Yoda vs. Sidious rematch (no where to fall)

Yoda and Obi-Wan should have hijacked a star destroyer and flew it into the senate building... better yet, reprogrammed a droid to fly it into the senate building... then they wouldn't have died... and most of the people who did die would have deserved it. While the droid was flying it into the senate building, they could have been double-teaming Vader on Mustafar. Then, both Sith would have died. If Sidious somehow got out of the Senate building before the star destroyer hit it, well, the outcome would have still been better than what did happen.

That would include killing like... thousands of people who did nothing wrong...

I see the sarcasm. But still.

No, I am serious! Who else would have died? The meeting was over, a lot of the Senators were probably gone. Most of the Senators were in favor of Sidious, and all of them were dead by ANH anyways. And far less deaths would have been caused than there were in Sidious's time as Emperor, so.

Heh, good point.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
wow. darth sexy debated..... not well, but its still impressive 🙂

It's my first active participation in months and its a hell of a lot better than anything you've ever done. I don't have the passion for it nor do I care which is why I concede. Not to mention, Escape is a better debator and a more patient man than myself, with more sources at his disposal. Hats off to him, I have no hard feelings.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Escape.

But this is clearly contradicted in the movie, which is according to Leland Chee, the highest source of canon and the source we should "look to first". Ergo, if the movies show Yoda as being superior, then by all rights Yoda is superior. All other canon must bow down to the movies' version of events and beings. That's SW canon. You cannot use a blanket statement by the in-universe third party NEC narrator, or some novelisation interpretation, or an off-hand remark made by some forum goons... in the end, you must look to the movies first and foremost.

You do seem to bring that up quite a bit anymore, but it doesn't particularly matter. The movie does not show us that Yoda could 'whup Sidious' ass on a neutral setting!!1oneone!!!", and you further must question why -- if that were the case -- does every single supplemental source interpret a much different perspective than your own? Statements aren't thrown out arbitrarily just to screw with the movies, Janus, and it's this lack of acceptance that prevents you from ever making your point. Ultimately, more sources support my argument, and your assertions that the movie clearly expresses yours isn't working.

I notice that in this place, members tend to only use the movies when it supports them and turn against them when the movies cease to support them.

Oh, come off it, Janus. People here (for the most part) attempt to make use of the movies, Expanded Universe, and all available sources to arrive at the most logical conclusion. You seem keen on disregarding everything but the movies at this point because everything else contradicts the delusion that Yoda > Sidious. We can go back and forth on this for eternity, Janus, it's your choice. But if you're going to, a little honesty would be nice, instead of the desperate behavior that results from someone who can't stand being proven wrong.

Most of this has been conceded or disproven. As for a point-by-point ringside review, it's pending. Some of the scenes are very difficult to take screen captures of because the take is long and quick. I'll have it up shortly.

I conceded that Yoda may have not necessarily been forced out of his position. What you "glossed over" was the fact that Yoda had not breached Sidious's defenses or injured the Dark Lord. But, once again, I never expected you to play fair or be objective in this.

Sidious looks pained, unhappy, and overly-focused when he's fighting Yoda in lightsaber combat, but when he finally has some room and is up high, he's laughing. Likewise, when Yoda threw the pod back, he looked like he shit his pants, and then he jumped away. After that, he looked around all paranoid, and looked absolutely terrified when Yoda reversed his lightning.

As I've told you before, you'd make an excellent spin doctor. Janus, the only combatant in that duel who expresses pain is Yoda. Sidious expresses exertion, effort, and fear -- but never pain -- and on the flipside, he also expresses immense amusement, something that Yoda never does. If we're going to base this whole argument on the expression that each is wearing, I could argue that Sidious was clearly superior to Yoda because he was laughing his ass off and having a jolly good time, not even capitalizing on the two instances where he could have killed Yoda.

As far as the pod being hurled back to him, all I see is a signature cock of the head, which signifies confusion and perplexity, and then he shakes his head in anger and dives away. No "shitting his pants" expression, though -- once again -- I don't expect you to be either fair nor objective during this. It would make it hard to cement your unsupported argument.

All in all, Sidious doesn't have that smug, shit-eating grin that a winner has, or someone confident in their victory. Sidious looked noticeably more confident fighting Mace then he did Yoda. He didn't try to run from Mace, either.

All in all, Sidious's expression changed quite frequently during the duel. He looked pissed, afraid, and amused throughout the exchange. As for your idea that Sidious looked noticeably more confident fighting Mace, I'd submit that he looked simply angrier. That was the first time that he had touched a lightsaber in decades, and perhaps the first time he ever crossed blades with a Jedi Master, and he clearly went ballistic on the assembled Jedi team -- so it would be logical to assume he would be giving into his awesome rage. Likewise, as I have already explained, Sidious was aware of Yoda's legendary skills as a duelist by the time of Labyrinth of Evil and was presumably aware of Count Dooku's duels with the Jedi Master that resulted in the Count's continuous defeat and retreat. And, combined with the fact that he was beaten by a technically lesser Jedi Master (even though this was due to certain dueling properties) and he had just achieved galactic domination, I'm sure he wouldn't be absolutely confident of superiority.

