Originally posted by xmarksthespot
'Cos it would kinda be like stealing Flash's shtick. I'm sure Superman could block bullets with his wrists too, but I don't think Wonder Woman would be happy about it.
Great excuse even though superman can bullet and bullets actually hurts diana thats why she use her bracelets.
Originally posted by srankmissingninLogan has survived being partly incinerated without being koed in other stories. So what? He was obviously in shock. And how do you know for sure that he didn't faint shortly after screaming for help? The action cut away from Wolverine. And how do you know for sure that Logan was koed when he was hit by Hulk or when he landed in Rhode Island? I'm pretty sure the action cut away from Wolverine again.
True. I've just gotten used to saying Shang > Dany and Matt because of all the people saying "Shang Chi sucks," which pisses me off so I hype him a bit to make my point.I discredit the chop because the same writer [b]in the same story arch
had Wolverine get 50% of his body incinerated and the Hulk punch Wolverine into a different state without Logan getting koed. [/B]
Daredevil just incapacitated him briefly with a nerve strike to the throat. Elektra paralyzed Wolverine with a sai stab in the back. Cap crushed Logan's tendons and prevented him from unsheathing his claws for a few minutes. An opponent can cause temporary localized damage to Wolverine that will give him/her a significant advantage in a fight. It's been done before.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0👆
Logan has survived being partly incinerated without being koed in other stories. So what? He was obviously in shock. And how do you know for sure that he didn't faint shortly after screaming for help? The action cut away from Wolverine. And how do you know for sure that Logan was koed when he was hit by Hulk or when he landed in Rhode Island? I'm pretty sure the action cut away from Wolverine again.Daredevil just incapacitated him briefly with a nerve strike to the throat. Elektra paralyzed Wolverine with a sai stab in the back. Cap crushed Logan's tendons and prevented him from unsheathing his claws for a few minutes. An opponent can cause temporary localized damage to Wolverine that will give him/her a significant advantage in a fight. It's been done before.
Originally posted by carver9I'm not sure what you're trying to imply, yes I know "he can bullet". He doesn't need to block bullets with his wrists nor does he necessarily need to always fight like the Flash does. It doesn't make him incapable of doing either. The bracelet trademark move and her inexplicable weakness to force applied over small areas is an illogical shtick that's part of her character. It's her "thing." Other characters doing it, regardless of whether they need to or not, would be like stealing her thunder. I'm sure several other characters can paint themselves Silver and ride around on a surfboard but I doubt you'll see it often in a comic.
Great excuse even though superman can bullet and bullets actually hurts diana thats why she use her bracelets.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0You're missing the point. In other stories, Wolverine has taken far worse damage to the throat area without hinderance whatsoever.
Logan has survived being partly incinerated without being koed in other stories. So what? He was obviously in shock. And how do you know for sure that he didn't faint shortly after screaming for help? The action cut away from Wolverine. And how do you know for sure that Logan was koed when he was hit by Hulk or when he landed in Rhode Island? I'm pretty sure the action cut away from Wolverine again.Daredevil just incapacitated him briefly with a nerve strike to the throat. Elektra paralyzed Wolverine with a sai stab in the back. Cap crushed Logan's tendons and prevented him from unsheathing his claws for a few minutes. An opponent can cause temporary localized damage to Wolverine that will give him/her a significant advantage in a fight. It's been done before.
But in the same story arc under the same writer Wolverine has a completely different depiction of his HF that borders the opposite side of polarity from going down to a throat chop/pinch/strike. Aside from Ennis having flat out stated is bias, he was writing Wolverine's HF up and down within his own stories to such disimilar degrees that it was purely for the purpose of positioning Logan away from Pun as a threat for the story, it's by definition PIS.
We don't know that Wolverine wasn't incapacited from the rocket, but he wasn't doubled over in pain either. In shock? Maybe, but most likely not going by past feats. Either way is speculation. Was he KO'd? Dunno, seeing how he took off to heal elswhere it's unlikely as well.
When he got punched we see the moment he lands into the water and he immediately kills a random duck as he exits the pond (which of course shows Ennis total disregard for his character nevermind his powers and abilities as well). It doesn't seem like he was KOed or even affected.
