Superman vs Goku (Official Thread)

Originally posted by ankur29
a word of notice first ,endless mike... you were first to ultilise an insulting tone & i have never doubted you to be anything less than a curtious poster.

If you think that's insulting, you must have led a very sheltered life.

Anyway, I'm just annoyed at having to debunk the same arguments over and over again, when the people who make them have obviously done no research whatsoever. Naturally you can see how exasperating that can be, right?

Now,are you ignorant ? Have bias towards superman and therefore dimiss any logic that contradicts youe opinion or do you hate dbz alltogether ?

Appeal to Motive fallacy.

Approaching this logically : How many times more powerful would you say freiza was compared to roshi? power-levelswise frieza was over a million wasn't he and that was still a fractoion of his power ! ( i will find the evidence if you are unaware of this and wish to see it , i read it somewhere and my memory of it was confirmed by the extract on dragonball on wiki ) whereas roshi was only around 200 , these were officail power levels form Akira himself i belive , akira's power levels were discontinued after freiza saga!

Yes, but you're missing the point: Power levels don't mean anything, other than if one DBZ character has a higher PL than another one, that character is more powerful. They don't scale in any logically predictive fashion.

now i hope you can do the math and work out the factor of how many times more powerful freiza was than roshi ..i intentionally said cell was a 1000 times as powerful as roshi but you ignorantly questioned this without any logic . also freiza was no way as strong as cell as super saiyan trunks was enough to beat not acended.

How is it "ignorant" to question a figure that you just made up, and was not stated anywhere?

if ssj2 is not dozen of times weaker than ssj3 why does goku use ssj3 and not ssj2?

Because SSJ3 is stronger? That doesn't mean it's dozens of times stronger. Again, you just made that up.

for future reference please avoid demeaning insults as you will be paid back in full ...... btw sorry if i sound demeaning towards you 😛

I have a very low tolerance for stupid arguments, especially ones I've refuted many times already.

wasn't fat buu's power increasing also? i know this from anime not sure about manga?

I don't remember that ever being stated. SSJ2 Vegeta was able to give him a good fight.

I know that Supes would still take this regardless, my argument was never agaisnt that but rather the ignorance from others who claim DBZ powerlevels do not scale linearly.

Burden of proof is on you to prove they do.

At best, Goku' max would make him above a 100 class for strength, a planet buster and possibly mid herald. He is certainly faster then mach 3 and is possibly 1/4 of light speed.

Agree with everything except the 0.25c claim. I'd like to see some evidence to support that.

....wow ....ok I said "wouldnt you agree to the assumption than supermans alser vision is greater than kryptos, even though that has never been stated on english"...maybe you do need a little english help, my question is saying would yo uagree to THE (not yours) assumption

Let me see if I can explain this to you again: You think I stated that Goku's strongest kamehameha is not any stronger than Master Roshi's kamehameha. You're asking me this question to present an analogy. The problem is, I never said that. I said that we don't know how much stronger Goku's Kamehameha is than Roshi's. Not that it isn't stronger.

And you were asking me that since you were assuming I made a claim that I never did. I'm not answering a question that you asked based on false premises.

...ok please tell me where I said you made the assumption

Superman is the best.

Originally posted by DestinyGuy678
...ok please tell me where I said you made the assumption

Originally posted by you
I've been to the other thread they posted proof that at the least the power level fro mssj1 to sjj2 increases about 50 times cant say I looked at it that much though, I would also think it obvoius that gokus kamehameha stronger than roshis especially since only time roshi was a problem to gok uwas as a child

Its pointless to continue the debate, Supes wins end of story. DBZ powerlevels scale linearly as well, so just drop it.

Its pretty obvious Goku wins this. If you show me Supes raising mountains with his punches and causes rocks to break with missed punches without touching the rocks, Supes is a SS2's equall

Originally posted by Sarutobi700
Its pretty obvious Goku wins this. If you show me Supes raising mountains with his punches and causes rocks to break with missed punches without touching the rocks, Supes is a SS2's equall

If you show me Super Saiya-jin 4 Goku lifting trillions of tons and moving at hundreds of times C, he'd be equal to a 'holding back' Superman.