Then there's the nagging fact that Sidious was unable to keep Yoda at bay during the fight or knock him out.

I must have missed the scene where Yoda sent Sidious for a nap, and I've watched the duel countless times. Would you mind pointing it out for me? Because, once again, I have my doubts that you're going to be fair or objective in this debate.

Yoda KO'd himself like some demented Super Smash Bros. player in trying to defend against the lightning.

No, no, no! Gosh, Janus! The movie shows Palpatine hurl Force lightning at Yoda and the Jedi Master attempt to deflect the lightning -- too late! -- and is overpowered and blasted against the office wall and knocked unconscious. The only way he KO'd himself was because he failed to deflect the lightning.

Again, supposing for yourself that Sidious was the one controlling the fight, he would have come out better.

I don't recall saying that Sidious did control the fight.

Not saberless, grabbing a handrail and having leveled half of the damn senate room.

So controlling the fight would have resulted in the combatant coming out in a better position? You mean like Yoda?

Oh, and prove that he was without his lightsaber. The movie didn't show it, and since you'd like to disregard everything else, there's no need to bring up the screenplay which says he was disarmed. Of course, even if you did (which I expect you will), I could counter that by either bringing in the novelization or pointing out that since the precise disarming scene does not follow the movie, it is clearly non-canon, meaning the question of Sidious's lightsaber might never be answered.

As it was, Yoda was defeated by the one thing which could stop him- a fall from several stories.

Right. I can see how that could be construed as the "better position". I guess Yoda did control the fight...

Let's correct something here that you seem to be glossing over:

I rarely gloss over anything. And when I do, I concede, as Nebaris has demonstrated.

Yoda only looks pained when he's first confronted with a huge concentration of Sith lightning.

And I was disputing this... how?

And then, when he looks like he's about to bite the dust, he steels himself and pushes back with such force that Sidious looks downright afraid and pained.

Several problems with this, I'm afraid.

a.) The lightning was still coiled and was still, at that point, closer to Yoda than Sidious. Add to the fact that this was a man who was nailed so hard with his own Force lightning that the act melted his face and, seconds later, he jumped to his feet without any strain or pain, I'm going to call out your notion that he "looked pained" and demand that you prove it.

b.) Of course Sidious looks afraid. That was never in question. What was in question was that you downplay the pain Yoda appeared to be in and concentrate solely on Sidious's expression of fear -- which I never disputed or questioned. Yoda looked to be in extreme pain, not like he was agitated with a Force splinter or something. Try to keep it in context.

Yoda at no point looks afraid.

Gee whiz, if only I said that he looked afraid. Did I, Janus? Or are you going to continue to put words in my mouth and address unnecessary points?

Pained? Once, and briefly overcome.

Extreme pain and overcome.

Afraid? No.

Redundant? Yes. Unnecessary? Definitely.

So yeah, put it into context, Escape. Please do so.

Once again, the only one here exposed to be completely biased and subjective here is you. I don't deny, gloss over, or take things out of context unless I am proving a point in a debate to those who do. Like yourself.

You seem to be smoking some serious dope, because your concept of "advantage" as well as "turning of the tide" are strangely incompatible with the real world.

As you'll now demonstrate, I'm sure.

Sidious poured on the Sith Lightning at Yoda from a distance of less than eight feet for a good 18-20 seconds before Yoda got the pissed look, Sidious then suddenly got the pained look (Before Yoda had even done anything other than stop grimacing), and then Yoda pushed forward and then there was the explosion. The actual push takes less than three seconds. Sidious simply could not resist. If this isn't a show of superior force mastery and power, nothing will suffice.

Sidious poured on the Sith Lightning that Yoda was blocking. Yoda pushed forward, and the lightning coil moved away from his hands and it went slightly closer to Sidious, where it stopped and detonated. I don't know what the hell you're trying to insinuate here, but Yoda didn't overpower Sidious. He pushed the coil of lightning a few inches away from his hands. That's it. It's not like there was a lightning coil in between them when Sidious originally hurled the lightning and he was trying to push it in Yoda's direction and failed. Then he would have been overpowered. But that's not what happened.

So, you're right, this is totally insufficient.

Except this is [b]wrong. Firstly, Yoda did NOT struggle to stop the pod. He did it instantly.[/B]

He struggled to keep it stop it, keep it stable, and send it back.