As for your examples, against Elektra the P-point only worked when he had pressure applied to it, once removed he was fine.
With Cap, his HF was in a rut, he'd been going nonstop since the end of HOM. Way has been consistently trying to write Wolverine's HF down to play up the stakes in the stories.
Way's the same guy who wrote Wolverine healing from a skeleton in minutes the first time he did it, healin from ground zero nuke, and taking all the damage DP could dish refusing to go down til he was shot in the brain... It's pretty clear Way interprets his HF to be on a level above needing a couple minutes to heal crushed tendons. Wolverine also had problems with his bloody nose from Nuke. 😬
Nerve strikes and the sort can work on Logan but it has to be a load of them, not just one.
Originally posted by Apolloknight
I haven't read through the whole thread but, why is everybody arguing logans healing factor? I thought is was null for this fight?
Wolverine haters and Dardevil supporters: Wolverine relies on his healing factor in fights; he has no real showings of skill; Wolverine always has that advantage
Wolverine supporters: Its not that big of an advantage, alot of times he's pretty messed up when he fights them. Some of the feats he has you wouldn't NEED the HF to pull off.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I'm not sure what you're trying to imply, yes I know "he can bullet". He doesn't need to block bullets with his wrists nor does he necessarily need to always fight like the Flash does. It doesn't make him incapable of doing either. The bracelet trademark move and her inexplicable weakness to force applied over small areas is an illogical shtick that's part of her character. It's her "thing." Other characters doing it, regardless of whether they need to or not, would be like stealing her thunder. I'm sure several other characters can paint themselves Silver and ride around on a surfboard but I doubt you'll see it often in a comic.
So Im guessing since mimic can shoot blast out of his eyes he stealing superman shine. Or since wonder woman can fly just like superman and can lift large objects she is stealing his shine. What about supergirl, she basically do everything that superman does, is she stealing his shine. You do know that captain marvel on numerous of occasions caught bullets just like superman, is he stealing his shine. Thats a lame excuse. If superman can throw a 1000 punches per second and could beat someone before they could blink then he would have done it, flash has shown this throughout his career why doesnt the same thing happen for superman and please dont answer it with that lame excuse again.
Originally posted by carver9
My bad, I just read your post and I would like to respond to it but after you answer the question that Im about to ask then I'll leave you alone about this topic. Ok, you say that theres reasons on why he dont do it, would it make the fight boring, what reasons is it because flash did it and do it on a regular basis. You cant say that superman punch harder then flash because flash punches is like getting hit by a being that can punch through a white dwarf star. Why havent superman ever pulled a feat like this if he can punch someone a thousand times per secondhttp://www.turboimagehost.com/p/428454/Trinity03-008.jpg.html
It wasnt hard for flash to do.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
'Cos it would kinda be like stealing Flash's shtick. I'm sure Superman could block bullets with his wrists too, but I don't think Wonder Woman would be happy about it.
😆
that made my week...
Originally posted by carver9
So Im guessing since mimic can shoot blast out of his eyes he stealing superman shine. Or since wonder woman can fly just like superman and can lift large objects she is stealing his shine. What about supergirl, she basically do everything that superman does, is she stealing his shine. You do know that captain marvel on numerous of occasions caught bullets just like superman, is he stealing his shine. Thats a lame excuse. If superman can throw a 1000 punches per second and could beat someone before they could blink then he would have done it, flash has shown this throughout his career why doesnt the same thing happen for superman and please dont answer it with that lame excuse again.
and x is right. also, superman is just too damn nice for his own good... he won't get vicious, he's a completely different personality to wally... wally believes in the death penalty, clark treasures ALL life, even that of his enemies... clark is constantly hoping his enemy will calm down and see his side of things...
wally just wants you to get ktfo... he has no problems going all out and smashing an enemy's face in if it means stopping them...
also, bar an infinite mass punch, imo clark does hit harder than wally, FAR harder, if he wants to...
Originally posted by jinzinSo? Wolverine's taken worse damage to his back and his forearms, didn't stop Elektra and Cap from using precise or localized damage to hinder Wolverine.
