Superman vs Goku (Official Thread)

Originally posted by Creshosk
And trolls are people too. As was pol pot, as was Saddam huisein. as was Hitler.

Yet you wouldn't expect me to treat them with the same respect as Those I actually like on this site do you?

Frankly I would, no matter how corrupt some one is, they still deserve as much respect as anyone else, thats what the moral of every Super hero is, thats what they are trying to accomplish, thats what the bible said, thats what man kind says.

What have you done to deserve the respect of members like Badabing, Raoul, batdude zietgeist or Skeets?

You've come into a previously established community and are dictating to them the rules of a thread that was already established.

Now what is a person who goes into a community and disrupts it called?

I have never done anything inhuman like the men you listed, and I did not dictate to anyone the rules, I simply repeated them, if anyone is dictating new rules, its you.

Originally posted by Combat_Guru
Frankly I would,

Then how come you don't? How come you disregard the rules, even the soft ones? How come you came here and attempted to change the rules that someone else previously established?

You certainly DON'T show respect for the other members of this forum. You DON'T respect the mods. So how can you make such a claim when you act in the exact opposite way that you claim?

Originally posted by Combat_Guru
no matter how corrupt some one is, they still deserve as much respect as anyone else, thats what the moral of every Super hero is,

Originally posted by Combat_Guru
thats what they are trying to accomplish, thats what the bible said, thats what man kind says.

Originally posted by Combat_Guru
I have never done anything inhuman like the men you listed,

Originally posted by Combat_Guru
and I did not dictate to anyone the rules,

Seems like you DID dictate rules against that which was already established.

Originally posted by Combat_Guru
I simply repeated them,

Originally posted by Combat_Guru
if anyone is dictating new rules, its you.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t461496.html

Originally posted by Creshosk
You'd treat someone who's killed hundreds of people with as much respect as a moderator?

Then how come you don't? How come you disregard the rules, even the soft ones? How come you came here and attempted to change the rules that someone else previously established?

You certainly DON'T show respect for the other members of this forum. You DON'T respect the mods. So how can you make such a claim when you act in the exact opposite way that you claim?

Your range of scope is EXTREMELY limited if you think that.

Uh you'd better go read that book again.

Way to miss the point. That being that someone whom breaks the rules does not deserve as much respect as those that do.

No? Aren't you the one that ignored the rule about canon fights and dictated that we are to use Superman from the movie? Aren't you the one who dictated that we cannot use anything past freiza?

Seems like you DID dictate rules against that which was already established.

Repeated them from where?

No, I'm dictating already existing rules.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t461496.html

Are you saying that the bible doesn't teach the golden rule, or that the rules on this forum say calling some one a douchebag is allowed???????

Big mis assumptions.

Originally posted by Combat_Guru
Are you saying that the bible doesn't teach the golden rule,

Originally posted by Combat_Guru
or that the rules on this forum say calling some one a douchebag is allowed???????

Big mis assumptions.

Or should I point out where according to YOU, you can still call someone a douchebag indirectly, and then you say that I only see sdouchebags because all I see is myself.

Based on those to arguments you're the one that called me a douchebag. hmm

Originally posted by Creshosk
Again, go read it. It's obvious that you are cherry picking what it says... There's a shocker, you cherry picking evidence.

Again, Post proof of your claim. 😄 Where did I call you a douchebag directly?

Or should I point out where according to YOU, you can still call someone a douchebag indirectly, and then you say that I only see sdouchebags because all I see is myself.

Based on those to arguments you're the one that called me a douchebag. hmm

You don't know people over the internet, you see their avatar, and you don't know their secret identity, you judged some one you didn't know, me, in order for you to do that you'd have to attribute them to something you don't like about yourself. You obviously don't know much about the world, your probably just a kid, but try to make sense of what some one says before you criticize it.

Originally posted by Combat_Guru
You don't know people over the internet, you see their avatar, and you don't know their secret identity, you judged some one you didn't know, me, in order for you to do that you'd have to attribute them to something you don't like about yourself. You obviously don't know much about the world, your probably just a kid, but try to make sense of what some one says before you criticize it.

Yeah guess what? That's a load of bunk. You reveal quite a bit about your self based on your posts even without saying so.

What you just described is called "projection". And no, You're the one that's trolling. It's not something I dislike in myself that I see in others. You are trolling.

Its a cute defense and troll tactic to deny that one is trolling to make these claims. But face facts you came into a previously established community and disrupted it by dictating rules about what is usuable and what isn't which go against previously established rules. You can keep saying that you didn't. But I already linked you to the rules. Want me to cite the specific rule about using canon material?

