Wolverine vs. Daredevil - H2H

"If you didn't grow up on it, you have no affection for it, no nostalgia for it and therefore, you just won't be able to get into it. But I read these ridiculously dressed characters doing unlikely things and talking and talking and talking while they did it. Like Wolverine, he's having to snake his arm through these huge word balloons filled with verbiage. He seemed to be having the massive conversation with these people he was gutting, you know? I read more and more of these bombastic villains and this real sort of over the top stuff and I thought, "My God, I'm never going to be able to write this." I phoned the guy back and said I have one idea for Marvel and one only-and it's the kills them all. He kills all the superheroes. Not exactly high concept stuff, but as a one joke story, it worked."

So he considers the costumes ridiclous, has no nostalgia and wrote a one joke story for the What If? comic. Just because you have no love for the superhero genre doesn't mean you have a hatred or agenda against superheroes generally and Wolverine specifically. I mean, Alex Ross had MUCH harsher words about the X-Men and it didn't show when he highlighted mutants in 'Marvels' at all. So because Ennis has no love for the sueprhero genre, he specifically targeted Wolverine in his story? If anybody were using his What If? story, I would definitely agree with you that it shouldn't be taken seriously and it had an agenda as a joke. As far as I see him writing Daredevil, Spiderman, Wolverine and Hulk... they didn't come out looking pretty... but that's about it. Would I be surprised if you found an interview where he admits that he hates Wolverine? Hell no. He probably does. But while I am swayed by this interview, I'm not completely convinced. I see people's criticisms of Ennis' writing as more about IDLI, IDH. Daredevil temporarily taking Wolverine down with a precise throat jab does not approach Spiderman defeating Firelord.

I don't think he specifically targeted Wolverine for the story, in fact I'm pretty sure he used Wolverine as a favour for the penciler (Robertston is a huge Wolverine fan and wanted to draw him)... doesn't change the fact that he wrote Wolverine like he was Wile E Coyote. His portrayal of Spider-man at the start of the series was almost as bad.

wolverine takes this 7/10
he's a way more experienced fighter and is able to get serious when he needs to...

Originally posted by jinzin
No it "seems" Like I've read the story and like I'm not trying to just give Daredevil every benefit of the doubt possible in spite of the fact that Daredevil divebombed Logan from behind while he was distracted in the first place. 😐
And you really are not in a position to know WHAT Logan said in that story outside of those two pages. 😐

Lol Im not giving him the benefit of the doubt when you used that same reasoning with SS I agreed that was a valid reason.

Oh and I read the fight with Wolverine vs SS its pretty obvious that SS was telling him about his past to distract him its not subjective but you probably decided to change your mind so that you can't give that reason to DD.

Anyway DD has an emotional attachement to MT so its not surprising it distracted him.

Originally posted by jinzin

🤨
That thread also has Wolverine fighting Gladiator for 6 days straight, dissapearing in broad daylight like the invisible man, and doing acrobatics as fast as Speed Demon can run in a straight line. Just because I posted something in a respect thread doesn't mean I think it's good or bad writing. And I'm fairly certain that I asserted as much in the thread as well.
A respect thread is about posting the best the characters got and leaving it up to others to decide.

Way so see you jumping off to half assed illogical conclusions again and dictating what I think to me though... nice work. 😉

Right so all that makes Wolverine beating Spiderman in a fight bad writing?

Originally posted by jinzin

Yes I did. You tried to assert that such a feat is not only okay but likely. My retort was an illustration of how much credit I think that holds.

Pressure points should do nothing to a man who knocks out Iron Clad while walking around a molten skeleton. 😐

Really? Pressure point worked on a pissed off Professor Hulk and DD is better than Captain America. Nah man you didn't address the point.

Originally posted by jinzin

It was in the write ups when they were hyping the story. Way showed a direct contrast to the same attempt several isssues later. 😐

Anyway DumbGO dealt with all that. Oh yeah while your at it I dare you to post the scans of the fight between DD and Wolverine in EOTS, try to prove that it didn't make DD good and that it made Wolverine look good and humiliate yourself. Bare in mind that we discussed this earlier on in this thread and the argument wasn't even that he was mindcontrolled but simply that DD didn't look good.

Originally posted by jinzin

Because OneDumb said he was hit by the dragon like a truck. And the whole point was to venture that IF was physically jacked when he fought Junzo.. from a tail whip? Yeah I find that rather "uh, no."

*sigh*...........Lizards tail is pretty powerful and he doesn't seem to be the size of that dragon.