You're missing the point. In other stories, Wolverine has taken far worse damage to the throat area without hinderance whatsoever.
Originally posted by jinzinEnnis never "flat out stated his bias." Show me a link to an interview. Show me ANYTHING that Ennis has ever said, that states he was biased. Prove it to me. It's a myth spawned from the storyline by angry Wolverine fans. Trust me. I've looked for it, no such interview exists despite my fervent searches. If you have it, by all means, post it. Because I've been looking for it for months and have found nothing. It's not PIS because Wolverine's been incapacitated by a sai stab in the back. Wolverine crumpled over when Ord slashed his guts. Precise striking/stabbing/slashing can incapacitate Wolverine briefly. That's all that happened with the Daredevil feat.
But in the same story arc under the same writer Wolverine has a completely different depiction of his HF that borders the opposite side of polarity from going down to a throat chop/pinch/strike. Aside from Ennis having flat out stated is bias, he was writing Wolverine's HF up and down within his own stories to such disimilar degrees that it was purely for the purpose of positioning Logan away from Pun as a threat for the story, it's by definition PIS.
Originally posted by jinzinHow can you be doubled over in pain when you have no legs or guts? He was in shock, screams for help and you don't see him again until he's healed. I don't remember the scene you're referring to, but Wolverine has survived falling from great heights before and retaining consciousness after impact. So what?
We don't know that Wolverine wasn't incapacited from the rocket, but he wasn't doubled over in pain either. In shock? Maybe, but most likely not going by past feats. Either way is speculation. Was he KO'd? Dunno, seeing how he took off to heal elswhere it's unlikely as well.When he got punched we see the moment he lands into the water and he immediately kills a random duck as he exits the pond (which of course shows Ennis total disregard for his character nevermind his powers and abilities as well). It doesn't seem like he was KOed or even affected.
Originally posted by jinzinWolverine's healing factor was not in a rut. I remember reading about your assertion that Wolverine was going non-stop without food or rest since House of M. That's garbage and you know it. I've recently reread Wolverine #36-40 and Wolverine: Origins #1-6. In Wolverine #37-38, Wolverine goes to Japan, fights Silver Samurai and swims to a boat. There he eats his arm because he is starving. He wakes up and the boat has taken him to Canada. At this point, YES, Wolverine's healing factor is in a rut. Arguably no food, no rest, non-stop.
As for your examples, against Elektra the P-point only worked when he had pressure applied to it, once removed he was fine.
With Cap, his HF was in a rut, he'd been going nonstop since the end of HOM. Way has been consistently trying to write Wolverine's HF down to play up the stakes in the stories.
Way's the same guy who wrote Wolverine healing from a skeleton in minutes the first time he did it, healin from ground zero nuke, and taking all the damage DP could dish refusing to go down til he was shot in the brain... It's pretty clear Way interprets his HF to be on a level above needing a couple minutes to heal crushed tendons. Wolverine also had problems with his bloody nose from Nuke. 😬Nerve strikes and the sort can work on Logan but it has to be a load of them, not just one.
That trend doesn't keep up at all. In Wolverine #38, he travels to Serbia. He had convinced smugglers operating out of Montreal to take him there. During this travel, Wolverine has found new clothes and is carrying a backpack. Do you really expect me to believe that he didn't eat or rest between Montreal and Serbia? PLEASE. At the end of Wolverine #38, he fights Winter Soldier and gets put down by two bullets to the chest. After Winter Soldier waits for him to wake up, he explains his part in murdering Itsu. Afterwards, Wolverine hooks up with some connections, grabs some supplies (including a yellow/brown suit) and travels from Serbia to Japan. Do you honestly expect me to believe that he didn't eat or rest between Serbia and Japan? In Japan, he retrieves the Muramasa blade.
