Nik, you can go say all the stuff you want....fact of the matter is they clearly said he was winded. you have nothing to go on with....and no one here really cares what you think against canon facts. simply put.
Which was obviously no time at all as Heihachi was RIGHT there when kazuya was defeated.
Stated by the omniscient narrator that Jin wants to destroy both Heihachi and Kazuya and the reason we see that in Jin's mind is because Kazuya is torturing him.In fact, this claim falls flat on his face because while Jin was content to knock Kazuya out, he was actually about to kill Heihachi.
So, evidence says Jin was just as pissed at both of them.
now get a life and stopping arguing with what the gamemakers are saying.
~Sado
jin and kaz's fight could have gone on for a while at the very least. hachi was ko'd long before that. fact of the matter is, it isn't clear but a good bet to him being out for a while was that it officially said that kaz and jin's bout was very intense. intense bouts don't finish in a minute.
Wow. Can you actually prove anything you say?
First Angel is Jun.
Now intense battles must be long.
Your entire case seems to revolve around your ideas, as opposed to what you can prove.
I'm not interested in what you think. I'm interested in what is canon and we can actually debate with.
wow....how about you actually read the t5 official story before talking then.
I need to? We're talking about Tekken 4. We see what is happening.
-jin was abotu to kill BOTH of them, starting with hachi
Well...that's exactly what I said.
So, what's your problem?
-both were unconscious
Heihachi was clearly conscious, thanks.
now get a life and stopping arguing with what the gamemakers are saying.
Would you agree "what the gamemakers are saying" includes what's canonically shown in the game and what they say happened?
'cause that's what I'm doing. And it backs up every word I say.
Let's look over what I said that you seem to have gotten your panties in a bunch over.
Stated by the omniscient narrator that Jin wants to destroy both Heihachi and Kazuya
Stated directly in his Tekken 4 Prologue.
and the reason we see that in Jin's mind is because Kazuya is torturing him.
We see into Jin's mind around the time Kazuya is making his body glow and that mark appear.
So, safe bet he was doing something to Jin, correct? And what do we see in jin's mind? His father torturing him.
In fact, this claim falls flat on his face because while Jin was content to knock Kazuya out, he was actually about to kill Heihachi.
Also fact, as directly shown. Jin started off by trying to kill heihachi, not his father.
As you seem to like doing, you inserted your own ideas into what actually happened to try and buffy up Kazuya.
"Oh but Jin was MORE MADDER AT KAZUYA!!"
I actually used facts to disprove this foolish notion and it's an extremely lame attempt to make Kazuya appear stronger, BTW.
Alright, I read your page on Heihachi and Kazuya and it totally confirms the fact you have a huge slant to Kazuya. Also, I thought a theory was supposed to be something based on facts but is itself not fact? Like you’ll take information and expound upon it with your own belief, thus having the root of proof? Well, your...writing here isn’t a theory then. Ithas a firm roof of your own opinion, not fact.
For those of you who don't know this: Kazuya never once made the pact with Devil for power. He made it for LIFE as he was going to die.
You do realize by definition, power is what he got?
He received the POWER to LIVE.
And he actively used Devil later on when his life was not in danger.
Also if you think that Heihachi is his own man and has his own power, you are gravely mistaken. Heihachi has used the powers of some scrolls (i believe the same that Feng Wei was after) and used it to make himself stronger
So...you ASSUME he used the Scrolls?
Seems highly unlikely as in all endings, Jinpachi has them for some reason.
And Heihachi is a Mishima. All the things he’s done are well within the power of his bloodline.I see no reason to believe Heihachi got secret mystical uber scrolls we’ve never seen before to do all the things he’s been doing since Tekken 1.
Notice how there is always a subtle explanation given by Namco so as to why Kazuya lost
What the hell?
It’s not an explanation why he lost. It’s Plot Development for the history of Tekken. They are explaining what was going on between the father and mother of the series’ main protagonist.
Devil too gets whacked. All Heihachi fans started yakking
Wow. Aren’t we unbiased and impartial.
but the real reason was simple: he beat Kazuya because Kazuya was mentally too disturbed to fight properly and he beat Devil because Kazuya wasn't a hateful person that he used to be making him an unworthy host for Devil to execute his full power.
Um...Kazuya BECAME Devil. He fully manifested as Devil. If he hadn’t fully transformed, like Jin, it’s possible to believe some mental restraint was around. But, also like Jin, once he fully manifested as Devil it is a sure sign the Devil is the dominant entity and we see no lack of power.
