mace vs traya

Originally posted by Borbarad
Erm.
First Lightsnake: You're comparing apples to oranges here. Comparing people that lived in one era [or were part of the same organisation at the same time] is far less difficult than comparing people that lived in different eras.

No, Lightsnake is absolutely correct. If one wishes to question the hierarchies (which, by the way, LFL most certainly makes), then they all come under scrutiny. Ragnos is no longer the most powerful of the Ancient Sith, Yoda the most powerful Jedi prior to Luke, Revan the most powerful of his era, Bane the most powerful of the Brotherhood of Darkness, and Sidious as the most powerful of Bane's Order. You don't get to choose, Nai, to facilitate ascensions of characters you like and stop the ones that you don't.

So? Any other sources to list? Like the DSSB (qoute in it called ambigious by Leland Chee himself - explained in my last posting), the New Essential Guide (written by fallible in-universe historian) or other sources that can be dismantled in the same manner, since the people responsible for the SW:EU don't deal in absolutes? Boring.

The EU does deal in absolutes, Chee's statement to the contrary doesn't nullify the statements made in the various material where one person is proclaimed "the most powerful" of an era, group, order, or empire. Hell, the statement "only the Sith deal in absolutes" is ridiculous beyond imagination since it is also an absolute statement. Contradictions abound. And given that you yourself have labelled Sidious as "the most powerful in history" seems to suggest that these flawed quotes and statements have convinced you.

I'd also like to see where Sidious admitted his inferiority to Yoda. Page number, if possible.

Originally posted by Gideon
No, Lightsnake is absolutely correct. If one wishes to question the hierarchies (which, by the way, LFL most certainly makes), then they all come under scrutiny. Ragnos is no longer the most powerful of the Ancient Sith, Yoda the most powerful Jedi prior to Luke, Revan the most powerful of his era, Bane the most powerful of the Brotherhood of Darkness, and Sidious as the most powerful of Bane's Order. You don't get to choose, Nai, to facilitate ascensions of characters you like and stop the ones that you don't.

Haha, Gideon.
You call that an argument? I hope not. Of course you can question all hierarchies (did I say anything against that by the way? You may want to read what you quote before replying). I simply stated that in some cases it, quite frankly, doesn't make much sense. You could question that Kun is the superior Sith of his time. I'd love to see you making a case for...erm...what other character exactly? Oh.

The EU does deal in absolutes, Chee's statement to the contrary doesn't nullify the statements made in the various material where one person is proclaimed "the most powerful" of an era, group, order, or empire. Hell, the statement "only the Sith deal in absolutes" is ridiculous beyond imagination since it is also an absolute statement. Contradictions abound. And given that you yourself have labelled Sidious as "the most powerful in history" seems to suggest that these flawed quotes and statements have convinced you.

Wow. Have a look, people. When the statements of LFL officials don't match Gideons opinion he starts questioning them. When they do fit his views he usually uses them as absolute proof. Do I see a double-standard there, Escape? Is that your "objective view" on certain topics? Cute.

And Escape. I explained my general approach to debates, strongly linked to my former user title "Advocatus Diaboli", twice to you. Do I have to do it again? I personally consider this a waste of time since you're apparently still not able to get it. But let me put it like that: Even though I might state something or use it as argument, that doesn't mean the point actually fits my personal opinion. I'm not as obsessed with convincing people that I'm absolutely right with what I say like...errr...other people here.

I'd also like to see where Sidious admitted his inferiority to Yoda. Page number, if possible.

Excuse me, Gideon. If you refuse to read, why do you post? I didn't say that Sidious admitted inferiority to Yoda. I said he had some problems with the small fellow. Do you want to argue that? In this case I would have to nail a copy of the RotS DVD on your forehead.

The RoDV related thing I was referring too was when Sidious tells Anakin that he lost to Obi-Wan on Mustafar because the Jedi Master did focus on nothing else but doing the necessary - killing Vader and that they "could have lost everything" if the other Jedi would have done the same. (Something like that - don't have my copy here atm - NOT that this had anything to do with the debate at all *shrugs*).

"I wasn't strong enough to defeat Obiwan."
"No you weren't, so just imagine what Yoda would have done to you."

Originally posted by Borbarad
[B]Haha, Gideon.
You call that an argument? I hope not. Of course you can question all hierarchies (did I say anything against that by the way? You may want to read what you quote before replying). I simply stated that in some cases it, quite frankly, doesn't make much sense. You could question that Kun is the superior Sith of his time. I'd love to see you making a case for...erm...what other character exactly? Oh.

Wow. Have a look, people. When the statements of LFL officials don't match Gideons opinion he starts questioning them. When they do fit his views he usually uses them as absolute proof. Do I see a double-standard there, Escape? Is that your "objective view" on certain topics? Cute.

And Escape. I explained my general approach to debates, strongly linked to my former user title "Advocatus Diaboli", twice to you. Do I have to do it again? I personally consider this a waste of time since you're apparently still not able to get it. But let me put it like that: Even though I might state something or use it as argument, that doesn't mean the point actually fits my personal opinion. I'm not as obsessed with convincing people that I'm absolutely right with what I say like...errr...other people here.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Haha, Gideon.
You call that an argument? I hope not.

I find myself rather curious, Nai; do you copy and paste the same exact insult for each and every argument? This is becoming ridiculous. Each and every time, it's always "harhar this is not an argument!!1!oneone!1!" or "Oh my" or "oh" or some other embarrassing attempt at sarcasm. You abuse the art. Seriously, it's similar to Janus's awe-inspiring dabbling of preschool humor when he claimed Darth Sexy was my girlfriend. Has your time at EoD stunted your ability to engage in decent wordplay?

