Originally posted by Endless MikeHe's saying that the more ki you cn put out the stronger, faster and more durable you are as if the ki boosts physical stats. which of course goes counter to the manga as a 40 ton hit or even a 400 ton hit can't destroy a planet even if you hit the core.
Yeah, you're going to have to work on rephrasing this, because currently it's not making much sense.
Yes, Is like real martial artist using the believe of ki in karate or other forms to make his bodyparts stronger, Toriyama apply the same concept. like when they show breaking woods with the head or puting a sword against their stomach.
When Vegeta ask Krillin to to wond him mortally so Dende could heal him and get a life dead power up, Vegeta put his ki to the minimum, is estated in the manga, so that is one proof.
When Goku confront Trunks, he charge his finger and stop the sword that Kill Freeza without problem.
When Nappa send his more powerful attack Goku said, I wont dodge that and just raise his ki, same did Tien against Tao pai pai.
He's saying that the more ki you cn put out the stronger, faster and more durable you are as if the ki boosts physical stats. which of course goes counter to the manga as a 40 ton hit or even a 400 ton hit can't destroy a planet even if you hit the core.
If you check the scan of the 8-40 tons you will see Goku is not glowing ki until he is SSJ (Wich after Cell he control easy) and not having problems at all.
If you think Goku can not destroy a planet without hitting the core, i respect your opinion, but i see understimation.
Now if your are saying the force of Goku punch have 400 tons and that make him not able to destroy the Earth, well sound reasonable, but still is understimation because you have not prove that 400 tons is his maximum power, when you really dont know, and is stated in the manga that 1 Kaioken double his phisical strength, so is safe for me to say that Kaioken x 20 increase 20 times his strenght, and SSJ1 in the Freeza saga is more than double of x20 kaioken.
Endless Mike
What? No. Did you even read it? In order for him to regenerate, that part of him has to still exist. He can't regenerate if only one cell, molecule, or atom of that cluster exists. The whole thing has to exist for him to regenerate. He even said that the whole thing was unharmed, and that's why he was able to regenerate.
In order for him to die, that part has to be totally destroyed, that is why Goku could not beat him, but Gohan has more power to do that.
If that Cluster isnt destroyed, my body can go on on regenerating, even if only microscopic pieces remain
Cell is saying that even if microscopic pieces of that cluster survive, he can go on in regenarating.
If he is not talking about that cluster, when he is saying that even a microscopic pieces remain he could go on in regenarating, then he could regenarate from every microscopic piece, that will create many Cells bodies; for me he is logically talking about the cluster surviving in pieces will allow him to regenarate, Because is from that cluster that he regenarate into one Body.
You could be right, but then is imposible to analize why Goku didnt not win when disintegrate Cell head, many just say plop hole, and maybe that is correct, but maybe is just that if atoms, cells of that cluster survive, that is why he regenarate, so is more logical to think that Cell have to be disintegrated in his Totality, and Only Gohan SSJ2 has the power to do it.
Endless Mike
So Cell and Gohan are stronger than an army. So is Superman. What's your point?
My point is that many, incluying you, downplay the ki blast attack, Cell as same like Hulk, or Superman, will Resist Army attacks without problem, But the power of the Blast of a SSJ2 Disintegrated Cell (according to you to a pieces invisible for the naked eye), so my point is to make you see how powerful the blast is, and considere that SuperCell(after regenaration) is even more durable-powerful than the one that wsa standing in front of the army, and that a blast attack of a ssJ3 Goku is not to be understimated.
Saying things like the blast only make craters is for me downplaying ki attacks.
There were some saying that the attack of Gohan only make a crater (wich it did, and also the way were the beam goes) but they ignore or not considered that in that feat/attack a being like Cell was destroy to the point that he could not regenarate again.
I even can say Freeza is durable enough to resist a human military attack, but due is not such feat in the manga, i only use what is in the manga so i dont get the classic answer that i have no prove, I think also that even Teenage Goku could resist a human army attack, but i only can prove it with Cell.
I am saying that the power DBZ from the point of Cell saga until the Buu Saga is high enough for Goku to be a good match for a Superman vs Goku.
I am saying that Goku is understimated in this forum.
