Originally posted by quanchi112
No,it doesnt. It suggests that in an alternate reality that Seid killed Yuga but we dont know the context.
That was not a suggeston it was the reality. I never suggested we knew the context, which is pretty irrelevant to my argument.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Yuga displayed such power do you really think a guy who has been beaten into submission by Superman can really defeat Yuga?
Ds has looked poor on a couple occasions against Supes -there's no denying that - but currently, he is back to his usual level. DONG showed what his knowledge can turn him into, which was a being capable of dominating the Source itself.
DS is undoubtedley more powerful than Superman, he can reality warp, erase people from existence, mind rape millions of top tiers at the same time, raise the dead at his whim, create powerful beings that rival the surfer and that can destroy supreme teams of top tiers. DS can do it all.
Not to mention Yuga already stated DS could beat him, so your opinion on that matter is irrelevant.
DS is a power house, he harnessed the OE in the infinity pit, he's harnessed the power of many pantheons of gods across the cosmos. He is what he is, one or two showings that contradict his high status in DC's cosmological hierarchy doesn't make him any less powerful. Recent stories have demonstrated that.
So unless you have somthing new to add this argument is pointless, Yuga has already stated DS can beat him, couple that with the knowledge DS now wields? And the son has clearly surpassed the father.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Yuga>Seid. Even with Seid's manipulations he still cant defeat Superman.
Seid's power is beyond Superman's. In DONG he ko'd him with one Omega beam and he willingly chose not to kill Supes, furthermore he had ecplised the Source by drawing power from it through his knowledge of the Soul Fire Equation. Again, ecplising Yuga in power. Darkseid>Yuga Khan.
Superman beating DS should be considered PIS IMO. Superman can't beat DS, he's a God. But he has to beat DS, because he's Superman. That's why Superman would beat Thanos if they were ever in the same comic. But isn't that how it should be? Would you want to see Gregory Peck from "To Kill A Mockingbird" butt-raped by Brad Pitt from "Seven?" I think not. PIS. Once again, DS.
Originally posted by AllanklesYou cant use this as evidence. Its about as convincing as Sentry stalemating Galactus. Context is everything in comics friend.
That was not a suggeston it was the reality. I never suggested we knew the context, which is pretty irrelevant to my argument.Ds has looked poor on a couple occasions against Supes -there's no denying that - but currently, he is back to his usual level. DONG showed what his knowledge can turn him into, which was a being capable of dominating the Source itself.
DS is undoubtedley more powerful than Superman, he can reality warp, erase people from existence, mind rape millions of top tiers at the same time, raise the dead at his whim, create powerful beings that rival the surfer and that can destroy supreme teams of top tiers. DS can do it all.
Not to mention Yuga already stated DS could beat him, so your opinion on that matter is irrelevant.
DS is a power house, he harnessed the OE in the infinity pit, he's harnessed the power of many pantheons of gods across the cosmos. He is what he is, one or two showings that contradict his high status in DC's cosmological hierarchy doesn't make him any less powerful. Recent stories have demonstrated that.
So unless you have somthing new to add this argument is pointless, Yuga has already stated DS can beat him, couple that with the knowledge DS now wields? And the son has clearly surpassed the father.
Seid's power is beyond Superman's. In DONG he ko'd him with one Omega beam and he willingly chose not to kill Supes, furthermore he had ecplised the Source by drawing power from it through his knowledge of the Soul Fire Equation. Again, ecplising Yuga in power. Darkseid>Yuga Khan.
Yes,with knowledge and power Ds proved he could outscheme yet lose due to Superman's interference to the Source. Even though Seid tried all this the Source employed Orion whom later killed Seid.
Seid was powered up when he took on Superman. Context. Seid has the power it takes to kill Yuga but couldnt pull it off imo. Yuga has more than enough power to kill Seid and Izaya at the same time.
Originally posted by tssclsNo,they are equals. Just because Seid is a god and Superman is a superhero that doesnt mean Seid is more powerful. I guess by this logic Supes cant ever beat Thor because he is a god. Horrible logic.
Superman beating DS should be considered PIS IMO. Superman can't beat DS, he's a God. But he has to beat DS, because he's Superman. That's why Superman would beat Thanos if they were ever in the same comic. But isn't that how it should be? Would you want to see Gregory Peck from "To Kill A Mockingbird" butt-raped by Brad Pitt from "Seven?" I think not. PIS. Once again, DS.
Originally posted by quanchi112
You cant use this as evidence. Its about as convincing as Sentry stalemating Galactus. Context is everything in comics friend.
I just did, and they are not the same thing. In one situation Darkseid did kill Yuga - irrefutably. Yuga said that Darkseid could defeat him - irrefutable. Darkseid commands the power of oblivion itself through complete control of the OE, Sentry has what again that would make him stand up to Galactus? Don't just throw terms like context when you quite clearly don't know how it applies here.
Sentry has herald level power, Darkseid has the power over oblivion, he's power is vast by comparison and much closer to Yuga's than Sentry's is to Galactus'. Context friend, that's how it applies.
