Superman vs Goku (Official Thread)

Originally posted by Endless Mike
He uses his super speed when he's fighting super fast opponents. Just because it isn't drawn with blurry afterimages and speed lines (and as Galvaclaw showed, sometimes it is) doesn't mean it's not fast. Show me one feat from any DBZ character that comes even close to Superman fighting Wonder Woman all around the world and to the sun and back in 1 minute and 54 seconds, or searching every building and area in a 200 - mile radius in seconds.

i know just like doomsday right?

but most of superman's fight, authors didn't stated or shown they were fighting at high speed plus humans can watch it just like lois lane.

all around the world? it involves pure physical power and as long as great distance is involved, it's still travel or flying speed.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Oh, and in case anyone has forgotten, forum rules:

[quote=digimark007]The "No PIS" Rule

PIS = Plot Induced Stupidity

At times, for the sake of the plot, characters that are immensely more powerful than their opponent will "job" to carry on the plot of the story, even though the characters powers and history would clearly show that they are more than capable of destroying their opponent. For this reason we have a No PIS Rule. This rule prohibits the use of such instances of PIS from being used as evidence in debates.

Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.

comparing and discussing that superman's flying speed and combat speed are not at the same speed is not against no PIS rule.

if i use superman's flying speed against his flying speed, that's against no PIS rule.

Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Superman changed his symbol to black for while to morns the millions who died during Our worlds at war. I grabbed those pages from the first post of a 70 page respect thread I could provide countless others. Since Infinite crisis Superman has used super human speed to fight many of his foes. Subjekt 17, Arion, Triumph and many others. I know, I have every issue since then

He fought three people during Infinite crisis. All three of them has Superspeed even Mongul. One of them has even speed blitzed multiple flashes at the same time. Earth 2 Superman is fast enough to casually drop Zoom. Zoom is vastly faster than Goku.

Superman has never lost a fight to someone fast because he didn't use superspeed. If someone uses it he strikes back faster and harder.

Now you tell me something. Superman is stronger compared to Goku than Goku is to you. Able to lift near infinite weight versus Goku who can at most lift a few thousand tons. Where does Goku's dubious skill come to play? Can a martial artist beat up a tank?

he didn't use agility. remember black rock, mongul, e2 supes etc.

did you really read infinite crisis and it's crossovers?

the scans you posted before, those were 13-yrs old goku's combat speed. did you really read dragon ball.

again you didn't answer my question:

how rare is that? 1 in a 100000000

another question:

prove me that superman's rarely combat speed is as fast as his flying speed.

Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Reflexes is how fast someone can react. Superman can perform complex maneuvers that couldn't be performed by someone who could think 1000 times the speed of an average person.

Fine, I'm loathe to do this because your deranged idea no american comic character has super speed, but here:

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/4530/08222005115613am7bx.jpg
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/679/08222005124311pm3un.jpg
http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/9203/pics0017bn.jpg
http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/9558/supermanandmongul8pr.jpg
http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/1971/supermanfast3ar.jpg

There super fast combat. After images, speed lines, phasing through attacks. All super fast combat techniques.

But I'm not sure why I'm having to do this. Haven't you seen smallville? Where every time clark uses his superspeed time grinds to a halt while clark moves normally.

these are goku's combat speed in his teen, unless you can prove me that superman's combat speed equals his travel speed.

Originally posted by nij-ayias
again you didn't answer my question:

how rare is that? 1 in a 100000000

another question:

prove me that superman's rarely combat speed is as fast as his flying speed.

Quit breaking the rules, sock.

Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Quit breaking the rules, sock.

i'm not breaking the rule,

i'm comparing a skill that is regularly use against a skill that is
rarely use.

i'm comparing supes' agility to his speed.

i'm comparing supes' combat speed to his travel speed.

if i'm comparing both supes' flying speed then i'm already breaking the rules

excuse me, i'm not trying to offend or anything but if i'm breaking the rule, then NO PIS Rule hides the character's limitations or i think it is already. in my opinion,
because most characters have limitations.

.

Goku wins this

No he doesn't.

Originally posted by Sarutobi700
Goku wins this

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
No he doesn't.

No Bias Claims
"Batman can beat Thor because he's cooler!" That's an example of how not to debate. We would like to see the rationale behind any claims that one character can beat the other rather than a claim based on popularity and subjective bias.
Also, we insist that all claims be backed up by evidence from canon sources. If you claim that Spiderman is stronger than Superman, then you have to prove it.

Anyone who claims Spiderman is stronger than Superman is an idiot. Let's look at their respective strength level. Goku in base is prolly class 20-30. Apparently, this is multiplied by 50 for each SSJ transformation. That means at SSJ3 he would be able to lift 2,500,000-3,750,000(Though MO that sounds fvckin ridiculous). Superman can push planets. Supes has the clear strength advantage.

