Originally posted by Boy Bluehis edge in durability is marginal without his HF, no?
Anyways, regardless about claws, Logan still wins.Even if you want to lay out skill and whatnot as even, Logan gets the edges in durability, strength and speed.
And, IMO, Logan's more skilled, if only by a hair.
and I don't think he has an edge in speed
Originally posted by Starscream MHe still has an adamantium skeleton, and his bones are ridiculously denser than human beings. So his durability edge is quite substantial.
his edge in durability is marginal without his HF, no?and I don't think he has an edge in speed
Also, while pain tolerance doesn't fall under durability, that's also ridiculously high, and pressure points made to cause pain as a distraction or an overall sensation would be effectively moot.
I think he has an edge in speed... Wolverine's moved faster than the eye can track, and blitzed characters many times... something I've never seen Daredevil pull off as impressively.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Fair enough.
Yea but, if this was just simply no healing factor Wolverine, why is the title H2H? It'd more like "Wolverine vs. Daredevil - no HF," or something along those lines. But you're right, he didn't actually mention no claws. I merely gathered that from the H2H title and the course of the debate.
I typically regard fights where Wolverine's claws are negated for the purpose of h2h as stupid, because it's usually made to match skill, but Logan's method of fighting for 90% of his appearances is a style based entirely around his claws, whether it be cutting the opponent or getting into a position where he can threaten to.
But, like I said, I give Logan the edge either way.
Originally posted by Boy BlueYes, well, I think we can both agree that Mr. Hyde's skin and muscles are far denser than Logan's. So while Daredevil would absolutely not break Wolverine's bones, he is still sufficiently strong and proficient enough to use pressure points and simple fisticuffs to knock Wolverine around.
He still has an adamantium skeleton, and his bones are ridiculously denser than human beings. So his durability edge is quite substantial.Also, while pain tolerance doesn't fall under durability, that's also ridiculously high, and pressure points made to cause pain as a distraction or an overall sensation would be effectively moot.
I think he has an edge in speed... Wolverine's moved faster than the eye can track, and blitzed characters many times... something I've never seen Daredevil pull off as impressively.
Pressure points can be made to do more than feel pain. Daredevil can do that, but he can also use them to blind and use them to paralyze his foes.
Daredevil has also moved very fast, faster than the eye can track. And Daredevil has actually batted away bullets with his billy club with a swing, not just blocked them. That's something I've never seen Wolverine do. The best he has is swatting a dart. I think it's very feasible that Wolverine is faster than Daredevil, but not by large enough a margin for it to matter. Especially when you consider Daredevil's use of radar sense to telegraph attacks.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Jinzin, thank you for posting the scans that I asked for. And your stance is reasonable. Unfortunately, I think you helped prove my point as much as proved your own. I'll give credit where credit is due. Your incredulity of DD bringing Wolverine to his knees is not simply based in rampant fanboyism. However, you still fail to recognize that precise damage does indeed affect Wolverine, albeit momentarily. I've already discussed Elektra and Cap.
Perhaps you missed the part where I readily agreed that nerve strikes and the like should have the effective capibility of eventually putting Logan down. Of course they should effect him.
But to what degree? They may hurt, multitudes may even drop him. But ONE strike to the throat shouldn't leave him gasping on the ground unable to get back up, it's that simple.
You've already discussed Cap and Elektra and I've already dismantled those examples.
Elektra is a stirct contradiction to the DD showing. It completely discredits that a strike alone would do anything to Logan, Elektra's application of pressure points only worked as long as she KEPT APPLYING PRESSURE. Once she stopped Wolverine was up and at her all over again... Using that example as a pillar of your debate means that Daredevil's strike should have lost all effect as soon as his hand was removed from the pressure point assuming it was one.And that's against a Wolverine who's once again taxed, and once again
drugged. 😐
Captain America... well you know my stance there and we'll be getting to that in a moment.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Let's address your very own Shingen scans. In the second to last panel, Wolverine admits that his legs go numb. It's the first time he gets hit in the spine, but as Wolverine admits, everything goes
downhill from there. He doesn't even appear to have regained the use of his legs by the time Shingen ends it in the second page. This is even clearer proof that precise strikes can cause Wolverine to
temporarily fold. In his DD fight, apparently it worked. In his fight with Elektra it definitely worked. And in the very same battle you stated proved it wouldn't work, nerve strikes both work and don't work at the same time:
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/7767/46660397kk2.jpg
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/9242/55679963nh9.jpg.
Look AGAIN (since I must pound even the simplist of points back into you repeatidly), Wolverine should be hurt by nerve shots a bit, but not to the degree that DD's did and certainly not in one blow. The scans prove that without a doubt. Wolverine never got put down with the nerve strikes. He just. Kept. Fighting back. In spite of coughing up blood and going numb below the waist he just keeps fighting back. Shingen literally has to drill his body weight into Logan's neck just to get him off his feet in SPITE of hitting his spine hard enough to make his legs go numb. Wolverine wasn't left defensless until the very end of the brutal confrontation and multiple damaging blows later.