The rest of the stuff you wrote is irrelevant, it's simply commentary that doesn't address the argument I made.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Seid was powered up when he took on Superman. Context.
Like that matters, I'm talking about his power in relation to the Source, he had eclipsed Yuga Khan.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Seid has the power it takes to kill Yuga but couldnt pull it off imo.
That is incredibly irrelevant, that "IMO" pretty much indicates how weak a rebuttal that is. All that matters is Yuga's opinion, you want to write fan fics about how it goes down, go right ahead. I'm dealing with the facts. Darkseid had the power to stop Yuga even before his current level of knowledge concerning manipulation of the Source.
Originally posted by quanchi112
No,they are equals. Just because Seid is a god and Superman is a superhero that doesnt mean Seid is more powerful. I guess by this logic Supes cant ever beat Thor because he is a god. Horrible logic.
You wish they were equals but that's not really the case. If WWH beats Strange does that make him an equal? Even though Orion has beaten DS before their power levels are vastly different. DS has demonstrated the significance of his godhood, Thor is only a godling by comparison just as there's a difference between a god like Highfather and Lightray. Under certain circumstances Lightray could well beat up Highfather, it wouldn't mean he commands the power that Highfather does though.
Originally posted by BadabingLies.
Strength - DSPower - DS
Brains - DS
DS wins.
Originally posted by AllanklesWe dont know how Seid killed Yuga and it wasnt in the main dcu. In the main dcu we saw them interact. Darkseid ran from him like a schoolgirl.
I just did, and they are not the same thing. In one situation Darkseid did kill Yuga - irrefutably. Yuga said that Darkseid could defeat him - irrefutable. Darkseid commands the power of oblivion itself through complete control of the OE, Sentry has what again that would make him stand up to Galactus? Don't just throw terms like context when you quite clearly don't know how it applies here.Sentry has herald level power, Darkseid has the power over oblivion, he's power is vast by comparison and much closer to Yuga's than Sentry's is to Galactus'. Context friend, that's how it applies.
The rest of the stuff you wrote is irrelevant, it's simply commentary that doesn't address the argument I made.
Like that matters, I'm talking about his power in relation to the Source, he had eclipsed Yuga Khan.
That is incredibly irrelevant, that "IMO" pretty much indicates how weak a rebuttal that is. All that matters is Yuga's opinion, you want to write fan fics about how it goes down, go right ahead. I'm dealing with the facts. Darkseid had the power to stop Yuga even before his current level of knowledge concerning manipulation of the Source.
You wish they were equals but that's not really the case. If WWH beats Strange does that make him an equal? Even though Orion has beaten DS before their power levels are vastly different. DS has demonstrated the significance of his godhood, Thor is only a godling by comparison just as there's a difference between a god like Highfather and Lightray. Under certain circumstances Lightray could well beat up Highfather, it wouldn't mean he commands the power that Highfather does though.
Regardless,if Darkseid has the power over oblivion why did Doomsday wreck him? Why did Superman wreck him? Why did Orion wreck him?
Sentry stalemating Galactus even it its true we dont know the context just like we dont know the context of Seid killing Yuga in an alternate reality.
Not hard to grasp this. WW Hulk can beat Strange and did due to the scenario. In a forum fight Strange takes him out. We dont even know how Seid took out Yuga. Its not in the main dcu anyways.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Regardless,if Darkseid has the power over oblivion why did Doomsday wreck him? Why did Superman wreck him? Why did Orion wreck him?
PIS? It's not like I've written the character. He has the power of Oblivion itself via the OE and one of his avatars stated he can't be beat physically, maybe we've seen the "real" Darkseid fewer times than we think.
I don't know, those showings do indeed contradict Darkseid's power level. The last time Supes defeated him, it was suggested that Supes couldn't beat him with brute force so he trapped him in the Source Wall, I think even though it was a loss they at least showed that DS' durability is beyond being compromised by physical attacks (they have to be metaphysical to really hurt him).
Originally posted by quanchi112
Sentry stalemating Galactus even it its true we dont know the context just like we dont know the context of Seid killing Yuga in an alternate reality.
You throw the word context then present an argument that has little relevance to the point I was making. Sentry is herald level, Darkseid is a skyfather as is Yuga Khan, the scenarios are not the same, regardless of the lack of context.
To further elaborate the difference Darkseid actually killed Yuga, we don't know if Sentry ever stalemated Galactus. Darkseid actually has the power to defeat Yuga.
Does that clarify things for you? Don't write a pointless rebuttal about context again, you clearly ignored context in your piss poor comparison.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Not hard to grasp this. WW Hulk can beat Strange and did due to the scenario. In a forum fight Strange takes him out. We dont even know how Seid took out Yuga. Its not in the main dcu anyways.
It wasn't a matter of grasping anything, I was just indicating that under certain plot induced scenarios the more powerful character can lose.
I know the forum rules (I don't need more commentary), I know about Yuga but you are clearly ignoring the supporting evidence like Darkseid having the power to beat Yuga before he had as much knowledge about manipulating the Source.
You're not really addressing anything in relevance to these supporting ideas (1. DS having power to stop Yuga and 2. DS having greater knowledge than Yuga on how to dominate and manipulate the Source).