And that leads us straight to the opening scene in Wolverine: Origins #1. From here, Wolverine travels from Japan to Washington DC to confront the Secretary in the White House. Are you arguing that he didn't eat or sleep between Japan and USA? In Wolverine: Origins #2, we see Wolverine has travelled to Brooklyn, NY and is sitting in a hideout in civvies while listening to the news. After hearing about the massacre in Lai Chi, he travels to Vietnam. This is where he confronts Nuke. Between Washington DC to Brooklyn to Vietnam, you expect me to believe he didn't eat or rest?
In Wolverine: Origins #3, the only thing that Nuke does to Wolverine prior to Cap's arrival is punch him in the face, rifle butt his chin and step on his face a couple of times. He also tries to use the grenade launcher attached to his rifle, but Wolverine kicks it in another direction and is sent a few dozen feet away by the shock of the blast. This is exactly where Cap tosses his shield at Wolverine's wrist and comes in. A few blows and a missed blast that tosses Wolverine a few yards and you expect me to believe that Wolverine's healing factor was in a rut by the time Cap fights him? No thanks.
And what do you mean he had a problem with a bloody nose? Just because he had a blood stream from his nose onto his upper lip? When you have Cap punching and shield bashing your face and you never get a chance to wipe away the blood from your upper lip... it's not beyond reason to think that the blood would still be there. Oh and of course, Cap then slashed him with the Muramasa. Cmon. Daredevil's done it, Elektra's done it, Ord's done it, Cap's done it. You can incapacitate Wolverine briefly with localized precise damage infliction. And Wolverine's healing factor was pretty much fine during EACH of those instances.
Originally posted by Raoul
😆that made my week...
and x is right. also, superman is just too damn nice for his own good... he won't get vicious, he's a completely different personality to wally... wally believes in the death penalty, clark treasures ALL life, even that of his enemies... clark is constantly hoping his enemy will calm down and see his side of things...
wally just wants you to get ktfo... he has no problems going all out and smashing an enemy's face in if it means stopping them...
also, bar an infinite mass punch, imo clark does hit harder than wally, FAR harder, if he wants to...
So youre basically saying that if superman did that to darksied, Titus, konvikt, and despero, that would kill them. I kinda disagree with that and I think that superman know that these durable beings can take that and some could walk through that. I understand that he is a nice person but do you think that he would rather take that approach or let kalibak knock him out and then proceed in destroying the city.
And by the way, superman has gotten vicious on numerous of occasions, especially when he fought zod and thought back when zod broke his jaw, he got furious but again fail to show that amazing speed.
Flash>Superman punches and this came from wonderwoman own mouth when she stated she never felt a punch like that in her life when zoom punched her and zoom=Flash.
I wouldn't say that Ennis has any bias against wolverine, or even superheroes. Its more of a personal preference. He prefers ultra violent things with guns like punisher, because that's what he grew up on. He's actually bee rather nice to wolverine, and the draw to writing about wolverine is the abuse he can put wolverine through and have him survive.
IMHO, its a toss us. DD is tough and second to none with pressure points and wolverine is good when he's actually fighting smart and not charging straight in relying solely on his healing factor and skeleton.
I would say 5/5 split; it however wouldn't be wrong for either side to give a 6/10 in either contestant's favor.
Its that close IMO.
Originally posted by carver9
So youre basically saying that if superman did that to darksied, Titus, konvikt, and despero, that would kill them. I kinda disagree with that and I think that superman know that these durable beings can take that and some could walk through that. I understand that he is a nice person but do you think that he would rather take that approach or let kalibak knock him out and then proceed in destroying the city.
but thats the thing, how many times does superman get knocked out for any significant period of time? It almost never happens, as he's either only out for seconds, or just gets banged up, but is still conscious...
also, he doesn't try to blitz darkseid or despero, as their powerful enough that it wouldnt have that much of an effect, yet he's still beaten them in combat...
And by the way, superman has gotten vicious on numerous of occasions, especially when he fought zod and thought back when zod broke his jaw, he got furious but again fail to show that amazing speed.
that zod was almost every bit superman's equal, trying to blitz wouldnt have made much of a difference... its not a lack of speed on superman's part, its a lack of considerable difference between both men's speed...