Travel speed: Supes, I don't even need a reason.

Combat speed: Supes has fought fights frm one side of the planet to the other in seconds, and to the sun and back in less than two minutes I believe, I don't have the scans unfortunately.

Durability: Lol...Superman....

Fighting skill: Goku.

Supes wins IMO.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Anyone who claims Spiderman is stronger than Superman is an idiot. Let's look at their respective strength level. Goku in base is prolly class 20-30. Apparently, this is multiplied by 50 for each SSJ transformation. That means at SSJ3 he would be able to lift 2,500,000-3,750,000(Though MO that sounds fvckin ridiculous). Superman can push planets. Supes has the clear strength advantage.

it's ridiculous for because it took supes an all-star version of him to become 3x stronger.

lifting has nothing to do with ki or power levels because lifting limits the amount of their ki or power level.

dbz is about ki and power level not the class something..........

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Travel speed: Supes, I don't even need a reason.

Combat speed: Supes has fought fights frm one side of the planet to the other in seconds, and to the sun and back in less than two minutes I believe, I don't have the scans unfortunately.

Durability: Lol...Superman....

Fighting skill: Goku.

Supes wins IMO.

black rock hurts superman with a non-planet buster attack.

one side of the planet to other in seconds = involved long distance, therefore flying or travel speed.

to the sun and back in less than 2 minutes = involved long distance, therefore flying or travel speed.

prove me that supes' agility and reflexes equals his flying speed.

goku is more experience in fast-pace fight than supes, why?

how rare did supes fight in fast-pace?

this is not against NO PIS Rule because it's about regularly used skill and rarely used skills.

comics is what important most not the scans.

Originally posted by nij-ayias
it's ridiculous for because it took supes an all-star version of him to become 3x stronger.

black rock hurts superman with a non-planet buster attack.

one side of the planet to other in seconds = involved long distance, therefore flying or travel speed.

to the sun and back in less than 2 minutes = involved long distance, therefore flying or travel speed.

prove me that supes' agility and reflexes equals his flying speed.

goku is more experience in fast-pace fight than supes, why?

how rare did supes fight in fast-pace?

this is not against NO PIS Rule because it's about regularly used skill and rarely used skills.

comics is what important most not the scans.

Gokou gets hurt with non-planet busting attacks also. You're point? Gokou hasn't been shown to take true planet busting attacks either while Superman has taken some.

Fighting while flying at faster than light speeds. It isn't just travel speed. The fact that Superman can react and punch while flying faster than light should give you the hint that he's not slow. Heck him flying and fighting proves his reflexes are on par with his speed.

Superman fights at high speeds when he has to. He's done it enough times. He reacted at high speeds even more times than he has really fought. The fact that he doesn't crash through everything proves his reaction time.

Originally posted by Kento
Why are you talking about All-Star Superman?

Gokou gets hurt with non-planet busting attacks also. You're point? Gokou hasn't been shown to take true planet busting attacks either while Superman has taken some.

your wrong because goku gets hurt with a KI input that is powerful than many solar system busting attacks. don't get confused, read dragon ball manga.

do you even know what "KI" is?

Originally posted by Kento
Fighting while flying at faster than light speeds. It isn't just travel speed. The fact that Superman can react and punch while flying faster than light should give you the hint that he's not slow. Heck him flying and fighting proves his reflexes are on par with his speed.

it's still flying and long distance is still involved. dont make any assumptions. prove me that his reflexes is just as fast as his flying speed.

Originally posted by Kento
Superman fights at high speeds when he has to. He's done it enough times. He reacted at high speeds even more times than he has really fought. The fact that he doesn't crash through everything proves his reaction time.

when he has to?

how rare is that? 1 in a 10000000000000000

if that is rare, then he lacks experience than goku who regularly using agility and reflexes or combat speed.

superman rarely used agility and reflexes.

goku regularly used agility and reflexes

i'm not an hardcore fan of both parties but it is clear that superman wins.

maybe it should have be Gogeta v.s Superman

Originally posted by Shalimar_fox
i'm not an hardcore fan of both parties but it is clear that superman wins.

maybe it should have be Gogeta v.s Superman

do you know what KI is?

anyway,

No Bias Claims

"Batman can beat Thor because he's cooler!" That's an example of how not to debate. We would like to see the rationale behind any claims that one character can beat the other rather than a claim based on popularity and subjective bias.
Also, we insist that all claims be backed up by evidence from canon sources. If you claim that Spiderman is stronger than Superman, then you have to prove it.