Of course you can question all hierarchies (did I say anything against that by the way? You may want to read what you quote before replying). I simply stated that in some cases it, quite frankly, doesn't make much sense. You could question that Kun is the superior Sith of his time. I'd love to see you making a case for...erm...what other character exactly? Oh.

That's just the point. We haven't seen each and every Force user in Exar Kun's time, so if we are to truly ignore LFL's "absolutes", then we can question his status as the strongest of his time. Comparing him to other characters, Nai, would only prove that he's stronger than the ones in his era that we've seen. If we ignore absolutes, then Marka Ragnos can be considered to be one of the weaker Ancient Sith, as he hasn't demonstrated any remarkable power or manifestation of the Force. All we have are those absolute statements -- which you're keen on eliminating simply because the phrase "most powerful Sith Lord" has always been used with Sidious and no other.

Wow. Have a look, people. When the statements of LFL officials don't match Gideons opinion he starts questioning them. When they do fit his views he usually uses them as absolute proof. Do I see a double-standard there, Escape? Is that your "objective view" on certain topics? Cute.

My objectivity isn't in question, since it's something that most of the debaters here can agree on. What about yourself, Nai? Hell, your own companion (Janus) has, at one time or another, ridiculed you for fanboyism in regards to Yoda and the prequel trilogy Jedi. Your own e-clique can't even call you objective, where is your vaunted ability? As for LFL and their statements, Lightsnake correctly pointed out that they do and have used absolute statements multiple times in the past, and yet you focus only on the ones regarding Sidious. That is what's cute, Nai. 😉

And Escape. I explained my general approach to debates, strongly linked to my former user title "Advocatus Diaboli", twice to you. Do I have to do it again? I personally consider this a waste of time since you're apparently still not able to get it. But let me put it like that: Even though I might state something or use it as argument, that doesn't mean the point actually fits my personal opinion. I'm not as obsessed with convincing people that I'm absolutely right with what I say like...errr...other people here.

So, you personally don't believe Sidious is the strongest and you're arguing that all the evidence supporting his status is hardly concrete and easily "dismantled" and yet you have no problem proclaiming him as much when you wish to fellate a character you like (Dooku)? Careful, Nai. While I myself am doing an incredible job of making you look like an idiot, you might finish the race for me. And, I've helped formulate arguments based on more evidence and overturned months of fellating the Ancient Sith to the point where you're scrambling on EoD to "not include them in debates" anymore because your entire stance was obliterated here. That is a measurement of how right I am.

Excuse me, Gideon. If you refuse to read, why do you post? I didn't say that Sidious admitted inferiority to Yoda. I said he had some problems with the small fellow. Do you want to argue that? In this case I would have to nail a copy of the RotS DVD on your forehead.

You have a habit of exaggerating, Nai. It's like your favorite statement from Dark Rendezvous how a dark-side-wielding Yoda would "obliterate Sidz in teh blink of an eye!!11!" when the book never says that at all (it says "annihilated"😉. I also recall no such time in RoDV where Sidious admits that he was "lucky" to survive a fight with Yoda. Page number. Get to it.

The RoDV related thing I was referring too was when Sidious tells Anakin that he lost to Obi-Wan on Mustafar because the Jedi Master did focus on nothing else but doing the necessary - killing Vader and that they "could have lost everything" if the other Jedi would have done the same. (Something like that - don't have my copy here atm - NOT that this had anything to do with the debate at all *shrugs*). [/B]

No. Sidious said that if the Jedi weren't so arrogant and self-absorbed, if they were enlightened, then they "might have proven more difficult to topple" and then he goes onto say that "[Vader] and I might have lost everything".

Well, that was certainly fascinating, Nai. Is this the awesome will and intellectual power that you threatened to bring against Darth Sexy? This is your "asskicking"? Your group really has lot its touch, my good friend. So, I'd suggest cracking the books and working on sharpening that impossibly dull wit of yours before coming back for round two. But remember, Nai: surrender is always an option.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It depends on how you define 'his time,' with people like Revan, Traya and Nihilus a mere 40 years later, though.

Given that you started with the respective orders, Kun's "time" would be limited to the rather short time span in which he was DLotS.

Here's an equal issue, though: We can probably agree that Yoda really>All Jedi as of ROTS, and Luke at his peak>Any other Force User period.
While these may be subject to debate, it might not be totally set in stone, but it's the best conclusion to arrive at, given the evidence. If, for instance, GL says something 'absolute,' that just makes it so. While these things could be debated, effectiveness of said debate is...questionable

The point is, Lightsnake, that most of that statements don't even matter in fictional versus fights. The more powerful (force wise) opponent might still get defeated in a lightsaber fight by his (force wise) inferior (see Sidious VS Mace). The superior duellist might be overcome by superior force mastery (see Kas'im VS Bane) or tricks (see Jacen VS Mara Jade).

And the term "most powerful" leads to the question: "To what extend?" Even following that statement and accepting it without question, every other Sith character could - technically - still be 99,99999 % as powerful as Sidious (Vader being the only exception since Lucas stated he's 80 % as powerful as OT Sidious).

And of course the statements we have wouldn't most likely don't even match the impressions we have. Just as example. Lucas stated that Luke (same potential as Anakin) at his full potential, in his vision, is twice as powerful as Sidious. If Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in history, does that mean that Luke at his full potential (let's say he's rather close to it in his actual incarnation) could take it up with any Sith Lord duo (past DE Sith excepted) you might come up with? Do you consider that to be likely? Luke VS Nihilus + DE Sidious - Luke wins hands down by overpowering them both at the same time? Sounds unlikely to me.

