Originally posted by VvendetaAnd Gokou can't lift 10 tons on each arm in his base form...And Spiderman can lift like 25 tons. He should be able to lift 10 tons with each hand and move.
That is what i call this a Toriyama mistake, but if you think spiderman could lift it...besides i would like to see spiderman move with 10 tons in each of his limbs.
Originally posted by VvendetaGokou was superior to Trunks in speed and power never in pure strength.
That is Specifically in that transformation. Increase of ki does improve speed and strength, ultil they reach a wall when SSJ. Goku find the way to break the wall, the prove is Gohan SSJ2, he did right what trunks did wrong, Goku also was Superior to Trunks.
If by strawman you mean I am anticipating your answers, is because I know your tactic.
Originally posted by VvendetaWhen is there anything to suggest he could do 40 tons without going ssj? And he had trouble pushing that rock and could barely move it at all. Plus pushing something is a lot easier than lift something. I can push heavier things than I can lift. Even if it is 5 tons doesn't mean Gokou can lift 5 tons.
I know, I mean that being 1 or 2 tons his first feat of strength and his follow training, he should have be able to do the 40 tons without SSJ, but Toriyama overlooked it. Like I said he was careless.
Here he is pushing a big Rock in his Training with Roshi. That rock is quantifiable. (Well guessing between 5 to 10 tons, what do you think?)
Originally posted by VvendetaGokou would have a hard time trying to find his ki. Superman doesn't use ki so he'd be weaker then Mr. Satan in ki.
Is he dead or a robot?
Even if he have bulma ki he has ki like every human, and that is another example of how different the universe works for them to be compare.There are other examples of superman being slow. The examples that you call low end points.
Inconsistency does not erase Goku speed. Low end point.
Superman is slow because he lowers himself down to his opponent and doesn't use his speed all the time as he could.
Gokou even at his highest has never shown close to light speed.
I ll Say disintegrate greatly, but is matter or opinion*snip*
And...? You just proved his point.
That is what i call this a Toriyama mistake, but if you think spiderman could lift it...besides i would like to see spiderman move with 10 tons in each of his limbs.
Now you're changing your entire argument. He was talking about the Z sword.
Is the speed which DB Z start, before all the trainings and progress.
only Sups soporters think he go slower.
Slower than what? You haven't even attempted to quantify his speed. Saying "Oh he's really fast" doesn't mean anything unless we know how fast.
*snip*
And what is that supposed to prove? Raditz is faster than Goku and Picollo. How is that quantifiable?
If you use arguments that because is impossible to tell the speed therefore is meaningless, is pointless debate with you, you really ignore his evolution speed in DB, therefore he is slow for you. He is fast for me.*snip*
You just don't get it, do you? Of course he's fast. But the question is, how fast? You haven't even attempted to answer that, and without doing so, your argument means nothing.
Mr Popo was faster than Goku Piccolo Daimao Arc after drinking the sacred water, in the second tournament, before Piccolo, Goku was invisible to Roshi who is at the speed of sound.
Roshi could react to things moving at the speed of sound (bullets). That means Goku is faster than sound. Sorry, that's not nearly enough.
Kamisama is faster than Mr. Popo.
How much faster?
He could not follow Goku and piccolo. Plus Kami can sense ki. But in DBZ he is s inferior in speed and power.
By how much?
There's no way to know since it is never shown. Therefore it's unquantifiable.
*snip*
Sorry, but I actually calculated this feat earlier. As shown in this scan (which you conveniently left out):
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8674/gokuspeedclaimac4.gif
We can see that Goku is moving between two points in the arena, about 2 meters away from each other (based on Goku and Krillin's height). The effective framerate of human vision is 1/60th of a second, so he would have to have been moving between those points 60 times every second. This translates to 120 meters per second, which is a little over 1/3rd the speed of sound.
That is Specifically in that transformation. Increase of ki does improve speed and strength, ultil they reach a wall when SSJ. Goku find the way to break the wall, the prove is Gohan SSJ2, he did right what trunks did wrong, Goku also was Superior to Trunks.