🙂.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
[quote=you]I've been to the other thread they posted proof that at the least the power level fro mssj1 to sjj2 increases about 50 times cant say I looked at it that much though, I would also think it obvoius that gokus kamehameha stronger than roshis especially since only time roshi was a problem to gok uwas as a child

Originally posted by Sarutobi700
Its pretty obvious Goku wins this. If you show me Supes raising mountains with his punches and causes rocks to break with missed punches without touching the rocks, Supes is a SS2's equall

Guys, I'm going to be busy with many personal matters in the next week or so, so please hold down the fort here for me while I' m gone.

Also ignore Sarutobi, he's a troll.

Also DBZ power levels do NOT scale linearly unless you can prove it (which will be very difficult considering all the evidence that they don't)

There is no debating here any more its just dbz fans failing to prove Goku is any where near Superman in terms of power. The simple solution is to compare both top end feats but in doing so would expose how horribly Goku would die so instead people try and hype his power constantly arguing about Goku and just completley ignoring every thing about Superman, this may as well be the official Goku thread.

I agree that the debate is over, Supes wins and I personally think any argument aaisnt it is just a pure waste of time. Even though the powerlevels scale linearly we don't know how much more poweful Goku would have become, the series ended so his power is left at SSJ3.

Now going back to what I said earliar, at Gokues max he is above 100 class in stength, a planet buster and is possibly 1/4 of light speed(he is fasdter then the speed of sound by a large margin).

Originally posted by The Great Galen
I agree that the debate is over, Supes wins and I personally think any argument aaisnt it is just a pure waste of time. Even though the powerlevels scale linearly we don't know how much more poweful Goku would have become, the series ended so his power is left at SSJ3.

Now going back to what I said earliar, at Gokues max he is above 100 class in stength, a planet buster and is possibly 1/4 of light speed(he is fasdter then the speed of sound by a large margin).

According to some quick and dirty calculations, the best quantifiable speed feat in the entire series - that is Gotenks travelling around the Earth several times - depicts him moving at between 198,481.425 and 5,755,961.313 mps(approximately, of course). The speed of light is 299,792,458 mps.

Meaning one of the most powerful characters in Dragonball Z is shown going at one fifty-first the speed of light, at best! At worst, one one thousand, five hundred tenth the speed of light.

Now, you only have to do two things. One - decide how much the speed difference between Super Saiya-jin and Super Saiya-jin 3 is - considering that most fans would put Gotenks and Goku on a comparable level with one another - and consider where Gotenks' feat ranked; did he perform it in a single minute, or twenty nine?

Then, voila, you'll have a fairly good idea of SSJ3 Goku's speed.

SSJ3 Goku is considerably more powerful then SSJ Gotenks, I dont think hes light speed but hes faster then mach 3 by a wide enough margin and his battle speed/moving speed is quick enough to eppear invisable. He can literally appear to materialize instantly under his own speed, so again not saying he would win just saying he isnt as slow as some folks claim he is.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
Its pointless to continue the debate, Supes wins end of story. DBZ powerlevels scale linearly as well, so just drop it.

I said this in my first post, Superman have more feats, but he is not a clear winner, because the tactic of Superman fans in debating here is understimate the lineal increase after Goku goes SSJ, of course like some said, we dragon ball fans can not prove what Toriyama never wroted, so easy to say for Superman soporters that any increase from SSJ 1 to 2 is meaningless, (As far i understand here is the word meaningless means is not valid to asume more increase, therefore this is a tactic of understimation)

The calculation of the speed of Gotenks is also a guess, the original translation is that he circle the planet Dozens times and took a Nap, Superman soporters said that it took 29 minutes to do that, but is not any certain of that, it can be said that it took Piccolo 29 minutes to find Gotenks, but not that it took Gotenks go around 29 minutes, he said took a nap as he was waiting for Piccolo to find him.

The interview of Toriyama was claim as real by MFG forum, in that Toriyama claim that Saiyans go speed of life, the interview was made in Japanese, now I did not made the tranlation and they in that forum claim is real, not me.

This are the powerlevels that many Dragon ball Soporters use to make calculation, and that Superman soporters don´t accept that is just the same pattern after.

Farmer - 5 (Volume 17 / 1, page 10: "Power level... only 5. What a planet!"😉

Piccolo - 322 (Volume 17 / 1, page 15: "Power 322."😉

Son Goku - 334 (Volume 17 / 1, page 68: "Powers 322 and 334! One has Kakarrot's power... exactly.)