Secondly...

[b]The pods make humming sounds because their anti-grav systems are enabled when Sidious throws them![/B]

Watch the DVD with the sound way up. You can hear it. Sidious is manipulating the anti-grav systems to throw them at Yoda. Yoda catches one in a heartbeat, spins it around (Notice there's no humming sound when Yoda throws it), and it comes flying at Sidious. Sidious does not even consider stopping it using the force.

Desperation is sinking in, I see. Let's shut this theory down right now.

a.) I listened to the scene in question multiple times with the volume up. There is no humming sound emitted by the pods. There is only a whooshing sound that clearly comes from the fact that they are being hurled through the air at high velocities. If it is your assertion that this is the anti-grav systems in place, you must prove it. Because this isn't cutting it.

b.) When Sidious hurls the final pod at Yoda, there is a chugging noise which might be what you're referring to. However, the noise is still present when Yoda stops the pod, stabilizes it, and hurls it back. In fact, it even gets louder.

c.) Prove that it was the anti-grav systems and not a noise emitted by an object traveling downward at a high velocity or some sonical registry of the Force. Furthermore, even if you do, the noise is still there and even louder when Yoda stops the pod.

QED, Escape.

Aside from the amusement I get that you're so desperate as to base this entire argument on a sound, I've already dismantled it. At best, Janus, you'll gain no ground. At worst, you'll lose even more, and my friend, you don't have that much to lose. Don't waste it.

Let's look at my position in full:

Lightsaber combat- Yoda on neutral ground held every advantage. He pushed Sidious who was barely able to keep up, and he was able to create openings in Sidious' defense while showing none of his own. Even on the pod, he was able to keep this same advantage.

Being a master combatant for eight centuries, explain to me why he didn't capitalize on these "openings", Janus.

Force combat- Yoda demonstrates the ability to overcome Sidious' vaunted lightning, his most powerful attack in the movies. Likewise, he makes all TK pointless, as he dodges it or outright stops it dead and hurls it back. Sidious is revealed to be using the anti-grav systems and not his own force power, so it's apparent he can't just haul up three at a time using his own power. His Sith lightning, on which he relies quite a bit, is useless against Yoda.

a.) You've yet to prove that Yoda can "overcome" Sidious's lightning.

b.) You've yet to prove that Yoda makes all telekinesis pointless.

c.) You've yet to prove that Sidious was using the anti-gravity systems.

d.) As for his Sith lightning being useless, you "glossed over" that he rendered Yoda unconscious with it during the opening salvo.

QED, Janus.

Conclusion: In a neutral setting, no falls, Yoda wins, hands down. Yoda is superior.

This would hold weight if you'd bothered to prove any of it.

Escape, feel free to argue this against all logic.

This would be the same logic that you use at EoD, right? That would explain the distinct lack of substance. Really, Janus, you have no idea how amused I am. You've come off desperate before, but never to this great length. I enjoyed this and I can't wait for your rebuttal.

yoda, barely

Yoda barely beats sidious because he is too quick, itd be really close

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
It's my first active participation in months and its a hell of a lot better than anything you've ever done. I don't have the passion for it nor do I care which is why I concede. Not to mention, Escape is a better debator and a more patient man than myself, with more sources at his disposal. Hats off to him, I have no hard feelings.

there is no passion... there is peace

jk bro.

that was a complement, not an insult.

And now, ladies and gentlemen, Escape-speak for Dummies!

You do seem to bring that up quite a bit anymore, but it doesn't particularly matter. The movie does not show us that Yoda could 'whup Sidious' ass on a neutral setting!!1oneone!!!", and you further must question why -- if that were the case -- does every single supplemental source interpret a much different perspective than your own? Statements aren't thrown out arbitrarily just to screw with the movies, Janus, and it's this lack of acceptance that prevents you from ever making your point. Ultimately, more sources support my argument, and your assertions that the movie clearly expresses yours isn't working.

Translation: I refuse to accept the movie version of events even though it is the highest canon there is because it does not fit my argument and my fanboyism.

Oh, come off it, Janus. People here (for the most part) attempt to make use of the movies, Expanded Universe, and all available sources to arrive at the most logical conclusion. You seem keen on disregarding everything but the movies at this point because everything else contradicts the delusion that Yoda > Sidious. We can go back and forth on this for eternity, Janus, it's your choice. But if you're going to, a little honesty would be nice, instead of the desperate behavior that results from someone who can't stand being proven wrong.

Translation: I refuse again to accept the movie version of events because several less-canon sources support my fanboyism. I will now accuse you of being unable to accept reason. Kettle. Pot. Black.

I conceded that Yoda may have not necessarily been forced out of his position. What you "glossed over" was the fact that Yoda had not breached Sidious's defenses or injured the Dark Lord. But, once again, I never expected you to play fair or be objective in this.