If by strawman you mean I am anticipating your answers, is because I know your tactic.
Do you even know what a strawman fallacy is? It means you're claiming I said things I never said.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman
The fact that such a "wall", as you put it, even existed proves that you can't just use ki levels to linearly extrapolate stats like speed and strength.
I know, I mean that being 1 or 2 tons his first feat of strength and his follow training, he should have be able to do the 40 tons without SSJ, but Toriyama overlooked it. Like I said he was careless.
So you think you are better qualified to judge the abilities of DBZ characters than Toriyama is?
Here he is pushing a big Rock in his Training with Roshi. That rock is quantifiable. (Well guessing between 5 to 10 tons, what do you think?) *snip*
Pushing something is a lot easier than lifting it. I can push my huge big-screen TV around, but I could never lift it.
That is your opinion Nappa is way Superior to Raditz, who is Way Superior to Piccolo and Goku that Kami could not follow.
But, as I've stated dozens of times already, that means nothing unless you can tell me exactly how much superior.
*snip*And don´t take this as this is the maximum speed of Goku.
How could I, if there's absolutely no way to tell how fast he's moving in those scans?
I never did.
Instead Saiyans can fight in high Gravity pass 100 g without any problem.[quote]Lie. The majority of the Saiya-jin race was nowhere near that strong. After training in 100 times gravity Frieza and his henchmen remarked that Goku was stronger than they thought was possible for a Saiya-jin. Not to mention that 100 times earth gravity is absolutely nothing to Superman.
[quote]Read Left to right
I know how to read manga, thank you very much.
🙄
*snip*[quote]So? All that proves is that Goku using Kaio-ken x1 is faster than Nappa. Without knowing how fast Nappa is, that means nothing.
[quote]The post 100 g training allow him to reach 20 kaioken top. The Sjj transformation surpass this increase of power of speed to match Freeza 100% and defeat him
And your point is...? None of that is quantifiable. Just because Kaio-ken x1 increases his ki and abilities, it doesn't prove that each other multiple increases his abilities linearly. It's already been demonstrated that an increase in ki is not necessarily correlated to an increase in speed or strength. For example, Burter was the fastest on the Ginyu force, but he was weaker than Captain Ginyu (he had a lower power level).
Show also they can talk at high speed, and that is the start of the series, that speed does not remain, it increase.
They were speaking during the recreation of the scene to the audience and announcer, not during the original interchange. Besides, that was early when they were barely below sound speed, they can't speak faster than sound (after all, how does sound travel faster than sound)?
You like to calculate, tell me at what speed will they be able to do after images?*snip*
After-images are a function of the brain not being able to process information from the eye correctly. There is no set speed at which they occur, it depends on the objects moving and the surroundings and conditions. For example, wave your hand in front of your computer monitor.
Rorouni Kenshin characters do similar things but they can't move at the speed of sound (except during their strongest moves).
Is he dead or a robot?
Even if he have bulma ki he has ki like every human, and that is another example of how different the universe works for them to be compare.
You can't simply state he has something that is specific to one series if it's never shown to be true in the other series. In DBZ, all living things have ki. That doesn't mean the same is true for every other universe.
There are other examples of superman being slow. The examples that you call low end points.
Which is irrelevant since he has proven himself to be capable of moving and reacting at superluminal speeds and DBZ characters have not.
Inconsistency does not erase Goku speed. Low end point.
You were just claiming this as a speed feat for him in the last post. 😆
And it's not inconsistent at all. Throughout the entire manga, normal humans can see and react to DBZ characters fighting.
Is hard to calculate without the authors numbers, so is down to opinions, Goku end of the manga is superior to kid Buu, my opinion according with the history.
That is completely contradicted by the facts. Goku could only last a few minutes in SSJ3 form, and even at SSJ3 Buu was kicking his ass. He needed to use a Genki Dama to beat him.
Goku is stronger that every good character non fusion able except Gohan until the Buu saga and debatable in the end of the manga 10 years laters, their powers are base on the same so Goku is can do pretty much all that the saiyans and the earlings can.
