Ok, if make you happy i am a DBZ idiot fan who think that Goku lose only because lack of feats to prove his power, nothing else.
I know Mike that you think that calculations over SSJ power ups are pointless. I want to ask you 2 new question:
1.Do you think that from SSJ 1 to SSJ 2 and from SSJ2 to SSJ 3 there is a increase? yes or not?
2.- if Toriyama finish DB in the Freeza Saga:
Would that change your perception on the speed of Goku?
I ask you this because it seens that to prove your point in the speed of Goku superman soporters use mostly Cell saga and Buu Saga, were it seens that they would get slower than in the Freeza Saga. (I see those example mostly as plop holes or pis, many of them are comic relief) what is your opinion on that?
True, but some planets where destroyed, you see in flash backs, i herd somewhere that the kryptonians where at war now and again but it wasnt any where near the level as the saiyans, plus kryptonians only have powers under a yellow sun, saiyans have powers everywhere its who they are !!
They did rule most of the universe which seems a bit above saiyains.
Who was supes fighting who had powers under a red son ?? where they fighting undera red sun or yellow ??
General Zod II the russian one. It was under a red sun as Superman can maintain his powers for a time under one. He's also taken planet destroying blasts of red solar energy.
I read that the red sun dont take away Superman powers, only block his access to it, that explain why he is still capable of such feats under red sun, and why red sun beams does not affect him that much, Batman study this to find a way to neutralize superman and Batman told this to superman anyway, big diference with superman precrisis, when he lose his power completelly under red sun.
Superman has very, very mixed showings with regards to his weaknesses; those being Kryptonite, Red Sun radiation, and magic.
A tiny marble of Kryptonite can bring him to his knees, while in the next issue he bursts through a godzilla-sized construct made of the very same substance.
He can fight under a red sun and still rock the planet itself, or fly through a red sun and still have enough juice left to crash land on a planet and be relatively unharmed in one issue, take a red sun supernova to the face the next, and then be completely and instantaneously stripped of his powers by merely standing under a red sun.
Finally, he can shrug off the effects of magical gods, goddesses, and powerful sorcerers in one issue, and a week later be put down by Harry Potter.
With regards to his weaknesses, Superman is a VERY inconsistent character - past, present, and almost certainly for the foreseeable future.
However, last time I checked...Goku wasn't magical. He wasn't made of kryptonite. He most certainly does not spew out red sun radiation...
So why even bother discussing it? Back to the topic at hand;
Comic Superman stomps a mudhole in Goku.
Animated Superman gets one shotted.
For truth, SSJ2 Vegetto would make a more interesting opponent for Superman - but it would require a hell of a lot of speculation to even make the comparison.
The guy before me is using Superman under red sun can do this, and that, I answer to him, but i agree with you about the inconsistencies.
About Ki, is being called in many occasions, latent power, life energy by Gohan.
When Piccolo confront Cell about why absorbe worthless human, Cell respond: "I extract their life form as a source of energy"
I think that Ki is a very mistical kind of power, I am not saying is magical, but is not a mere electricity or bomb energy, is more mistical spiritual kind of energy, What do you think?
Originally posted by BradBalboa
Well in the situation of this fight both think everyone they love has been killed !! this is close! Remeber the last time somting liek this happened to Goku ?? krillin and piccolo being killed by frieza( althogh piccolo wasant actually dead) it pushed goku to super saiyan i think the same thing will happen hea, and goku will go super saiyan 5 !!Plus supegoes crazy in these situations, i say double K.O possible destruction of most of the galaxy
There's no such thing as SSJ5. You can't just make up new powers for a character in a vs. debate.
True, but some planets where destroyed, you see in flash backs
Post a manga scan, because I don't remember reading that at all.
herd somewhere that the kryptonians where at war now and again but it wasnt any where near the level as the saiyan
If you've only "heard" about it, then how can you make such a judgement?
plus kryptonians only have powers under a yellow sun, saiyans have powers everywhere its who they are !!
Considering this fight takes place under a yellow sun, I fail to see the relevance.
Who was supes fighting who had powers under a red son ?? where they fighting undera red sun or yellow ??
It was some weird Russian version of Zod, and it was under a red sun.
SSJ5 vs. superman prime would be amazing! (agai nassuming power levels scale linearly, which would make this fight a lot more interesting)
THERE. IS. NO. SUCH. THING. AS. SSJ5!
1.Do you think that from SSJ 1 to SSJ 2 and from SSJ2 to SSJ 3 there is a increase? yes or not?