Translation: I made a small concession which reason and the majority demanded, but then I'll counter it by saying you have not proved your side. Ultimately, when Yoda has the upper hand during the entire engagement and is defeated mostly by chance not by his opponent, I will still say that it was equal to avoid saying Yoda > Sidious, because I am a fanboy.

As I've told you before, you'd make an excellent spin doctor. Janus, the only combatant in that duel who expresses pain is Yoda. Sidious expresses exertion, effort, and fear -- but never pain -- and on the flipside, he also expresses immense amusement, something that Yoda never does. If we're going to base this whole argument on the expression that each is wearing, I could argue that Sidious was clearly superior to Yoda because he was laughing his ass off and having a jolly good time, not even capitalizing on the two instances where he could have killed Yoda.

Translation: Somehow, despite looking horrified and wailing, Sidious was never in pain whatsoever, but Yoda was briefly, therefore Yoda must be weaker. I'm going to make a huge big deal about this particular point and gloss over the truly important stuff like force mastery and lightsabery mastery, both of which would affect this versus match, whereas taunts, leers, and grimaces mean nothing. I will also make a jab at you as being some sort of new-age Sophist because at this point insulting you and trying to poison the well is all I can do when I'm losing the argument this badly.

As far as the pod being hurled back to him, all I see is a signature cock of the head, which signifies confusion and perplexity, and then he shakes his head in anger and dives away. No "shitting his pants" expression, though -- once again -- I don't expect you to be either fair nor objective during this. It would make it hard to cement your unsupported argument.

Translation: You cannot possibly be objective, even though I'm the one arguing against all reason in favor of my favorite character. You, on the other hand, are not a Yoda fanboy, but somehow you must not be "objective" enough for this debate.

Above: Official Pants-Shitting Face. Noticeably different from Shit-Eating Grin Face.

All in all, Sidious's expression changed quite frequently during the duel. He looked pissed, afraid, and amused throughout the exchange. As for your idea that Sidious looked noticeably more confident fighting Mace, I'd submit that he looked simply angrier. That was the first time that he had touched a lightsaber in decades, and perhaps the first time he ever crossed blades with a Jedi Master, and he clearly went ballistic on the assembled Jedi team -- so it would be logical to assume he would be giving into his awesome rage. Likewise, as I have already explained, Sidious was aware of Yoda's legendary skills as a duelist by the time of Labyrinth of Evil and was presumably aware of Count Dooku's duels with the Jedi Master that resulted in the Count's continuous defeat and retreat. And, combined with the fact that he was beaten by a technically lesser Jedi Master (even though this was due to certain dueling properties) and he had just achieved galactic domination, I'm sure he wouldn't be absolutely confident of superiority.

Translation: Yoda grimaces or doesn't laugh and he's inferior. Sidious changes facial expressions from rage, fear, frustration, pain, confusion, eating shit type grin, and he is superior or at the very least equal. Let's just ignore that Sidious wails in pain when Yoda starts to really repel his Sith Lightning.

I must have missed the scene where Yoda sent Sidious for a nap, and I've watched the duel countless times. Would you mind pointing it out for me? Because, once again, I have my doubts that you're going to be fair or objective in this debate.

Translation: You've noted that Sidious didn't have the upper hand at all during the engagement and didn't himself put Yoda down. Reversing thrusters, captain! Wait, wait! Yoda didn't do the same thing, even though he was clearly superior during the entire battle! Quick, the argument's losing ballast, captain! Toss reason overboard! If we get rid of enough, this bullshit will help us float the argument! Another "fair and balanced" type reference against the opposition, who has done more than just sling opinions and insults this entire debate!

No, no, no! Gosh, Janus! The movie shows Palpatine hurl Force lightning at Yoda and the Jedi Master attempt to deflect the lightning -- too late! -- and is overpowered and blasted against the office wall and knocked unconscious. The only way he KO'd himself was because he failed to deflect the lightning.

Translation: I'm going to skew the evident reality of the battle with my own biased opinion because I'm losing and the USS Bullshit is sinking to the superior firepower of USS Anti-Fanboy. So now I'm asserting that Yoda was -too late- and that he was defeated by a superior show of Sith Lightning, despite the fact that Sidious was unable to overcome or destroy Yoda even at a superior advantage with said attack and only survived the same fate as Yoda because he had a handrail to grab on to.

I don't recall saying that Sidious did control the fight.

Translation: You said Yoda controlled the fight. I said he didn't. But somehow, I didn't say Sidious controlled the fight, despite the fact that I've said repeatedly that Sidious was his equal, yet was winning and superior in many ways and Yoda grimaced like he hadn't had his daily prunes so somehow he's losing. I also hate on people for being contradictory like DS, but I do the same damn thing when it suits me.