Originally posted by Gideon
I find myself rather curious, Nai; do you copy and paste the same exact insult for each and every argument? This is becoming ridiculous. Each and every time, it's always "harhar this is not an argument!!1!oneone!1!" or "Oh my" or "oh" or some other embarrassing attempt at sarcasm. You abuse the art.

Gideon. You're simply not worth the five seconds of time I would need to come up with a new funny statement. So I rather stick with old ones. Saves time and seems to be as effective if you jump on it like a trained monkey does on Bananas. Nice work in the self-dismantle department.

Seriously, it's similar to Janus's awe-inspiring dabbling of preschool humor when he claimed Darth Sexy was my girlfriend. Has your time at EoD stunted your ability to engage in decent wordplay?

Escape. There is a German comment, which matches the situation pretty well. It says "Wenn man keine Ahnung hat, einfach mal die Schnautze halten". Translated this would mean something like "If you don't have any idea what you're talking about, simply shut the **** up". Janus called Darth Sexy your girlfriend because DS used to wear the usertitle "Escape's Girlfriend" (or "Gideons girlfriend"😉 over at EoD. So you might want to blame your sidekick for that.

And engage in a decent wordplay with you, Escape? For what reason? Arguing with people, who compare there own words to "god given fact", seems to be quite a waste of time. I could do more reasonable things - like installing smoke detectors in hell, selling ice-machines at the Northpole or export sand into the Sahara. I think you're getting the picture.

That's just the point. We haven't seen each and every Force user in Exar Kun's time, so if we are to truly ignore LFL's "absolutes", then we can question his status as the strongest of his time. Comparing him to other characters, Nai, would only prove that he's stronger than the ones in his era that we've seen. If we ignore absolutes, then Marka Ragnos can be considered to be one of the weaker Ancient Sith, as he hasn't demonstrated any remarkable power or manifestation of the Force. All we have are those absolute statements -- which you're keen on eliminating simply because the phrase "most powerful Sith Lord" has always been used with Sidious and no other.

Stop putting words in my mouth, Escape.
I didn't question the statement. It was Leland Chee who questioned that this statement refers to actual force power (something different people have told you over and over again as I may add). So stop crying and accept that. Aside of that it doesn't make sense to question the status of certain people if there is no basis to question it. You are familiar with Occam's Razor, right? Use it. Instead of coming back to me with that mindless bullshit over and over again.

If you have a reason to question the status of certain individuals, you can feel free to do so. If there is no reason, it's pointless.

My objectivity isn't in question, since it's something that most of the debaters here can agree on.

Appeal to majority. Logical fallacy. Next please. One should think that you have learned some stuff in your years around here. Doesn't seem to be the case.

What about yourself, Nai? Hell, your own companion (Janus) has, at one time or another, ridiculed you for fanboyism in regards to Yoda and the prequel trilogy Jedi. Your own e-clique can't even call you objective, where is your vaunted ability? As for LFL and their statements, Lightsnake correctly pointed out that they do and have used absolute statements multiple times in the past, and yet you focus only on the ones regarding Sidious. That is what's cute, Nai. 😉

Are you really that dumb, Escape? Good god. I've explained my approach to debates FOUR TIMES to you now, and either you simply ignore it, or you are just too stupid to get a grasp on what I'm saying.

I'll try it for the last time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advocatus_Diaboli
Read that. Carefully. If you don't feel like having understand it after reading it once, do it again. Until it got into your head. When you're finished with that, you might want to get in your head that this is what I usually do. Playing the devil's advocate. And because of that I can just change my personal "opinion" from debate to debate and I don't even have to be objective, Escape (Not that I ever claimed to be objective, unlike you,pal).

So nice way trying to attack something you don't even understand, Escape. Especially in the wonderful way you attempted it. Appeal to majority first, appeal to authority after that and then an ad hominem to finish the work. What a pitiful job for a self-proclaimed "debater" like yourself. Come back to me when you did get some of that...what was it called? Education? Ah yes.

So, you personally don't believe Sidious is the strongest and you're arguing that all the evidence supporting his status is hardly concrete and easily "dismantled" and yet you have no problem proclaiming him as much when you wish to fellate a character you like (Dooku)?

See above. It's getting boring, Escape.

Careful, Nai. While I myself am doing an incredible job of making you look like an idiot, you might finish the race for me. And, I've helped formulate arguments based on more evidence and overturned months of fellating the Ancient Sith to the point where you're scrambling on EoD to "not include them in debates" anymore because your entire stance was obliterated here. That is a measurement of how right I am.

The only thing you do, Escape, is making yourself look like an idiot. And you're doing an incredible job with it, yes. Praising your own supposed debating skills, while constructing arguments that consist of nothing but logical fallacies. Attacking ways to argue you don't understand. That certainly is a testament to your superiority - your superiority in holding yourself up to ridicule that is. Having ego problems recently,pal? I'm not the guy you should attack in order to solve them.

Well, that was certainly fascinating, Nai. Is this the awesome will and intellectual power that you threatened to bring against Darth Sexy? This is your "asskicking"? Your group really has lot its touch, my good friend. So, I'd suggest cracking the books and working on sharpening that impossibly dull wit of yours before coming back for round two. But remember, Nai: surrender is always an option.

Really, Escape. For somebody that is so prone in lecturing people about how bad debating habits they have you're flaming quite well nowadays. Something you recently accused Janus off. Good god.