And once AGAIN (since you're ignoring the points you don't like as usual) this is against a Wolverine who had a much MUCH weaker healing factor before the Fatal Attractions story line, AND against one who's been drugged with poison to the point that he almost didn't make it, added on top of the fact that he's still hurting like hell when he wakes up.
At MOST you could argue that a lot of presicion based strikes can work against a weak ass Wolverine who just got done knockin at death's door. What you CAN'T argue is that the feat legitimizes the Daredevil instance.. AT ALL... 😐
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Let's try something else. Sword stabs. How many times has
Wolverine had his heart stabbed and he's been fine? Well there are
times where he's not fine:
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3572/wolverine088page06072yd.jpg
http://img405.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ownedbygorgon2zg2.jpg
Lol, so you see an overwhelming amount of evidence that rids your DD feat of it's credability and decide to use examples attacking his torso instead? Hehe, well, while I'm not really fooled by this diversionary tactic it DOES amuse me enough to play into your little game. First though I'd like to point out how humorous it is to me that one such as yourself who crusades against non-cannon examples no matter what the point is that's attemping to be made so sternly, likewise has no problems using the most circumstantial and inadmissable evidence one can find. It's rather absurd.
With your Deadpool example, Wolverine didn't have a working healing factor. This is stated during the fight with Deadpool IIRC, referenced after the fight, and a full page was illustrated to address Wolverine's healing factor getting back into working order.. What exactly you think that proves about Wolverine with a healing factor or an Adamantium Skeleton I have no idea. 😐
With your gorgon example.... Perhaps it supports the premise of your argument, perhaps it does not, it really can be argued both ways.
On one hand, you've got Wolverine fighting some indeterminable amount of Dawn of the White Light zombiefied-ninja, and Gorgon stating that he doesn't want to engage Wolverine until Wolverine's tired out a bit. From that we can assess that he didn't fight Logan til Logan had fatigued, given that he's a telepathic with genious level intellect it's not unreasonable to say he knew when this was either.
Of course on the other hand, you've got Wolverine crouching, clutching his wound and pleading his body to heal faster.
The problem of course is simply that we have no idea as to what took place after that moment. Was Wolverine put down by Gorgon's next blow? Did Wolverine attempt to fight back? Did he heal his wound accordingly?
Really any number of events may have taken place.
However, if we did decide to give Gorgon the benefit of the doubt and strip it away from Logan... y'know, since we always do.... and assume that Gorgon put Logan out with the next blow... It STILL wouldn't legitimate the Daredevil instance as Wolverine while wounded is nowhere NEAR the level of incapacitation which daredevil left him at....
Now as with the throat examples... There's plenty in support of Wolverine for the torso too. Did you honestly think for one second there wouldn't be? 😐 ....
1. Wolverine is stabbed through the stomach with a spear; it garners no reaction from Wolverine whatsoever.. Not even retaliation:
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5571/stomachstabbyqk9.jpg
2. Albert stabs Wolverine through the left side of his chest (near or at the heart) then procedes to gut him... once Elsie Dee breaks up the fight Wolverine mills about like nothing happened (and this was AFTER being hit with a stealth bomber http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/2751/wolverine69ht9.jpg):
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/6209/albertuj8.jpg
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/1443/albert2ic2.jpg
3. After Wolverine has piled up dozens of Brood drones, one of them launches it's hand through Wolverine's torso infecting him with the brood in the process. His reaction? He mocks them and then kills them. Something the size of an alien arm combined with the HF having to fight off infection did nothing to put Wolverine down.
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7656/brood2xs8.jpg
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/378/brood3ic2.jpg
4. Wolverine gets his head blasted by a suped up baron strucker's power glove then gets tossed off a building; Swordsman II goes to save Wolverine by stabbing a sword through him. lol. Wolverine stands there and unflinchingly pulls it out:
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/596/swordsmencatchzw9.jpg
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/4889/swordsmencatch2to9.jpg
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/2771/swordsmencatch3ci4.jpg
5. Stabbing Wolverine in the torso didn't work for Blade either.... Well I guess it DID get an "ouchie" out of him:
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/5559/blade2gr2.jpg
6. After crashing the X-Mens blackbird, Wolverine and Sabretooth have a knock down drag out brawl, Wolverine's missing large masses of his neck and his torso and still keeps fighting:
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/8025/sabesinfernofight6bxw5.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/627/sabesinfernofight8qr3.jpg
7. Death's Head II impales Wolverine through the torso. Wolverine's response is not much more than frustration:
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/2171/10948000sr0.jpg
8. After fighting an army of cavement, a group of mutates, sauron and dinosaurs, Wolverine gets chomped b a T-rex.. doesn't keep him from dicing more dino's up getting out of his peril and eventually putting Sauron down when Rogue fails to do so:
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/1686/sauronsmutates16ya1.jpg
http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/5663/sauronsmutates18xt3.jpg
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/8159/sauronsmutates19io0.jpg
9. The Shredder plunges his lady Deathstrike sized hand through Wolverine's torso... doesn't do him much good at all:
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/4406/shredderfight3lo0.jpg
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/8013/shredderfight4ek2.jpg
10. Wolverine having been shot to living hell gets stabbed in the back by a gang member, he gets up and uses the blade of the sword to throw as a weapon:
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9035/barfight4hm6.jpg
