mace vs traya

Originally posted by Borbarad
Tsss...
Coming to the reality checks, Gideon, you might want to read once more what I'm posting. Twisting words in order to have them fit your cute view of the world doesn't help you much.

a) I said that I didn't have the source right in front of me. The quote was given. I was wrong. So I decided to drop the point. Are we playing "debate for dummies" now, where I have to explain everything I'm doing? If you aren't smart enough to follow a debate unless people are handing you images, picturing how it was going, you might want to stay out of a forum.

b) What argument, Escape? Excuse me. How often did you see me acting rather than reacting around here? If I give my personal opinion, which happens rarely enough around here, I almost always start with a sentence like. "I guess..." or "That's debateable. Imho..." and so on. You might realize that, once you start to read stuff before replying to it.

c) I nitpick statements to save whom exactly, Escape? You may want to read my reply to Lightsnake and come to the realization that everything you might toss into the ring for Sidious is a complete waste in terms of VS fights. Which is, actually, what this forum is about - in case you did forget that.

d) Repeating your appeals to the majority ("people notice that", "nobody adheres to you"😉 neither makes them less fallacious nor does it impress me at all.

I guess you should, just sometimes, think before you're posting. That I don't waste five seconds to do X naturally doesn't mean that I won't waste a longer amount of time to perform Y. Thanks for trying to take it up with logic and lose once more, Escape. Same precedure as every post, I guess.

Escape. Your attempt to worm out of the fact that you accused Janus for a bad taste in terms of humor, when he just used a term coined by Darth Sexy to descripe Darth Sexy, aren't working. Was that you who attempted to give me a lecture on how I'm not willing to admit I did something wrong just a few paragraphs ago? Quite nice from somebody who seemingly fails his own standards.

I'm rather sure you're familiar with how it looks like when a mentally handicapped child with a plastic sword is hacking away. That's at least something you can observe on a daily basis doing SW roleplay in front of your mirror. Aside of that I don't think we should discuss parts of me that are "dangling" in front of myself. We have non-adults reading here and aside of that I don't want you to die because of blank astonishment.

Of course we aren't debating your objectivity. Because there is nothing to debate in this case. And of course you have a great reputation for your objectivity here, Escape. But quite frankly: The moon doesn't care much about the fact, that the wolf howling at it has a nice reputation among the bugs crawling around in the forrest.

Then I have to say you're doing quite a nice job using them - even as an amateur...

...while you do use lies and willful missinterpretations rather well, just to have something to say at all. Not only that I never stated that "Sidious sux" (I beg to differ). Nope. One must also be rather amused by the fact that you still go "You've accepted that Sidious is the strongest Sith in history" when I opposed that statement multiple times in the very same thread. So what happend to your brain, Escape. Car accident? Or were you lobotomized and things, how ridiculous that might sound, actually got better?

Right, Escape. I just keep switching my opinion in order to oppose people on a daily routine (even arguing contradicting positions on different threads at the same time) because [insert your pityful attempt for an explanation here]. And of course I'm doing that because I'm constantly owned here in debates by...oh...constant lack of candidates in that department.

Talking out of your ass again, Escape? Do I run around on the board and call other people out for "flaming" usually? No? WTF? Can it be that I just placed this statement there because you:
a) Can't keep calm in debates
b) Bash people because they bash other people, while apparently thinking you're doing that with some sort of superior morality.

Again failing to get a grasp on the statements your commenting on? Of course Freud could have a field day with me, while you would be casted aside, as psychoanalysis would require a patient having a brain in the first place. A requirement you apparently don't fit.

Get yourself a sheet of paper and a pencil, Escape. Now look at what that quote was referring to. Then have a second look on your response. Doesn't make much sense. But thanks anyway.

Oh. Quit with the lies already. You can't really have thought anything before hitting the reply button, Escape.

I have to admit. That's the best excuse for developing into an arrogant ass I've came across so far. On the other handside you've just torpeded your own credibility with that now. Nice work. Keep it up.