But okay. See Escape. You suffer from the delusion that I'm debating like you do here. I don't. I don't care about people sharing my opinion (much less people I don't even know) and so I don't care to convince them. I don't care if people oppose me, insult me, praise me or applaud my postings. And because of that you'll always fail to get a grasp on what I'm doing here. The SW VS Forum persona of Nai Fohl / Borbarad is totally seperated from the entity sitting in front of my PC. It's an alter ego. The devil's advocate that argues for the sake of the argument. Nothing else. You, in turn, have to defend yourself, your own views, your arguments because Gideon is a 100 % match of the guy sitting in front of your PC.

See. And that is why you simply can't "win" debates against me. Not in the sense you're playing this game. Best thing you could do is constructing an argument that is beyond any question. An argument that can't be scrutenized. Do you really think that you did ever archieve something like that, Escape? Do you think you did even come close to that?

And until the day you get that into your head, Escape, your situation looks like that: I'm playing an ineffable game of my own devising with you, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players [i.e. you], to being involved in an obscure and complex variant of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you all the rules, only some here and there, and who smiles all the time. Until that day, you will just be able to look like a rather intelligent debater, that has a mind working like a watch, while I have the finger on the button, that makes the watch go "cuckoo" everytime I want.

Because, as we see here, I just have to question your ideas and you instantly start getting personal. Something that, I may remind you, you criticized people like Janus and IKC for. How does it feel turning into the very same thing you always despised, Escape? Good? I'm, of course, glad to know, that people like Janus act as such great models for you, that you simply have to try to emulate them. Although I have to admit, that you're doing a rather poor job with it, given the fun-level of your usual comments pales in comparison to stuff that Janus or Illustrious used to unleash into this forum here.

Now you can go on with the fun-stuff and attempt to make me look like an idiot. I have a soft spot for that kind of cheap entertainment. Or you might want to attempt something that would give you a greater chance of success. Like trying to nail jelly onto a wall.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Gideon. You're simply not worth the five seconds of time I would need to come up with a new funny statement. So I rather stick with old ones. Saves time and seems to be as effective if you jump on it like a trained monkey does on Bananas. Nice work in the self-dismantle department.

Nai, we can go back and forth all day with the "self-ownage!!1!" claims, you and I accusing one another of owning ourselves, and that's all well and good. But those accusations fail to alter reality; in reality, you're the one who exaggerates and fabricates quotes, distorting them for your own purposes (isn't it ironic how you, in this entire diatribe, fail to respond or consent to the little mini-argument about Sidious's statement in Rise of Darth Vader? People notice that, Nai); in reality, you're the one who tries to use the devil's advocate method as a shield for the times when your stance on an argument is decimated; in reality, you're the one who nitpicks statements issued by Leeland Chee in an attempt to save credibility for the characters that you like. And, perhaps now you'll see why no one around here adheres to your bullshit.

By the way, it's cute how you won't waste "five seconds" of time to summon new comedic material, yet you'll take several minutes to participate in what you consider to be a "flawed" argument. And you wish to lecture about self-ownage? I guess you could, since you're seemingly so familiar with the concept.

Escape. There is a German comment, which matches the situation pretty well. It says "Wenn man keine Ahnung hat, einfach mal die Schnautze halten". Translated this would mean something like "If you don't have any idea what you're talking about, simply shut the **** up". Janus called Darth Sexy your girlfriend because DS used to wear the usertitle "Escape's Girlfriend" (or "Gideons girlfriend"😉 over at EoD. So you might want to blame your sidekick for that.

According to my sidekick (we recently suffered a break-up), you can thank EoD's marvelously incompetent staff for that little attempt at humor. Really, Nai, why the hell would Darth Sexy change his usertitle to that when he is seemingly affronted by the idea? Perhaps you could exchange "self ownage" for "common sense", because it stands to reason since you're so proficient with the former, you'll wield some expertise in the latter.

And engage in a decent wordplay with you, Escape? For what reason? Arguing with people, who compare there own words to "god given fact", seems to be quite a waste of time. I could do more reasonable things - like installing smoke detectors in hell, selling ice-machines at the Northpole or export sand into the Sahara. I think you're getting the picture.

Why not? You take the time to keep coming back, posting and hacking away, like some mentally handicapped child given a plastic sword. This would be another example of you owning yourself. You've been responding, each and every time, coming back like an obedient pet. I'm certainly a narcissist, but even I don't let my ego get dangled in front of me like a lure. Something, perhaps, that you need to get under control?

Appeal to majority. Logical fallacy. Next please. One should think that you have learned some stuff in your years around here. Doesn't seem to be the case.

If only we were debating my objectivity... the fact is that I have more of a reputation for it than you. By the way, how is the view of your intestines, since your head is so neatly and efficiently crammed up your ass?

Are you really that dumb, Escape? Good god. I've explained my approach to debates FOUR TIMES to you now, and either you simply ignore it, or you are just too stupid to get a grasp on what I'm saying.

Well, ignorance and stupidity aren't traits to which I've been accredited with. Then again, the only other constant here is you, a person with an unflattering history of atrocities that you call "arguments" and failed conclusions (we've gone from the amusing "Sidiuz sux!! LOL11!!1!" to the Gideon-testified "Sidious is the strongest Sith in history" in just a few short years). So, I'd say that you're failing to explain and function properly.