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/7603/barfight5vj3.jpg
11. Mr. X tries his hand at gutting Logan (who's been put through the ringer twice at this point) after shooting him to hell and he just. keeps. coming:
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4813/mrx4pd5.jpg
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6316/mrx5pk8.jpg
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/6347/mrx6px3.jpg
12. After a fairly brutal battle, Shingen stabs Logan through the gut and then goes for Logan's neck, all he gets for his troubles is a face full of claw:
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/1732/wolvieii7cw8.jpg
13. Silver Samurai runs Logan through the torso, Logan just punches him back. When Samurai tries to cut his head off, Wolverine simply breaks his arm:
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/2318/silversam3ci3.jpg
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/8272/silversam4kv0.jpg
14. Ogun runs full tilt ramming his katana through Logan's torso... NOTHING:
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/5095/ogunkittyfight9me4.jpg
15. In Wolverine's first encounter with Azreal in WWI, he gets stabbed through the chest and simply retorts by pulling out the blade and laying waste to his foe:
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/182/az5qk0.jpg
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9352/az6gl2.jpg
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/7440/az7qg8.jpg
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/5872/az8rq6.jpg
16. Irony is a beautiful thing as when we see Gorgon try his hand at stabbing Logan again later (This is Logan who'd been stabbed in the throat, embedded in concrete and left to bleed out) it isn't nearly enough to put him down, hell Wolverine even evades his next sword attack and attempts to go h2h before Gorgon starts working him over with repeated punches while using his telepathy to dig through Logan's mind...
http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/7593/gorgon1dj9.jpg
http://img71.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gorgon2fv3.jpg
17. And the most ironic of examples yet, Silver Samurai stabbed Wolverine through the torso (In New Avengers it was retconned to be that SS sliced his heart in half), Wolverine simply grabs hold of Sam's arm and cuts it off, then walks away.
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/2231/silversamurai4le9.jpg
http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/6964/silversamurai5yh3.jpg
And these aren't even taking into consideration crazy feats like getting bodyslammed by Hulk, or Namor and getting up, fighting, talking trash for their troubles. Getting punched through buildings by Thing and running back to the fight. Having a hole blown through his stomach to the ribcage without a healing factor and retaining consciousness while sitting up.
So this time, as was last time, we can see.... Your examples are merely nothing more than circumstantially based low showings that you parade around as a standard when it's quite obviously the farthest thing from it.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Well.... Nothing as I've just shown you.
What does this prove?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0A majority of the time, it most certainly is.
That cumulative and catastrophic damage is not the only way to incapacitate Wolverine.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0A majority of the time? Nope, and you've yet to post one example to support that theory that isn't circumstantial or illigitimate in some way, much less posting evidence of a SINGLE strike being suffecient enough to put down a healthy Wolverine...
Precise damage has proven to incapacitate him.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0is PIS.
The above examples, DD throat strike,
Originally posted by OneDumbG0is an example that contradicts and discredits the PIS of the DD feat.
Elektra sai stab,
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Was against a Wolverine well below 100%.
Cap tendon crush.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Not variant HF alone, but a mix of skill with loads of bad writing (PIS), or plotlines you're ignoring,
This has nothing to do with a wildly variant healing factor. It's about technique. And each of the above cited examples has that technique in spades.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Dropped it? It was never a pillar of the argument at hand. But the fact that Ennis did write it certainly lends credit to the fact that Wolverine was purposely mishandled with no concern whatsoever for accurate representation.
At the same time, it's very good to know that you've dropped the whole Ennis is biased so it's garbage excuse. Fact is, Ennis has no love for superheroes. He didn't portray Wolverine well.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Tieri specifically targetted Punisher. He didn't portray Punisher well.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Writer bias is no reason to throw out on-panel feats.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
PIS is indisputably retarded writing, i.e. Spiderman beats Firelord. Daredevil using a nerve strike to bring Wolverine to his knees for a few seconds DOES NOT RISE to SPvFL. Nuff said.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And I'll risk responding to your ludicrous starved, sleep deprived myth once more. Which makes me feel dirty because it almost seems like I'm actually injecting worth by discussing it when it's so patently ridiculous. First, right off the bat you were wrong. Wolverine did not just wake up from 'House of M' and head out on his quest. He waits several weeks before doing so. Second, he did starve and arguably didn't rest between Japan and Canada. He was not in good shape at that point. But not at any time thereafter, was he portrayed as being starved, sleep deprived or anything less than normal. Third, he travels to Serbia, to Japan, to Washington DC, to Brooklyn and then to Vietnam:He meets with connections, grabs supplies and an extra costume, boards cars+planes+ships+trains, carries around duffel bags and sits in his Brooklyn hideout. Do you expect ANYBODY to believe that he didn't eat a single thing or that he didn't rest a single minute? PLEASE. What, he goes through six wardrobe changes and can't bring himself to get a sandwich? What did he have in those duffel bags... weights to make it even harder for himself? Is that what he's doing? He's going on a mission and intentionally starving himself and not sleeping? You're theorizing is turning Logan into the stupidest mutie I've ever heard of. Even I give him more credit then that!