Son Gohan, distressed - 710 (Volume 17 / 1, page 66: "Power 710!! And close!! Where?! That... infant?!"😉

Raditz - Over 1,200 (Volume 18 / 2, page 148: "It's impossible!! The cultivars' power is over 1200...! Equal to Raditz, every one of them...!)

Son Goku, weighted clothes removed - 416 (Volume 17 / 1, page 73: "And Kakarrot... up to 416...!"😉

Piccolo, weighted clothes removed - 408 (Volume 17 / 1, page 72: "What!? His power... jumping to 408"!)

Son Goku, preparing the "Kamehameha" - 924 (and rising) (Volume 17 /1 , page 97: "It can't be!!! His power... up to 924!!! And increasing!!"😉

Piccolo, using the "Light of Death" - 1,330 (Volume 17 / 1, page 104: "Power... 1330... !!!! And all focused in his finger-tips...?!!!"😉

Son Gohan, enraged - 1,307 (Volume 17 / 1, Page 123: "Power... Level... 1307... ?!"😉

Son Gohan, normal - 1 (Volume 17 / 1, page 127: "Your power level... it's dropped to 1!"😉

Kame-Sen'nin - 139 (Volume 18 /2, page 66: "Let's see... 139...... !"😉

Kuririn - 206 (Volume 18 / 2, page 67: "It's 206!!"😉

Yamcha - 177 (Volume 18 / 2, page 67: "A 177... over there...... I'm guessing Yamcha... !!"😉

Tenshinhan - 250 (Volume 18 / 2, page 67: "There's a 250..." "It's Tenshinhan!!!"😉

Piccolo (weights) - 329 (Volume 18 / 2, Page 68: "And....... A........ 329..... ?!!" "It's got to be Piccolo..."😉

Cultivar(s) / Saibamen - Over 1,200 (Volume 18 / 2, Page 148: "It's impossible...! The Cultivars' power is over 1200...! Equal to Raditz, every one of them...!"😉

Piccolo, Kuririn, and Son Gohan - 1,220, 1,083, 981 (Not necessarily in order) (Volume 18 / 2, page 137: "981... 1220... 1083"😉

Son Gohan, enraged & firing a "Masenko" - 2,800 (Volume 3 / 19, page 98: "Power 2800... !!"😉

Son Goku, suppressed – 5,000 (Volume 19 / 3, page 81: "With a power level... of 5000!!"😉

Son Goku, full power (base) – Over 8,000 (Volume 19 / 3, page 116: "Over... 8000..."😉

Vegeta, full power - "barely 18,000" (Volume 21 / 5, page 125: "Vegeta could barely get up to 18,000!"😉
Son Goku, performing the ”Kaio-ken” times three – 21,000 (and rising) (Volume 20 / 4, page 25: "21,000... !!" [scouter breaks])

Kuririn & Gohan - "About 1,500" (Volume 21 / 5, page 119: "Their powers were both about 1500."😉

Vegeta, full power – 24,000 (Volume 21 / 5, page 124: "It can't be 24,000!!!"😉

Kiwi – Around 18,000 (Volume 21 / 5, page 122: "Y-your power level...is supposed to be the same as mine...!!"😉

Namekian Warriors, supressed – 1,000 (Volume 22 / 6, page 12: "All three rate at approximately 1000."😉

Namekian Warriors, full power - 3,000 (Volume 22 / 6, page 17: "I...I don't understand! They've all increased to 3000!"😉

Kuririn & Gohan – "Over 10,000" (Volume 23 / 7, page 143: "Those squirts measured over 10,000!"😉

Son Goku, supressed – 5,000 (Volume 24 / 8, page 48: "He's a lowly 5000!"😉

Ginyu, stated full power – 120,000 (Volume 24 / 8, page 124: "The Captain's top strength is 120,000..."😉

Son Goku – "About 85,000" (Proven to be 90,000, based on "Kaio-ken" reading) (Volume 24 / 8, page 121: "I already figured you out for about 85,000." Volume 24 / 8, page 121: "90,000... ?!"😉

Son Goku, performing the ”Kaio-ken” – 180,000 (Volume 24 / 8, page 123: "180,000?!"😉