Flash>Superman punches and this came from wonderwoman own mouth when she stated she never felt a punch like that in her life when zoom punched her and zoom=Flash.
zoom > wally, by a decent amount, wally needed a boost just to keep up with him...
and one bit of dialogue by wonder woman is definitive proof? c'mon, seriously?
but thats the thing, how many times does superman get knocked out for any significant period of time? It almost never happens, as he's either only out for seconds, or just gets banged up, but is still conscious...
If I had amazing speed I would never purposely get hit. Majority everyone he fight he land a lick then they land a lick, its just that simple. When he fought kalibak and mantis, if he knew that he had enough speed to subdue them why would he let kalibak club him in the face. I also know that despero is superior to superman but if superman is so much faster then despero, why would superman let despero grab him by the head and ram his head to captain marvel. Do you think that a regular human could grab quick silver, I highly doubt that.
also, he doesn't try to blitz darkseid or despero, as their powerful enough that it wouldnt have that much of an effect, yet he's still beaten them in combat...
So since he rarely does the light speed attacks and never fight like flash why are you saying that it happens on a forum. Again I agree that he can blitz, get the first attack but after that thats when both will be hitting each other.
Got a question for you, who do you think is the better fighter wolverine or captain america? (Its a reason why Im asking you this.)
that zod was almost every bit superman's equal, trying to blitz wouldnt have made much of a difference... its not a lack of speed on superman's part, its a lack of considerable difference between both men's speed...
So when flash and zoom fight they fight like bricks. Lets say if quicksilver and speed demon fight, they are going to fight like bricks since both of them have super speed and it would be pointless. 😮
zoom > wally, by a decent amount, wally needed a boost just to keep up with him...
I agree with both sentences. No dispute with this.
Originally posted by carver9
If I had amazing speed I would never purposely get hit. Majority everyone he fight he land a lick then they land a lick, its just that simple. When he fought kalibak and mantis, if he knew that he had enough speed to subdue them why would he let kalibak club him in the face. I also know that despero is superior to superman but if superman is so much faster then despero, why would superman let despero grab him by the head and ram his head to captain marvel. Do you think that a regular human could grab quick silver, I highly doubt that.
kalibak surprised him, he said so himself... the problem is with superman himself... he so rarely sees the need to use the full extent of his abilities that he tends to not use them, as he assumes that he can take any hit thats dished out and keep up, and 99% of the time, he does...
the way he sees it, he can take what they throw at him, keep people safe, and maybe reason with his enemy so he doesn't have to hurt him. its no slight on his powers, he just has this insane need to fight fair... its well documented...
put it this way: two guys have guns. one guy has a bigger gun with a faster rate of fire, and knows that he has faster reflexes than the other guy. he also has full body armour, but he doesnt want to kill the other guy. so he tries to calm him down, so he doesnt end up smearing the guy's brains all over the road...
or like this, do you play sports? have you ever played a contact sport with a woman (of the non bedroom variety)? i've played football against women, and although im not exactly the hulk, i know for a fact im bigger, stronger and quicker than the average girl, but do i treat her as an equal? no. i dont tackle as hard as i can, i dont do anything to injure her.
sorry if that sounds sexist, its purely an example...
i'm not superman, and you're not superman... while either of us would not allow ourselves to be hit, he does, because he fights at his opponents level most of the time...
So since he rarely does the light speed attacks and never fight like flash why are you saying that it happens on a forum. Again I agree that he can blitz, get the first attack but after that thats when both will be hitting each other.
because superman, when allowing himself to not hold back, has shown himself more than capable of blitzing top tiers like doomsday... he just doesnt have to let himself not hold back that much, but when he has cut loose, he's been consistently shown to be quicker than most...
Got a question for you, who do you think is the better fighter wolverine or captain america? (Its a reason why Im asking you this.)
not really sure, i'd probably give logan the edge, because of the HF...
So when flash and zoom fight they fight like bricks. Lets say if quicksilver and speed demon fight, they are going to fight like bricks since both of them have super speed and it would be pointless. 😮
zoom was blitzing wally and jay garrick at the start of his arc, it was only through a boost that wally could keep up...
to us, they might be fighting at a million miles an hour, but to them, it might as well be a normal speed brawl...