I like how you rant on all the while ignoring Sranks fine post. It basically stumped every bit of nonesense you wrote here.
When Wolverine began his "mission" his whereabouts where unknown, his motives unknown, and his targets unknown. Apparently he put on the blinders to without food and sleep from himself before he met up with Sam, yet AFTER the fight, AFTER his situation became more dire, AFTER he got back on the radar, AFTER he left Silver Samurai alive to tell various people he was coming for them....... He just DECIDED to pull a total 180 and start taking long ass snoozes while gorging himself stuffed huh?
No, I don't believe Wolverine didn't get a wink of sleep, nor that he didn't eat a morsel of food between the Sam and the Cap fight. But I DO believe that any sleep he did get was not restful and most likely nothing more than a cat nap (Since passing out for hours would certainly leave Wolverine vulnerable to be taken in if spotted), that any food he got was nothing more than single serving snacks (The kind you typically get when doing long distance cross continental traveling).
It's obvious Wolverine isn't up to par from origins and endings all the way till the Cap fight (and even after that thanks to Muramasa).
The only hideout we see Wolverine in is a small apartment room, he's not eating, he's not sleeping, he's sitting awake listening to multiple news channels for a lead, keeping what appears to be a constant vigil until he gets one.
What I expect others to believe is really pretty simple.. That Way DOES have a completely different interpretation of Wolverine's healing factor before and after this low point, that Wolverine WAS taxed out to the point of a blackout days earlier, that it WOULD effect him for an indeterminable period of time afterwards, that he WAS constantly traveling around the globe and back... and back, that jet lag would certainly factor into his sleep cycle, that
So what if he changes his clothes? He had a wardrobe change when he went after Samurai. Didn't mean he went to the furniture warehouse after an all you can eat buffet before hand... 😬
What was in the duffle bag? Probably clothes... you know the things one usually keeps in a duffle bag.. 😐
Originally posted by OneDumbG0LOL of course you do. You absolutely refuse to give Wolverine any win points as long as you can help it. You're telling me that Cyber, a guy strong enough to smack Strong Guy around, casually beat up the Darkriders, and casually punch a horses head off with one hit DIDN'T crush Wolverine's forearms when he clamped down on them?
Then of course you have to inject some wild idea that Daniel Way inconsistently portrays his healing factor to wild degrees within stories. What did you say before? That Wolverine needed minutes to heal crushed tendons from Cap, but that a post-Muramasa-sliced Wolverine healed his crushed arms in seconds? You're talking about this:
http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/6592/cyberqu4.jpg
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/8505/cyber2wy2.jpgYou're kidding me. Yea. Maybe you could interpret that as having his arms crushed. I interpret that as Cyber breaking his full nelson hold and clamped his arms between his adamantium lined ribs and arms. If Wolverine had mentioned that his arms were crushed or his tendons were crushed, yea, maybe you'd have a point that there's inconsistency. As far as I see, there's no way Cyber could have actually applied direct pressure to his tendons in the precise way that Cap did using his ribs. It's not the same thing. Thus there is no inconsistency.
The action FX coming from Wolverine's forearm area are then supposed to imply what? Cyber's atrocious body odor?
And what's that scan of Wolverine grabbing ahold of his forearm as Cyber turns to face him? I guess he's just checking to see if his arms are still as hairy as usual...
Plus all the blood seeping out of his Adamantium claw port-holes? Oh well... Wolverine... just.... does that.... 😏
Please, this is some of the most pathetic crap I've ever seen, ignoring "on-panel" evidence that's right in front of your face for an interpretation of the event that has no merit whatsoever.
To say that Cyber didn't damage his arms is one deal, but to insinuate that he couldn't apply the same amount of pressure as Cap? Do you have any idea just how ludicrous you have to be to be stating that?
Presicion has nothing to do with it when it's your entire arm getting flattened by an Adamantium strongman.
There's massive inconsistency and shame on you for trying to delude yourself otherwise.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0WHAT THE ****? I asked you flat out how many people on Logan's level has Matt fought. You've supplied Cap, who has beaten DD but most of their fights have been circumstantial, also doesn't help that most evidence that points to a superior fighting between Cap and Logan goes to Wolverine. Then you mentioned Elektra.. Elektra, who one shotted DD in her first appearance, beat him from pillar to post in their first fight until she baited him into a trap, had a said at his throat in 3 panels, kicked him to his ass in two panels, and secured a rear arm pin while completely calm and trying to have a conversation with the man.... 😐
And lulz at you for arguing that consistency should govern and that IDLI, IDH ought to be PIS. You wholeheartedly endorse that Wolverine getting DD into a full-nelson in three panels is consistent.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Prove that they were. Show me the panel that even comes close to stating that they were.
While ignoring Typhoid Mary's powers influencing him
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
AND ignoring DD's distraction at the mid battle revelation of a third Typhoid.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0I've yet to see where it doesn't hold up, which is why I asked for proof... DD's almost been snuffed by several Hand ninja.. 😐
This was a consistent showing to you?