Nail, full power – 42,000 (Volume 24 / 8, page 140: "It jumped to 42,000?!"😉

Freeza, full power – 530,000 (Volume 24 / 8, page 140: "You see, sir, it's... 530,000."😉

Ginyu, in Goku's body – 23,000 (Volume 24 / 8, page 178: "23,000..."😉

Freeza, 2nd stage - Over 1,000,000 (Volume 25 / 9, page 114: "If any instrument could read my strength... it would surpass a million..."😉

Trunks, suppressed - 5 (Volume 28 / 12, page 81: "Battle strength only 5...?"😉

Originally posted by Galvaclaw
This is correct however your understanding of the figures is not. It Takes more energy to destroy the Earth than the sun in these equations because ground zero is the sun. To reach the Earth the blast would have had to travel 8 light minutes loosing much of its energy due to the inverse square law.

You'll notice in the raw energy section the sun has a magnitude of billion times greater than the Earth.

Hence why in these equations it takes more energy to destroy than Pluto than Earth despite pluto being a fraction of Earths mas and size.

This was my favorite bit and the most incorrect. The sun has 332,946 times the mass of the Earth. Look it up on wikipedia for gods sake.

A non canon Dvd based of an era where Superman was exponentially weaker than he is now counts? Thats news to me.

If you check the list of the explosions and what i said, you will find out that what i am saying and that list prove is that the center of Earth explosion is greater than the Center of the Sun explosion, and the Kid Buu attack has that kind of power, as you will recognize the kid Buu attack as a clean explosion in vaporizing the Earth, so my argument was that Goku SSJ 3 can generate that kind of force in his attacks, i did this beacause Superman Soporters allways ask for prove of the power of the Kamehame ha.

I know the sun has more mass, i writed wrong, I mean to said the elements and the mass of the Earth produce a bigger explosion than the sun

And for the Lois and Olsen reporting Doomsday vs Superman and Lex luthor Watching Superman vs Doomsday Rex in the screen and then then trap then by closing the walls and send them Kriptonate radiation, is all in the comics, check you coleccion please.

Originally posted by Magee
There is no debating here any more its just dbz fans failing to prove Goku is any where near Superman in terms of power. The simple solution is to compare both top end feats but in doing so would expose how horribly Goku would die so instead people try and hype his power constantly arguing about Goku and just completley ignoring every thing about Superman, this may as well be the official Goku thread.

The maximum feat of Goku power is his Kamehame ha power, the tactic of Superman soporters is understimate this attack.

The maximum feat of speed of Goku is his Instant Transmission, that allow him to go to other dimensions and planets like Namek that are in other Solar sistems or Galaxies, (Goku when Found Dende)
And move around the same area of combat too (Goku when rescue Piccolo and Tien from Cell Second Form)
Superman soporter tactics is that he need time to concentrade and is wrong.

Goku don´t have feats of strenght as same like Superman and that make Superman a winner in this area, but Superman soporters dont wanna listen or see calculations base in powerlevels, so to make Goku weak, Goku feats of strenght are when he lift a giant building size Piccolo in DB and lifting 8 tons without glowing energy or powering up in his training at normal base form.

Durability Goku resist Kid Buu blast, but Superman soporters minimize Kid Buu Attack.

Ok, there you go, more or less, is understimation of Superman soporters and power levels are meaningless argument and overstimation of the Goku soporters as Galaxy destroyer. an Endless debate, you can close it now, there is no a clear winner like you say tought 😱

Originally posted by Vvendeta
The maximum feat of Goku power is his Kamehame ha power, the tactic of Superman soporters is understimate this attack.

The maximum feat of speed of Goku is his Instant Transmission, that allow him to go to other dimensions and planets like Namek that are in other Solar sistems or Galaxies, (Goku when Found Dende)
And move around the same area of combat too (Goku when rescue Piccolo and Tien from Cell Second Form)
Superman soporter tactics is that he need time to concentrade and is wrong.

Goku don´t have feats of strenght as same like Superman and that make Superman a winner in this area, but Superman soporters dont wanna listen or see calculations base in powerlevels, so to make Goku weak, Goku feats of strenght are when he lift a giant building size Piccolo in DB and lifting 8 tons without glowing energy or powering up in his training at normal base form.