Hey. This was absolute ownage, Escape. If I, to a certain extend, wouldn't get paid for actually having a social life this would have hurt me badly. But of course such wonderful speculations always fall back on the one who made them. So having no social live outside of an SW versus board, that you're so obsessed with, only online girlfriends (although I don't see Advent posting much at the moment) and having no job (you just needed all that time to have this cool "king of the ring" thing going on here, I know) - do you enjoy that lifestyle?

Nope. Not really. You confuse me with that other world-famous dude that used to rule Germany between 1933 and 1945. It's just general training, mainly based on my job.

Ah. Sorry that I do have to intervene here. But that judgement is quite incorrect. That I question your arguments and interpretation of certain statements doesn't mean I can't respect you as person in the same place. Actually I can also keep insulting you, while still having respect for you to a certain extend. Hence it sometimes hurts that you, unlike Lightsnake, can't cope with that sort of mindset.

Pfft. Now you're copying my "uh-oh", Escape, while you labeled that as one of the "ridiculous" bits that I "copy and paste into every argument". Not so smart. Aside of that, stating the obvious doesn't qualify as speculation, especially since you've admitted that I was perfectly right with that statement some paragraphs earlier.

Geez, Escape. It's 7 a.m. over here and I haven't slept. Aside of that I can't recall anouncing to "kick your ass" somewhere.

And "manipulating"? Cute. If I want to manipulate somebody, I'd rather buy myself a (stupid) dog. "Manipulation" would imply that the effect generated by a certain action is actually wanted by the person that acts. Which would mean that I'm wanting you to waste your time typing stuff like this into this forum. Hmm. Let me think about that. No. My lastname isn't "De Sade" so I guess I'm not "manipulating" here. I'm just pressing the "do not push" button when knowing what will happen. And just keep it up, because I find it amusing.

I know that I'm not going to make it...down to your level. You might want to wait down there until I'm home from work. I will search for my shovel and start digging immediately then. Thinking about that: We have a coal mine just 20 kilometres away from here. If I start with the digging down there we might meet...hmm...30 or 40 years in the future.

And you have already lost, Escape. You have admitted that I do actually have thoughts to work on, which means I'm superior to you already. Bad mistake.

Nai, that was... just wonderful. Best I've seen in a long while.

Weird, Nai's done the exact same to you..

all i really see are some insults.

dont see much debating.

People here just have alot of anger issues and alot of history. And the lack of debating is due to the lack of argument, everyone knows that Traya would cream Windu.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
People here just have [b]alot of anger issues and alot of history. And the lack of debating is due to the lack of argument, everyone knows that Traya would cream Windu. [/B]

Mace is hardly a child with the Force, and his potential and raw power was pretty amazing, but Traya killed and maimed Jedi masters with relative ease. Even RotS Sidious couldn't claim to have killed three jedi masters in a heartbeat using his Force powers. The height of Mace Windu's force resistance is the basic resistance to Force Tk (Which can be overridden either by surprise or by superior TK) or blocking Sith Lightning (Which Traya apparently has not used in a cutscene). I don't see how either of those are going to help him when she force drains him.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Mace is hardly a child with the Force, and his potential and raw power was pretty amazing, but Traya killed and maimed Jedi masters with relative ease. Even RotS Sidious couldn't claim to have killed three jedi masters in a heartbeat using his Force powers. The height of Mace Windu's force resistance is the basic resistance to Force Tk (Which can be overridden either by surprise or by superior TK) or blocking Sith Lightning (Which Traya apparently has not used in a cutscene). I don't see how either of those are going to help him when she force drains him.

Anyways i found the quote regarding windu lifting hundreds of tons of rock in shatterpoint but because it came from nebaris, i would like to request if you can confirm it

:The dirt cliff shook, buckled, and collapsed. With a subterranean roar that buried even the thunder of the eruption and the clamor of the steamcrawler's laboring engine, hundreds of tons of dirt and rock poured into the river of lava...Nearly all his concentration stayed submerged in the Force, spread throughout the slide, using a wide-focus Force grip to stabilize the rubble while he scrambled down to the steamcrawler's roof.

