mace vs traya

Has anyone ever stopped something as small as a lightsaber from being crushed?

Plus I'd imagine that would be very texing on her concentration to fight Mace through the force and levitate her lightsabers to defend against his strikes, if that makes sense.

Originally posted by Ivalice
Fine, ill admit that i had exagerrated that claim, but the fact remains that it is up to YOU to prove they were powerful considering the fact that the three of them have yet to demonstrate remarkable combat prowess on the level of mace windu.

And HOW are they "the most powerful" of their era when they have yet to accomplish anything remarkable with the force?

And that you would have to prove. Wow so because it worked on 3 masters it means it would work on some one obviously MUCH more powerful than even the three jedi masters combined.

It occurs to me that you forget the stronger the opponent, the higher his defences and resistance are. Yes, kreia will beat mace with the force but it would be no easy feat as you are trying to imply.

And WHERE did i imply that? I merely made a claim that he has attacks of his own, i never said he would defeat traya through the force.

Your making it sound as if its ownage hence i see the need to engage in a debate.

I think that suspending hundreds of tons of rock with TK is alot more impressive than killing three jedi masters whom have yet to demonstrate any remarkable combat prowess.

Mace Windu is my favorite character, so I'm not going to shortchange him. But your arguments are dumb. Period.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
To quote Darth Sexy: No

what ? Ivalice is the one who said it took 3 Jedi Masters to hold off the Exile
that shows the Exile is far more than an average Jedi

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gideon
It does sound rather illogical and questionable, and I would agree that Ivalice's statement is clearly exaggerated. Though, in the same token, evidence is required to prove that even these three are a match or on par with Mace Windu; that they were among the most powerful of their own era is not an indicator that this is so.

Originally posted by Faunus:
Of course not, and I've never made that claim. But completely overpowering three of the most powerful Jedi of an era simultaneously is one of the greatest feats of offensive Force use we've seen in the saga, period, and Ivalice needs to stop trying to trivialize that. [/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Faunus:
And yet she overpowered three Jedi Masters at once. If you say Mace is more powerful than three of them "put together" again, I'm reporting you for being an idiot. Seriously.

Now I'm confused.

Originally posted by Gideon
Now I'm confused.

Originally posted by Faunus
Confused about what? I'm not arguing that any of the three even approach Mace in power, I'm telling him to substantiate the claim that with their Force powers combined, all of them are still weaker than Mace.

Well, that's what I was referencing in the quoted post. Especially given how Vaapad tends to negate dark side advantages in Sith and Dark Jedi, in order for someone to claim that Traya would win, the burden of proof is not on Ivalice, but rather the ones who claimed she could.

Originally posted by Gideon
Well, that's what I was referencing in the quoted post. Especially given how Vaapad tends to negate dark side advantages in Sith and Dark Jedi, in order for someone to claim that Traya would win, the burden of proof is not on Ivalice, but rather the ones who claimed she could.

No, not really. Vaapad is never shown to just make the dark side weaker, or make those using the dark side harmless. Far from it. No, it simply allows the user to empty themselves and by doing so reflect back raw energy in the form of Sith Lightning. Nowhere in Shatterpoint does Mace Windu just make his opponents harmless or pathetic, and neither of those he faced had as much power as Traya.

So unless Mace Windu's Vaapad will make him immune to Force drain on a fatal level (unlikely) and he is of sufficient skill and power enough to absorb and deflect any and all of her force attacks (Again, unlikely. Traya is not likely to just fire off lightning at him with abandon), it stands to reason that Mace is at a disadvantage. His fighting style does not "negate" the dark side itself.

Originally posted by Faunus
I don't have to prove anything until you substantiate the claim that three esteemed Jedi Masters and council members were "utter weaklings."

Originally posted by Faunus

Among. Don't put words in my mouth, and don't dare to ask for proof until you provide something other than your obviously meaningless and uninformed opinion.

Again, how are they among the most powerful of their era when they have yet to even demonstrate reasonable combat prowess to even put them in that category?