Also DS couldn't directly confront Yuga because of the (Father/Son clause) which tied his hands until he found a way around it, on the other hand Yuga was brimming with tremendous power and DS hadn't anticipated the return of his imprisoned father, so he took the wisest course of action and retreated, DS is too efficient to compromise himself without securing a great plan first.
Originally posted by fangirl101
The best way to surmise Intelligence and Cunning between the two is to look at how intelligent thier adversaries are. Also look at the forces that mount agaisnt them, and how they obtain thier goals.
Originally posted by fangirl101
The best way to surmise Intelligence and Cunning between the two is to look at how intelligent thier adversaries are. Also look at the forces that mount agaisnt them, and how they obtain thier goals.
Basically. You have to analyze the context with which they achieved their goals. Not simply who was supposed to be tuff or whatever, if his advesaries are being tricked by school boy level strategems then it's obvious those feats aren't worth much as intelligence and cunning feats.
Originally posted by AllanklesWhen has the true Darkseid been shown? How do you kno wit was the true darkseid? Let me in on this secret. That was one statement that you are using to erase all of the other showings which completely contradict this. Such as Doomsday,Superman,and Orion. Sorry doesnt work that way.
PIS? It's not like I've written the character. He has the power of Oblivion itself via the OE and one of his avatars stated he can't be beat physically, maybe we've seen the "real" Darkseid fewer times than we think.I don't know, those showings do indeed contradict Darkseid's power level. The last time Supes defeated him, it was suggested that Supes couldn't beat him with brute force so he trapped him in the Source Wall, I think even though it was a loss they at least showed that DS' durability is beyond being compromised by physical attacks (they have to be metaphysical to really hurt him).
You throw the word context then present an argument that has little relevance to the point I was making. Sentry is herald level, Darkseid is a skyfather as is Yuga Khan, the scenarios are not the same, regardless of the lack of context.
To further elaborate the difference Darkseid actually killed Yuga, we don't know if Sentry ever stalemated Galactus. Darkseid actually has the power to defeat Yuga.
Does that clarify things for you? Don't write a pointless rebuttal about context again, you clearly ignored [B]context
in your piss poor comparison.It wasn't a matter of grasping anything, I was just indicating that under certain plot induced scenarios the more powerful character can lose.
I know the forum rules (I don't need more commentary), I know about Yuga but you are clearly ignoring the supporting evidence like Darkseid having the power to beat Yuga before he had as much knowledge about manipulating the Source.
You're not really addressing anything in relevance to these supporting ideas (1. DS having power to stop Yuga and 2. DS having greater knowledge than Yuga on how to dominate and manipulate the Source).
Also DS couldn't directly confront Yuga because of the (Father/Son clause) which tied his hands until he found a way around it, on the other hand Yuga was brimming with tremendous power and DS hadn't anticipated the return of his imprisoned father, so he took the wisest course of action and retreated, DS is too efficient to compromise himself without securing a great plan first. [/B]
No,the reason he trapped him into the source wall was so that hed stay out of trouble. He beat him down physically in that story. He also hammered him physically in apokolips now to the point of him submitting.
Darkseid isnt skyfather level. You have no feats to show he is at skyfather level. Your clearly reaching while this isnt fooling anyone at all. Skyfathers dont submit to Superman. Its just the way it is.
Sentry supposedly stalemated Galactus while Darkseis supposedly killed Yuga in another storyline. If Ds killed him we dont know how. If Sentry stalemated Galactus we dont know how. Thats the point. Galactus could have benn extremely weakened to the point of stalemating the Sentry. This cannot be used as valid evidence because it lacks context and in Darkseid's case happened in an alternate reality.
You citing the Seid killing Yuga feat is laughable at best.
Darkseid does have the power to kill Yuga but Yuga can smoke Seid and the rest of the new gods due to his superiority over the Source.
Since when has Seid displayed the outright domination that Yuga displayed when he crushed the new gods. Never.
Thanos is clearly the more successful,the more cunning,and the more intelligent of these two. Clearly.
Originally posted by AllanklesYou either win or you lose. Darkseid loses while Thanos wins. Its that simple.
Basically. You have to analyze the context with which they achieved their goals. Not simply who was supposed to be tuff or whatever, if his advesaries are being tricked by school boy level strategems then it's obvious those feats aren't worth much as intelligence and cunning feats.
Originally posted by quanchi112
You either win or you lose. Darkseid loses while Thanos wins. Its that simple.
That really doesn't matter here. You don't have to be smart to win. This is about the depth of their plotting and scheming as well as their intellect.
To me DS is without doubt the better schemer, pure intelligence is harder one, do you look at the quality of the writing the depth of thought put into every characters schemes? Is that what determines it? Or level of tech creations, in that case DS has the entropy aegis. Doom tubes, devices that can trap beings with multiversal power etc
Again you only need to read Countdown or DONG to know DS is the better schemer, he plays people like chess pieces and he even uses the smallest pawn to further his goals, in that respect he is more subtle than Thanos, DS IS generally more hands-off.