I'll try it for the last time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advocatus_Diaboli
Read that. Carefully. If you don't feel like having understand it after reading it once, do it again. Until it got into your head. When you're finished with that, you might want to get in your head that this is what I usually do. Playing the devil's advocate. And because of that I can just change my personal "opinion" from debate to debate and I don't even have to be objective, Escape (Not that I ever claimed to be objective, unlike you,pal).

Gee, sounds a hell of a lot like "when my ass gets proven wrong, I can just claim I was playing the Devil's advocate in an attempt to save myself some egocrushing embarrassment". Why, aren't you clever? Given your distinct lack of skill, it still might have worked, if you weren't surrounded by people who see through it.

So nice way trying to attack something you don't even understand, Escape. Especially in the wonderful way you attempted it. Appeal to majority first, appeal to authority after that and then an ad hominem to finish the work. What a pitiful job for a self-proclaimed "debater" like yourself. Come back to me when you did get some of that...what was it called? Education? Ah yes.

Playing victim, again? "Ad hominem!!11lololol!!11" -- almost as if you don't deal in it yourself. Deluded and hypocritical. Freud would have a field day with you, Nai.

See above. It's getting boring, Escape.

And yet you're still compelled to post and respond to every statement I make. If this is boredom and this is how you treat it, I suppose you also ought to acquire a life along with common sense. But, I don't suspect that you will. I suspect that you'll keep coming back each and every single time. You're like some online frisbee.

Really, Escape. For somebody that is so prone in lecturing people about how bad debating habits they have you're flaming quite well nowadays. Something you recently accused Janus off. Good god.

What can I say? I thought to myself: 'what would really embarrass them?' And the answer came to me: play their game and beat them at it. We're playing and the score's not looking so hot for you. 😛

But okay. See Escape. You suffer from the delusion that I'm debating like you do here. I don't. I don't care about people sharing my opinion (much less people I don't even know) and so I don't care to convince them. I don't care if people oppose me, insult me, praise me or applaud my postings. And because of that you'll always fail to get a grasp on what I'm doing here. The SW VS Forum persona of Nai Fohl / Borbarad is totally seperated from the entity sitting in front of my PC. It's an alter ego. The devil's advocate that argues for the sake of the argument. Nothing else. You, in turn, have to defend yourself, your own views, your arguments because Gideon is a 100 % match of the guy sitting in front of your PC.

Nice monologue, Nai. Is this the sort've thing you tell yourself when you're playing Dungeons&Dragons, wasting away as a twenty-something-year-old with absolutely no social life? I have to say, as far as "ominous, cool monologues" go, this is pretty good.

See. And that is why you simply can't "win" debates against me. Not in the sense you're playing this game. Best thing you could do is constructing an argument that is beyond any question. An argument that can't be scrutenized. Do you really think that you did ever archieve something like that, Escape? Do you think you did even come close to that?

...Oh, and getting better with the paragraph. I bet you're playing some ominous, cool music to set the mood. Candles lit, too, probably. Given the skill of this monologue, I bet it's been practiced. You sly dog, have you been standing in front of the mirror again, practicing these little speeches?

And until the day you get that into your head, Escape, your situation looks like that: I'm playing an ineffable game of my own devising with you, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players [i.e. you], to being involved in an obscure and complex variant of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you all the rules, only some here and there, and who smiles all the time. Until that day, you will just be able to look like a rather intelligent debater, that has a mind working like a watch, while I have the finger on the button, that makes the watch go "cuckoo" everytime I want.

"A rather intelligent debater"? Flattery gets you nowhere, and I have to detract points from the monologue for contradicting yourself here, but it's still pretty good.

Because, as we see here, I just have to question your ideas and you instantly start getting personal. Something that, I may remind you, you criticized people like Janus and IKC for. How does it feel turning into the very same thing you always despised, Escape? Good? I'm, of course, glad to know, that people like Janus act as such great models for you, that you simply have to try to emulate them. Although I have to admit, that you're doing a rather poor job with it, given the fun-level of your usual comments pales in comparison to stuff that Janus or Illustrious used to unleash into this forum here.

Uh-oh. Minus more points for the "personal" bit. I mean, hell, you're just speculating now, and as we've seen, perception isn't one of your strong suits.

Now you can go on with the fun-stuff and attempt to make me look like an idiot. I have a soft spot for that kind of cheap entertainment. Or you might want to attempt something that would give you a greater chance of success. Like trying to nail jelly onto a wall.

...And minus a few more for the "nail jelly to the wall" comment. That is a damn poor way to end your, otherwise, very cool, ominous monologue. You'll be a real hit at the next D&D meeting, Nai.

Now, in the meantime, I once again must question your ability to "kick ass". Is this all you've got? The cool, ominous monologue didn't save the rest of your argument, Nai. And just remember: you can claim you're manipulating me and you've got your finger on the button to my "watch", but I'm the one whom you bash and claim to be "not worth" your precious time, and yet you still respond. Just like I thought. Predictable.

Take some time to work on your thoughts before round three, Nai. At the rate you're going, I don't think you'll make it.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Given that you started with the respective orders, Kun's "time" would be limited to the rather short time span in which he was DLotS.

And of course the statements we have wouldn't most likely don't even match the impressions we have. Just as example. Lucas stated that Luke (same potential as Anakin) at his full potential, in his vision, is twice as powerful as Sidious. If Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in history, does that mean that Luke at his full potential (let's say he's rather close to it in his actual incarnation) could take it up with any Sith Lord duo (past DE Sith excepted) you might come up with? Do you consider that to be likely? Luke VS Nihilus + DE Sidious - Luke wins hands down by overpowering them both at the same time? Sounds unlikely to me.