So controlling the fight would have resulted in the combatant coming out in a better position? You mean like Yoda?

Oh, and prove that he was without his lightsaber. The movie didn't show it, and since you'd like to disregard everything else, there's no need to bring up the screenplay which says he was disarmed. Of course, even if you did (which I expect you will), I could counter that by either bringing in the novelization or pointing out that since the precise disarming scene does not follow the movie, it is clearly non-canon, meaning the question of Sidious's lightsaber might never be answered.

Translation: Occam's Razor be damned, if Sidious is suddenly without his saber in the next scene and he never ever uses it even when it could be advantageous to himself, you must be the liar by asserting it is gone and likely knocked away or destroyed. Also, things not shown on seen but implied by context must somehow be non-canon. So strictly speaking, according to my fanboy type logic, Anakin and Obi-Wan never shit or bath. If anyone asserted that they did, it is non-canon.

Right. I can see how that could be construed as the "better position". I guess Yoda did control the fight...

Translation: Captain, misdirection thrusters! Let's get this ship back on tack! Let's reference the exception as the rule and call it reasonable. Despite you proving conclusively that Yoda was outpacing Sidious in lightsaber combat with frame-by-frame scans and commentary, despite providing a video for all to see with every bleeding second of the fight in question, and despite new evidence arising which totally sinks all my assertions, I will continue to nitpick and misdirect until eventually you lose sight of your valid points.

I rarely gloss over anything. And when I do, I concede, as Nebaris has demonstrated.

Translation: I've conceded a minor detail once, and turned around and contradicted it in a debate with you because it endangers the tatters of what little argument I can support. Therefore, the exception must be the rule. Stop hatin', dawg.

And I was disputing this... how?

Translation: I'll play the good guy and ignore all the times I did dispute this, because it makes you look bad when I pretend to have concessions. Exception becomes the rule, FTW.

Several problems with this, I'm afraid.

a.) The lightning was still coiled and was still, at that point, closer to Yoda than Sidious. Add to the fact that this was a man who was nailed so hard with his own Force lightning that the act melted his face and, seconds later, he jumped to his feet without any strain or pain, I'm going to call out your notion that he "looked pained" and demand that you prove it.

Translation: The lightning, which Sidious shot away from himself at Yoda who was on a ledge with no real traction from about six to eight feet away, is somehow "farther from Sidious" and therefore proves the latter's superiority in Force mastery, despite the fact that he initiated the attack and by all rights it should always be farther away from him initially. I'll gloss over the fact that Yoda defended this assault with one hand after he dropped his saber.

Above: The massive distance difference in the endgame of the Sith Lightning DBZ power battle which conclusively demonstrates SIdious' uberness.

Additionally, Sidious looking pained and panicked before Yoda even does anything is overlooked, because I said so.

Above: The look on Escape's face when he realizes he's hopeless and cannot debate objectively. Also; Sidious' non-pained and panicked face when Yoda just gives him a stern look during the sith lightning DBZ battle.

b.) Of course Sidious looks afraid. That was never in question. What was in question was that you downplay the pain Yoda appeared to be in and concentrate solely on Sidious's expression of fear -- which I never disputed or questioned. Yoda looked to be in extreme pain, not like he was agitated with a Force splinter or something. Try to keep it in context.

Translation: Yoda looked pained for all of ten seconds during a five minute combat, because he was absorbing lightning which melted Sidious' face and made Luke Skywalker twitch with agony with his bare hands. Let's just gloss over that.

Gee whiz, if only I said that he looked afraid. Did I, Janus? Or are you going to continue to put words in my mouth and address unnecessary points?

Translation: I made a big point on Yoda looking pained, but suddenly I'm attacking you for addressing supposedly unnecessary points.

Extreme pain and overcome.

Translation: I ran this sentence through the Escape fanboy machine, and it came out looking more in favor of Sidious. You should see what it does with tax returns.

Redundant? Yes. Unnecessary? Definitely.

Translation: You made a point that Yoda did not look afraid at all during the combat, but Sidious did. I say it's unnecessary because I want to draw attention away from your entire argument, especially the parts which totally sink my bullshit ship of an argument. I love to nitpick arguments to the point in which the original intent and validity is obscured by my bullshit. I am a fanboy.

Once again, the only one here exposed to be completely biased and subjective here is you. I don't deny, gloss over, or take things out of context unless I am proving a point in a debate to those who do. Like yourself.

Translation: You don't agree with my skewed and biased view of things, therefore you are not objective and must be biased somehow. Because I said so.

As you'll now demonstrate, I'm sure.