Your theory about him being weakened is based on nothing. His love for Jun has no relevance in the presence of the man he’s hated nearly his whole life and turned into Devil to fight. It in fact implies he totally gave into Devil to try and beat his father. And failed.
And also half of Devil had already gone inside Jun or rather in Jin
Uh...that happened after Heihachi beat the crap out of Kazuya as told to us by Devil.
“Twenty years ago, I lost a part of myself WHEN you nearly killed me.”
Once again notice the subtle explanation Namco has given for Kazuya's defeat: he was only at half his power.
Again...it’s just the effin’ plot. You make it sound like Namco is rushing to explain why Kazuya lost to make sure everyone knows he’s better and dint’ lose fairly.
Don't believe me, okay think about it: Jin is stronger than both Thong-man
You’re about as fair and balanced as Fox News.
Originally posted by Sado22I'm afraid it's going to require way more than just telling him to do that to get him to quit. srsly
wow....how about you actually read the t5 official story before talking then. not only do you argue with what it clearly states you go around saying this also. let me sum it up:
-jin was abotu to kill BOTH of them, starting with hachi
-both were unconscious
-hachi was winded'now get a life and stopping arguing with what the gamemakers are saying.
~Sado
You're not exactly one to be criticizing, GG.
I have proven all the stuff Sado says wrong.
"ZOIMG HEIHACHI WAS UNCONSCIOUS!!"
He wasn't. As cleary shown in Jin's CANOn ending.
"ZOMG Jin was more angry at Kazuya!"
Flatly proven wrong by the narrator and again, Jin's ending.
Sado uses some extremely weak arguments. Especially that BS about Devil leaving Kazuya.
Wow. Can you actually prove anything you say?
First Angel is Jun.
Now intense battles must be long.
Your entire case seems to revolve around your ideas, as opposed to what you can prove.
I'm not interested in what you think. I'm interested in what is canon and we can actually debate with.
and....no need to get personal now, nik. i'm trying to be civil for the sake of no flaming. so stay in your place.
weak arguments? lets see. first of all you come out here and its painfully obvious how little you know. you haven't read any of hte prologues for even tekken3 or tekken2 or tekken1 and still spew your n00bish bs in the face of facts.
You do realize by definition, power is what he got? He received the POWER to LIVE. And he actively used Devil later on when his life was not in danger.
I need to? We're talking about Tekken 4. We see what is happening.
Um...Kazuya BECAME Devil. He fully manifested as Devil. If he hadn’t fully transformed, like Jin, it’s possible to believe some mental restraint was around. But, also like Jin, once he fully manifested as Devil it is a sure sign the Devil is the dominant entity and we see no lack of power.
Your theory about him being weakened is based on nothing. His love for Jun has no relevance in the presence of the man he’s hated nearly his whole life and turned into Devil to fight. It in fact implies he totally gave into Devil to try and beat his father. And failed.
We see into Jin's mind around the time Kazuya is making his body glow and that mark appear.
Oh but Jin was MORE MADDER AT KAZUYA!!"
I actually used facts to disprove this foolish notion and it's an extremely lame attempt to make Kazuya appear stronger, BTW.
He received the POWER to LIVE.
So...you ASSUME he used the Scrolls?
Seems highly unlikely as in all endings, Jinpachi has them for some reason. And Heihachi is a Mishima. All the things he’s done are well within the power of his bloodline.I see no reason to believe Heihachi got secret mystical uber scrolls we’ve never seen before to do all the things he’s been doing since Tekken 1.
Wow. Aren’t we unbiased and impartial.
Uh...that happened after Heihachi beat the crap out of Kazuya as told to us by Devil. “Twenty years ago, I lost a part of myself WHEN you nearly killed me.”
Again...it’s just the effin’ plot. You make it sound like Namco is rushing to explain why Kazuya lost to make sure everyone knows he’s better and dint’ lose fairly.
You’re about as fair and balanced as Fox News
~Sado
been doing it since i came here. unlike you i don't reject what is written as the T5 prologue by the makers themselves just cuz i feel that it isn't.
What the gamemakers say < what the gamemakers show.
proof was there in TTT which was a non-canon game, but didn't involve anything outside of canon in a way.
Yeah..stoppred reading at non-canon.
Also Devil turns into Kazuya. Why doesn't Jun turn into Agenl?
Stop using BS non-existent scenes to support your crumbling argument.