Originally posted by Gideon
Nai, we can go back and forth all day with the "self-ownage!!1!" claims, you and I accusing one another of owning ourselves, and that's all well and good. But those accusations fail to alter reality; in reality, you're the one who exaggerates and fabricates quotes, distorting them for your own purposes (isn't it ironic how you, in this entire diatribe, fail to respond or consent to the little mini-argument about Sidious's statement in Rise of Darth Vader? People notice that, Nai); in reality, you're the one who tries to use the devil's advocate method as a shield for the times when your stance on an argument is decimated; in reality, you're the one who nitpicks statements issued by Leeland Chee in an attempt to save credibility for the characters that you like. And, perhaps now you'll see why no one around here adheres to your bullshit.

Tsss...
Coming to the reality checks, Gideon, you might want to read once more what I'm posting. Twisting words in order to have them fit your cute view of the world doesn't help you much.

a) I said that I didn't have the source right in front of me. The quote was given. I was wrong. So I decided to drop the point. Are we playing "debate for dummies" now, where I have to explain everything I'm doing? If you aren't smart enough to follow a debate unless people are handing you images, picturing how it was going, you might want to stay out of a forum.

b) What argument, Escape? Excuse me. How often did you see me acting rather than reacting around here? If I give my personal opinion, which happens rarely enough around here, I almost always start with a sentence like. "I guess..." or "That's debateable. Imho..." and so on. You might realize that, once you start to read stuff before replying to it.

c) I nitpick statements to save whom exactly, Escape? You may want to read my reply to Lightsnake and come to the realization that everything you might toss into the ring for Sidious is a complete waste in terms of VS fights. Which is, actually, what this forum is about - in case you did forget that.

d) Repeating your appeals to the majority ("people notice that", "nobody adheres to you"😉 neither makes them less fallacious nor does it impress me at all.

By the way, it's cute how you won't waste "five seconds" of time to summon new comedic material, yet you'll take several minutes to participate in what you consider to be a "flawed" argument. And you wish to lecture about self-ownage? I guess you could, since you're seemingly so familiar with the concept.

I guess you should, just sometimes, think before you're posting. That I don't waste five seconds to do X naturally doesn't mean that I won't waste a longer amount of time to perform Y. Thanks for trying to take it up with logic and lose once more, Escape. Same precedure as every post, I guess.

According to my sidekick (we recently suffered a break-up), you can thank EoD's marvelously incompetent staff for that little attempt at humor. Really, Nai, why the hell would Darth Sexy change his usertitle to that when he is seemingly affronted by the idea? Perhaps you could exchange "self ownage" for "common sense", because it stands to reason since you're so proficient with the former, you'll wield some expertise in the latter.

Escape. Your attempt to worm out of the fact that you accused Janus for a bad taste in terms of humor, when he just used a term coined by Darth Sexy to descripe Darth Sexy, aren't working. Was that you who attempted to give me a lecture on how I'm not willing to admit I did something wrong just a few paragraphs ago? Quite nice from somebody who seemingly fails his own standards.

Why not? You take the time to keep coming back, posting and hacking away, like some mentally handicapped child given a plastic sword. This would be another example of you owning yourself. You've been responding, each and every time, coming back like an obedient pet. I'm certainly a narcissist, but even I don't let my ego get dangled in front of me like a lure. Something, perhaps, that you need to get under control?

I'm rather sure you're familiar with how it looks like when a mentally handicapped child with a plastic sword is hacking away. That's at least something you can observe on a daily basis doing SW roleplay in front of your mirror. Aside of that I don't think we should discuss parts of me that are "dangling" in front of myself. We have non-adults reading here and aside of that I don't want you to die because of blank astonishment.

If only we were debating my objectivity... the fact is that I have more of a reputation for it than you. By the way, how is the view of your intestines, since your head is so neatly and efficiently crammed up your ass?

Of course we aren't debating your objectivity. Because there is nothing to debate in this case. And of course you have a great reputation for your objectivity here, Escape. But quite frankly: The moon doesn't care much about the fact, that the wolf howling at it has a nice reputation among the bugs crawling around in the forrest.

Well, ignorance and stupidity aren't traits to which I've been accredited with.

Then I have to say you're doing quite a nice job using them - even as an amateur...

Then again, the only other constant here is you, a person with an unflattering history of atrocities that you call "arguments" and failed conclusions (we've gone from the amusing "Sidiuz sux!! LOL11!!1!" to the Gideon-testified "Sidious is the strongest Sith in history" in just a few short years). So, I'd say that you're failing to explain and function properly.

...while you do use lies and willful missinterpretations rather well, just to have something to say at all. Not only that I never stated that "Sidious sux" (I beg to differ). Nope. One must also be rather amused by the fact that you still go "You've accepted that Sidious is the strongest Sith in history" when I opposed that statement multiple times in the very same thread. So what happend to your brain, Escape. Car accident? Or were you lobotomized and things, how ridiculous that might sound, actually got better?

Gee, sounds a hell of a lot like "when my ass gets proven wrong, I can just claim I was playing the Devil's advocate in an attempt to save myself some egocrushing embarrassment". Why, aren't you clever? Given your distinct lack of skill, it still might have worked, if you weren't surrounded by people who see through it.

Right, Escape. I just keep switching my opinion in order to oppose people on a daily routine (even arguing contradicting positions on different threads at the same time) because [insert your pityful attempt for an explanation here]. And of course I'm doing that because I'm constantly owned here in debates by...oh...constant lack of candidates in that department.