What feats have they accomplished? What combat prowess had they demonstrated? What even indicates they are the most powerful of their era? Hell and we hardly know shit about zez kai ell yet you made such an unsupported an absurb claim that they(the three masters) are among the most powerful of their era and when i ask you to prove it, you ask me to prove a negative when there is absolutely nothing to even indicate that zez kai ell and vrook are above average jedi let alone "most powerful AMONG their era"

Originally posted by Faunus

I've suspected it all along, but you've just confirmed it; you're an idiot. I've actually tried my best to be nice to you, but this is so stupid it's not even funny anymore. You admit that you made an exaggerated (read: moronic, unsubstantiated) claim, then reassert it and tell me to prove up, then make yet another foolish claim. I shouldn't even bother responding to this bullshit anymore.

Maybe your just trying to avoid the fact that there is nothing to back you up in the first place?

Originally posted by Faunus
And yet she overpowered three Jedi Masters at once.
[/B]

Originally posted by Faunus
If you say Mace is more powerful than three of them "put together" again, I'm reporting you for being an idiot. Seriously. [/B]

Hell even the three of them combined failed to cut the exile off the force as quickly as nomi did to ulic so really? What the **** makes you think they can even compare to mace combat prowess?

Hell and when had they demonstrated any remarkable combat prowess?

Originally posted by Faunus
An my point is that his offensive powers are going to do jack against Traya. Got it? Good. Unless you really think Mace is going to Force Crush her to death, don't even bother bringing this up again.

Originally posted by Faunus
If by a debate you mean throwing out garbage claims and tossing around the burden of proof, yeah, this is one of the finest debates I've ever seen.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
[B]When?
]

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
[B]
If he did then, well, he didn't have to out-force someone as powerful as Traya to do it. I notice that you skipped over her feat of Sith killing, which took SKILL.
]

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
[B]
And she didn't even strain, unlike Mace, who struggled against Grevious.
]

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
[B]
Well, duh. Vader is a Sith Lord and can beat pretty much everyone in his era, but she still gave him a fight which was my point. He did not 'tool her easily'
]

Plus I'd imagine that would be very texing on her concentration to fight Mace through the force and levitate her lightsabers to defend against his strikes, if that makes sense

As taxing as masking you force signiture, hiding you real feature and still fighting and using Force powers?

Hell even the three of them combined failed to cut the exile off the force as quickly as nomi did to ulic so really?

I don't recall that they even started.

Hell and when had they demonstrated any remarkable combat prowess?

Kavar demonstrated remarkable talent during the JCW. He was also thought by the mandalorians to be the best warrior of the Jedi before Revan.

Never watched the CW cartoons?

I don't watch shit, I burn it.
And I'm a little old for cartoons.

Maybe they willingly died considering the fact that they did not draw their weapons?

No.
Just no.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

I don't recall that they even started.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Kavar demonstrated remarkable talent during the JCW. He was also thought by the mandalorians to be the best warrior of the Jedi before Revan.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

I don't watch shit, I burn it.
And I'm a little old for cartoons.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

No.
Just no.

Then what the f*ck was that blue aura surrounding the exile?

Force Stun

Prove that hey fought.

She walked through them and they died. It's pretty obvious what happened. It wasn't really much of a fight, but they didn't just decide to die randomly and somehow inducted brain hemorrages.

In terms of saber combat prowess yes, but please DO name that talent.

Just talent. But it was obviously war-related, not the ability to stuff 300 straws in his mouth or something.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Force Stun

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

She walked through them and they died. It's pretty obvious what happened. It wasn't really much of a fight, but they didn't just decide to die randomly and somehow inducted brain hemorrages.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Just talent. But it was obviously war-related, not the ability to stuff 300 straws in his mouth or something.

Again, how are they among the most powerful of their era when they have yet to even demonstrate reasonable combat prowess to even put them in that category?

1. The Jedi masters all knew the seven lightsaber fighting forms. They each have the capability to train the Exile in three of them- Ataru, Juyo, and Djem so/Shien. I don't have to point out that Juyo is a master's form and difficult to learn; far more difficult to master. It requires extensive knowledge of the other forms and Mace's superior Vaapad is really just Juyo with an added mental element. It's deadly, as its name implies. Maul uses it to own people; Sidious likely uses it to own people.