Anyway Dumbgo dealt with this point, theres no point in adding anything else.

Originally posted by carver9
Since superman does have speed at his control like the flash and can basically mimic the move that flash can do in combat I know you can show me at least ONE instance on where superman tackled someone like this. I can show millions for flash, hell I can show millions for quicksilver since basically its there only power and they have mastered it.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/428454/Trinity03-008.jpg.html

Again wolverine knows every martial arts on the planet but during combat he rarely use it because 1. hes dont need to use it due to his healing factor and other abilities and 2. if he was to lose his healing factor he would basically have to teach himself and train to become that great fighter that he use to be or he would get killed.
Hell, mimic can move at 93000 mps but he has never shown the ability to fight like quicksilver or the flash due to him having other abilities at his disposal and again them being well versed at there powers, its just that simple. Like wonder woman, she has amazing speed feats like jumping around the earth in minutes but flashed walked all over her when he fought her, when flash tackled superman, the same thing happened until superman used a tactic and landed a well placed blow. During these fights theres nothing indicating that flash was even going close to the speed of light.

Yes, Wolverine doesn't always need to use his martial art skills. Doesn't mean he doesn't have them. Sometimes even when he does "need" to use martial art skills, and doing so would allow an easy victory, they're still not readily apparent to progress the story or even out a battle in a comic. Still doesn't mean he doesn't have said martial arts skills.

Substitute "Superman" for "Wolverine", substitute "speed" for "martial arts skills."

Superman can travel at superspeed. And can move his limbs at superspeed. But I don't think I'm going to convince you that he can walk and chew gum at the same time, so I'm going to stop derailing this thread. Saying that Quicksilver who is a statue with regard to speed compared to Superman, Wonder Woman etc can do things that they can't did give me a chuckle though.

Wolverine still wins...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It doesn't matter if his chi is more "potent."

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
He couldn't harness it to heal himself.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Danny was a regular skilled martial artist at that point and nothing changes the fact.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
That's what being utterly stripped of your powers means.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
He gets knocked out by a flying dragon and wakes up imprisoned in a cell.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The way you initially presented it was as if Junzo had embarassed Iron Fist in a straight up duel.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You may believe it was stated as 1v1 combat. Forgive me for not believing you. I've read reviews and looked at 2nd-hand information concerning the New Warriors comics where Junzo has captured Steel Serpent. No mention of a duel exists.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Whatever ABC logic you're trying to assert doesn't matter since you have no proof that Junzo actually fought Steel Serpent. He probably used the Hand to ambush/capture him. Until you prove it, let's not waste time discussing your extrapolations from some non-existent fight.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It doesn't exist.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You probably got Tieri's interview or some comic book reviewer's interview mixed up in your head.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ennis has never been quoted as hating superheroes. IDLI, IDH is different from PIS.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't remember Wolverine's bone claws drawing blood from Thanos. Scan or issue number, please?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The difference between PIS and IDLI, IDH is usually based on which character you prefer.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If you show me a scan of Shingen hitting Logan with a nerve shot to the throat, then you have an argument.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Fact is, if I adopted your logic, then no way does Wolverine get DD in a full-nelson after 3 panels. What top tier MA has ever embarassed DD so?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Pretty sure a lot of people have argued that Typhoid Mary was actually influencing DD's thoughts with her powers.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What's the issue number? Perhaps I'll have to find out myself, once again. Not only that, but Daredevil is obviously surprised when Wolverine reveals her identity to him. Afterwards, he gets him in a full-nelson. DD had no such benefits when Wolverine went into a berserker rage.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
That single scene is what you're referring to? Him eating his arm on the ship happened between Japan and Canada in like the first two issues. Between his revisiting of Department H in Canada and Cap's fight, he travels to Serbia, then travels to Japan, then travels to Washington DC, then to Brooklyn and then to Vietnam. He picks up supplies AT LEAST twice, boards planes and trains and sits on a floor meditating in his hideout.

Daniel Way has purposely written his healing factor down to raise the stakes of the stories...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
After Canada, not once is it mentioned that he is starving or sleep deprived. He's fully fresh and he even grabs a different costume. NOTHING suggests his healing factor wasn't at 100% efficiency. Stop making excuses.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Funny, I read that first feat as him being partly incinerated. Guess we'll ahve to disagree.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And once again, it wasn't a nuke. Nowhere is it referenced as a nuke in your scans. Go ahead and prove to me it was a nuke and I'll concede. Fact is, whether you believe it's true, I just don't trust your word anymore.