I Know Superman is powerful, but i am saying it is an even battle, not giving a winner ´cause that depends of how the battle will go. and how DC and Birth Studio will put it.
According with the info of DC of Superman, attacks of high energy concetrade in one point will breake his forcefield aura, this is what DC said about it:
High energy radiations of a particular wavelength can also cause injury by overloading the field at a single point, hence the reason he(Superman) can be harmed by high energy weapons such as blasters, lasers and plasma weapons. Kinetic kill weapons with sufficient force can also overload the field at that point.
DC info of Sups here:
http://www.starnet-database.com/dbase_deo/profiles/superman/superman.html
And being Ki attacks sort of mistical, it have more chance to succes than a laser or radiation attack.
So a attack of Goku SSJ3 has more chance than Superman soporters think.
Oh, all of this is just my opinion.
Yeah. There's really no attack in DBZ from Goku or any one esle in that series that could hurt him. They'll probably surprise him, but they won't be able to actually cause him any type of real damage.
Superman has Goku beat in every physical stat, to think Goku can beat Supes or even consider them as equals, is only wishful thinking from the DBZ support.
Superman has taken GL blasts (which destroy planets easy), blasts from Eradicator, DS's OBs, the astro force and countless of other attacks that's not just conventional weapons; the DBZ characters energy attacks aren't any thing new to him.
And freeza died by Trunks with a steel sword, if a steel sword could kill freeza, I'm sure there's plenty of millitary weapons that could also kill them.
And stop bringing up sites about Superman from 15 years ago, he's stronger that now.
Originally posted by Vvendeta
Yes, Is like real martial artist using the believe of ki in karate or other forms to make his bodyparts stronger, Toriyama apply the same concept. like when they show breaking woods with the head or puting a sword against their stomach.When Vegeta ask Krillin to to wond him mortally so Dende could heal him and get a life dead power up, Vegeta put his ki to the minimum, is estated in the manga, so that is one proof.
When Goku confront Trunks, he charge his finger and stop the sword that Kill Freeza without problem.
When Nappa send his more powerful attack Goku said, I wont dodge that and just raise his ki, same did Tien against Tao pai pai.
If you check the scan of the 8-40 tons you will see Goku is not glowing ki until he is SSJ (Wich after Cell he control easy) and not having problems at all.
If you think Goku can not destroy a planet without hitting the core, i respect your opinion, but i see understimation.
Now if your are saying the force of Goku punch have 400 tons and that make him not able to destroy the Earth, well sound reasonable, but still is understimation because you have not prove that 400 tons is his maximum power, when you really dont know, and is stated in the manga that 1 Kaioken double his phisical strength, so is safe for me to say that Kaioken x 20 increase 20 times his strenght, and SSJ1 in the Freeza saga is more than double of x20 kaioken.
He can't even use Kaio-ken after becoming SSJ, so I don't see your point. As for his physical strength, you're using an appeal to ignorance fallacy (we've only seen him doing so much, so how do you know he can't do more?). The burden of proof is on you to prove he can do more.
As for using ki to enhance their strength and such, surely that's true, but the amount providing by this boost is generally not shown to be very great.
In order for him to die, that part has to be totally destroyed, that is why Goku could not beat him, but Gohan has more power to do that.Cell is saying that even if microscopic pieces of that cluster survive, he can go on in regenarating.
No, you're completely misinterpreting the scan. He said "if it isn't destroyed". Destroyed doesn't mean "every last piece of it down to the atomic level is totally erased" it means "broken apart, rendered incapable of functioning."
If he is not talking about that cluster, when he is saying that even a microscopic pieces remain he could go on in regenarating, then he could regenarate from every microscopic piece, that will create many Cells bodies; for me he is logically talking about the cluster surviving in pieces will allow him to regenarate, Because is from that cluster that he regenarate into one Body.
Read the scan again. He says, directly: "When I self - destructed, my core was unharmed".
Not "When I self - destructed, my core was blown into tiny little bits but there was one atom left so I could regenerate"
Do you know what unharmed means?
You could be right, but then is imposible to analize why Goku didnt not win when disintegrate Cell head, many just say plop hole, and maybe that is correct, but maybe is just that if atoms, cells of that cluster survive, that is why he regenarate, so is more logical to think that Cell have to be disintegrated in his Totality, and Only Gohan SSJ2 has the power to do it.