2. Kavar is called by Mandalore the "famed Jedi Guardian", and is lauded by the Mandalorians for his prowess. They were eager to fight him in battle, and respected him more than his fellow jedi. This clearly means Kavar has earned a reputation for being a damn good fighter/tactician in his era. Perhaps the best among the Jedi before Revan and Malak came on the scene. He pretty much knocks out an entire cantina full of mercenaries with a motion, a nod to his Force ability.

3. Vrook is the second-in-command of the Jedi High Council next to Vandar throughout the era, and takes over in his stead, being the spokesperson for the other Jedi and pretty much controlling the Order. He's the KotOR version of Mace, but without the uber blackness and the Vaapad saber prodigy-ness. That said, it's hard to establish his exact mastery, but he seems to lord over the other Jedi, even when Vandar was on the scene.

4. Master Zez-Kai Ell, unfortunately, can only be substantiated to be a Jedi High Council member and a master of the higher lightsaber forms. We never discover enough of his past to establish his straight dueling ability, but considering he and the other two masters here can also instruct the Exile in the higher Force meditations I would presume that all three are effectively on the highest tier a Jedi master can be in KotOR in that area too.

^ Just based on the above, you have clear evidence that these Jedi are well-learned in both lightsaber combat AND the Force. All three of them evaded and survived the Sith Purge from Revan and latter Nihilus and Sion. Kavar was noted as being martially capable beyond the Outer Rim and among the Mandalorians, who themselves did not respect the Jedi as a whole. Vrook is perhaps the second most powerful Jedi High Council Jedi after the late Vandar, and one of the eldest Jedi in the era who practices the Force. On a sidenote, although gameplay does not itself reflect canon, I personally found Vrook to be the hardest Jedi master to kill if you go straight Dark Side. He's programmed to be the strongest of the three.

Now, proving that they are top o' the line in their era? Clearly, the Sith Lords are more powerful: Revan and Malak were more than a match for any one of them. Sion killed Vash, who was a peer of theres (Though her power is not substantiated. She could be a Coleman Trebor). Nihilus killed every Jedi on Katarr, including Master Vandar, so it's safe to assume he's head and shoulders above the Jedi Masters by virtue of his nature and special powers.

So that's the upper cap. Obviously, they don't transcend any of those folks. Who's next?

Jedi Exile. Who was clearly overpowered by the Council as a whole, although it seems possible that the Exile could defeat them one-on-one. This is because the Exile could adapt their forms at a mere glance (Like some sort of Star Wars Shatterstar) and because the Exile could drain them when they got winded. So I suppose by extention of her powers, the Exile may be better than any single one of them, but combined they piss all over her.

Atris. Atris's standings aren't shown to be too impressive. She's not an absolute weakling, but she is a Jedi historian and leans more towards Force powers than anything. The Jedi Exile overcomes her in combat even when she sinks to using Dark Side powers (Which are inherently offensive and sort of like hacking), so I'm inclined to think that she's a bit mild in comparison. I would place her below the three.

Traya. Traya rapes them. It's pretty evident.

Lesser jedi and sith. Let's face it- we don't really see any lesser Jedi or Sith in this era like we do with other eras. There's no Darth Bandon, or Jedi Knight Fabio or anything. The Jedi masters are all that's left of the order. The only other comparable Force users are either superior Sith Lords, or late-in-coming padawans. So it's actually pretty hard to say they're definitively top of the list when there's no way to evaluate the middle or bottom.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
1. The Jedi masters all knew the seven lightsaber fighting forms. They each have the capability to train the Exile in three of them- Ataru, Juyo, and Djem so/Shien. I don't have to point out that Juyo is a master's form and difficult to learn; far more difficult to master. It requires extensive knowledge of the other forms and Mace's superior Vaapad is really just Juyo with an added mental element. It's deadly, as its name implies. Maul uses it to own people; Sidious likely uses it to own people.

2. Kavar is called by Mandalore the "famed Jedi Guardian", and is lauded by the Mandalorians for his prowess. They were eager to fight him in battle, and respected him more than his fellow jedi. This clearly means Kavar has earned a reputation for being a damn good fighter/tactician in his era. Perhaps the best among the Jedi before Revan and Malak came on the scene. He pretty much knocks out an entire cantina full of mercenaries with a motion, a nod to his Force ability.

