It might help if the opposition could somehow prove or provide evidence suggesting that, simply because Traya can dismantle those three Jedi Masters, she can do the same to Mace. I mean, hell, I can apply that logic to Sidious. He obliterated three of the Order's finest. I guess he can pwn any individual Jedi, since he can do the same to a group.
LS:
You forget, however, that Traya's line prior to using her attack is to declare that they will now see the galaxy 'through the eyes of the Exile.' This, along with her fury at the preceding events does show something, and what Traya does, exactly to the Sith Assassins is left unclear.
As we know from previously in the game, such disconnection is usually fatal given Jedi reliance on the Force. The only other option here, however, is seen in the Republic: Siege of Saleucami arc when such severance from the Force can be done by the PT Jedi (at least the higher up masters), with voluntary control, whereas reconnecting oneself is just as voluntary.Recall, Traya's attack is not a 'drain' per se, as if she is literally sucking the force/life out of them to feed herself. Rather, her attack severs them from the Force and they are unable to handle 'seeing the galaxy through the eyes of the Exile.'
So by sucking the life/force out of them and feeding herself they are not drained? I don't get that logic at all.
And they were severed from the Force and left dead, lifeless husks. So obviously if three rather competent and aged Jedi Masters can't withstand a sudden ripping of the Force (Even if I were to accept your idea that they were just wusses and couldn't handle it) I don't see the proof that Mace Windu can.
She rips the Force from him. He lives, probably because he's Sammy. She then proceeds to Force crush him to death because he has no force to counter with. GG.
Escape:
It might help if the opposition could somehow prove or provide evidence suggesting that, simply because Traya can dismantle those three Jedi Masters, she can do the same to Mace. I mean, hell, I can apply that logic to Sidious. He obliterated three of the Order's finest. I guess he can pwn any individual Jedi, since he can do the same to a group.
You're really grabbing at straws now. I'm glad that you didn't try to argue in the face of the passages though. Opting to admit that your Vaapad stance was incorrect is the first step in maturing as a debator.
Now, let's go ahead and compare the two scenarios you're making to be equal:
Darth Traya is a formidable Sith Lady who has shown the ability to kill a group of Sith assassins in a heartbeat, as well as make three powerful* jedi masters her *****. She pushes Kavar back with ease and then kills the trio in the confrontation with as much effort as it takes me to type this. Actually, far less. In the cut content, she plays with them first, force crushing them, choking them, and they're absolutely helpless to resist. To put this into perspective, this would be like Sidious or Dooku force choking and force maiming Mace, Ki-Adi-Mundi, and Obi-Wan without any apparent effort all at the same time. Or just killing them in a heartbeat.
(* this is tagged so you can attack it without restraint instead of logically refuting the argument as a whole)
So it's already apparent that Traya's force-feat has not been replicated by her PT competition. Not even slightly.
Let's look at your suggestion:
Sidious got the one-up on three Jedi masters and killed them in a melee. Already, it's a different animal. Not all melee battles are going to be exactly the same, but direct and seemingly unblockable force attacks are pretty straightforward. Let's ignore the hotly-debated and extremely questionable idea of those three being "the order's finest" (As I seem to recall someone else noting that it's Obi-Wan's own opinion where that is concerned) and look at the specifics of the canon source of the fight- Sidious stands up, pulls his lightsaber, ignites it. Already the clock is running at ten plus seconds. He then screams like a banshee from hell, jumps up in the air and psycho-crushes his way towards the enemy, who fails to react. They simply don't do anything. They, the supposed creme de la creme of the PT Order, sit there and pull a stupid face. Sidious then casually leans in and stabs one, slashes another without any apparent superior skill or effort, and then Kit Fisto gets owned because he couldn't provide an adequate defense in a relatively mild exchange of blows.
So yeah, by extension of this logic, the entire PT era Jedi suck donkey balls because their finest were wiped about without adequately defending themselves against the most straight-forward assault in the entire series, save for Luke swinging his lightsaber like a baseball bat at Vader. Unless the PT era Jedi are reknown chess players, this kind of behavior only reinforces how pathetic they were in saber combat. Anakin and Obi-Wan, who are supposively their peers, defend themselves against far more and show far more actual skill and incredible reflexes. Even TPM Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan show superior lightsaber capability.
Again, let's recap and compare:
Traya has shown an ability to dominate three powerful Jedi masters who have shown mastery of the lightsaber forms and higher force forms without any effort whatsoever.
vs.
Sidious has shown the ability to get the jump on three Jedi masters who have the attention span of Boo Radley and the tight, amazing defense of a youngling holding a baton.