Do you mean is the jump from SSJ2 to SSJ3 proportionally greater than from SSJ1 to SSJ2? There's nothing to suggest that. In fact, considering that SSJ2 Vegeta did okay against Fat Buu (who SSJ3 Goku doubted he could beat, and then said he would just barely be able to beat him), and SSJ2 Vegeta managed to hold out for a while against Kid Buu (who was stronger than SSJ3 Goku), I'd say it might even be less.
2.- if Toriyama finish DB in the Freeza Saga:
Would that change your perception on the speed of Goku?
Probably, there are a few quantifiable speed feats later on.
I ask you this because it seens that to prove your point in the speed of Goku superman soporters use mostly Cell saga and Buu Saga, were it seens that they would get slower than in the Freeza Saga. (I see those example mostly as plop holes or pis, many of them are comic relief) what is your opinion on that?
Generally we use the later sagas because pointing out slow speed earlier on would just be met by "He got way faster than that towards the end".
The Frieza saga is filled with just as many low speed situations, for example when the dragon was summoned Frieza could see it on the horizon, meaning he was no more than a few dozen kms away, yet Vegeta, Krillin, and Gohan had time to have an argument and conversation before he got there (and he was heading there at full speed, since he wanted to stop anyone else from making a wish).
I read that the red sun dont take away Superman powers, only block his access to it, that explain why he is still capable of such feats under red sun, and why red sun beams does not affect him that much, Batman study this to find a way to neutralize superman and Batman told this to superman anyway, big diference with superman precrisis, when he lose his power completelly under red sun.
In most situations his powers don't disappear completely under a red sun, they just get weaker and weaker until they're gone.
About Ki, is being called in many occasions, latent power, life energy by Gohan.When Piccolo confront Cell about why absorbe worthless human, Cell respond: "I extract their life form as a source of energy"
I think that Ki is a very mistical kind of power, I am not saying is magical, but is not a mere electricity or bomb energy, is more mistical spiritual kind of energy, What do you think?
Ki is not magic. This has been confirmed in the manga by Kaioshin and Gohan. It is spiritual energy, but that doesn't count as magic in the DCU.
Originally posted by Vvendeta
The guy before me is using Superman under red sun can do this, and that, I answer to him, but i agree with you about the inconsistencies.About Ki, is being called in many occasions, latent power, life energy by Gohan.
When Piccolo confront Cell about why absorbe worthless human, Cell respond: "I extract their life form as a source of energy"
I think that Ki is a very mistical kind of power, I am not saying is magical, but is not a mere electricity or bomb energy, is more mistical spiritual kind of energy, What do you think?
Ki, chi, or qi are just that. Ki.
It isn't magic.
People always bring up dbz filler like convos finishing while in flight or them taking episodes to fly somewhere as proof of lower speed but at the sametime ignore or flat out try to discredit statements or showings done that they don't regard as "cannon". Like the flashback of Buu destroying galaxies, the Kai's saying as much, vegeta blowing up a planet with a finger during the saiyan saga, gotenks and buu ripping holes in dimensions, etc.
There are too many fanboys using convienent "proof" as too why Supes wins this.
Originally posted by TheBadguy
People always bring up dbz filler like convos finishing while in flight or them taking episodes to fly somewhere as proof of lower speed
I don't know about anyone else, but all of my examples of low speed were directly from the manga.
but at the sametime ignore or flat out try to discredit statements or showings done that they don't regard as "cannon". Like the flashback of Buu destroying galaxies, the Kai's saying as much
Not only filler, but directly contradicted by the manga.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/DBZ/suckitphenomenol.gif
vegeta blowing up a planet with a finger during the saiyan saga
Filler
gotenks and buu ripping holes in dimensions, etc.
They just opened portals between dimensions.... Bleach characters can do that. It's not relevant in a fight.
There are too many fanboys using convienent "proof" as too why Supes wins this.
Too bad their arguments are backed by canon evidence and yours aren't.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
I don't know about anyone else, but all of my examples of low speed were directly from the manga.Not only filler, but directly contradicted by the manga.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/DBZ/suckitphenomenol.gif
Filler
They just opened portals between dimensions.... Bleach characters can do that. It's not relevant in a fight.
Too bad their arguments are backed by canon evidence and yours aren't.
Thanks for proving my point. Relax fanboy, I don't care who wins this fight and the already too many pages in this thread plus the thousands all over the internet prove it's not going to be decided anytime soon. The anime is canon to the anime, it's an adaption of the manga, its not the manga, if it doesn't contradict something already established in the anime you can't just throw out parts as not "canon" like it never happened.