Translation: Quoted and wittily replied to, when really I should be putting some decent sources, evidence, and reason into the argument itself. I am secretly jealous of you and I hate you a la Anakin, so I'm going to writh around on the burning sand and spit at your arguments when I should instead focus on bettering myself and not being a fanboy for a scrawny, wrinkled old British man.

Sidious poured on the Sith Lightning that Yoda was blocking. Yoda pushed forward, and the lightning coil moved away from his hands and it went slightly closer to Sidious, where it stopped and detonated. I don't know what the hell you're trying to insinuate here, but Yoda didn't overpower Sidious. He pushed the coil of lightning a few inches away from his hands. That's it. It's not like there was a lightning coil in between them when Sidious originally hurled the lightning and he was trying to push it in Yoda's direction and failed. Then he would have been overpowered. But that's not what happened.

So, you're right, this is totally insufficient.

Translation: Because Yoda didn't push the lightning another six inches (At which point it would have been in Sidious' lap) he didn't overpower Sidious, despite the clear and evident fact that Yoda caught the lightning with his bare hands on the pod's ledge, pushed back after twenty seconds with a push forward that Sidious could not resist. Of course, because my entire reputation on these forums is wrapped up in my rabid defense of my favorite character, your view of events must be skewed only because they do not make Sidious look better and more powerful. You can never convince me because I have abandoned reason and I make out with my Sidious full-body pillow every night.

He struggled to keep it stop it, keep it stable, and send it back.

Translation: Yoda stopped the pod instantly without any effort and send it back after winding it up like a top while Sidious sat there chewing on his hand.

Above: Yoda having a difficult time stopping the pod in under a second.

Desperation is sinking in, I see. Let's shut this theory down right now.

a.) I listened to the scene in question multiple times with the volume up. There is no humming sound emitted by the pods. There is only a whooshing sound that clearly comes from the fact that they are being hurled through the air at high velocities. If it is your assertion that this is the anti-grav systems in place, you must prove it. Because this isn't cutting it.

Translation: I assert that there are no humming sounds, despite the fact that it's clearly there in the DVD version of the movie- a clear every half-second whirling sound like some sort of 1940's UFO sound effect. I'm going to deny this one until I die, because it puts the final nail in the coffin of Sidious' superiority. You must prove that the pods have anti-grav, despite the fact that they routinely float around the senate chamber during the prequels.

b.) When Sidious hurls the final pod at Yoda, there is a chugging noise which might be what you're referring to. However, the noise is still present when Yoda stops the pod, stabilizes it, and hurls it back. In fact, it even gets louder.

Translation: I'm now subtlely admitting that there are noises, but apparently they only happen when Yoda uses the force to throw pods, despite the fact that when Yoda throws the pod, it makes a telltale whooshing sound as if it's cutting through the air, but it specifically does not make the UFO humming sound which all of Sidious' pods do. God, I am so desperate.

c.) Prove that it was the anti-grav systems and not a noise emitted by an object traveling downward at a high velocity or some sonical registry of the Force. Furthermore, even if you do, the noise is still there and even louder when Yoda stops the pod.

Translation: I try and put your new astute observation in doubt by asking you for burden of proof, when any idiot who owns the DVD and a working pair of ears can deduce the same thing, assuming they are not rabid fanboys. Also, Yoda did it more/only/worse, cuz it makes Sidious look better. Never mind that Yoda rotated the pod using the Force instead of using the anti-grav systems, hence no humming on the way up.

Aside from the amusement I get that you're so desperate as to base this entire argument on a sound, I've already dismantled it. At best, Janus, you'll gain no ground. At worst, you'll lose even more, and my friend, you don't have that much to lose. Don't waste it.

Translation: I'm hopeless and now I must insult you personally because it's all I have left. I can't defend Sidious any more because you've destroyed my baseless assertions using facts, reason, and even source evidence by way of videos and scans. I've done nothing but piss and moan and dispute you out of principle because I love Sidious more than my parents.

Being a master combatant for eight centuries, explain to me why he didn't capitalize on these "openings", Janus.

Translation: Yoda is really good, but because he didn't kill Sidious and create a George Lucas paradox and totally make the OT obsolete, he must somehow not be good enough to have those same openings. I rule.

a.) You've yet to prove that Yoda can "overcome" Sidious's lightning.

b.) You've yet to prove that Yoda makes all telekinesis pointless.

c.) You've yet to prove that Sidious was using the anti-gravity systems.

d.) As for his Sith lightning being useless, you "glossed over" that he rendered Yoda unconscious with it during the opening salvo.

QED, Janus.

Translation: I claim that all your arguments are unsound and not valid without submitting any definite proof of reason of my own. I win!

This would hold weight if you'd bothered to prove any of it.

Translation: You make a good argument, I say no to all of it because I love Sidious. I win!