Goku has absolutely no feats after the last timeskip, unless you count a completely non - serious fight against an inexperienced kid who didn't even know how to use his powers.
I don´t have the depth of the crater, not specify in the manga, in the anime Krillin say he don’t see the button of it.
I don't remember that, but if that's the case, then it's unquantifiable.
Disintegrate a few cities, in other part of the planet they feel it like an earthquake, and is the power of a minor character.
The cities were just destroyed, not disintegrated, and the earthquake was felt on the same part of the planet. Stop making things up.
I use the 50% freeza = 20 kaioken of Goku
100% Freeza = SSJ Goku
100% Frieza was smacking around SSJ1 Goku at the beginning of the fight but Goku was slowly getting stronger and beat him at the end.
And you use big words like this:
Endless Mike:” that's nothing but speculation based on nothing more than unfounded extrapolation, not actual quantifiable feats”
And the maths of G plex has good points, only you and some other denied them.
By the way, using big words does not make you right, or likeable.
His math was completely flawed. He tried to say things like doding bullets = running at sound speed, that since the framerate of human vision is 1/60th of a second, he could just multiply speeds by 60 when someone couldn't see someone else (when what he was supposed to do was calculate the distance that person moved and then apply 1/60th of a second to it), that power levels were a linear indicator of speed and strength, that Goku got 3.3 times stronger every year after the Buu saga (with no evidence whatsoever)....
As for "using big words", that's just how I talk.
The last Freeza power level is in his second form more than million, duplicate that and you have the plural of million, consider Freeza perfect Form, Cell and Buu Saga powers and you have millions of times, the exact numbers are unknown, but is millions in increase.
For the thousandth time, power levels are meaningless for cross - universe comparison.
Here he is underestimated mostly by you, like when you say that his maximum of Goku is only 50 G, I was reading your past post.
Wrong, read my post again. I was using a scan where Goku said 50 times gravity was his limit (even though it really wasn't) to point out the hypocrisy of people saying the Calaton blast in Hunter/Prey was Superman's limit when he has much higher showings.
Not when he is in earth, he is not asking literally the sea or the atmosphere.*snip*
The sea and atmosphere aren't alive, and therefore are incapable of giving consent. Besides, he's saying "please". How is that not asking?
One thing is show what they do and what they say, DB needs translation a diference with Superman, if you are proving your point which what they say with this scan, it could be wrong, but what they do is not, mostly the scan is almost well translate it, but in that specific case, Goku was doing martial arts with 2 tons in each limb.
What? I couldn't parse that at all.
Power levels also read increase in speed and strength, overall power.
But not in any linear or logically predictable fashion.
Stop complaining, I am not breaking any rule.
That doesn't change the fact that it's annoying. However, you didn't do it this time, so good job.
And Gokou can't lift 10 tons on each arm in his base form...And Spiderman can lift like 25 tons. He should be able to lift 10 tons with each hand and move.
Actually Spidey is class 35 after The Other, IIRC.
Originally posted by VvendetaYour infinitesimally minuscule vernacular precipitates a consummate assuredly askance of your impoverished cognitive capacity furthermore a prosopoleptic condemnation of an individuals likability is a rather ludicropathetic appellation.
And you use big words like this:
Endless Mike:” that's nothing but speculation based on nothing more than unfounded extrapolation, not actual quantifiable feats”
And the maths of G plex has good points, only you and some other denied them.
By the way, using big words does not make you right, or likeable.
Originally posted by Creshosk... I really don't think that was necessary at all, it's obvious english isn't his best language ridiculing one for their faults doesn't really get you anywhere
Your infinitesimally minuscule vernacular precipitates a consummate assuredly askance of your impoverished cognitive capacity furthermore a prosopoleptic condemnation of an individuals likability is a rather ludicropathetic appellation.
Originally posted by DestinyGuy678It has nothing to do with English not being his primary language and everything to do with him being an idiot. His reasoning was flawed therefore I'm going to mock him for it.
... I really don't think that was necessary at all, it's obvious english isn't his best language ridiculing one for their faults doesn't really get you anywhere