Originally posted by nij-ayias
your wrong because goku gets hurt with a KI input that is powerful than many solar system busting attacks. don't get confused, read dragon ball manga.

do you even know what "KI" is?

it's still flying and long distance is still involved. dont make any assumptions. prove me that his reflexes is just as fast as his flying speed.

when he has to?

how rare is that? 1 in a 10000000000000000

if that is rare, then he lacks experience than goku who regularly using agility and reflexes or combat speed.

superman rarely used agility and reflexes.

goku regularly used agility and reflexes

Then I guess Gokou doesn't fight at high speeds either because he's flying around the place...Hmm oh well. Seems like you can't fly and fight or it's not high speed. He's reacting, throwing punches, and all that yet it's just travel speed huh?

Originally posted by Kento
Gokou gets hurt with Ki blasts that don't even come close to destroying the planet. Every blast that is suppose to be planet destroying has been blocked. And yea I know what Ki is....what's you're point?

if you know all about "KI", why you didn't know about ki level or power level that it doesn't matter how powerful the damage in the surrounding is but it's level.

Originally posted by Kento
Then I guess Gokou doesn't fight at high speeds either because he's flying around the place...Hmm oh well. Seems like you can't fly and fight or it's not high speed. He's reacting, throwing punches, and all that yet it's just travel speed huh?

flying around the place is flying not fighting.

as long as long distance is involved it's still travel not reflexes or agility.

about superman's reacting and throwing punches while flying.

how fast is that throwing punches you were saying?

prove me by scan or author's statement because all of you didn't prove me that he's reflexes is as fast as his flying speed.

you didn't answer my question:

how rare is that superman's agility and reflexes in fighting? 1 in a 10000000000000000000000

Originally posted by nij-ayias
do you know what KI is?

anyway,

No Bias Claims

"Batman can beat Thor because he's cooler!" That's an example of how not to debate. We would like to see the rationale behind any claims that one character can beat the other rather than a claim based on popularity and subjective bias.
Also, we insist that all claims be backed up by evidence from canon sources. If you claim that Spiderman is stronger than Superman, then you have to prove it.

Originally posted by Shalimar_fox
Yes i know what ki is.

in ki control/manipulation, it doesn't matter how much the effects in the sorrounding would be.

dragon ball manga is not DC comics, so stop saying that because the attack didn't destroy a planet, it's not as strong or stronger than a planet buster.

Originally posted by nij-ayias
if you know all about "KI", why you didn't know about ki level or power level that it doesn't matter how powerful the damage in the surrounding is but it's level.

flying around the place is flying not fighting.

as long as long distance is involved it's still travel not reflexes or agility.

about superman's reacting and throwing punches while flying.

how fast is that throwing punches you were saying?

prove me by scan or author's statement because all of you didn't prove me that he's reflexes is as fast as his flying speed.

you didn't answer my question:

how rare is that superman's agility and reflexes in fighting? 1 in a 10000000000000000000000

To bad people can fight and fly and the same time huh? Sorta like ya know Gokou and the people he fights. What does it matter how far somebody goes? Gokou moves backwards while he's fighting. The fact that they are fighting from Earth to the Sun I'd say pretty fast punches. Superman has proven plenty of times without fighting he's got the reflexes to do stuff at high speeds and react to stuff at light speed. It doesn't matter how many times Superman fights like that when he shows plenty of times he can react while moving that fast be it fighting or something else.

Originally posted by Kento
Uh yea it doesn't matter how much damage to the area when it hits the ground. Gokou's also hurt by punches that aren't even close to Superman's in power.

all dragon ball's attacks have KI input,

dragon ball characters are not fighting with pure physical strength.

they always involve ki in everyway except lifting or pure physical strength, because lifting limits the amount of their ki

Originally posted by Kento
To bad people can fight and fly and the same time huh? Sorta like ya know Gokou and the people he fights. What does it matter how far somebody goes? Gokou moves backwards while he's fighting. The fact that they are fighting from Earth to the Sun I'd say pretty fast punches. Superman has proven plenty of times without fighting he's got the reflexes to do stuff at high speeds and react to stuff at light speed. It doesn't matter how many times Superman fights like that when he shows plenty of times he can react while moving that fast be it fighting or something else.

stop assuming, the author and writer of superman didn't point out that superman is using reflexes during that earth to sun fight.

earth to sun fight is a combination of pure physical power and travel speed not agility and reflexes.

yes, he can react when he's flying but you didn't prove it equals when fighting.

it does matter how many times because it falls under the category of experience.

superman lacks experience of combat speed which involves agility and reflexes. slower opponents could land a blow to superman.

i didn't say superman has no experience at all but goku has more experience in agility and reflexes.

how rare is that superman's agility and reflexes when fighting? 1 in a 1000000000000