Uh, yes it was.. they describe it as such.. "It's on panel! blah blah blah"
Scans floating around here somewhere. Don't take my word for it and go read it. It's a nuke.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Knock it off. He only got his heart stabbed and ate his arm off in Japan and the boatride from Japan to Canada. That is it. Afterwards, he hitch-hikes, flys, takes trains to Europe, Asia, the US and back to Asia again. He hooks up with connections, drops by a hidden stash, picks up a costume, sits in his hideout and goes through several wardrobe changes. Nobody is going to believe that Wolverine didn't have sufficient time to eat and rest while travelling. His healing factor was in a rut in Canada and perhaps on the way to Serbia. Not at any point thereafter.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
He only tuned into the news in Brooklyn when his encounter with the Secretary ended with him no closer to those pulling the strings. He's sitting in his hideout in a meditative position. Pretty relaxing. You expect me to believe he didn't eat anything? This myth of yours is beyond reason. I find it hard to believe that you really need to go to such lengths.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Either way, it's a moot point in this thread. No healing factor for Logan. I'm sorry I brought it up when you mentioned it. Go ahead and have your last say and let's continue your starving, sleep-deprived Wolverine myth in some other thread where it's relevant. This thread got derailed enough.

You can pretend that Ord dropping Wolverine with a gut slash is his standard when his fights with Sabretooth/Deathstrike/Puma etc would prove otherwise.
You can pretend that Wolverine's HF hasn't been purposely written down by Way to make for better stories when his other representation of Wolverine's take everything plasma blasts, nukes, cyber, and deadpool can dish out is in the high majority even in his own writing.
But trying to delude yourself into the notion that Ennis isn't influenced by his distain for capes when he's flat out said he takes a piss out on heroes is just absurd.

And all this just so you could avoid regarding the real issues of your post that I dismantled several pages ago.. Nice red herrings I guess. 😬

Its not canon.
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/1935/wolvcutsthanostc6.jpg

😐

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Its not canon.
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/1935/wolvcutsthanostc6.jpg

😐

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I don't think he specifically targeted Wolverine for the story, in fact I'm pretty sure he used Wolverine as a favour for the penciler (Robertston is a huge Wolverine fan and wanted to draw him)... doesn't change the fact that he wrote Wolverine like he was Wile E Coyote. His portrayal of Spider-man at the start of the series was almost as bad.

But for illustrative purposes, let's turn this around. Fact is, Tieri wrote his Punisher story with an exact agenda in mind. He revealed his exact intentions in an interview. But the majority of people do not disregard the fight as PIS. But since when has Castle EVER hunted down another vigilante? Even one that kills? Never in my memory has he done so. And insinuating that Punisher is gay? Are we kidding here? So ask yourself:

"Does the writer's specific agenda against Punisher, combined with his poor portrayal of Punisher's character mean that Wolverine's victory rises to the PIS level of Spiderman beating Firelord?"

Originally posted by jinzin
As stated before how hard did you even look? It's pathetic how Srank and Cresh found multiple examples of Ennis admiting bias or partiality in several interviews with only minutes of searching. But as I supposed before, you know better don't you?

Originally posted by jinzin
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/1935/wolvcutsthanostc6.jpg

No it's not... Character preference doesn't change PIS from staying PIS while consistency DOES. Consistency also dictates the pace of reasonability for discarding a feat on the grounds of PIS or IDLI, IDH.

Originally posted by jinzin
Shingen was blasting Wolverine with a boken in nerve clusters that Wolverine stated would kill a man. He hit him three times in a row in the neck area and smacked him across the face. Wolverine, pre Bone-Claw, POISONED, stood there and whiped his face.

How many times has DD fought a top tier on Logan's level (while not weakened/mind controled)

If not, I can't find what you're referencing. I'd appreciate if you could post the scans. Don't evade the question. Nobody's ever embarassed Daredevil in such a quick and efficient manner. Not even Cap or Elektra.

Originally posted by jinzin
Which is nonsense since DD barely even had the first clue who he was following from his distance. She wasn't even aware of his precense much less influencing him.

Around MCP 150 or so IIRC.
Daredevil already had guessed that it was Mary, he was "surprised" at her development of a third personality.
There's no benefit to Wolverine who was blindsided, while tracking his former lover, while trying to explain the situation as DD's throwing kicks at him, after having already fought off Vengeance. 😐
There IS benefit to DD when Ennis is blatently discarding his own representation of Wolverine's HF to get him out of Punisher's hair. 😬

Originally posted by jinzin
And all of this happens over the course of a few (couple?) of days. His HF was taxed to the point he had to EAT HIMSELF..... That is *ucking extreme to a point I can't even believe I have to expand on... it would take longer than a couple days to get it back to full health, why do you think he was meditating long after Cassandra Nove blew his arm to dust? Why was his HF almost nonexistant when the reavers captured and tortured him?
Same when his Adamantium was removed?
When his HF gets taxed it takes time to get it up to 100%.
Even IF Wolverine ate and slept over the course of the few days from when he blacked out to the point he fought Cap he wouldn't be 100%...

Daniel Way has purposely written his healing factor down to raise the stakes of the stories...

There's no excuses to be made.
If you're going to argue that he was fine then you can just discard that as PIS as well considering that Wolverine's arms got crushed by Cyber and he was using them with no problem immediately, only issues later, AFTER being cut by the Muramasa.

Originally posted by jinzin
Guess so since this looks like a skeleton to me.. 😕
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/9547/thesuitwf0.jpg

Uh, yes it was.. they describe it as such.. "It's on panel! blah blah blah"
Scans floating around here somewhere. Don't take my word for it and go read it. It's a nuke.

Originally posted by jinzin
Again if he was to a point that he blacked out from being so worn down then there's no way in hell it was at 100% by the time he fought Cap, any insinuation otherwise is nonesense and totally unsupported by his whole career.

Beyond reason? He's shown hunting people for days with no food and no sleep in harsh environments. Reason doesn't apply to Wolerine so much as motivation.

Moot point? It's the entire reason why we're sitting here discussing this in the first place. If Logan's HF wasn't called into question there'd be little to no reason to call the Ennis incident into question, it then WOULD be IDLI, IDH.. but because the HF played a huge factor in it (or didn't rather) it's easy to expose as PIS.

You can pretend that Ord dropping Wolverine with a gut slash is his standard when his fights with Sabretooth/Deathstrike/Puma etc would prove otherwise.
You can pretend that Wolverine's HF hasn't been purposely written down by Way to make for better stories when his other representation of Wolverine's take everything plasma blasts, nukes, cyber, and deadpool can dish out is in the high majority even in his own writing.

But trying to delude yourself into the notion that Ennis isn't influenced by his distain for capes when he's flat out said he takes a piss out on heroes is just absurd.

And all this just so you could avoid regarding the real issues of your post that I dismantled several pages ago.. Nice red herrings I guess. 😬

Originally posted by jinzin
Yes it does since gathering/focusing/harnessing chi is a method that allows Marvel characters to increase their natural stopping power and durability.

No, he couldn't use the Iron Fist, there's no evidence one way or the other to using his chi to heal as he never tried.

Even without his Iron Fist, there's nothing regular about the man. 😐

Is that what being stripped of your Iron Fist means?
No? Then who cares?

And you think that's enough to assert that he was injured when nothing of the sort was EVER mentioned nor suggested.

Because in terms of skill he absolutely did. You can rant on about Dragon Kings all you like but it's nothing but your own speculation unsupported by ANYTHING but your comparisons to "normal people" which even without his Iron Fist Danny Rand is anything but.

As I said I believe it was stated in his bio.

It does matter when multiple people at the time are asserting that Junzo used the IF better than IF himself, or that he was faster and then he showed more h2h skill. 😐

Originally posted by jinzin
It's been acknowledged by both DC and Marvel. Either way it doesn't matter as it only serves to illustrate that "on-panel" doesn't matter where PIS is concerned. Wolverine also stabbed Thanos while weilding the Infinity Gauntlet which many consider to be impossible.

Im pretty sure that he wasn't using the Gauntlet to its full extent.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And as I recall, I was the one who completely busted your "Wolverine-was-starved-and-sleep-deprived-so-his-fight-with-Cap-doesn't-count" myth like cheap china. I was expecting you to take it like a man and say, "Well that's your opinion. We can agree to disagree." You want to keep BSing and expand this level of exposure and continue clinging to the theory? Whatever floats your boat.

Was it even a couple of days though? I dont have all the issues concerned with this but I dont think he could travel all that distance in a couple of days, but I could be wrong.

P.S. Jinzin you gonna post the scans of the fight between DD and Wolverine in EOTS? innocent

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Lol Im not giving him the benefit of the doubt when you used that same reasoning with SS I agreed that was a valid reason.