Playing victim, again? "Ad hominem!!11lololol!!11" -- almost as if you don't deal in it yourself. Deluded and hypocritical. Freud would have a field day with you, Nai.

Talking out of your ass again, Escape? Do I run around on the board and call other people out for "flaming" usually? No? WTF? Can it be that I just placed this statement there because you:
a) Can't keep calm in debates
b) Bash people because they bash other people, while apparently thinking you're doing that with some sort of superior morality.

Again failing to get a grasp on the statements your commenting on? Of course Freud could have a field day with me, while you would be casted aside, as psychoanalysis would require a patient having a brain in the first place. A requirement you apparently don't fit.

And yet you're still compelled to post and respond to every statement I make. If this is boredom and this is how you treat it, I suppose you also ought to acquire a life along with common sense. But, I don't suspect that you will. I suspect that you'll keep coming back each and every single time. You're like some online frisbee.

Get yourself a sheet of paper and a pencil, Escape. Now look at what that quote was referring to. Then have a second look on your response. Doesn't make much sense. But thanks anyway.

I thought to myself:

Oh. Quit with the lies already. You can't really have thought anything before hitting the reply button, Escape.

'what would really embarrass them?' And the answer came to me: play their game and beat them at it. We're playing and the score's not looking so hot for you. 😛

I have to admit. That's the best excuse for developing into an arrogant ass I've came across so far. On the other handside you've just torpeded your own credibility with that now. Nice work. Keep it up.

Nice monologue, Nai. Is this the sort've thing you tell yourself when you're playing Dungeons&Dragons, wasting away as a twenty-something-year-old with absolutely no social life? I have to say, as far as "ominous, cool monologues" go, this is pretty good.

Hey. This was absolute ownage, Escape. If I, to a certain extend, wouldn't get paid for actually having a social life this would have hurt me badly. But of course such wonderful speculations always fall back on the one who made them. So having no social live outside of an SW versus board, that you're so obsessed with, only online girlfriends (although I don't see Advent posting much at the moment) and having no job (you just needed all that time to have this cool "king of the ring" thing going on here, I know) - do you enjoy that lifestyle?

...Oh, and getting better with the paragraph. I bet you're playing some ominous, cool music to set the mood. Candles lit, too, probably. Given the skill of this monologue, I bet it's been practiced. You sly dog, have you been standing in front of the mirror again, practicing these little speeches?

Nope. Not really. You confuse me with that other world-famous dude that used to rule Germany between 1933 and 1945. It's just general training, mainly based on my job.

"A rather intelligent debater"? Flattery gets you nowhere, and I have to detract points from the monologue for contradicting yourself here, but it's still pretty good.

Ah. Sorry that I do have to intervene here. But that judgement is quite incorrect. That I question your arguments and interpretation of certain statements doesn't mean I can't respect you as person in the same place. Actually I can also keep insulting you, while still having respect for you to a certain extend. Hence it sometimes hurts that you, unlike Lightsnake, can't cope with that sort of mindset.

Uh-oh. Minus more points for the "personal" bit. I mean, hell, you're just speculating now, and as we've seen, perception isn't one of your strong suits.

Pfft. Now you're copying my "uh-oh", Escape, while you labeled that as one of the "ridiculous" bits that I "copy and paste into every argument". Not so smart. Aside of that, stating the obvious doesn't qualify as speculation, especially since you've admitted that I was perfectly right with that statement some paragraphs earlier.

Now, in the meantime, I once again must question your ability to "kick ass". Is this all you've got? The cool, ominous monologue didn't save the rest of your argument, Nai. And just remember: you can claim you're manipulating me and you've got your finger on the button to my "watch", but I'm the one whom you bash and claim to be "not worth" your precious time, and yet you still respond. Just like I thought. Predictable.

Geez, Escape. It's 7 a.m. over here and I haven't slept. Aside of that I can't recall anouncing to "kick your ass" somewhere.

And "manipulating"? Cute. If I want to manipulate somebody, I'd rather buy myself a (stupid) dog. "Manipulation" would imply that the effect generated by a certain action is actually wanted by the person that acts. Which would mean that I'm wanting you to waste your time typing stuff like this into this forum. Hmm. Let me think about that. No. My lastname isn't "De Sade" so I guess I'm not "manipulating" here. I'm just pressing the "do not push" button when knowing what will happen. And just keep it up, because I find it amusing.

Take some time to work on your thoughts before round three, Nai. At the rate you're going, I don't think you'll make it.

I know that I'm not going to make it...down to your level. You might want to wait down there until I'm home from work. I will search for my shovel and start digging immediately then. Thinking about that: We have a coal mine just 20 kilometres away from here. If I start with the digging down there we might meet...hmm...30 or 40 years in the future.

And you have already lost, Escape. You have admitted that I do actually have thoughts to work on, which means I'm superior to you already. Bad mistake.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Here's where we enter into murky territory: Kun is DLOTS for 6 months and that's it. When we say 'his time,' we can also mean the KOTOR era, which can go through to the Mando wars and to the end of Nihilus's time when the Jedi were finally able to begin rebuilding.

Well. Stretching the era you're referring to like that, you could of course question if Nihilus, Traya, Revan, Malak or Sion would be able to take Exar Kun. Don't see anything speaking against that.

What, however, is more likely though. If we have a 'force only' or all out fight? Should we rather not say the more powerful is the one more likely to win?