Not comparable. Try again.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
You're really grabbing at straws now. I'm glad that you didn't try to argue in the face of the passages though. Opting to admit that your Vaapad stance was incorrect is the first step in maturing as a debator.
Oh, how cute. Janus Marius -- the onetime legendary proponent of Marka Ragnos's ability to waltz through a gauntlet with the likes of Exar Kun, Luke Skywalker, and Darth Sidious without "requiring full use of his limbs" and Count Dooku's "obvious superiority" over Darth Sidious -- is going to lecture someone about an incorrect stance? Really, Janus, you don't want to take us down this avenue; KMC is full of dozens upon dozens of threads where you made yourself look like a complete ass. You'd be laughed off here and back to your dying EoD in a matter of minutes. As I've explained to you via PM (the one that I sent to you a few days ago, to which you haven't responded), you've went from screaming from the virtual rooftops how "Ragnos is god!!1!" and flaming those who disagree to being knocked on your ass so far that even the most biased Ancient Sith fanboys either disagree (Darth Sexy here) or now want them kept out of the versus matches alltogether because they can't prove their point (Deception on EoD). How far you've fallen, Janus. And just when I think you've hit rock bottom, you manage to find a lower place.
But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.Impasse.
Now, despite your laughable dabbles in political wordplay, no one here has argued that Vaapad "negates the dark side itself!!1!one!1!", but this passage makes it clear, that once Windu delved deep within Vaapad, he was able to draw upon the dark side's strengths and use them to match the one making use of them (Sidious). That is why Sidious was able to dismantle the other three swordsman, despite Mace's intervention, and press Mace (a ruthlessly offensive fighter) on the defensive. He was faster and more agile and only when Mace summoned Vaapad into what the omniscient narrator described as "Vaapad's ultimate test" did Windu establish a parity with the Sith Lord.
As for the rest, you still haven't proven that those three Jedi Masters -- even united -- compare to Windu. Until you do, I don't have to do a damn thing. And slapping on the label of "powerful" doesn't mean or substantiate a damn thing. You made the claim. The burden of proof is on you, Janus.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
[B]LS:So by sucking the life/force out of them and feeding herself they are not drained? I don't get that logic at all.
And they were severed from the Force and left dead, lifeless husks. So obviously if three rather competent and aged Jedi Masters can't withstand a sudden ripping of the Force (Even if I were to accept your idea that they were just wusses and couldn't handle it) I don't see the proof that Mace Windu can.
She rips the Force from him. He lives, probably because he's Sammy. She then proceeds to Force crush him to death because he has no force to counter with. GG.
Escape:
You and I cannot ever begin to understand each other, so I'll leave you and your girlfriend DS to your own opinions.
LS:
No, I'm saying she is precisely not sucking it out of them. They are severed, not drained.
Ah, gotcha. However, the animation is exactly the same as the Force Drain ability, and Nihilus, who feeds on the Force, uses the exact same animation too. I would put forth that since the only media source depicts Force Drain and Traya's attack as exactly the same, we must conclude that hers is a higher level Force drain which could potentially kill Jedi masters of some prestige.
I'm not saying they were anything of the sort, Janus. The difference is between the generations-that Mace's generation, thanks to the rebuilding, has learned how to function without the Force....such a sudden severance killed the trio because they could not live without the Force. The same is untrue for the PT Jedi.
Not to dismiss the idea out of hand, but can you provide me with a source that PT era Jedi can survive Force Drains or Force Sever abilities?
This does, however, assume Traya will immediately retaliate before Mace can reconnect him. That he's able to survive the severance would shock her severance. With the Exile's sole exception, Traya expects Jedi to need the Force to live.
The Force itself is tied to life though. When Force drain abilities or like abilities were employed by Exar Kun and Sidous, they invariably killed the targets. In any case, I doubt that if Traya's initial attack is successful enough to rip the force from him, but not enough to kill him, that he is in any way, shape, or form to counter.
Originally posted by Janus
Escape:You and I cannot ever begin to understand each other, so I'll leave you and your girlfriend DS to your own opinions.