. i assume you'll be having periods and your thong is in a bundle over this, so i'll elaborate. try wrapping your n00bish head around this:
NON-CANON!
-what is the difference between what Jun did in TTT to what Asuka did in T5?
Jun put her hand over Jin's forehead and a white light appeared.
Asuka touched Jin and his Devil aspect receded.
BTW, neither of those things happened. Stop using non-existent events.
so wait....intense means what exactly? that it was over in seconds?
Intense is not a timeframe. It's a term to describe something. Thus, an intense battle can be any range of time.
i ASSUME intense fights go for at least a minute
Sums up your entire "case."
sure....considering what little squat you know about tekken
I dare say I know more about it than you.
No one who thinks Angel is Jun knows anything about Tekken.
doesn't seem that way....after all you are still denying that hachi wasn't winded when it clearly said he was.
I don't care what it says. i care what it shows.
Perhaps you have heard of comics? There is sometimes a case where statements conflict with depictions. What is said won't match up with what is shown. This is such a case, except with a game and not a comic.
lets see. first of all you come out here and its painfully obvious how little you know.
Me? How little I know? YOU are the tard who tries to say what Jun did in TTT and what Asuka did in T5 are similar. That right there shows you know absolutely nothing.
you haven't read any of hte prologues for even tekken3 or tekken2 or tekken1 and still spew your n00bish bs in the face of facts.
lUm...i read all those Prologues and bud, the one on Tekkenpedia that you are using isn't the one I have. It isn't like the Tekken 3 Prologue in the manual at all.
like when? the only time kaz did use devil was in T4 and T5.
and do you know that the only person to CANONICALLY fight devil was ONLY jun kazama. all it said about kaz and hachi in the t3 prologue was that they fought and kaz lost. in t4 it said the same thing for kaz's prologue. he was beaten by hachi and tossed off into the volcano. the only person who did fight devil was jun. try reading before you debate with me again, son. you come out here and bs about one thing after another when you haven't even read the prologues of tekken3. wtf?
it clearly stated there that after kaz was thrown in the volcano, DEVIL LEFT KAZUYA'S BODY and tried to possess the baby in Jun (that being Jin). any arguments, n00b? the day namco states that Hachi beat devil instead of hachi beat kazuya i'll sway in my opinion.
Yep. As Devil itself clearly states, he left Kazuya AFTER Heihachi nearly killed them both.
And in Tekken 2, Kazuya clearly becomes Devil as the final boss. So...yep, Heihachi beat Devil.
so smart. funny how every tournament's canon info is given in the prologue of the next one. but you'd have only known that if you actually read them.
Stop looking at Tekkenpedia, newb.
its fan made myth, nik. canonwise, its not known if devil ever even fought hachi because all that is said is that hachi beat KAZUYA not devil....and that Devil actually fought Jun kazama. once agian...it would've helped if you actually read those before yakking.
“Twenty years ago, I lost a part of myself WHEN you nearly killed me.”
notice also that hachi didn't even know who devil was in T4. when kazy's eye start glowing and all, first hachi is shitting in his pants and on top of all that he asks him "who are you?" upon which Devil says "i am what you call devil". why would they be exchanging "pleasantries" if they've already met 20 years ago, nik?
I'll just quote what you said. It shows how laughable your argument is.
"i am what you call devil"
So...........Devil kinda disagrees with you. He's saying point blank Heihachi knows what he is.
Not to mention Heihachi sent the Tekken Force to G Corporation to get Kazuya's body for the uh.............DEVIL GENE?
But Heihachi doesn't know what Devil is.....
what bull!
and i was stating what how it seemed to me. and funny, how I was the one who pointed out to your dumbass that jin was trying to kill them both when you insisted it was hachi. or at least that was the impression i was getting at any rate.
YOu said that Jin hated Kazuya more. -I- said the hate was even for both his father and grandfather.
sure...the prologues states otherwise. devil said he'll give him the power to defeat his father.
Why do you keep contradicting yourself?
"For those of you who don't know this: Kazuya never once made the pact with Devil for power. He made it for LIFE as he was going to die."
coming from the shin_remy pallete swap who has been raging on kazuya since day one....gee, i'm offended
I don't remember me constantly using childish nicknames like "thong-man" to insult Kazuya.
And I don't use my dislike for Kazuya as part of my debate. You constantly insult Heihachi as part of your argument.
read the prologues, son.
So...now you flatly ignore canon quotes from DEVIL ITSELF?
Devil left Kazuya after Heihachi beat him. FACT.
and YOU conveniently never even respond when i point out the WTFPwnage kazy did to him a few hour later at honmaru that clearly supports the "dive" scenario that i didn't even update this theory page with yet.
There's nothing to respond to.
Heihachi can't counter telekinesis.
So...what is he gonna do when kaz hits him with it?
FYI, Devil didn't have TK in Tekken 2. He has eye blasts. There was also no Devil Gene.
Things have changed over the years and the plot has expanded.
actually i am. but keep it between us cool
next time you wanna "debate" with me, boy, do it after you at least read the prologues of the T1, T2 and T3. as long as you don't, you're just the tekken equivalent of Shin_Lemy.
its not even funny, nik. first u rage on kaz for like almost a week now but go into emo hissyfit mode if we defend kaz. and here i was trying to be civil
Yeah...this from the guy who directly ignores a quote from Devil itself, in canon, about what happened.
Sado, concede on this.
THIS is what you said
"And also half of Devil had already gone inside Jun or rather in Jin."
http://www.freewebs.com/thedemon23/Kazuya_heihachi.htm
FROM THE CANON PART OF KAZUYA ENDING IN TEKKEN 4.
“Twenty years ago, I lost a part of myself WHEN you nearly killed me.”
Just concede the fact you. Were. Wrong. Devil itself flatly says he went into Jin AFTER Heihachi beat him. Not before, as you said.
Kazuya had Devil fully inside him when he fought Heihachi. Just admit you were wrong.
okay nikkolas, firstly you can go f--k yourself since i really don't care how much you BS yourself about "saying and showing" since you were wrong no matter how much you spew your crap. you're a retarded fagg0t and its been painfully obvious since day one.
so i'll just respond to this part and then you can go back to the n00bish hell you came from and suck shin-remy's little pecker for as long as you want. fact of the matter is no one cares and as everyone else, i probably shouldn't have bothered with you little cuntass.
Yeah..stoppred reading at non-canon.
Also Devil turns into Kazuya. Why doesn't Jun turn into Agenl?
stop using BS non-existent scenes to support your crumbling argument.
~Sado
P.S. F--k you 🙂
Originally posted by Shin_NikkolasYou've proven nothing srsly. And those two statements are completely wrong making your post even more pathetic. Heihachi fell unconscious twice. Once against Kazuya who knocked him out with a glare, and a second time against Jin. This is proven by the fact that Heihachi was out cold during the bout between Jin and Kazuya. In the T5 intro Heihachi wakes up from a slumber after losing to Jin. He was knocked out twice.
You're not exactly one to be criticizing, GG.I have proven all the stuff Sado says wrong.
"ZOIMG HEIHACHI WAS UNCONSCIOUS!!"
He wasn't. As cleary shown in Jin's CANOn ending.
"ZOMG Jin was more angry at Kazuya!"
Flatly proven wrong by the narrator and again, Jin's ending.
Sado uses some extremely weak arguments. Especially that BS about Devil leaving Kazuya.
Jin was undeniably more angry at Kazuya you n00b. Listen to what he tells him before their fight in Honmaru. srsly
Originally posted by Sado22Now now Sado, no need to start a flame war, if you do I'll get involved in it, and you can't beat me in a flame war.🙂
okay nikkolas, firstly you can go f--k yourself since i really don't care how much you BS yourself about "saying and showing" since you were wrong no matter how much you spew your crap. you're a retarded fagg0t and its been painfully obvious since day one.
so i'll just respond to this part and then you can go back to the n00bish hell you came from and suck shin-remy's little pecker for as long as you want. fact of the matter is no one cares and as everyone else, i probably shouldn't have bothered with you little cuntass.my question was what is differnet about jun and angel according to the TTT ending?
😆
and don't play around the argument, fagg0t. seeing you don't answer my question confirms to me that you are pansyassslut who can't back up one thing he says cuz you're a ****!
go spew your n00bish bull somewhere else, pussy****.~Sado
P.S. F--k you 🙂
LOL when someone tells you you suck ass you respond with a "No YOU suck ass". 😛
I'm fooling around so...yeah.
Heihachi was once greater than Kazuya, perhaps, but as of T5 Kazuya > Heihachi. Heihachi became tired eventually when he was fighting the hordes of JACKs. Kazuya showed no sign of fatigue whatsoever, and as Sado stated, age means crap in the Tekken series. srsly