Find me other martial artists one shotting Logan, hell they can even be better than DD for all I care... lmao..
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You actually gave me these scans of DD knocking the crap out of Elektra before she gets him into a hold as the same thing? You got DD hitting Elektra four times, screaming and actually turning to Milla for her to get out and then finally Elektra puts him into a reverse armbar:
http://img57.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ddsj5.jpg
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/1739/dd2ze0.jpg
The hell? Are you even reading the same scans I posted or are you just making things up in your head as you go along again like the Cyber incident?
DD successive strikes to Elektra who isn't there to even raise a hand to Matt. She's calmly talking to him, trying to get him to turn on the television and doesn't even show one expression of stress, anger or effort. he on the other hand is flying off the handle trying to lay into her without hearing one word she has to say... She handled him and wasn't even phased by his little tantrum. How you can interpret that any other way just goes to show what lengths you're willing to reach to attain your agenda.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
you: "Oh Ennis was biased!"
me: "So was Tieri, and unlike Ennis, Tieri was specific about it. So we throw out Tieri's fight too?"
you: "No! Because also nerve strikes don't work on Logan, he's taken worse!"
me: "Actually, you just proved yourself that nerve strikes work. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. And Logan has taken worse, but he's also taken less but more precise damage to great effect."
you: "No! It's not consistent!"
me: "Fine. Then throw out DD's full-nelson because that is wildly inconsistent with Daredevil as well."
you: "No!"
In spite of the fact that Tieri's only real attack on Punisher was on his sexuality you want to argue that it's the same mistreatment as Wolverine recieved even though Punisher was being written up and Wolverine being written down for the fight and Punisher actually lasted 20 pages in it?
In spite of TONS of evidence that I've given discounting DD's throat shot, you continue to act like it doesn't exist. Only taking into account a single feat out of the bunch and only a portion at the END OF IT where the nerve hits on a weakened and weaker Logan effected him but never realizing they didn't stop him from fighting back and isn't what actually put him down?
In spite of me asking for evidence of people on Wolverine's level that Matt's done so well against you've yet to come back with a single credible retort and insist that Matt losing to a superior fighter in every category save radar sense is something worth dismissing?
You're ability to interpret my arguments is as misguided and faulty as your interpretation of the comics you read.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0I'm exibiting no double standards here.. it's all you buddy.
Lame. Your ideas are lame. Your theories are lame. Your double standards are lame. You've had to switch positions so many times, I can barely tell where you stand anymore. Every single thing you say, I have to go and actually read for myself because I've found that you selectively leave out details or just plain forget them (neither of which is reassuring) and you go to very great lengths to concoct wild theories that absolutely make no sense whatsoever. Wolvie didn't eat or sleep at all in 'Origins & Endings?' And for what? I mean, just what is the whole overall purpose of that wild idea? To make Wolverine look more impressive in a single fight against Cap that he already performed admirably in? Just. Unbelievable. Nuff. Said.
The only unbelievable thing here is the sheer lengths you go to discredit Logan at every turn and the simple neglect you display every time you're proven wrong.
Nuke?
Contradictory throat feats?
Stomach feats?
Arm crushing feats?
DD getting handled feats?
It's all there... The best you can come up with aside from representing low showings as the mainstream consistency?..... "He changed his wardrobe".... pathetic.... purely and simply... pathetic.
Originally posted by jinzinWOOT. I did miss where you agreed that nerve strikes would work! Y'see, I only interpreted Wolverine being on the ground for a few seconds at best. I never suggested that he was on the ground, gasping for air and couldn't get back up after a long time. Like you stated somewhere else in your posts, we don't know what happened after gorgon initially stabbed Wolverine in the heart. he was down for a few seconds, trying to heal. But he may have gotten up a few seconds later and fought him if Gorgon didn't capitalize. Same thing here. We don't know that Wolverine was on the ground for mionutes. Indeed, I never asserted so. I say seconds, but we never get to see because the action cuts away. AHA! So we do agree then. Y'see, some of your logic actually is working in tandem with mine so I don't think we're that far apart. Precise damage can temporarily incapacitate Wolverine. We've both proved it. Yes he can take more without problem, but sometimes he can't. And skilled opponents are the only ones who characteristically do this to him.
Perhaps you missed the part where I readily agreed that nerve strikes and the like should have the effective capibility of eventually putting Logan down. Of course they should effect him.
But to what degree? They may hurt, multitudes may even drop him. But ONE strike to the throat shouldn't leave him gasping on the ground unable to get back up, it's that simple.
That's all I needed to hear, because the only thing we disagree is that you believe Daredevil incapable of doing it to Wolverine. You offered that Ennis is generally biased. Well, Tieri was biased with an agenda against Punisher specifically, with an outlandish portrayal of Punisher's character and you don't throw that out. Nuff said. Then you said it was inconsistent. I mean, a while back I'd point out deerkick or Spiderwoman punking him in the jungle although Wolvie got the drop on her. But we focused on Daredevil caught in a full-nelson after 3 panels. You don't throw that out even though it's arguably inconsistent with his history. Daredevil has fought Cap and Elektra. Two of the few people you would readily admit rival Wolverine in MA skills and they never embarassed DD like that EVER.