3. Vrook is the second-in-command of the Jedi High Council next to Vandar throughout the era, and takes over in his stead, being the spokesperson for the other Jedi and pretty much controlling the Order. He's the KotOR version of Mace, but without the uber blackness and the Vaapad saber prodigy-ness. That said, it's hard to establish his exact mastery, but he seems to lord over the other Jedi, even when Vandar was on the scene.

4. Master Zez-Kai Ell, unfortunately, can only be substantiated to be a Jedi High Council member and a master of the higher lightsaber forms. We never discover enough of his past to establish his straight dueling ability, but considering he and the other two masters here can also instruct the Exile in the higher Force meditations I would presume that all three are effectively on the highest tier a Jedi master can be in KotOR in that area too.

^ Just based on the above, you have clear evidence that these Jedi are [b]well-learned in both lightsaber combat AND the Force. All three of them evaded and survived the Sith Purge from Revan and latter Nihilus and Sion. Kavar was noted as being martially capable beyond the Outer Rim and among the Mandalorians, who themselves did not respect the Jedi as a whole. Vrook is perhaps the second most powerful Jedi High Council Jedi after the late Vandar, and one of the eldest Jedi in the era who practices the Force. On a sidenote, although gameplay does not itself reflect canon, I personally found Vrook to be the hardest Jedi master to kill if you go straight Dark Side. He's programmed to be the strongest of the three.

Now, proving that they are top o' the line in their era? Clearly, the Sith Lords are more powerful: Revan and Malak were more than a match for any one of them. Sion killed Vash, who was a peer of theres (Though her power is not substantiated. She could be a Coleman Trebor). Nihilus killed every Jedi on Katarr, including Master Vandar, so it's safe to assume he's head and shoulders above the Jedi Masters by virtue of his nature and special powers.

So that's the upper cap. Obviously, they don't transcend any of those folks. Who's next?

Jedi Exile. Who was clearly overpowered by the Council as a whole, although it seems possible that the Exile could defeat them one-on-one. This is because the Exile could adapt their forms at a mere glance (Like some sort of Star Wars Shatterstar) and because the Exile could drain them when they got winded. So I suppose by extention of her powers, the Exile may be better than any single one of them, but combined they piss all over her.

Atris. Atris's standings aren't shown to be too impressive. She's not an absolute weakling, but she is a Jedi historian and leans more towards Force powers than anything. The Jedi Exile overcomes her in combat even when she sinks to using Dark Side powers (Which are inherently offensive and sort of like hacking), so I'm inclined to think that she's a bit mild in comparison. I would place her below the three.

Traya. Traya rapes them. It's pretty evident.

Lesser jedi and sith. Let's face it- we don't really see any lesser Jedi or Sith in this era like we do with other eras. There's no Darth Bandon, or Jedi Knight Fabio or anything. The Jedi masters are all that's left of the order. The only other comparable Force users are either superior Sith Lords, or late-in-coming padawans. So it's actually pretty hard to say they're definitively top of the list when there's no way to evaluate the middle or bottom. [/B]

Originally posted by Janus Marius
[B]No, not really. Vaapad is never shown to just make the dark side weaker, or make those using the dark side harmless. Far from it. No, it simply allows the user to empty themselves and by doing so reflect back raw energy in the form of Sith Lightning. Nowhere in Shatterpoint does Mace Windu just make his opponents harmless or pathetic, and neither of those he faced had as much power as Traya.

No one claimed that Vaapad "makes the dark side weaker" or "those using the dark side harmless", Janus. The claim was that Vaapad negates dark side advantages, which -- according to the RotS novelization -- it damn well does; Palpatine initially held the advantage, he was faster and more ferocious than Mace (hence the three dead Jedi Masters and why Mace -- a startlingly aggressive fighter -- was put on the defensive for the first portion of the lightsaber duel). Only once he submerged himself in Vaapad did Palpatine and himself reach an "impasse... which might have gone on forever if Vaapad were Mace's only gift" (it then goes on to cite the shatterpoint charism). The aforementioned reflection of lightning is but one of the examples of Vaapad's superconducting loop.