As long as "more powerful" can mean a difference in power anywhere between 0.000000000001 and infinite percent, judging the outcome of fights like that is pretty short-sighted. Aside of that you'd still have the problem that certain people do possess certain techniques. Can Sidious withstand a force drain (Nihilus, Traya) for example if he doesn't know what will be coming (or can he do it at all)? Can Kun's amulet blasts (if you recall them as force abilities) be deflected? Does the statement refer to actual power of an individual meaning that people possessing certain Sith artifacts (amulets that boost their power and so on) could still overpower a being that is, naturally, stronger than them in the ways of the force.

Yes. That's why we clarify in the matches we put on the board.

Yes. But there is always the "all out fight" option.

But is that not also a clear, set in stone, absolute?

It is, if you accept that Lucas words, no matter how stupid, become G-Canon instantly. The guy does change his opinion more of than some people change their pants. And because of that his statements were also questioned here in the past.

And that ambiguity does mean something, too. If nothing is to put them by that .00001 percent, we are left with an advantage for the more powerful, nevermind how slight. Or equal. Or we can turn it on to who has more knowledge, or one of a dozen things.

See above. Certain techniques can negate an advantage in terms of power. And what would .000001 percent superiority do in a real fight?

A problem, then....what if our impressions don't match facts?

In general I prefer to judge power based on showings rather then comments from third-party sources.

If Luke was seriously aiming to kill, he could very likely take any Sith duo around. When it comes to measuring power, Luke is that high tier for a reason, and don't forget, Nai, once upon a time, common consensus was Marka Ragnos could solo Luke, Palpatine, Nihilus and possibly Exar Kun at once.

Err...nope.
The common consensus was, afaik, that Ragnos might be able to do so given that we don't know much about him despite that he was apparently quite powerful and apparently had quite some knowledge up his sleeve. But that's like almost everything else, just in the realm of speculation.

Just as example. If you want to suggest that Ragnos is capable of using the force drain to the same extend Nihilus can and if you accept the statement that there is no defence against that ability, a user of said ability can generally wipe out almost any given number of opponents [since Nihilus used that ability to instantly kill a planet filled with force users].

Aside of that: Because I think something is unlikely doesn't mean that it won't happen. In general every force user that did exhibit instakill abilities can take X opponents at once. Theoretically.

Hahaha...people here are still the same I see. 😆

Aww, Nai, you've sacrificed sleep to come back and respond to me. I'm delighted, and honored that, despite all this, you think I'm an intelligent debater. You make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

mace shows absolutely nothing force wise, only saber wise. so:
force:traya
saber:mace
all out: traya

there you go. as for you anti-kreia 'tards out there:

spoilers contained. if you have not played kotor 2, read no further.
When the truth was revealed—that the Exile had unconsciously deafened herself to the Force in order to survive, as opposed to being cut off from it by the Jedi Council as the Exile previously believed—Kreia confronted the reassembled Jedi Council in the ruins of the Jedi Enclave on Dantooine. As the Jedi Masters—Vrook Lamar, Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell—actually tried to strip the Force from the Exile, whom they believed to be a wound in the Force and a danger that could lure the Sith—Kreia drained their connection to the force, killing them, and once again assumed her Sith identity.[4]

so... the jedi were actually cut from the force

The Exile, still under her stasis state established by the Masters, was left helpless as Kreia used the dark power Force Drain to put the Jedi Masters through the same suffering the Exile had felt on Malachor V, leaving them not only dead, but void of the Force.
tadaaa there you go...

yes, they are both from wookiepedia, but they are both pretty accurate. did i mention kreia has far more experience? i will give mace his due and say he would beat almost anyone in a saber duel.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
mace shows absolutely nothing force wise, only saber wise. so:

so did katarn. i dont see you bowing down and kissing his toes. so did yoda. i am sure many others could have done it as well. its just, how often does one find 100 tons of rock falling on his head? and yes, i am possitive that kreia could do some powerful tk as well if given the opportunity.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
so did katarn. i dont see you bowing down and kissing his toes. so did yoda.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

i am sure many others could have done it as well.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

its just, how often does one find 100 tons of rock falling on his head?

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

and yes, i am possitive that kreia could do some powerful tk as well if given the opportunity.

1. i would like a little proof about holding 100 tons of rock up with tk. maybe a pannel scan or a wookiepedia link.... substantiate your crap...

2. you seem to underestimate kmc's number 1 philosophy (besides all must bow to njo luke) size matters not!!1!!111 (also the reason studies have found that kmc has excessive male virginity over all other forums on the internet)

wookiepedia: While training him on Dagobah, Yoda told Luke Skywalker that the size/weight of an object is only relevant in the mind of the practitioner, and that once the mental distinction about an object's size can be let go of, objects of any size can be moved. Yoda demonstrated this by lifting Luke's X-wing out of the swamp.

3. here are your names: dooku, darth vader's valet (and/or secret apprentice?), yoda, luke, vader, nihilus, jax, revan, vader's secret apprentice and in fact kreia could use telekenesis to an astonishing level.

4. your overconfidence in insults is your weakness. kreia actually DID use telekinesis to an unprecidented level. implementing tk to wield 3 lightsabers without the use of her hands is in fact amaizing telekenesis. the multitasking and intellect of the mind required to controll 3 lightsabers to fight at one time with the precision needed to challenge the exile would be quite a task. comparing such a task to holding up 100 tons would be like comparing makashi to juyo.

Kreia was a master of telekinetic lightsaber combat, which allowed her to wield three or more lightsabers in combat, holding each of them aloft with the Force, and having them fight with a will of their own[19].

substantiate that mace held 100s of tons of rock with the force. even if you do, kreia still shows at least the same ability with her tk lightsaber combat.