You offered scans where DD actually hits Elektra four times, is distracted with Milla not running away and finally gets put into a reverse armbar by a bloodied Elektra. What did you argue? That Elektra wasn't trying to fight Darfedevil? Well, according to you, neither was Wolverine in the Typhoid Mary scan. So what? Nuff said. IDLI, IDH doesn't become PIS. Daredevil putting Logan down for a few seconds with a throat shot is NOWHERE near the level of SPvFL.
As for you 'starved and sleep-deprived myth,' I've said all that's necessary. He has more than ample opputunity and time to grab a bite and to rest. He has no reason to make things harder for himself to achieve his quest. He has retrieved supplies, met up with contacts, sat inside planes and trains and sat in his hideout in Brooklyn. NOBODY has agreed that Wolverine never ate a single thing and did not sleep a single minute at all during his quest in 'Origins & Endings.' Only you. And I saw something about......... single serving snacks? ........ jetlag?
hysterical
Hey, at least you admit your error that Wolverine did not go straight from waking up after 'House of M' straight into his quest. I won't convince you your myth is lame. Because you obviously put an awful lot of thought into the theory and placed a lot of stock into it. We can agree to disagree. But I will continue to regard it as laughable and totally unnecessary.
I don't have a specific agenda against Wolverine. I mean, did Draco69 have a personal agenda when he posted the "Wolverine never took a nuke" thread? No. He just felt that the pervasiveness of the myth and its erroneous nature ought to be addressed. I haven't even gone so far as making threads against Wolverine. And I've actually gone out of my way to explain a lot of PIS-y things about Wolverine. If I see something totally erroneous, I point it out. I do it a lot in other threads. Not just against Wolverine. I can't help the fact that you pretty much limit your involvement in Wolverine related threads. Nuff said.
....
Single serving snacks?
....
I'm gonna remember that one. Cmon. Jinzin, whatever you think about me personally. You gotta chuckle about that, man. Heh. 😂
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Did you miss the part where I also brought into question what degree they would effect him?
WOOT. I did miss where you agreed that nerve strikes would work! Y'see, I only interpreted Wolverine being on the ground for a few seconds at best. I never suggested that he was on the ground, gasping for air and couldn't get back up after a long time. Like you stated somewhere else in your posts, we don't know what happened after gorgon initially stabbed Wolverine in the heart. he was down for a few seconds, trying to heal. But he may have gotten up a few seconds later and fought him if Gorgon didn't capitalize. Same thing here. We don't know that Wolverine was on the ground for mionutes. Indeed, I never asserted so. I say seconds, but we never get to see because the action cuts away. AHA! So we do agree then. Y'see, some of your logic actually is working in tandem with mine so I don't think we're that far apart. Precise damage can temporarily incapacitate Wolverine. We've both proved it. Yes he can take more without problem, but sometimes he can't. And skilled opponents are the only ones who characteristically do this to him.
Or the part where I stated that it would take many to put him down?
Can you not gather that I feel even a number from Shingen to a weakened version of Wolverine didn't stop Wolverine from fighting back?
Are you content to sit there and fantasize only half a response from me instead of taking into account the entirety of I really wrote?
Can you SERIOUSLY not determine the considerable differences between this...
And this?
Are you honestly going to sit there and CONTINUE to argue that the Daredevil one shot, and arguably Gorgon's sword thrust are Wolverine's standard? When there's multitudes of evidence to discount both character's coming from others who are just as skilled if not moreso and distributing even worse damage?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0In a fight yes. If DD had unlimited free shots, he could very well take Wolverine down. But it would need to be quite a few. But Daredevil can't do it in ONE strike, not against the way Wolverine is normally portrayed. That's true for Wolverine's entirety AND exclusive to Ennis' version. It was P. I. S.
That's all I needed to hear, because the only thing we disagree is that you believe Daredevil incapable of doing it to Wolverine.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Yes to show that he has no concern when it comes to mishandling characters. However I gave REASONS why it was PIS that go beyond that statement alone, and plenty of them. Your constant grasp at that statement is like watching someone slowly losing their grip on a rope. It's clear it's the only point you can attack since you continue to do so inspite of reapeated reminders that this was never the pillar of any argument made here.
You offered that Ennis is generally biased.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Why should I? Tieri mistreated Punisher's sexuality.... Okay... what does that have to do with the fight? Did Punisher perform sub par? Hell no. Did he do fairly well against Tieri's Wolverine? You bet your ass. If I was trying to legitimately argue that Punisher was gay, you may have a point, but as it stands the battle doesn't go against heaps of evidence. DD laying Logan out with a single strike to the throat however, stands against mountains.