Daredevil was in the middle of an attack as Wolverine was trying to explain the situation. World of difference.
And I also don't attribute the fact to SS stabbing him to the surprise alone, the fact that Sam is too fast for Spiderman to react to, and that Wolverine litterally stopped fighting probably had something to do with it. Not to mention the fact that Wolverine used Sam's attack as an opening to exploit him into losing his arm. 😐

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Oh and I read the fight with Wolverine vs SS its pretty obvious that SS was telling him about his past to distract him its not subjective but you probably decided to change your mind so that you can't give that reason to DD.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Anyway DD has an emotional attachement to MT so its not surprising it distracted him.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Right so all that makes Wolverine beating Spiderman in a fight bad writing?

That has nothing to do with what we're discussing.

But since you asked. No. There's consistency with Wolverine beating Spiderman.
There's no consistency with Wolverine being as fast as Speed Demon or being a threat to Gladiator (who's already beaten Logan with Beasts help into a bloody pulp)

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Really? Pressure point worked on a pissed off Professor Hulk and DD is better than Captain America. Nah man you didn't address the point.

Captain America successfully pressure pointing a character like Prof Hulk is about as valid as Cap knocking him out with punches.. as in NOT VALID...

Do you have even the first clue of what Prof. Hulk was?
Why would a pressure point effect him when he walked through Vectors blast, to the point he was reduced to a walking smoldering skeleton only to punch Iron Clad unconscious?
Why would a pressure point from Cap even get past the durability of his skin which broke second grade ADAMANTIUM teeth?
Is Cap's damage output> Any version of Adamantium's durability? HELL NO.
Why would Cap's pressure point do ANYTHING to a guy who's healing factor was and is more impressive than Wolverine's STILL?

Prof Hulk was one of the most powerful, fast healing, badass versions of Hulk there's ever been.
You're supporting SMvsFL with SMvsGALACTUS here. 😐

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Anyway DumbGO dealt with all that.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Oh yeah while your at it I dare you to post the scans of the fight between DD and Wolverine in EOTS, try to prove that it didn't make DD good and that it made Wolverine look good and humiliate yourself.

Wolverine (mind controlled, missing half of his soul, and fighting said mind control) still easily evades DD's billy club toss with a noncholant sidestep.
http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/4120/ddmindcontrolqc2.jpg

DD rushes Wolverine and two Hand members using the ninja to block Wolverine from getting to him, even though Wolverine is run through a door with his back to a staircase, Wolverine (mind controlled, missing half of his soul, and fighting said mind control) still manages to roll with the fall down the stairs, while kicking Matt in the face hard enough to launch him across the basement floor, crashing into a cabinet, and forcing him to drop his billy clubs due to the blow.
http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/8013/ddmindcontrol2ck5.jpg

DD manages to grab ahold of Logan's hands, Wolverine (mind controlled, missing half of his soul, and fighting said mind control) simply knees him in the stomach it's enough to make Matt let go.
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/5162/ddmindcontrol4lw2.jpg

Wolverine (mind controlled, missing half of his soul, and fighting said mind control) takes a swipe at DD who can't avoid the blow, though glancing really, the sheer force of power Wolverine hits Matt with sends DD across the room again into a set of weights.
DD manages to grab ahold of a dumbbell and knock Wolverine's mind control into a fritz which makes him dizzy enough to stumble onto a blade, clear headed, the fight ends.
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/9382/ddmindcontrol5uh1.jpg

There you have it.
1.) Wolverine's weak in spirit, fractured in thought, and so far outside of his own mind he couldn't even remember most of what happened when he was under their control and couldn't be positive of the things he DID remember.
2.) He was fighting the control they did have on him.
3.) In spite of 1 Wolverine was STILL getting the best of matt in their direct exchanges up to the dumbell when he started fighting.
4.) And finally, on top of everything else, the Hand ninja that Wolverine opponents like to often argue that helped Wolverine oh so much during that conflict where reduced to a whopping TWO members by the time Wolverine got directly involved, and they served no other purpose than to be quite literally human shields for DAREDEVIL has he tried to force Wolverine down a stairwell with his terrain advantage..... oh oh, of course unless you want to include the handy danady plot devices they provided as a dead ninja body for Wolverine to arguably trip over, a sword which the ninja brought down that was coincidently sticking blade straight up in the air caught between the legs of a dead ninja body for Wolverine to fall 0nto after Daredevil grabbed the plot device of a dumbell to whack Wolverine in the head which normally wouldn't do anything to Logan except that this time it jarred/fritzed his mind control making him dizzy which is of course... ANOTHER PLOT DEVICE.... 😐

Yeah that was really embarrassing...