Well, I can't speak for your end, but I understand you just fine. Let us speak in facts: you are the leader of a group who used to practically rule these particular forums, preaching unprovable dogma that you expected all to adhere to, be it "Marka Ragnos is all powerful!!1!" or "Sidious sux!!1!" or "Dooku is king of teh peetee!!11!" or "The Rakatta will pwnz0rs the Empire!!11!!!11!" and so on, and you would flame or attack anyone who disagreed with you (one of you even suggested that Lightsnake should opt for suicide). Then along comes Lightsnake, who begins to change people's opinions, mine being one of them. We amass a shitload of proof and direct statements and all of a sudden, you're not unopposed anymore. The tides shift, our side gets more support, so you retreat to EoD, whereupon you -- having full administrative powers -- are now able to completely exercise dominion over everyone who does not agree. Hell, two of your most active members -- Lightsnake and Darth Sexy -- are frequently ridiculed. You accuse them of trolling and mock them constantly, even though IKC and others are equally guilty of such behavior (one of the reasons I was driven out, you tried to crucify me), but since they're in your little group, they get immunity. Jesus, Janus, lol many members of EoD have commented to me how your very presence makes the place like hell; they think you're a failed administrator. One of the reasons, I'm sure, why the place hasn't grown or progressed. Then, when you return here, you play the victim card. You pretend that Lightsnake and I run around and proclaim Sidious to be invincible, even though we've argued to the contrary, and I once told you that I went out of my way to reiterate that he wasn't (can you say the same about Ragnos?). And every time you ask us "why?", we answer. When the question about Ragnos is posed to you, you conveniently decide not to answer. Hell, you're all up for debating and jabbing up until now.
Please. We both know who's the sham around here. As always, the invitation for a discussion is on the table, and I'll be more than happy to listen and to chat with you so that we can get a better understanding of one another. You've always declined.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Pseudointellectuals have too much time on their hands.. Why don't you go back to debating "What is reality?"
Perhaps. I am disappointed that Janus's ability to conjure skillfully sarcastic comments seems to be fading with his ability to debate in a competent fashion; "girlfriend"? WTF? I'm expecting a remark about cooties, next.
To be fair, Darth Sexy, I don't see why you return to EoD, since you all don't seem to be particularly fond of one another. Especially after this particularly brutal round.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Escape:You and I cannot ever begin to understand each other, so I'll leave you and your girlfriend DS to your own opinions.
LS:
Ah, gotcha. However, the animation is exactly the same as the Force Drain ability, and Nihilus, who feeds on the Force, uses the exact same animation too. I would put forth that since the only media source depicts Force Drain and Traya's attack as exactly the same, we must conclude that hers is a higher level Force drain which could potentially kill Jedi masters of some prestige.
As for Nihilus...it's the same principle. Nihilus doesn't 'suck' the Force out...he severs life from the force and gains sustenance from the death created.
Not to dismiss the idea out of hand, but can you provide me with a source that PT era Jedi can survive Force Drains or Force Sever abilities?
The Force itself is tied to life though. When Force drain abilities or like abilities were employed by Exar Kun and Sidous, they invariably killed the targets.
In any case, I doubt that if Traya's initial attack is successful enough to rip the force from him, but not enough to kill him, that he is in any way, shape, or form to counter.
Now, Nai:
Sexy...you are, as always, wrong. Lightsnake and Escape can come in handing in quotes from sourcebooks back and forth, about Sidious being the most powerful Sith Lord ever.http://forums.starwars.com/thread.j...&start=1200
Now read what "Tasty Taste" aka Leland Chee has written about statements like that:
"There's always going to be room for interpretation and debate. Is the power being measured referring to his mastery over the dark side of the Force, the governmental powers he wields as Emperor, or some combination of both?" (answering the question if Sidious is the "most powerful" Sith Lord if that statement is mentioned in a sourcebook.Ups. Aside of that:
"Us continuity people don't deal in absolutes. Only Sith deal in absolutes."So. Even Sidious status as "most powerful Sith Lord" is still up for debate. I'm afraid.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
The Siege of Saleucami arc in the Republic comic series is the start (For the severance thing...we know that PT Jedi-at least the higher ups- can sever and reconnect)
One thing Lightsnake, you're referring to how Tholme uses the force to trick Quinlan into thinking he was dead, right? If that's the case, then cutting himself from the Force wouldn't seem to make much sense, seeing as the Force runs through all matter (as stated by Yoda in ESB), living or dead, sentient by nature or otherwise. The force would still be a part of his body if he were to have actually died. He most likely went into a trance or something just as Kreia does at the beginning of KotOR2. I'm pretty certain he couldn't actually completely disconnect himself from the Force.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Now, Nai:If this is the case, Yoda as the most powerful PT Jedi, Luke as the most powerful of all time, Bane as the most powerful Sith of the Brotherhood and Exar as the most powerful of the Brotherhood of Sith could well fall under scrutiny as well. Just because something may change in the future doesn't mean it isn't clear cut as of now.
While it might be up for debate, this hardly means the debate won't be a clear cut one.
Erm.