Or how about the one about using evidence?

Yet you presume to dictate what is and is not useable, thus violating that rule. Blatently. So riddle me this, what do you call a person whom goes into a previously established community and blatently disregards the rules they have set up there?

It's called trolling. Its not projection. IT is something that you have earned through your "actions".

Deny it all you want. it doesn't change the fact that you are a troll.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Oh that "You don't know me" line?

Yeah guess what? That's a load of bunk. You reveal quite a bit about your self based on your posts even without saying so.

What you just described is called "projection". And no, You're the one that's trolling. It's not something I dislike in myself that I see in others. You are trolling.

Its a cute defense and troll tactic to deny that one is trolling to make these claims. But face facts you came into a previously established community and disrupted it by dictating rules about what is usuable and what isn't which go against previously established rules. You can keep saying that you didn't. But I already linked you to the rules. Want me to cite the specific rule about using canon material?

Or how about the one about using evidence?

Yet you presume to dictate what is and is not useable, thus violating that rule. Blatently. So riddle me this, what do you call a person whom goes into a previously established community and blatently disregards the rules they have set up there?

It's called trolling. Its not projection. IT is something that you have earned through your "actions".

Deny it all you want. it doesn't change the fact that you are a troll.

I'm not going to argue with you, because it's as pointless as arguing with a brick wall.

You don't know me, and I don't know you. Thats why I don't judge you, this narcissistic attitude you have is very irritating. If you don't want to listen to me, why argue?

I'm done with this thread. Good luck being a child.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Yeah guess what? That's a load of bunk. You reveal quite a bit about your self based on your posts even without saying so.

Yes, indeed.

Take you for example. You try to portray yourself as a hard ass stifler for facts and logic but you are just a romantic and you are one of the nicest people I have ever met...internet or real life. I don't care what other posters say...you are genuinely nice. That's how it rolls.

Back on topic...

My coworker, who is a ridiculously rabid DB fan, said that there is a website out there that tries to explain some of the stupid idiotic plot holes in the DB universe such as gravity manipulation.

No matter how hard anyone tries, the DB universe is just too illogical to compare to the Superman universe. (post crisis, of course.) There are some fallacies in the comics, yes...but it would seem more quantifiable than the DB universe. By all reckoning, the main fighters in the DB universe should be blowing away planets with just regular shots by the end of the series. Why is it not this way? Simple...Toriyama couldn't tell a damned story if they progressed logically. We love the DB universe not for its plot holes or the 3 episode power ups...we love it because it has action and nice "over coming the odds against evil" stories.

And it's also good at keeping people in suspense too but I see what you mean. The DC universe is very deep and makes more sense than the DBZ universe.

what it boils down to is that supes crushes goku, end of story.

Originally posted by Combat_Guru
I'm not going to argue with you, because it's as pointless as arguing with a brick wall.

You don't know me, and I don't know you. Thats why I don't judge you, this narcissistic attitude you have is very irritating. If you don't want to listen to me, why argue?

I'm done with this thread. Good luck being a child.

Even when backing off of an argument you attempt to instiagate something.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes, indeed.

Take you for example. You try to portray yourself as a hard ass stifler for facts and logic but you are just a romantic and you are one of the nicest people I have ever met...internet or real life. I don't care what other posters say...you are genuinely nice. That's how it rolls.

Originally posted by Combat_Guru
Back on topic...

My coworker, who is a ridiculously rabid DB fan, said that there is a website out there that tries to explain some of the stupid idiotic plot holes in the DB universe such as gravity manipulation.

No matter how hard anyone tries, the DB universe is just too illogical to compare to the Superman universe. (post crisis, of course.) There are some fallacies in the comics, yes...but it would seem more quantifiable than the DB universe. By all reckoning, the main fighters in the DB universe should be blowing away planets with just regular shots by the end of the series. Why is it not this way? Simple...Toriyama couldn't tell a damned story if they progressed logically. We love the DB universe not for its plot holes or the 3 episode power ups...we love it because it has action and nice "over coming the odds against evil" stories.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
[B]Am i suppose to defend myself from what i'm counting to be 50 or some comments. Hmmmm... I try my best.... lets do the first come first serve rule.
- The knowledge I have on superman is absolute nor is more knowledge of Goku absolute but based on the information I have on both I suspect that Goku is can win. I do not have time to gather the infromation to poke holes in superman's history and decide what is canon and non-canon and what is amissable and what is not. In that aspect you do seem to have the upper hand.

So why should we listen to your arguments if you admit you don't know what you're talking about?

- Goku was powering up and the blast of powering up not actually touching anything was push away boulder and break hills/mountains. I do agree in that less powerful state superman would beat him.

That's a ki effect, not physical strength.

- Cell did beat Goku in the first encounter, but i was talking about later in the time line where he was able to toy with cell and Freeza with ease in the otherworld.

Not canon

- "Teleportation does not equal movement speed." I already Agreed on that i was saying that in combat being at multiple places at once would be used the simarily tactically in battle as great speed would be used. If superman did face a enemy that can go blow to blow with him but he was able to manipulate portals like Janeba, yes Supes would be in trouble.

So I guess The Spot, who is a Spider-man villain, would beat Superman according to your logic.

- Goku is not a human or a mutant but alien like Supes, he is the SS the best warrior the universe has to offer not my own opinion of Goku its just whats stated in the comics.

The best his universe has to offer (and that's not even true, like I said, Mystic Gohan is stronger than him). Refer to my ant analogy.

- Goku had whole fights that no human or mutant no matter how much training they had could see. Almost all of goku fights as adult is beyond visually seeing for average being.

Blatant lie. Goku has never fought invisibly for an entire fight (unless you count the times when he knocks his opponets out right in the first instant to be "fights"😉. DBZ characters can only move that fast for short bursts lasting several seconds to a minute at a time.

Why do you insist on comparing Wolverine to Goku???

Because Wolverine has moved faster than people could see/react to.

- Can Goku speed be denied? If I can't prove his speed can it be disproved that he can't be faster then superman or can someone just say because we can prove superman speed and can't prove goku speed therefor it must be safe to assume Supes speed > Goku speed due to evidence from one side and not both.

Okay, this is how it works:

- One side shows feats that establish a character at a certain level of speed. We've done this.

- In order to prove another character is faster, you must show your own feats and derive a higher figure from them. You have not done this.

This also goes for the sun heat demon thing. Yeah, i know we can measuer the heat of the sun but i'm saying we can't measure the heat of a demon fire in GT but wait GT doesn't count right???

Right

Anyway I know the HV from supes is hotter then the sun i'm trying to compare it to the heat of a demon and i'm saying thats tough to argue because as far as I know scientists have not measured demon firepower.

Appeal to ignorance. You can't just say "it could be hotter, we don't know", you have to quantify it, or it's meaningless.

- Maybe you take my words to the letter, and maybe I should be more exact. I know of superman, and I know some of his accomplishments, I may not have read all his comics, but i know enough to make judgement; you may disagree. I mean if I do not know everything about both sides should i just keep my opinions to myself because someone who know more than me but not necessarily better than me wants to prove to me that i'm a liar, "a troll, someone lacking obvious knowledge" It is true what I say I do genuinly want to know much of superman and this seems to be the place because you guys don't seem to be mindless fanboys and I will continue this conversation as it is reasonable.

The problem is not that you don't know everything, it's that you lack knowledge of even many basic facts regarding both combatants.

- back to the lightspeed stuff if a person shoots a energy beam which I can assume goes as fast as light because it acts much like light

Wrong, wrong, wrong. DBZ ki is not light. Not only does it not move as fast or nearly as fast as light (normal humans can see ki blasts in flight, for example), it acts nothing like light. Actual beams of light are invisible unless they are in a refractive medium. They also don't move in balls, change directions in mid-air, become discs, explode upon impact, or do anything of the funky stuff DBZ ki attacks do.

teh Dragon punch usage is the same reason why superman doesn't cheapen himself but just speedblitzing everyone, throw people into the sun, and any other end game moves because its not the way comics work. If heros used such tactics alot it would make it boring and less dramatic.

The move is not canon anyway, and you have no evidence to support your claim that it's unbeatable and can't be survived.

- If SSJ 3 is no different then SS4 then why make it?

I never said it was no different, just that its feats were not any more impressive. As for making it, it was created by the Toei animators who made DBGT in order to make more money, after Toriyama had quit.

"Actually he lost, and he was 14. Thanks for proving you know absolutely nothing about both Goku and Superman." Sorry for the age difference and does this mean Goku is not good at martial arts fighting? Does I was wrong i'm a lair sorry if I got mixed but sorry won't be enough. Has Goku never won a tournament in his childhood?

No, he has not. He didn't win the Budokai until he beat Picollo when he was a teenager.

- The devil the big red guy, gatekeeper of life and death couldn't stop him from coming back to life, there was no actual fight.

Are you talking about Dabura? He never tried to "stop anyone from coming back to life".

Why do you insist that Goku is a snail compared to Supes. Even without his speed can't goku simply teleport away from the cold breath

Not if he can't react fast enough to do so. You do know that he has to lock onto a ki signature, and then think, to teleport, right?

and if for some reason does get caught can't he just treleprt of or break free with his omni direction ki force.

Not if he can't think because his brain is frozen.

-Endless you seem to be misunderstanding me... and twisting my words to make it so if everyting is not 100% true and correct it is 100% false and in correct.

When did I ever say that?

- Don't bring in Karate KId, i'm sure he is fantastic and all but i don't know anything beyond what I saw in the movies with Ralph lol but seriously idk who he is. <-- USe this to ague and say "Lord feron dosent know the kate kid and in relation does not know superman in relation does not know DC there fore he is a foolish troll that lies about everything." LIke good lord freaking relax!

DC's Karate kid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karate_Kid_%28comics%29

- In the end did he not beat everyone of the characters ?

No, he needed help, and several times they were beaten by other people instead.

- your ant and tank comparison is silly because that is opinionated

No it's not, I'm just pointing out the problems with your logic. "A defeated B, therefore A can defeat anyone" is obviously fallacious.

- Was raditz that fast? I didn't think he was, seemed too low level.

He wasn't, I was pointing out the problems with the dub.

- Are you say mystic gohan is stronger than any SSJ level of Goku?

Yes. SSJ3 Goku (the strongest canon form) had trouble beating Fat Buu, and was only able to hurt Super Buu with a sneak attack, whereas Mystic Gohan was stronger than Super Buu.

- Pleaase read, I didn't say goku broke planets or held Black holes I was refering to Supes in that instant.

You said he could do those things without conscious effort.

- IT is exactly what is is instant, is instant faster then laightspeed? I am arguing this because you want to.

Yes, but it is teleportation, not speed.

- "And here comes the appeal to motive fallacy" you assume that what I said is some kind of last resort and me giving up and making a poor excuse for myself. you twists my words and try to create some sophistical image of me. I was pointing out I will have lots of resistence in this forum but it is to be expected.

And I was pointing out that you're using a logical fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_motive

- Idk who the spot is therefore I won't say anything but i take your word for it. Spiderman has spider sense which can precog his enemies attempts to hurt him. This gives him a considerable advantage and now to assume i think spider man moves faster then superman speed would be a effort to belittle me which i do not appreciate.

Again, I was merely pointing out the flaws in your reasoning by way of analogy.

- I tried to make my tone as civil as possible I hope you gentlemen do the same.

So what if our tone isn't civil? Are you going to then dismiss our arguments? Because that would be a style-over-substance fallacy.

Can't IT compensate for his lack in speed? use it to be where superman doesn't expect him to be and hit him with a blast. I think Goku was able to charge an attack and IT somehwere near (maybe behind him) the enemy and let the blast go without giving the enemy enuf time to react.

No, because he has to think to use IT, and lock onto a ki signature. And by the time he does, Superman will be somewhere else from where he was when Goku started. Not to mention you just defeated your own argument since you admitted Goku has to charge up first before using this maneuver, when he'll be vulnerable. Also, Superman can react faster than Cell, and is more durable.

I agree with you and how you explained IT but i'm assume Ki is life source taht all beings have and that Superman and enourmous amounts of it. He may not manifest it in energy projection like most DBZ chars but he displays it in his strength, willpower, flight and all his powers.

Wrong. Superman's powers are fueled by solar energy, not ki.

- I agree that Goku has lots of help from people that just seems to be the writing style. I think if Goku stood alone he would have the ability to fight off supes.

Yet you have not been able to provide valid arguments to support this view.

I think everyone might like to read what im about to write. I reading into Mr. Akira Y and his views on DBZGT. Interesting fact I learned / slash startling revelation. I always believed that it was a legitimate successor to DBZ and your words were rubbish.

Let's not bring writer interviews into this. There was an interview with Superman writer Joe Casey who stated that Superman could beat anyone, if you want to go down that path.

His heat vision barely heated a planet, it might be hotter than the sun per size weight ratio, but it still doesn't beat Freeza's death beam. A ball of Chi doesn't melt, because it's made of energy. Duh da duh! Freeza's death beam's potency was that of kinetic force, not just heat, so Superman's heat vision might be hotter, but it wouldn't be any more effective on Goku's skin.

Except the most the death beam ever did was destroy a few small hills, and HV has drilled through planets.

Oh, and guys, try debating the actual points instead of getting into this petty flame war

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes, indeed.

Take you for example. You try to portray yourself as a hard ass stifler for facts and logic but you are just a romantic and you are one of the nicest people I have ever met...internet or real life. I don't care what other posters say...you are genuinely nice. That's how it rolls.