Well, Tieri was biased with an agenda against Punisher specifically, with an outlandish portrayal of Punisher's character and you don't throw that out.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Then you said it was inconsistent. I mean, a while back I'd point out deerkick or Spiderwoman punking him in the jungle although Wolvie got the drop on her. But we focused on Daredevil caught in a full-nelson after 3 panels. You don't throw that out even though it's arguably inconsistent with his history. Daredevil has fought Cap and Elektra. Two of the few people you would readily admit rival Wolverine in MA skills and they never embarassed DD like that EVER.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You offered scans where DD actually hits Elektra four times, is distracted with Milla not running away and finally gets put into a reverse armbar by a bloodied Elektra. What did you argue? That Elektra wasn't trying to fight Darfedevil? Well, according to you, neither was Wolverine in the Typhoid Mary scan. So what?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0You sound like a broken record, or a really long rap chorus, but Ad nauseum doesn't make your statement anymore valid. Level doesn't matter. PIS is PIS.
IDLI, IDH doesn't become PIS. Daredevil putting Logan down for a few seconds with a throat shot is NOWHERE near the level of SPvFL.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Which he had even more ample time to do BEFORE he fought Silver Samurai.. so why didn't he?
As for you 'starved and sleep-deprived myth,' I've said all that's necessary. He has more than ample opputunity and time to grab a bite and to rest.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Time constraints is a good reason, the moment people found out that Logan had his memories the trail to Logan's past was already being brushed over. Being a prime suspect is another, Logan stopped for 15 seconds to make a phonecall and got spotted, going out to dinner might draw attention, he has to use currency that can't be traced back to wherever he may have perviously been. In any case, he had LESS reason to make things harder on himself before the Silver Samurai fight.. so why did he?
He has no reason to make things harder for himself to achieve his quest.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
He has retrieved supplies, met up with contacts, sat inside planes and trains and sat in his hideout in Brooklyn.
His hideout in Brooklyn doesn't support your side of the debate.
We don't know what kind of planes he was on IF he was on a plane at all, in all likelyhood he wasn't on any sort of passenger airliner, more likely being smuggled again.
So this prove nothing other than that he traveled using different methods and HAD hideouts... Funny.. he HAD hideouts and had to travel before his engagement with Silver Samurai.. so what happened there?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Uh No... INCLUDING ME.......
NOBODY has agreed that Wolverine never ate a single thing and did not sleep a single minute at all during his quest in 'Origins & Endings.' Only you.
Originally posted by jinzin<<<<<
No, I don't believe Wolverine didn't get a wink of sleep, nor that he didn't eat a morsel of food between the Sam and the Cap fight. But I DO believe that any sleep he did get was not restful and most likely nothing more than a cat nap (Since passing out for hours would certainly leave Wolverine vulnerable to be taken in if spotted), that any food he got was nothing more than single serving snacks (The kind you typically get when doing long distance cross continental traveling).
It's obvious Wolverine isn't up to par from origins and endings all the way till the Cap fight (and even after that thanks to Muramasa).
Originally posted by OneDumbG0😐
And I saw something about......... single serving snacks? ........ jetlag?hysterical
Yes... he was on ONE passenger train... What exactly do you think they served Logan that got him stuffed to the rafters?
Other than that it's likely he was either piloting his own craft as Nuke saw in his craziness or being smuggled across continents... Tell me how many well fed people have you ever seen being smuggled into other countries?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Neither of us can really say how long Wolverine put on the blinders and self neglect, we know for a fact he can go 3 days in a desert without food or sleep even when blown up... who knows how long he'd last in less damaging environments.
Hey, at least you admit your error that Wolverine did not go straight from waking up after 'House of M' straight into his quest. I won't convince you your myth is lame. Because you obviously put an awful lot of thought into the theory and placed a lot of stock into it. We can agree to disagree. But I will continue to regard it as laughable and totally unnecessary.
Fair enough, I'll still regard your representation of the Elektra fight as anything other than an owning ridiculous as the cyber example, as the representation of Wolverine going down to one shot from Gorgon or argueably DD as Wolverine's standar.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Or perhaps he just wasn't really well informed... You are. You have fact after fact presented right in front of your face and you continue to choose to ignore it...
I don't have a specific agenda against Wolverine. I mean, did Draco69 have a personal agenda when he posted the "Wolverine never took a nuke" thread? No. He just felt that the pervasiveness of the myth and its erroneous nature ought to be addressed.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0I honestly don't get how that's a joke. I've been on flights and train trips and the most any passenger airline/train has given me is a crappy 3 inch excuse for a sub sandwich and that was like 12 years ago... Logan rode a passenger train and he was supposed to get full? Off of what? Miniature wine bottles and bags of chips?
I haven't even gone so far as making threads against Wolverine. And I've actually gone out of my way to explain a lot of PIS-y things about Wolverine. If I see something totally erroneous, I point it out. I do it a lot in other threads. Not just against Wolverine. I can't help the fact that you pretty much limit your involvement in Wolverine related threads. Nuff said.....
Single serving snacks?
....
I'm gonna remember that one. Cmon. Jinzin, whatever you think about me personally. You gotta chuckle about that, man. Heh. 😂
Highly unlikely....
I mean c'mon even when the guy's totally healthy and in good condition he eats out the entire kitchen of he New Avengers just for his breakfast meal..... but he's gonna get back up to 100% after being taxed to the point of a blackout off of snacks?