Durability Goku resist Kid Buu blast, but Superman soporters minimize Kid Buu Attack.

Ok, there you go, more or less, is understimation of Superman soporters and power levels are meaningless argument and overstimation of the Goku soporters as Galaxy destroyer. an Endless debate, you can close it now, there is no a clear winner like you say tought 😱

IT isn't battle speed...winning in a race isn't going to help in a fight, and even with IT he needs a ki source to use. Gokou needs time to lock onto ki sources. Bigger and closer the source the easier but Superman would have a small ki, and Gokou is still slower and the noise IT makes when he appears and disappears is all Superman needs with his super hearing.

Gokou was glowing and everything when he was being pulled to Earth by 40 tons besides that everything is speculation since it's never shown that strength nor speed scale linearly with every transformation. Did he lift Piccolo straight up or what?

Kid Buu's attack that hit Gokou didn't even damage the planet much at all, he ran from the one that destroyed Earth, and he had to IT out of the way from another one.

There is a clear winner. Superman has higher feats than anybody in DBZ, he has faster feats than anybody in DBZ, stronger, and better durability also.

Originally posted by Vvendeta
I said this in my first post, Superman have more feats, but he is not a clear winner, because the tactic of Superman fans in debating here is understimate the lineal increase after Goku goes SSJ, of course like some said, we dragon ball fans can not prove what Toriyama never wroted, so easy to say for Superman soporters that any increase from SSJ 1 to 2 is meaningless, (As far i understand here is the word meaningless means is not valid to asume more increase, therefore this is a tactic of understimation)

The calculation of the speed of Gotenks is also a guess, the original translation is that he circle the planet Dozens times and took a Nap, Superman soporters said that it took 29 minutes to do that, but is not any certain of that, it can be said that it took Piccolo 29 minutes to find Gotenks, but not that it took Gotenks go around 29 minutes, he said took a nap as he was waiting for Piccolo to find him.

The interview of Toriyama was claim as real by MFG forum, in that Toriyama claim that Saiyans go speed of life, the interview was made in Japanese, now I did not made the tranlation and they in that forum claim is real, not me.

And on panel Gotenks had what five or something rings around Earth before landing and wasn't even shown to nap. Then there is the fact that Gotenks does nothing but brag..he even went to Fat Buu as soon as he was first fused thinking he was so powerful and was beat nearly instantly. Then in the spirit and time room just to make Piccolo sweat he acted like he was spent. Trunks after Gohan shows up saying Gohan is probably almost as strong as Gotenks....Trunks makes up most of Gotenks personality and he's nearly as cocky as his father. Then is takes a minute to fly to Fat Buu's house. He's not exactly light speed. The napping and flying around Earth a dozen times can't really be proven or disproven but the fact that it takes a minute to get to Buu, and Gotenks does nothing but brag and is cocky isn't in his favor of being light speed. Though that's only ssj and ssj3 speed is unknown for him nor Gokou.

Originally posted by Vvendeta
If you check the list of the explosions and what i said, you will find out that what i am saying and that list prove is that the center of Earth explosion is greater than the Center of the Sun explosion, and the Kid Buu attack has that kind of power, as you will recognize the kid Buu attack as a clean explosion in vaporizing the Earth, so my argument was that Goku SSJ 3 can generate that kind of force in his attacks, i did this beacause Superman Soporters allways ask for prove of the power of the Kamehame ha.

I know the sun has more mass, i writed wrong, I mean to said the elements and the mass of the Earth produce a bigger explosion than the sun

And for the Lois and Olsen reporting Doomsday vs Superman and Lex luthor Watching Superman vs Doomsday Rex in the screen and then then trap then by closing the walls and send them Kriptonate radiation, is all in the comics, check you coleccion please.

And guess what..Superman doesn't always use his speed in battle, and Doomsday Rex is a shadow or the real Doomsday. Also Z fighters always use their speed and are seen more often than not.

We've already said that interview is fake. It's been proven fake on plenty of forums. The magazine it comes from doesn't exist. Even still light speed is slower than Superman.

hmmm...

gotenks said dozen times areound the world

dozen=12

Trunks supressed power is when he lowers his energy but he is still very strong as he took down Freeza's sqaudron at the power level of 5.