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
*sigh*...........Lizards tail is pretty powerful and he doesn't seem to be the size of that dragon.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Anyway Dumbgo dealt with this point, theres no point in adding anything else.

Jinzin did you read this? *sigh* Im not even arguing at this point that he was or wasnt mindcontrolled or had any other factors I am just simple questioning that you thought the actuall fight made him look good.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
*sigh* Even if you want to argue he was fighting mind control Wolverine didn't look better anybody whos read the comic can see that.

Originally posted by jinzin
Wolverine (mind controlled, missing half of his soul, and fighting said mind control) still easily evades DD's billy club toss with a noncholant sidestep.
http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/4120/ddmindcontrolqc2.jpg

DD rushes Wolverine and two Hand members using the ninja to block Wolverine from getting to him, even though Wolverine is run through a door with his back to a staircase, Wolverine (mind controlled, missing half of his soul, and fighting said mind control) still manages to roll with the fall down the stairs, while kicking Matt in the face hard enough to launch him across the basement floor, crashing into a cabinet, and forcing him to drop his billy clubs due to the blow.
http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/8013/ddmindcontrol2ck5.jpg

DD manages to grab ahold of Logan's hands, Wolverine (mind controlled, missing half of his soul, and fighting said mind control) simply knees him in the stomach it's enough to make Matt let go.
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/5162/ddmindcontrol4lw2.jpg

Wolverine (mind controlled, missing half of his soul, and fighting said mind control) takes a swipe at DD who can't avoid the blow, though glancing really, the sheer force of power Wolverine hits Matt with sends DD across the room again into a set of weights.
DD manages to grab ahold of a dumbbell and knock Wolverine's mind control into a fritz which makes him dizzy enough to stumble onto a blade, clear headed, the fight ends.
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/9382/ddmindcontrol5uh1.jpg

Easily evades DD's club? 😬 That's a mighty big stretch. DD clearly wasn't even aiming for him. He was clearly aiming for the ninja behind Wolverine, as evidenced by the fact that it then ricocheted off that ninja's head into another's head, only to then return back to DD's hand.

You're the one arguing that Wolverine was brainwashed and therefore not fighting to his full ability. Well, it seems pretty clear that Daredevil didn't even want to fight Wolverine, even as Wolvie is trying to kill him. The most offensive we see DD is with the dumbbell. Up to that, he's just trying to talk some sense into Wolvie while trying to stay alive from the various opponents (Wolvie included). He even grabs Wolvie's wrists in order to halt him to talk to him. An EXTREMELY-skilled martial artist like DD, and he doesn't attack Wolvie once he has him in this position?

And have you ever been kneed hard in the gut? I would've been more upset if it didn't make DD let go. Hell, if the roles were reversed, Wolvie probably would've had to have let go, too, from such a damaging attack.

Also shows that DD is quite capable of holding Wolvie's arms at bay, even with Wolvie's "ZOMG LOW-LEVEL SUPER STRENGTH". Wolvie couldn't get his hands back, so he kneed instead. And it worked.

Originally posted by jinzin
Wolverine was not in the middle of an attack when he was "surprised". Wolverine stopped fighting. Wolverine later commented on Silver Samurai's secret rattling him even after contemplating on it.

Daredevil was in the middle of an attack as Wolverine was trying to explain the situation. World of difference.
And I also don't attribute the fact to SS stabbing him to the surprise alone, the fact that Sam is too fast for Spiderman to react to, and that Wolverine litterally stopped fighting probably had something to do with it. Not to mention the fact that Wolverine used Sam's attack as an opening to exploit him into losing his arm. 😐

It is subjective for reasons already stated. You really CAN'T give the same reasons for DD you're right (lol), seeing how DD was in the middle of a failed attack when Wolverine told him about mary.

So does Logan. It didn't distract him.

Can't be bothered. Anyway yeah you could say its subjective its not a stretch to say DD was distracted.

Originally posted by jinzin

That has nothing to do with what we're discussing.

Yeah it does cant be bothered to explain why.

Originally posted by jinzin
Since you asked. No. There's consistency with Wolverine beating Spiderman.
There's no consistency with Wolverine being as fast as Speed Demon or being a threat to Gladiator (who's already beaten Logan with Beasts help into a bloody pulp)

Did Einnis write Wolverine being a threat to Gladiator?

Originally posted by jinzin

Yes. I. Did.

Captain America successfully pressure pointing a character like Prof Hulk is about as valid as Cap knocking him out with punches.. as in NOT VALID...

Do you have even the first clue of what Prof. Hulk was?
Why would a pressure point effect him when he walked through Vectors blast, to the point he was reduced to a walking smoldering skeleton only to punch Iron Clad unconscious?
Why would a pressure point from Cap even get past the durability of his skin which broke second grade ADAMANTIUM teeth?
Is Cap's damage output> Any version of Adamantium's durability? HELL NO.
Why would Cap's pressure point do ANYTHING to a guy who's healing factor was and is more impressive than Wolverine's STILL?

Prof Hulk was one of the most powerful, fast healing, badass versions of Hulk there's ever been.
You're supporting SMvsFL with SMvsGALACTUS here. 😐

What a load of crap.

Cap has hit Savage Hulk so hard that it made him let go. (Im assuming MA technique was put into that)
Hes Koed Namor underwater.
Hes hurt Abomination
Hes hurt Korvac with his barehands. Korvac who is more powerful than Professor Hulk.

I could list more I guess all these ocassions are PIS. You just call it PIS because it proves that Cap or DD can Ko him.

Originally posted by jinzin

No he didn't. He did what you do and tried to pull out a dozen red herrings to the real issues.
Wolverine's HF was purposely written down all the way til Wolverine fought with Daken. The only reason you THINK Dumb delt with it is because like him, you attempt to discredit Logan at every turn.

😐

Holy shit it was written down till he met Daken? Isn't that something like 10 or more issues later? So waitwaitaiwait not only was his HF depleted till he met Cap it was messed up until he met Daken?

Uh let me guess his HF was written down because it didn't fit you view of how it shoudl work so you made some excuse up.

Yeah I know im so biased im giving Wolverine 5/10....get out!

Originally posted by jinzin

Wolverine (mind controlled, missing half of his soul, and fighting said mind control) still easily evades DD's billy club toss with a noncholant sidestep.
http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/4120/ddmindcontrolqc2.jpg

DD rushes Wolverine and two Hand members using the ninja to block Wolverine from getting to him, even though Wolverine is run through a door with his back to a staircase, Wolverine (mind controlled, missing half of his soul, and fighting said mind control) still manages to roll with the fall down the stairs, while kicking Matt in the face hard enough to launch him across the basement floor, crashing into a cabinet, and forcing him to drop his billy clubs due to the blow.
http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/8013/ddmindcontrol2ck5.jpg

DD manages to grab ahold of Logan's hands, Wolverine (mind controlled, missing half of his soul, and fighting said mind control) simply knees him in the stomach it's enough to make Matt let go.
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/5162/ddmindcontrol4lw2.jpg

Wolverine (mind controlled, missing half of his soul, and fighting said mind control) takes a swipe at DD who can't avoid the blow, though glancing really, the sheer force of power Wolverine hits Matt with sends DD across the room again into a set of weights.
DD manages to grab ahold of a dumbbell and knock Wolverine's mind control into a fritz which makes him dizzy enough to stumble onto a blade, clear headed, the fight ends.
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/9382/ddmindcontrol5uh1.jpg

There you have it.
1.) Wolverine's weak in spirit, fractured in thought, and so far outside of his own mind he couldn't even remember most of what happened when he was under their control and couldn't be positive of the things he DID remember.
2.) He was fighting the control they did have on him.
3.) In spite of 1 Wolverine was STILL getting the best of matt in their direct exchanges up to the dumbell when he started fighting.
4.) And finally, on top of everything else, the Hand ninja that Wolverine opponents like to often argue that helped Wolverine oh so much during that conflict where reduced to a whopping TWO members by the time Wolverine got directly involved, and they served no other purpose than to be quite literally human shields for DAREDEVIL has he tried to force Wolverine down a stairwell with his terrain advantage..... oh oh, of course unless you want to include the handy danady plot devices they provided as a dead ninja body for Wolverine to arguably trip over, a sword which the ninja brought down that was coincidently sticking blade straight up in the air caught between the legs of a dead ninja body for Wolverine to fall 0nto after Daredevil grabbed the plot device of a dumbell to whack Wolverine in the head which normally wouldn't do anything to Logan except that this time it jarred/fritzed his mind control making him dizzy which is of course... ANOTHER PLOT DEVICE.... 😐

As I said earlier at this point im not even arguing wether he was mindcontrolled or not just simply you think it didn't make DD look good.