This would be the same logic that you use at EoD, right? That would explain the distinct lack of substance. Really, Janus, you have no idea how amused I am. You've come off desperate before, but never to this great length. I enjoyed this and I can't wait for your rebuttal.

Translation: I'll jab at your forum which I willingly left because I found out I couldn't bash regulars and administrators and not get a simple warning. I'm going to act amused because it makes me seem more reasonable and mature if I do that, instead of kneeling and begging the forum for forgiveness from my rabid fanboyism.

Above: Escape's fanboyism and argument being blown away.

I was wondering why I didn't get a timely response from you, Janus, and I now see why: you spent all of this time cooking up a deliciously hilarious series of posts and designing a new signature. I don't know if I can declare that as time well spent, however, because if you exclude the humor, it doesn't really offer anything new. You spent all this time creating funny, mocking translations of the points that I had made, and yet all the while, you refuse to continue the debate. On a personal note, I am honored that I, a mere sixteen-year-old boy, have managed to have such a profound effect on your disposition. You attack me, call me a "fanboy", and attempt to embarrass me? All the while, you must remember that you're the founder of a dying, ignored forum where some of your oldest internet friends secretly think you're remarkably biased, obtuse, and otherwise inept as an administrator. Likewise, every time you've come back to KMC, paying your visits, you always whine and complain why I think the way I do and that I never "offer you sources!!!oneone!11!" -- and yet, when I do this and offer to discuss it, as well as question you about your obsession with Marka Ragnos via PM -- you ignore it.

Really, Janus, you'd think that a twenty-something-year-old man wouldn't be so easily pushed and would have a bit more maturity than a teenaged "fanboy". But as I've told you before, just when I think you've hit rock bottom, you manage to fall to a lower place.

Bravo, Janus. Bravo.

Now, perhaps when you've calmed down and stop getting your underwear in a knot over an online debate, you'd like to continue? I'm waiting and willing.

And nice work on the posts. Absolutely hilarious.

Alright, I have not posted here in forever but this above post annoyed me first

nice work on the posts. Absolutely hilarious

Second

you're the founder of a dying, ignored forum where some of your oldest internet friends secretly think you're remarkably biased, obtuse, and otherwise inept as an administrator

As for some of his 'oldest internet friends secretly think you're remarkably biased, obtuse, and otherwise inept as an administrator' that begs for proof since anyone can post something without backing it up. WIthout proof that holds the same level of accuracy as an accusation that you are secretly a Ragnos fanboy.

tl;dr version, STFU and provide proof

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
Alright, I have not posted here in forever but this above post annoyed me first

Did the Batsignal go up at EoD? Are all the Antedivulians coming out of the woodwork to unite and smite the wicked Gideon? How melodramatic.

Agreed, nice work Janus

'Nice work' doesn't begin to cover it. They were truly great examples of comedy, which makes Janus's recent slurs (calling Darth Sexy my "girlfriend"😉 all the more embarrassing. And the logic he uses provides a bit of unintentional humor, as well. When asked why Yoda didn't exploit the supposed gaping holes in Sidious's defense, Janus replies with "LOL so Yoda should haff killed Sidz and made the OT obsolete?!!oneon!!@". Adorable.

Second

This is completely out of line and hardly good debating. Instead of attacking an arguement, you attack the person, a poor show and it makes me question your entire arguement if that is what you have to rely on. Also, I would hardly call EoD a dying, ignored forum, there are several new members within the last few weeks, some new RPs being designed, many new posts and discussions taking place. That it hardly the description of a dying forum. Besides, how would you know anything about EoD unless you visit, in which case I wonder why you would go to a dying forum unles you are seeking acceptance of the members, enjoy the discussions, or go merely to pick small items out to bash in order to increase your e-peen. Kudos mate

As for some of his 'oldest internet friends secretly think you're remarkably biased, obtuse, and otherwise inept as an administrator' that begs for proof since anyone can post something without backing it up. WIthout proof that holds the same level of accuracy as an accusation that you are secretly a Ragnos fanboy.

tl;dr version, STFU and provide proof

I'll tell you what: I'll get in touch with the few individuals who made those comments, and ask if I can give you their names. That they still visit those forums to interact with the rest of you, however, might prevent that from happening. Wouldn't the wrath of a petty dictator and those who love him bring that to a grinding halt?

So, I appreciate it, Darkstar. But the rude behavior I now demonstrate to yourself, IKC, and (in your eyes) Janus, has always been that which they have dealt with me. Don't bother whining to me on their behalf, casting them as saints.

Did the Batsignal go up at EoD? Are all the Antedivulians coming out of the woodwork to unite and smite the wicked Gideon? How melodramatic.