I might reveal some stuff about me, but you still don't know anything about me, if he's so worshipably nice then why did he call me a douchebag and then a liar and then deny it. And Creshosk, I proved you wrong about the laws of physics, and I'm still waiting for you to admit it. Seriously Creshosk, get over yourself, and dadudemon, you wouldn't like Creshosk if he called you a douchebag would you, or if he treated you with less decency than anyone else, would you, then why like him at all, because I could have been you. Creshosk is probably just immature, but he's acting very inhuman by not treating me with normal respect, but he's certainly not 'genuinely nice' He might be a nice person, but you have to be mature enough to treat everyone equally, whether you like them or not to earn that title.

combat guru, a polite civil troll who is unaware of the fact that he is a troll is, in fact, still a troll. you keep posting nonesense and then fail to back up your claims because, frankly, they can't be backed up because there is no proof supporting your view on many things.

also, what does it matter if creshosk is being mean or not? the fact of the matter is that he is destroying you in this debate, as you have failed to prove anything. the longer you keep posting in this thread and making stupid claims about goku and his abilities that have no merit, the more you'll get humiliated. superman crushes goku. sorry, but thats the way it is. get over it.

also, creshosk, i know you hate me and think i'm an idiot, but i've been trying to do a better job as a poster and i hope that someday i can earn a little respect from you, as i think you're an excellent debator and i respect your opinion on things. if you still think i'm an idiot though, than so be it.

Originally posted by emporerpants
also, creshosk, i know you hate me and think i'm an idiot, but i've been trying to do a better job as a poster and i hope that someday i can earn a little respect from you, as i think you're an excellent debator and i respect your opinion on things. if you still think i'm an idiot though, than so be it.

Wow, since when did an flamer become Jesus Christ???? 🙄

He's not an excellent debater at all, and neither are you, sorry.

Heres some proof that Goku's faster than movie Superman, he became an after image and Freeza's death beams went through his after image. He got within a safe distance of a megaton explosion in less time than it takes for matter to convert to energy, which itself is faster than light.

Durability, Freeza could destroy planets yet he couldn't destroy Goku, the very fact that Freeza tried to destroy Namek instead of Goku with his planet destroying attack is proof enough that Goku could withstand planet destroying attacks.

Strength, now I know Super Saiyan Goku hasn't shown any feats strong enough to lift a tectonic plate, which Superman did in the 1978 film, he didn't really use too much strength when propelling the island into orbit, or even throwing it in space. But a Super Saiyan can work around strength with Chi, movie Superman doesn't dodge crap, and a fresh Super Saiyan Goku can produce enough energy to destroy a planet extremely quickly, which was proven in many occasions including,

1: Super Saiyan Goku was fresh and never tired his entire fight with Freeza, he was never even out of breathe. Android 19 was sucking Vegeta's life out of him for a long period of time, yet Vegeta stayed fresh of energy, only losing little, now Super Saiyans don't have infinite energy, as shown with the Androids, but they do have enough to trap Superman in Chi balls powerful enough to destroy planets.

As for the things contradicting the Z fighters moving at light speed, they were not intentional, and all I needed to do was supply facts that proved he can move at light speed, and I did. Now, wheres your proof???

Originally posted by Combat_Guru
movie Superman

No Bias Claims
"Batman can beat Thor because he's cooler!" That's an example of how not to debate. We would like to see the rationale behind any claims that one character can beat the other rather than a claim based on popularity and subjective bias.
Also, we insist that all claims be backed up by evidence from canon sources. If you claim that Spiderman is stronger than Superman, then you have to prove it.

No Non-canon Sources
Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.

A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!).

This principle extends to characters with multiple versions, alternate timelines, etc. Unless specified by the thread starter, only current-version canon feats are allowed.

Originally posted by Combat_Guru
I proved you wrong about the laws of physics, and I'm still waiting for you to admit it.

Originally posted by emporerpants
combat guru, a polite civil troll who is unaware of the fact that he is a troll is, in fact, still a troll. you keep posting nonesense and then fail to back up your claims because, frankly, they can't be backed up because there is no proof supporting your view on many things.

also, what does it matter if creshosk is being mean or not? the fact of the matter is that he is destroying you in this debate, as you have failed to prove anything. the longer you keep posting in this thread and making stupid claims about goku and his abilities that have no merit, the more you'll get humiliated. superman crushes goku. sorry, but thats the way it is. get over it.

also, creshosk, i know you hate me and think i'm an idiot, but i've been trying to do a better job as a poster and i hope that someday i can earn a little respect from you, as i think you're an excellent debator and i respect your opinion on things. if you still think i'm an idiot though, than so be it.