Nah it makes DD look good but I'll let everybody have a good laugh.

Originally posted by jinzin

You don't even know what the size of the dragon was. You haven't read the comic fool. I just went back and looked at it, the thing looks smaller than a compact car. It didn't even llok much larger than Iron Fist from an areal view of it.
And why bring Lizard up? He's ten times stronger than reptiles twice his size.

No he didn't. But defecting to that excuse is a good way for you to try and avoid exposing the fact that you have no idea what you're talking about like you usually do.

Like it would make a difference. Hell I read the EOTS issue and I still don't agree with you.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Easily evades DD's club? 😬 That's a mighty big stretch. DD clearly wasn't even aiming for him. He was clearly aiming for the ninja behind Wolverine, as evidenced by the fact that it then ricocheted off that ninja's head into another's head, only to then return back to DD's hand.

You're the one arguing that Wolverine was brainwashed and therefore not fighting to his full ability. Well, it seems pretty clear that Daredevil didn't even want to fight Wolverine, even as Wolvie is trying to kill him. The most offensive we see DD is with the dumbbell. Up to that, he's just trying to talk some sense into Wolvie while trying to stay alive from the various opponents (Wolvie included). He even grabs Wolvie's wrists in order to halt him to talk to him. An EXTREMELY-skilled martial artist like DD, and he doesn't attack Wolvie once he has him in this position?

And have you ever been kneed hard in the gut? I would've been more upset if it didn't make DD let go. Hell, if the roles were reversed, Wolvie probably would've had to have let go, too, from such a damaging attack.

Also shows that DD is quite capable of holding Wolvie's arms at bay, even with Wolvie's "ZOMG LOW-LEVEL SUPER STRENGTH". Wolvie couldn't get his hands back, so he kneed instead. And it worked.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Easily evades DD's club? 😬 That's a mighty big stretch. DD clearly wasn't even aiming for him. He was clearly aiming for the ninja behind Wolverine, as evidenced by the fact that it then ricocheted off that ninja's head into another's head, only to then return back to DD's hand.

You're the one arguing that Wolverine was brainwashed and therefore not fighting to his full ability. Well, it seems pretty clear that Daredevil didn't even want to fight Wolverine, even as Wolvie is trying to kill him. The most offensive we see DD is with the dumbbell. Up to that, he's just trying to talk some sense into Wolvie while trying to stay alive from the various opponents (Wolvie included). He even grabs Wolvie's wrists in order to halt him to talk to him. An EXTREMELY-skilled martial artist like DD, and he doesn't attack Wolvie once he has him in this position?

And have you ever been kneed hard in the gut? I would've been more upset if it didn't make DD let go. Hell, if the roles were reversed, Wolvie probably would've had to have let go, too, from such a damaging attack.

Also shows that DD is quite capable of holding Wolvie's arms at bay, even with Wolvie's "ZOMG LOW-LEVEL SUPER STRENGTH". Wolvie couldn't get his hands back, so he kneed instead. And it worked.

your words make meh nod in agreement!

Howdy all. Im back. Just to comment on a couple of things Jin posted.

We have to be clear that Wolvie wasnt fighting the control the ENTIRE time he was at Matts house. We also have to be clear that there are instances where Wolvie appears to be "fighting it" or "stalling".

In this first scan, its clear Wolvie isnt "fighting" the control. Things seem to be running smoothly inside his head at that moment.

In this scan, Wolvie does appear to be stalling more than "fighting" or resisting the control. Only for a brief moment though.

In this last scan, it clearly appears Wolvie is not resisting nor stalling. Again, everything is going according to plan and hes indeed going to try and finish Matt off.

With this scan, it shows Wolvie telling Matt to let him go at it solo with Mary because of the said reason. Also, DD DID have a brief encounter with Mary telepathically. She did so with Wolvie and Vengeance as well. DD was hot on her trail and thats what Wolvie used to find her. Also Jin, you mentioned Wolvie fighitng with Vengeance, but that was an issue before the scuffle with DD and DD had a scuffle with Steel Raven also prior to his encounter with Wolvie, so its not like Wolvie was fresh out of a battle with someone.

Heres a scan of Stone telling DD not to be reckless after DD tried to actually take bullets. 🤨 Note, this isnt the first time DD actually tried to absorb gunfire on purpose.

Bushwacker mentioning that DD would never get tagged by his bullets. Also, DD using a different more aggressive approach with fighting.