I'll tell you what: I'll get in touch with the few individuals who made those comments, and ask if I can give you their names. That they still visit those forums to interact with the rest of you, however, might prevent that from happening. Wouldn't the wrath of a petty dictator and those who love him bring that to a grinding halt?

So, I appreciate it, Darkstar. But the rude behavior I now demonstrate to yourself, IKC, and (in your eyes) Janus, has always been that which they have dealt with me. Don't bother whining to me on their behalf, casting them as saints.

Sure you get in touch with those individuals, just remember bots and people with <10 posts do not count. As for calling Janus a petty dictator, I would disagree with that, at some time or another everyone at EoD, myself included, has disagreed with the others. The difference is that we disagree in a respectful manner, using logic and facts to support ourselves. We do not ban or warn for no reason and opposing beliefs can be expressed, hardly the actions of a dicator.

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
The batsignal? Nah don't over estimate yourself, if we were to bring all the Antediluvian's out this forum would likely crash from the sheer epic win we eminate. Besides, we don't need numbers when we have logic and facts on our side.

Is that so? Well, from the looks of things, you're going to need the numbers.

Sure you get in touch with those individuals, just remember bots and people with <10 posts do not count. As for calling Janus a petty dictator, I would disagree with that, at some time or another everyone at EoD, myself included, has disagreed with the others. The difference is that we disagree in a respectful manner, using logic and facts to support ourselves. We do not ban or warn for no reason and opposing beliefs can be expressed, hardly the actions of a dicator.

I think you'd be surprised at some of the names. And, please, I've been there and I've seen what you all do to one another. Lying and claiming that what IKC and people like him do is "respectful" doesn't exactly help your fragile credibility, Darkstar. If you're going to discuss this shit with me, don't try to sugarcoat the things that they do. Likewise, ****ing with Darth Sexy's usertitle to say "Escape's girlfriend", having threads dedicated to Lightsnake and him "getting owned", doesn't exactly inspire sentiments of an objective, fair administrator.

Try. Again.

I have time for about one more response, to please get to stepping.

Well, from the looks of things, you're going to need the numbers

I think you'd be surprised at some of the names. And, please, I've been there and I've seen what you all do to one another. Lying and claiming that what IKC and people like him do is "respectful" doesn't exactly help your fragile credibility, Darkstar. If you're going to discuss this shit with me, don't try to sugarcoat the things that they do. Likewise, ****ing with Darth Sexy's usertitle to say "Escape's girlfriend", having threads dedicated to Lightsnake and him "getting owned", doesn't exactly inspire sentiments of an objective, fair administrator.

Try. Again.

^^ your argument

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
Considering you have ignored Janus' posts as to why Yoda wins and used faulty logic and facts to try and get your point across, I don't think so. However, even that failed and you resorted to attacking the person himself and the forum he made, the next stage in fanboyism and defeating arguements it to resort to either a) lolz or b) okay thats enough, I'm done here, the facts speak for themselves based on past experience with fanboyzrus I'm guessing it will take another 2 pages of posts *sigh*

The comical diatribe Janus has posted were supposed 'translations' of my points; to respond would mean to go back and restate everything. That's counterproductive. If he would like to continue the argument, as I said, I am more than willing to do so. Pointing out that others find him to be anything but a competent administrator isn't a personal attack. At least, not on my end. I've vouched for Janus's intellect and ability on more than one occasion; he's brilliant. If you would please post examples of when I have said otherwise, now would be the time.

Considering you have yet to post names I have nothing to be surprised at

Originally posted by Gideon
I'll tell you what: I'll get in touch with the few individuals who made those comments, and ask if I can give you their names.

Some people have these new inventions that we call "lives". Ergo, they are not at my beck and call 24/7. You should try to pick one of these things up.

And again if you have been there, that begs the question of why considering you seem to hold some sort of grudge against us.

I have been there. As far as a grudge is concerned, I'm not the one crawling back to my forums and asking others for some help bashing the wicked Gideon (like you). I'm not the only lying to the public and saying that Antedivulians "respectfully disagree" with one another. I'm not the one coming out of the woodwork to argue against a person with whom I have had supremely limited interaction with.

Who holds the grudge here?

And considering LS is still hanging around EoD, things aren't quite as bad as you say.

Did I say that the entire place is oppressive? No. But thanks for trying to dodge around that point and sugarcoat it. What are you, EoD's fairy godmother? You want to discuss this with me or "bash" me, you go right ahead. But putting a spin on shit, outright lying, and then scrambling back trying to cover your ass once you've been exposed is not the way to do it. I suppose it's too difficult for you to actually be honest, so eager are you to avenge Janus's noble name?

Get over yourself. And while you're at it, you might want to ask for some more help from your e-buddies. Whatever advice they're giving you isn't working.

I'll be back later to resume this, assuming you're still keen on it.