First Lightsnake: You're comparing apples to oranges here. Comparing people that lived in one era [or were part of the same organisation at the same time] is far less difficult than comparing people that lived in different eras.
For example Yoda being the most powerful PT Jedi comes from the fact that even his second in command (Mace) puts himself far below Yoda, while even his opponents (Dooku, Sidious) admit that they were inferior to him (Dooku at times) or were partially lucky in surving a confrontation with him (Sidious to a certain extend in RoDV). There's simply no room to argue for another being there. The same is the case with the other examples you listed. Who should be more powerful than Kun or Bane in their respective time/organisation?
Comparing people from different times is an entire different story. How powerful is Ragnos or Kun compared to Revan or Sidious? Question that get especially tricky when all you have on certain characters are third-party accounts of their power.
Second: Given that. How do you want to have debates "clear cut" that have comparisons like that involved? Hell. The SW universe is build to generate ambigious statements because it should be able to satisfy every fan. That means you need to satisfy the fans of the Ancient Sith, the KotoR Sith and the new Sith (Sidious) as well. "Path of Destruction" is the perfect example for that mechanism. You Ancient Sith teachings (Ancient Sith) given to Revan (KotoR) and handed down to Bane who used it to built his Ro2-Order which culminated in Sidious (movie / Sidious fans).
Yet I could argue that the Ancients must be the most powerful (because the new more than Revan and in turn Bane and with him Sidious). Or I could state that Revan was the most powerful (because he took all from the Ancients, had own stuff, yet didn't give all to Bane and therefore Sidious). Or I could come up with the idea that Sidious is the most powerful because he had all the Ancients had + stuff from Revan + stuff added in the 1000 years from Bane to him. All works perfectly fine because the interpretation is just base on the opinion the reader has. There aren't absolutes in the SW universe. Hence you could even argue that Kyle Katarn is the most powerful Jedi ever - because he absorbed all that nice power from the Valley of the Jedi on top of his already formidable potential - yet he just limits himself through his mindset. You could do that if you were a fan of Kyle Katarn - no problemo.
In the same manner you can question every single source. Really. LFL now even installs fictional characters writing the "Essential Guides" from an in universe perspective, so that they can blame mistakes on "shoddy journalism" but, I think, even moreso to make absolute statements impossible, comparing the power of individuals. On a literary level you will find that almost every quote regarding power of characters is ambigious. An example?
"When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered-in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the
strength of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge. Perhaps the best weapon in his arsenal was his keen understanding of galactic politics, and his
seemingly unlimited ability to engineer situations that ultimately served to further empower the Sith."
So. Sidious is "the most powerful of them"? Them being who? The two Sith that did return into the public? The strongest of all Sith in the past 1000 years (Bane's order)? And the "powerful" refers to what kind of power? His force abilities? Or his political power given that his understanding of galactic politics is sited as "the best weapon in his arsenal"? You think you can answer that question beyond doubt when even Leland Chee says this can't be done? I doubt that.
And because of all that there is no "clear cut" and almost nothing that can't be argued. If something exists it's general agreements among the debaters in this forum about certain topics. But that agreements are not unquestionable. I'm afraid.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Erm.
First Lightsnake: You're comparing apples to oranges here. Comparing people that lived in one era [or were part of the same organisation at the same time] is far less difficult than comparing people that lived in different eras.For example Yoda being the most powerful PT Jedi comes from the fact that even his second in command (Mace) puts himself far below Yoda, while even his opponents (Dooku, Sidious) admit that they were inferior to him (Dooku at times) or were partially lucky in surving a confrontation with him (Sidious to a certain extend in RoDV). There's simply no room to argue for another being there. The same is the case with the other examples you listed. Who should be more powerful than Kun or Bane in their respective time/organisation?
Comparing people from different times is an entire different story. How powerful is Ragnos or Kun compared to Revan or Sidious? Question that get especially tricky when all you have on certain characters are third-party accounts of their power.
Second: Given that. How do you want to have debates "clear cut" that have comparisons like that involved? Hell. The SW universe is build to generate ambigious statements because it should be able to satisfy every fan. That means you need to satisfy the fans of the Ancient Sith, the KotoR Sith and the new Sith (Sidious) as well. "Path of Destruction" is the perfect example for that mechanism. You Ancient Sith teachings (Ancient Sith) given to Revan (KotoR) and handed down to Bane who used it to built his Ro2-Order which culminated in Sidious (movie / Sidious fans).
Yet I could argue that the Ancients must be the most powerful (because the new more than Revan and in turn Bane and with him Sidious). Or I could state that Revan was the most powerful (because he took all from the Ancients, had own stuff, yet didn't give all to Bane and therefore Sidious). Or I could come up with the idea that Sidious is the most powerful because he had all the Ancients had + stuff from Revan + stuff added in the 1000 years from Bane to him. All works perfectly fine because the interpretation is just base on the opinion the reader has. There aren't absolutes in the SW universe. Hence you could even argue that Kyle Katarn is the most powerful Jedi ever - because he absorbed all that nice power from the Valley of the Jedi on top of his already formidable potential - yet he just limits himself through his mindset. You could do that if you were a fan of Kyle Katarn - no problemo.
In the same manner you can question every single source. Really. LFL now even installs fictional characters writing the "Essential Guides" from an in universe perspective, so that they can blame mistakes on "shoddy journalism" but, I think, even moreso to make absolute statements impossible, comparing the power of individuals. On a literary level you will find that almost every quote regarding power of characters is ambigious. An example?
"When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered-in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the
strength of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge. Perhaps the best weapon in his arsenal was his keen understanding of galactic politics, and his
seemingly unlimited ability to engineer situations that ultimately served to further empower the Sith."So. Sidious is "the most powerful of them"? Them being who? The two Sith that did return into the public? The strongest of all Sith in the past 1000 years (Bane's order)? And the "powerful" refers to what kind of power? His force abilities? Or his political power given that his understanding of galactic politics is sited as "the best weapon in his arsenal"? You think you can answer that question beyond doubt when even Leland Chee says this can't be done? I doubt that.
And because of all that there is no "clear cut" and almost nothing that can't be argued. If something exists it's general agreements among the debaters in this forum about certain topics. But that agreements are not unquestionable. I'm afraid.
You can't just sit there and call 10+ sources ambiguous because you don't agree. Some are in universe, others are not, but there is more than adequate proof concerning Sidious being #1. And if you DO ignore these quotes in favor of Sidious, then realize the one that plays the most important role in determining the best. And that quote is from Dark Empire Sourcebook, where the ANCIENT SITH called Sidious the greatest of them all, and the most powerful of them all, so there is NO basis on arguing that any ancient sith is above Sidious.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You can't just sit there and call 10+ sources ambiguous because you don't agree. Some are in universe, others are not, but there is more than adequate proof concerning Sidious being #1. And if you DO ignore these quotes in favor of Sidious, then realize the one that plays the most important role in determining the best. And that quote is from Dark Empire Sourcebook, where the ANCIENT SITH called Sidious the greatest of them all, and the most powerful of them all, so there is NO basis on arguing that any ancient sith is above Sidious.
Apparently, DS, you don't understand. I don't question the validity of source because I don't agree with what is said in them. I generally question the validity of sources as "absolute proof" for a certain opinion about a fictional universe.
And I think you refer to the Empire's End comic and not the DE Sourcebook (which doesn't have any articles talking about persons as far as I remember). And what do the Sith say?
Sidious: "If you will not heal this clone, then help me to find the Jedi Children - so that I m ay live. I command you."
Reaction:
Sith1: "How can one who has ruled only a few decades command those who held dominion for centuries?"
Sith2: "He long ago gave up everything...to the Dark Side of the force. I say let him have what he wants."
They admit that Sidious is superior to them? Where exactly? The first Sith replying to his command even questions his authority. Then the second just says that they should grant him what he wants because he had given up anything to the Dark Side of the force. Nothing about Sidious being superior to them here.
And even if there should be a quote saying so (I don't know where you got that from) it would only apply for the Sith Lords whose spirits were on Korriban at that point in time. Which would mean that every Sith Lord already gone to the netherworld at the force at that time (most of them, especially Ragnos) or those that didn't die on Korriban (Kun, Sadow, most likely Revan) would be excluded anyways.
So? Any other sources to list? Like the DSSB (qoute in it called ambigious by Leland Chee himself - explained in my last posting), the New Essential Guide (written by fallible in-universe historian) or other sources that can be dismantled in the same manner, since the people responsible for the SW:EU don't deal in absolutes? Boring.
let me find my copy of the sourcebook and I will get back to you but it goes something like "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived. I say we give what he wishes"
Then you have "Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."
I also got this from someone here a while back..
Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."
In the other thread Escape posts various quotes about Sidious being #1. Furthermore Ragnos was usually the spokesman for the ancient sith, unless you think some OTHER sith is holding that oracle speaking to Palpatine. Personally they completely changed the face of the ancient sith from DE but I guess those little plotholes are still canon.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I also got this from someone here a while back..
Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."
Well, you'd better give it back because it's obviously bullshit.