So unless Mace Windu's Vaapad will make him immune to Force drain on a fatal level (unlikely) and he is of sufficient skill and power enough to absorb and deflect any and all of her force attacks (Again, unlikely. Traya is not likely to just fire off lightning at him with abandon), it stands to reason that Mace is at a disadvantage. His fighting style does not "negate" the dark side itself.

No one said it "negated" the dark side itself, Janus, and I would recommend a career as a political spin doctor; especially when one considers the remarkable rate of failure they've had thus far, I'm sure you'd be welcomed with open arms. Mace is at a disadvantage in the Force, but no proof has been offered that suggests that she could somehow drain him, as it has not been even suggested that the three masters she killed compare to Windu, even collectively. Windu was at a disadvantage with Sidious in the Force as well, yet he still managed to defeat him.

One thing I see here, however: Traya does not use the drain/sever ability except in the one instance...in that she was incredibly furious in the context. It might stand to reason she wouldn't use it against a Jedi who hadn't, in her eyes, committed such a grievous sin as trying that with the Exile.

Again guys, trayus core has cliffs and sharp rocks, and mace seems to like using the force on sharp rocks and metals

Escape:

Please feel free to read the excerpts from the RotS novelisation and point out to me where your idea that "Vaapad negates dark side advantages" is conclusively proven with the source text. Feel free to scan or type out and cite any additional text from the source if you'd like...

P. 329

Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side.

Mace Windu created this style, and he was its only living master.

[...]

P. 330

There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.

He had learned that it is fear which gives the darkness power.

He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But-

Neither did he have power over it.

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow [Palpatine]; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Impasse.

It appears so far that Mace Windu's Vaapad gives him power over himself and making sure the Dark Side does not claim him. Nowhere is it shown or stated that he is able to simply defuse all Force attacks or make Sith Lords and Ladies saber-fodder.

P. 332Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him.

And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

This is conclusive; Vaapad allowed Mace Windu to absorb some of the power of the Sith Lightning and redirect it back at Sidious easier. In the movie (Read: true canon) he stuggled with it, but the book implies that he had no real difficulties. Likewise, nothing other than the lightning is noted as being reflected in this case, so Occam's Razor demands that we only consider Mace able to reflect the Sith Lightning, unless of course you are willing to ante up with a source which explicitly says otherwise and is credible or not taken out of context. Feel free to do so.

LS:

One thing I see here, however: Traya does not use the drain/sever ability except in the one instance...in that she was incredibly furious in the context. It might stand to reason she wouldn't use it against a Jedi who hadn't, in her eyes, committed such a grievous sin as trying that with the Exile.

You're violating Occam's Razor as well to give Mace a fighting chance. We can see that Traya has the ability to zap three Jedi masters dead (In the cut content, which is unfortunately not considered canon, she toys with them beforehand and they are helpless) within seconds. Her state of mind is not explictly shown to be the cause of this (Traya does not say, become unable to do it later against the Sith assassins), and all we can prove and argue is that she does have the ability and since she does have it and there's no real PIS explicitly showing it being a product of circumstance or unusual factors, we must consider it to be part of her Force attack tool-kit. Again, Occam's Razor.

You're violating Occam's Razor as well to give Mace a fighting chance. We can see that Traya has the ability to zap three Jedi masters dead (In the cut content, which is unfortunately not considered canon, she toys with them beforehand and they are helpless) within seconds. Her state of mind is not explictly shown to be the cause of this (Traya does not say, become unable to do it later against the Sith assassins), and all we can prove and argue is that she does have the ability and since she does have it and there's no real PIS explicitly showing it being a product of circumstance or unusual factors, we must consider it to be part of her Force attack tool-kit. Again, Occam's Razor. [/B]

Recall, Traya's attack is not a 'drain' per se, as if she is literally sucking the force/life out of them to feed herself. Rather, her attack severs them from the Force and they are unable to handle 'seeing the galaxy through the eyes of the Exile.'

Without the Force, Mace would definately lose though.