In all honesty i don't think kreias drain would kill mace that quickly, because if it would have killed even very powerful force users easily, why did she not use it when nihilus and sion turned against her or against the exile?

Originally posted by Ivalice
True, but the thing is do those 3 jedi masters combat prowess compare to that of mace windu?

Anyways i found the quote regarding windu lifting hundreds of tons of rock in shatterpoint but because it came from nebaris, i would like to request if you can confirm it

:The dirt cliff shook, buckled, and collapsed. With a subterranean roar that buried even the thunder of the eruption and the clamor of the steamcrawler's laboring engine, [b]hundreds of tons of dirt and rock poured into the river of lava...Nearly all his concentration stayed submerged in the Force, spread throughout the slide, using a wide-focus Force grip to stabilize the rubble while he scrambled down to the steamcrawler's roof.

In all honesty i don't think kreias drain would kill mace that quickly, because if it would have killed even very powerful force users easily, why did she not use it when nihilus and sion turned against her or against the exile? [/B]

wookiepedia said something about him riding an avalanche weighing hundreds of tons. however, this is something quite different from holding back an avalanche weighing hundreds of tons.

:His mastery of the Force was also extensive, augmented by his considerable power. Mace was able to perform incredible feats, such as "riding" a landslide of rock and earth weighing hundreds of tons.

maybe he steered it or something but thats not the same as holding up 100 tons as you said before.

and... why did you debate for a quote you got from nebaris?

once again, you seem to think since we used something as an example of her power, we are implying, she is going to replicate that power in the fight. if she did use the force drain, however, you would have very little to show (aside from reputation) that mace would survive it. and we have very little to show (aside from reputation) that it would kill him.
so lets not debate this topic because it will be a constant throwing of uncanon and irrelevant data.

the fact that has been confirmed multiple times by different debators then I is that Kreia would tool him in the force, mace would win with sabers because, this is where mace's imense talents lie, and where the source of all of his reputation (and fanboyism) with everyone comes from...

Originally posted by Ivalice
True, but the thing is do those 3 jedi masters combat prowess compare to that of mace windu?

Anyways i found the quote regarding windu lifting hundreds of tons of rock in shatterpoint but because it came from nebaris, i would like to request if you can confirm it

:The dirt cliff shook, buckled, and collapsed. With a subterranean roar that buried even the thunder of the eruption and the clamor of the steamcrawler's laboring engine, [b]hundreds of tons of dirt and rock poured into the river of lava...Nearly all his concentration stayed submerged in the Force, spread throughout the slide, using a wide-focus Force grip to stabilize the rubble while he scrambled down to the steamcrawler's roof.

In all honesty i don't think kreias drain would kill mace that quickly, because if it would have killed even very powerful force users easily, why did she not use it when nihilus and sion turned against her or against the exile? [/B]

1. LK is actually almost right, Mace used the Force to "ride" the landslide, which is impressive, but not exactly going to win a fight. Yoda can levitate a crane and an X-Wing, but he cannot win a fight solely because of that.

2. Force TK, despite any apparent level of power, is a universal trait. Mace Windu hasn't shown two things: sufficient Force defense against fatal force drain; and any real showings against someone of Traya's level in a Force fight.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
1. LK is actually almost right, Mace used the Force to "ride" the landslide, which is impressive, but not exactly going to win a fight. Yoda can levitate a crane and an X-Wing, but he cannot win a fight solely because of that.

2. Force TK, despite any apparent level of power, is a universal trait. Mace Windu hasn't shown two things: sufficient Force defense against fatal force drain; and any real showings against someone of Traya's level in a Force fight.

I'm almost right?

YAY

Originally posted by Janus Marius
1. LK is actually almost right, Mace used the Force to "ride" the landslide, which is impressive, but not exactly going to win a fight. Yoda can levitate a crane and an X-Wing, but he cannot win a fight solely because of that.

2. Force TK, despite any apparent level of power, is a universal trait. Mace Windu hasn't shown two things: sufficient Force defense against fatal force drain; and any real showings against someone of Traya's level in a Force fight.

this is getting frustrating. hes not going to reflect a force drain (if this is indeed what you are refering to)

once, i made the mistake of backing revan totally in sabers (it was my first thread so give me a break) when there wasnt that much material to back my arguement at all.

maybe there just isnt enough Force Usage to proclaim windu the force beast you seem to want to believe he is?

mace's amaizing power is not in force, but in sabers. leave it that he loses in force, but wins in sabers just because of the power that kreia has shown.

force feats that mace has shown
riding a landslide
force crushing grevious
force speed

if youl notice, the above has not been shown to kill a force sensetive.

Kreia
Instantly tooled 3 jedi masters in the force (as these are mostly unknowns, their relative power to windus is subject only to speculation)
(sideous never actually was able to do anything like this)

years upon years upon years of studying both sith techniques and jedi tecniques. (relevant speculation=who knows what else she might have in the anals of her mind besides a powerful force drain)

screwed with pretty much everyone she met's brains.

she just has a more impressive owning-through-the-force resume.

mace is overcelebrated because
he made vapaad, the form that edges on the darkside to strike as if with many lightsabers, reflect darkside energies back at the darkside user, draw power from the users lust for battle, and tiptoe on the edge of the darkside.

and he is the most celebrated user of shatterpoint, the ability to get inside someones mind and find their weaknesses.

He tools sideous with these lightsaber tools, something that the most devastating enemy the darkness had ever known couldnt do, making him legendary in most people's minds (except mine because i will always have the fleeting impression that it was an act), but in this duel, sideous and he do not have a force fight, confirming that lucas didnt mean for him to be some kind of force power god.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
this is getting frustrating. hes not going to reflect a force drain (if this is indeed what you are refering to)

once, i made the mistake of backing revan totally in sabers (it was my first thread so give me a break) when there wasnt that much material to back my arguement at all.

maybe there just isnt enough Force Usage to proclaim windu the force beast you seem to want to believe he is?

mace's amaizing power is not in force, but in sabers. leave it that he loses in force, but wins in sabers just because of the power that kreia has shown.

force feats that mace has shown
riding a landslide
force crushing grevious
force speed

if youl notice, the above has not been shown to kill a force sensetive.

Kreia
Instantly tooled 3 jedi masters in the force (as these are mostly unknowns, their relative power to windus is subject only to speculation)
(sideous never actually was able to do anything like this)

years upon years upon years of studying both sith techniques and jedi tecniques. (relevant speculation=who knows what else she might have in the anals of her mind besides a powerful force drain)

screwed with pretty much everyone she met's brains.

she just has a more impressive owning-through-the-force resume.

mace is overcelebrated because
he made vapaad, the form that edges on the darkside to strike as if with many lightsabers, reflect darkside energies back at the darkside user, draw power from the users lust for battle, and tiptoe on the edge of the darkside.

and he is the most celebrated user of shatterpoint, the ability to get inside someones mind and find their weaknesses.

He tools sideous with these lightsaber tools, something that the most devastating enemy the darkness had ever known couldnt do, making him legendary in most people's minds (except mine because i will always have the fleeting impression that it was an act), but in this duel, sideous and he do not have a force fight, confirming that lucas didnt mean for him to be some kind of force power god on par with sideous, yoda, or even nihilus. this is not saying hes weak in the force, but saying his power is more in sabers, not the force.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
1. LK is actually almost right, Mace used the Force to "ride" the landslide, which is impressive, but not exactly going to win a fight. Yoda can levitate a crane and an X-Wing, but he cannot win a fight solely because of that.

Erm. Nope. He used a "force grip" to keep that landslide exactly where it was. Hence he wasn't able to disarm a child using the force because the result would have been said landslide crumbling apart, eventually killing the two children that were already walking over it.

So Mace was in fact able to at least hold several dozen tons (if not hundreds) of stone, dust and so on in place.

2. Force TK, despite any apparent lev
el of power, is a universal trait. Mace Windu hasn't shown two things: sufficient Force defense against fatal force drain; and any real showings against someone of Traya's level in a Force fight.

What?
Of course he hasn't shown the ability to defend himself against a force drain. Yet, if I may remind you, Kreia used it against three Jedi that were focusing on a entirely different target while she also had sufficient time to prepare the attack. This aside from the fact that, at that point in time, there wasn't any defence against said attack.

Yet one might ask why people like Revan (who apparently knew the technique), Bane (as his successor) or Sidious (who did succeed both) didn't just walk around and smite people with that force drain / sever ability. Can it possibly be that this wasn't that easy to use, much less in an actual combat situation? Can it be that the Jedi after KotoR times actually did have an ability to defend themselves against that kind of power. Because, apparently, they can completely mask their force presence as well as any sign of life emanating from them (Tholme performed that action during the Clone Wars). So one could ask, assuming Mace also knows how to do that, what somebody should attack with a force drain. The then non-senseable force connection or the equaly non-senseable life-force of Mace Windu?

Aside of that I wonder where Kreia has shown the ability to defend herself against force attacks at all (seeing how Nihilus and Sion did pretty much kick her ass through the Trayus Core) which leads to the question what she's going to do if Mace decides to force crush her (force fight) or simply speeds up to her and cuts her down before she can even raise her hand (all out fight).

Which are, of course, just possibilities.

Erm. Nope. He used a "force grip" to keep that landslide exactly where it was. Hence he wasn't able to disarm a child using the force because the result would have been said landslide crumbling apart, eventually killing the two children that were already walking over it.

So Mace was in fact able to at least hold several dozen tons (if not hundreds) of stone, dust and so on in place.

I reread the passage just now, because it's been awhile. Pretty much, Mace does not "stabilize" the entire "hundreds of tons" quite so much as has been pointed out.

The something he did was to reach deep through the Force until he could feel a structure of brokne rock ten meters below him and five meters in from the face. He thought, why wait? and shoved.

The dirt cliff shook, buckled, and collapsed.

So initially, he Force pushes against some already broken rock to destabilize a dirt cliff which in turn helps corral the lava heading for the steamcrawler. A steamcrawler which, he admits to himself only seconds before, he would not attempt to levitate, thinking only Yoda would be able to do that kind of levitation.

Mace rode that crest while the wave sank and flattened and finally lurched to a halt, its last remnants trickling into a ridge that joined Mace's position with the corner of the steamcrawler' cabin. Nearly all his concentration stayed submerged in the Force, spread throughout the slide, using a wide-focus Force grip to stabilize the rubble while he scrambled down to the steamcrawler's roof.

So obviously the rubblehad 'lurched to a halt" before he was using his force grip at all. So again, the point remains that Mace Windu does not levitate or control hundreds of tons of anything. That's totally taken out of context. If anything, his doubt in carrying the steamcrawler puts a serious dent in his Force TK abilities, as he admits that Yoda could do this easily.

What?
Of course he hasn't shown the ability to defend himself against a force drain. Yet, if I may remind you, Kreia used it against three Jedi that were focusing on a entirely different target while she also had sufficient time to prepare the attack. This aside from the fact that, at that point in time, there wasn't any defence against said attack.

Again, the point remains: Mace hasn't shown himself combating people who know Sith Force drain on her level, nor has he shown any aptitude in deflecting Sith attacks of a similar nature. So it's burden of proof. Initially, people said "Mace will just survive it". Prove it. Force drain itself when used by Traya is always fatal. Ergo, it would seem that it would be fatal on most Force users seeing as it attacks their connection to the Force.

You can argue that the Jedi Masters were completely unaware of her, unprepared, and so focused on the already-frozen Exile but that's just rolling into massive, difficult-to-support speculation. They saw her, and had roughly the same amount of time to prepare that any opponent would have in a neutral versus setting. So unless its explicit in the source material or conclusively pointed out, it's silly to assume three Jedi masters were absolutely totally so absorbed in the Exile that they could not attempt any defense. The first thing she does is talk smack and then force push Vrook back like a ragdoll. If that isn't fair warning, I don't know what is.

Secondly, Traya using "prep time" needs to be substantiated. All we see in the cutscene is her listening to the proceedings from just outside of the room. She uses the same or similar attack later on against a dozen Sith assassins without so much as a blink.

Lastly, Traya says there are techniques against which there is "no defense". If you take this literally, then Force drain is unblockable. This may have some merit, as only the Exile, with her special condition, could cope with Nihilus. Nihilus, however, is an extreme example of Force drain, and as such may be using a level of the technique so high it cannot be blocked by normal means. And considering she taught Sion and Nihilus the technique, it stands to reason that if there was a sufficient defense, she would be the first to know.

Yet one might ask why people like Revan (who apparently knew the technique), Bane (as his successor) or Sidious (who did succeed both) didn't just walk around and smite people with that force drain / sever ability. Can it possibly be that this wasn't that easy to use, much less in an actual combat situation?

We don't have any evidence that they didn't when convenient, but in any case, by simply not using it in most showings doesn't make the technique difficult by far. Exar Kun didn't blast the entire senate hall with his gauntlet, yet by all rights he could have. Yoda preferred to saber the clone troopers, yet he probably could have just force pushed them all away with ease. It's all in the mindset of the combatant what they want to do. Traya hated the Jedi, and wasn't one to really get her hand dirty. This is apparent by her manipulation of sentients, and the fact that she uses TK to fight in the final battle. Likely, if Mace got in close, he'd own her with his superior strength and brutality. It'd be no contest if he can close the gap without her pushing him back like a ragdoll or zapping him dead. But when confronted with three era-reknowned Jedi masters, Traya fried them and in the cut content, went so far as to toy with them extensively before killing them.

Can it be that the Jedi after KotoR times actually did have an ability to defend themselves against that kind of power. Because, apparently, they can completely mask their force presence as well as any sign of life emanating from them (Tholme performed that action during the Clone Wars). So one could ask, assuming Mace also knows how to do that, what somebody should attack with a force drain. The then non-senseable force connection or the equaly non-senseable life-force of Mace Windu?

Firstly, the idea that post-KotOR Jedi can defend themselves against fatal force drain begs for proof, not conjectures.

Secondly, "masking" in the Force does not prevent force drain from ever happening, especially since it's a relatively passive power. When Ventress masked herself, Obi-Wan could feel her absence, even in a crowded pub. Traya herself is adapt at masking. She is effectively invisible to the Disciple, talking in his ear and making him think he's going crazy and hearing things. She is unsensed by the Jedi Masters only a room away, and in Atris' own compound she goes completely unnoticed. And she makes herself unseen to Sion during their first scrap on Peragus. So in a neutral versus setting, it's always apparent that the opponents are aware of each other, any attempt at masking will either meet with failure or be lost once they attempt to attack.

Sith Assassins mask themselves using the Force, and yet Traya overcame many of them.

Aside of that I wonder where Kreia has shown the ability to defend herself against force attacks at all (seeing how Nihilus and Sion did pretty much kick her ass through the Trayus Core) which leads to the question what she's going to do if Mace decides to force crush her (force fight) or simply speeds up to her and cuts her down before she can even raise her hand (all out fight).

Good question, and definitely one I've considered. Traya's force mastery is not something we can easily second-guess, and her mastery over former Jedi techniques and ancient Sith techniques makes her incredibly deadly and learned. She's also considered a Jedi Consular type in the game files, which marks her as a Force powerhouse. Sion and Nihilus overcame her easily, even though she was expecting them, but the main Force attack came from Nihilus, the sapper. She was broken, cast down, and striped of her power. Though the accompanying animation of Force drain is never shown, it's likely that Nihilus either overcame her with superior force power and then she became weak, or the exact opposite. All Sion did was work her over like a goon. I would say by virtue of her knowledge and status as a Force user (Below Nihilus, but clearly above Sion as she dominated him in the endgame easily, dominated Atris and the Jedi Masters, and damn near everyone else in the entire game) she would be above Mace Windu and therefore his force grip would be neutralized at best. The only person we see beating Traya in a Force duel is the same guy who eats an entire planet's inhabitants using the Force. That's something to be said there.

^what he said^.^