That doesn't make sense either. If the thing was in his head, then how would there be pieces of it in his legs, since he regenerated from his legs? It's a plot hole. Or we could say he might have another one of those "clusters" in his lower body - that certainly makes more sense than what you are saying.
My point is that many, incluying you, downplay the ki blast attack, Cell as same like Hulk, or Superman, will Resist Army attacks without problem, But the power of the Blast of a SSJ2 Disintegrated Cell (according to you to a pieces invisible for the naked eye), so my point is to make you see how powerful the blast is, and considere that SuperCell(after regenaration) is even more durable-powerful than the one that wsa standing in front of the army, and that a blast attack of a ssJ3 Goku is not to be understimated.Saying things like the blast only make craters is for me downplaying ki attacks.
Did I ever deny that a strong ki attack is greater than the combined attacks of that army? IIRC they had tanks, bazookas, helicopters, machineguns, etc. No nukes though, for some reason. Also I don't recall that army creating a crater with its attack as large as the one Gohan made.
But they're blasts does make craters, and less than that also. What are you trying to say? I think everyone agreed that the stronger the character is in powerlevel, the more effective his attacks will be to a chracter with a weaker powerlevel.
True. Durability works strangely in the DBU.
There were some saying that the attack of Gohan only make a crater (wich it did, and also the way were the beam goes) but they ignore or not considered that in that feat/attack a being like Cell was destroy to the point that he could not regenarate again.
By blowing up that thing inside his head.
I even can say Freeza is durable enough to resist a human military attack, but due is not such feat in the manga, i only use what is in the manga so i dont get the classic answer that i have no prove, I think also that even Teenage Goku could resist a human army attack, but i only can prove it with Cell.
Actually, the military fought Picollo Daimao and lost, so you're right on the money here.
I am saying that the power DBZ from the point of Cell saga until the Buu Saga is high enough for Goku to be a good match for a Superman vs Goku.
Maybe some version of Superman, but not the current comics one.
I am saying that Goku is understimated in this forum.I Know Superman is powerful, but i am saying it is an even battle, not giving a winner ´cause that depends of how the battle will go. and how DC and Birth Studio will put it.
No, you don't get it. This isn't a crossover - it's a debate. Anyone can win in a crossover, regardless of who is stronger. Did you read DC vs. Marvel? Wolverine beat Lobo, which was just stupid. In an actual debate based on their powers and abilities, Wolverine would have had no chance. Goku could win in a crossover, but this isn't one.
And being Ki attacks sort of mistical, it have more chance to succes than a laser or radiation attack.
Wrong. Ki is not magic (confirmed in the manga multiple times). Superman's weaknesses are only magic, Kryptonite, and red sun energy.
So a attack of Goku SSJ3 has more chance than Superman soporters think.Oh, all of this is just my opinion.
Those kinds of attacks that hurt him are things like punches from people who can move and smash planets, weapons from highly advanced civilizations (beyond any civs in the DBU), etc. Not to mention that site refers mostly to the early Post - Crisis Superman. I might as well say that Goku was hurt by bullets in the beginning of the Dragonball manga, so he can be hurt by them at the end, too (even though he obviosly can't).
Not to mention that Goku will have a hell of a time actually hitting him, especially with any of his more powerful attacks, since he would need to charge up for at least a few seconds first. Do you think Superman is just going to stand there and let Goku fire away over and over again without fighting back?
What makes you think he would even let him get to SSJ3, or SSJ1 for that matter?
whats all this nonsense about every small blast dbz characters being able to destroy a planet? if that were the case, then why did cell decide to blow himself up to destroy the earth? if every little blast can do it if its unfocused, than wouldn't have been easier for cell to just do a quick unfocused blast at the ground? yeah.
on a sidenote heres a sick fight betwen the two (made by someone who has aspirations to being a comic artist) although it obviously is closer than it shoulve been its still cool.
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp01-english-8506189
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp02-english-8506294
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp03-english-8506377
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp04-english-8506482
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp05-english-8506551
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp06-english-8506621
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp07-english-8526737
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp08-english-8526824
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp09-english-8526903
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp10-english-8526988
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp11-english-8527052
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp12-english-8527153
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp13-english-8527215
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp15-english-8527403
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp16-8527533
Originally posted by DestinyGuy678
on a sidenote heres a sick fight betwen the two (made by someone who has aspirations to being a comic artist) although it obviously is closer than it shoulve been its still cool.http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp01-english-8506189
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp02-english-8506294
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp03-english-8506377
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp04-english-8506482
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp05-english-8506551
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp06-english-8506621
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp07-english-8526737
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp08-english-8526824
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp09-english-8526903
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp10-english-8526988
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp11-english-8527052
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp12-english-8527153
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp13-english-8527215
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp15-english-8527403
http://mistermoster.deviantart.com/art/SvGp16-8527533
lol
awesome.
I've read that before, but there are so many things wrong with it I can barely begin to describe them.
1. Goku was completely OOC
2. He no longer uses the nyoi-bo (can't remember how to spell the Japanese name for his pole thing) as an adult
3. Superman wouldn't have any ki, or at most, a small amount of ki since his powers aren't based on it
4. Goku could not hurt Superman with a punch, especially not in base form
Otherwise, it's ok. The artist did a great job.
Agree with Creshock.
Still good art.
I agree with Mike too, Goku has to go SSJ2 or 3 to move superman, but not damage superman. only if he charge all his power in one fist as when he fought king piccolo.
Agre with the artist, a SSJ 1 will lose like that, Goku has even chance as SSJ3 dead body, Alive body eventually Goku will run out of power.
Goku could easy teleport or send ki blast meanwhile superman was taking him to espace.
Originally posted by dvampire
Yeah. There's really no attack in DBZ from Goku or any one esle in that series that could hurt him. They'll probably surprise him, but they won't be able to actually cause him any type of real damage.Superman has Goku beat in every physical stat, to think Goku can beat Supes or even consider them as equals, is only wishful thinking from the DBZ support.
Superman has taken GL blasts (which destroy planets easy), blasts from Eradicator, DS's OBs, the astro force and countless of other attacks that's not just conventional weapons; the DBZ characters energy attacks aren't any thing new to him.
And freeza died by Trunks with a steel sword, if a steel sword could kill freeza, I'm sure there's plenty of millitary weapons that could also kill them.
And stop bringing up sites about Superman from 15 years ago, he's stronger that now.
Ki is life force energy, non of those characters you mention have those attacks, and that does not mean is less or more powerful.
Freeza died beacuse he was caught off guard, and he did not power up his power(Durability, strenght, etc), Gohan say before that Freeza was in his minumum, i am lazy to put the scan, every moment of durability in DB is due the ki burst output, when Freeza die and when Goku die with Cell, non of them were powering up to their maximum, Ki relate to their durability.
That site is a valid information of superman, probably old yes but there is nothing wrong with it, all that it said there is true to the character, the page is from DC.
And is not wishfull thinking, i just dislike that Superman soporters in this forum seen the fight as easy for superman, i am only trying to prove Goku can be a good match. even if he lose here.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
He can't even use Kaio-ken after becoming SSJ, so I don't see your point. As for his physical strength, you're using an appeal to ignorance fallacy (we've only seen him doing so much, so how do you know he can't do more?). The burden of proof is on you to prove he can do more.As for using ki to enhance their strength and such, surely that's true, but the amount providing by this boost is generally not shown to be very great.
No, you're completely misinterpreting the scan. He said "if it isn't destroyed". Destroyed doesn't mean "every last piece of it down to the atomic level is totally erased" it means "broken apart, rendered incapable of functioning."
Read the scan again. He says, directly: "When I self - destructed, my core was [b]unharmed
".Not "When I self - destructed, my core was blown into tiny little bits but there was one atom left so I could regenerate"
Do you know what unharmed means?
That doesn't make sense either. If the thing was in his head, then how would there be pieces of it in his legs, since he regenerated from his legs? It's a plot hole. Or we could say he might have another one of those "clusters" in his lower body - that certainly makes more sense than what you are saying.
Did I ever deny that a strong ki attack is greater than the combined attacks of that army? IIRC they had tanks, bazookas, helicopters, machineguns, etc. No nukes though, for some reason. Also I don't recall that army creating a crater with its attack as large as the one Gohan made.
True. Durability works strangely in the DBU.
By blowing up that thing inside his head.
Actually, the military fought Picollo Daimao and lost, so you're right on the money here.
Maybe some version of Superman, but not the current comics one.
No, you don't get it. This isn't a crossover - it's a debate. Anyone can win in a crossover, regardless of who is stronger. Did you read DC vs. Marvel? Wolverine beat Lobo, which was just stupid. In an actual debate based on their powers and abilities, Wolverine would have had no chance. Goku could win in a crossover, but this isn't one.
Wrong. Ki is not magic (confirmed in the manga multiple times). Superman's weaknesses are only magic, Kryptonite, and red sun energy.
Those kinds of attacks that hurt him are things like punches from people who can move and smash planets, weapons from highly advanced civilizations (beyond any civs in the DBU), etc. Not to mention that site refers mostly to the early Post - Crisis Superman. I might as well say that Goku was hurt by bullets in the beginning of the Dragonball manga, so he can be hurt by them at the end, too (even though he obviosly can't).
Not to mention that Goku will have a hell of a time actually hitting him, especially with any of his more powerful attacks, since he would need to charge up for at least a few seconds first. Do you think Superman is just going to stand there and let Goku fire away over and over again without fighting back?
What makes you think he would even let him get to SSJ3, or SSJ1 for that matter? [/B]
Goku can use kai o ken, there is nothing state that he cant anymore, just supersaiyan is more easy and controled and higher form of powerup, after the room of spirit and time, Goku can be SSJ and not output any energy, plenty of scans can prove my point.
You were saying a lot of times that for short moments Goku reach higher speed, well DB fighters can magnify in a gigantic output of ki all their abilities, Piccolo explain this to android 20, and it makes sense with countless of feats. so they go faster than they are in a short moment, and one kick or punch at that moment has more power than his standar strenght, speed and durability, that is the way i see it. i will never have the proof of how fast they(DBZ fighters) can be, but they(DBZ fighters) pass their own abilities when they do that, and a higher the Ki of the character, the higher the burst is, and a higher power up is.
About the cluster of Cells, I accept what you say, your explanation about 2 cluster makes sense, and Cell was destroy until the point of being invisible to the naked eye. the scans show that we dont see nothing visible in the panel and I cant not i use the anime that show the cells being destroyed so your point is valid.
Not that I said that you denie the power of the blast, and my point is to prove the durabilty and resistant of the characters, and the power of the blast, for all in general, not for you only. If you allready see it like this then is ok, for I only see a SSJ3 blast will have effect on Superman, in my opinion.
I am trying to show the capabilities of DB as i see it, i am not trying to do a crossover either, but i am trying to show what is Goku capable of, and yes in the crooss over any of them could win, like the artist in the scans that Destiny guy show of the fan made comic Superman vs Goku.
Ki is not magic, I never said that, is a sort mistical power. will it damage Superman? Superman soporters say no, and Goku soporters say yes.
Again the site about Superman is Dc information, it explain all his powers, I agree that laser and radiation in the current Superman wont do nothing to him, but that the Ki blast is stronger than those.
Goku can get SSJ3 fast, did it against Superbuu, i can put the scan if you want.
Originally posted by Kento
I don't think Gokou was to out of character in that because he wanted to fight somebody who was unwilling to. Look at what he said just to try to get Uub to fight.
They were in a fighting tournament, Goku wanted Ubb to release his power he previously sense in him, the same power as kid Buu, the kid was in the arena.
The scan of Goku attacking Superman just to have a fight is out of character.
It will never be a good reason for them to fight than a friendly match or one of them become evil.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
I've read that before, but there are so many things wrong with it I can barely begin to describe them.1. Goku was completely OOC
2. He no longer uses the nyoi-bo (can't remember how to spell the Japanese name for his pole thing) as an adult
3. Superman wouldn't have any ki, or at most, a small amount of ki since his powers aren't based on it
4. Goku could not hurt Superman with a punch, especially not in base formOtherwise, it's ok. The artist did a great job.
goku in the scan was surprised when supermans eyes lasers had no chi...superman never used ki i nthe fight
if anything superman mightve rolled of the punch like he usually does