And what's there to laugh at about jet lag? Wolverine went back and forth across timezones about 3 times back and forth... There's no reason to say he wouldn't have been effected by that... 😬
Originally posted by jinzinSo now you're arguing that Wolverine could never be brought to his knees for a few seconds by a single precise shot by a competent martial artist that rivals him in skill? I don't discount that Wolverine has taken massive amounts of damage. I don't discount that Wolverine has even been able to shrug off precise damage designed to breifly incapacitate. But these three concepts are not mutually exclusive of each other. You want to engage in reductionist nonsense that since Wolverine has taken massive damage and sometimes shrugged off precise damage by competent martial artists that ANY instance where Wolverine is briefly incapacitated by precise damage is PIS. What kind of simplistic, self-serving logic is this? It's utter crap. In the damn examples that you yourself show, by the very same writers in the very same stories, Wolverine has proven prone to brief incapacitation from precise damage.
Are you honestly going to sit there and CONTINUE to argue that the Daredevil one shot, and arguably Gorgon's sword thrust are Wolverine's standard? When there's multitudes of evidence to discount both character's coming from others who are just as skilled if not moreso and distributing even worse damage?
Shingen couldn't stop Wolverine when he nailed him with several nerve strikes to his neck... but he completely numbed Wolverine's feeling in his legs with a single strike to the spine. Wolverine takes massive damage from his fight with the X-Men without ever missing a beat, but a single inadvertent sword stab through the heart actually briefly shocks his system enough to bring his personality back in Murdock's apartment. These occurrences are not SPvFL PIS. Wolverine has consistently been depicted as being prone to brief incapacitation from precise damage. Your very own evidence proves this. Daredevil nerve striking Wolverine and stopping him for a few seconds could never happen? PHAIL.
Originally posted by jinzinSo... between these two fights, Elektra who doesn't want to fight DD embarasses Daredevil worse than Wolverine who doesn't want to fight DD here:
Elektra embarrassed Matt worse, your sorry ass interpretation of the fight doesn't change that. Cap has taken DD to school, but it was circumstantial as most of if not all of their fights are.DD was distracted? Uh DD was out for blood... Elektra just wanted to watch some TV... if you seriously can't interpret that right you're out of your mind. The first two hits where totally Matt attacking someone who was in no mood to fight, the next two were while she was in mid sentence.. no yelling.. just calm.. mid sentence. She handled DD. "nuff said".
Dood! You could ask a five year old who does better and they'd tell you Wolverine! W. T. F. And Elektra was calm? Those exclamation points and cut-off sentences towards the end certainly don't look calm. But then again, what's the point of asserting that Elektra was calm about it in the first place? So was Wolverine! Are you even reading the same scans as us? Daredevil turned in mid-fight to scream at Milla to run. And he got four hits on Elektra who ended up with a bloody face for her trouble. Wolverine got kicked once by DD and stuffed him in three panels. How is Elektra embarassing Matt worse? Seriously. When a point turns against Wolverine, you just go nuts, man. Cap has NEVER embarassed Matt. Ever. Your continued insistence does nothing to change that fact. Take off the Wolvie-goggles for just one second and look at those scans again. Now tell everyone in all serious honesty, that Elektra did better than Wolverine. Maybe once you take your Wolvie-goggles off you'll recognize that nobody has embarassed Daredevil like in that Typhoid Mary scene ever. And that is inconsistent. So by your standards, we throw it out, right? Oh no. You will continue to use it to serve your own purposes because you engage in double-standards. PHAIL.
Originally posted by jinzinWTH are you talking about? You never even proved in the first place that Wolverine was starving himself or depriving himself of sleep before going after Silver Samurai! I'm not proving a damn negative! You just assumed that in the three weeks of hiding before confronting Silver Samurai, Wolverine didn't eat or sleep at all? Where the hell do you get off assuming all this crap? Single serving snacks? Jetlag? GAWD.
Which he had even more ample time to do BEFORE he fought Silver Samurai.. so why didn't he?
Originally posted by jinzin[/b][/quote]OH BULLCRAP!!!!!
Uh No... INCLUDING ME.......
You really need to read the entirety of these arguments instead of the parts you like...
>>>>
[QUOTE=10855588]Originally posted by jinzin
[B]No, I don't believe Wolverine didn't get a wink of sleep, nor that he didn't eat a morsel of food between the Sam and the Cap fight....
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=486007&pagenumber=3 :
Originally posted by jinzin
Captain America Gauntlet: Wolverine has been on a nonstop crusade since learning about his entire past history; He hasn't slept, hasn't eaten, and he's overall in bad shape
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Do you really expect me to believe that he didn't eat or rest between Montreal and Serbia?
Originally posted by jinzin
Considering the fact that he left from America to Japan in the first place to find Silver Samurai without food and rest? Yes.
Originally posted by masterbruce
was it stated that he hadn't slept or eaten anything for 4 weeks onpanel?
Originally posted by jinzin
Yeah he was carrying a NONSTOP war against the people that wronged him.. he had to eat his own arm for sustanance for god's sakes...
Jinzin, four words for you:
