Dooku vs Maul and Ventress

I'm sorry, but since when has Maul been in the same duelling league as one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty five thousand year history? Count Dooku has decades more duelling experience than Maul; against the likes of Yoda and Mace Windu. Not to mention that Tyranus has mastered Makashi - the ultimate duelling form - to its highest possible degree.

Maul is good, but no where near as good as Dooku with a blade.

As for the match up, Dooku could potentially win without having to ignite his saber.

I'm really getting sick of this. Makashi =/= instant saber duel win.

It is a style of fighting- akin to pitting Tae-Kwon-Do (sp- I know) against Karate or Judo or Hapkido- they are all different ways to get to your goal: your opponent on the ground.

I never claimed that Makashi would provide the Count with an instant win, so don't imply I did. But considering that Makashi was created for the sole purpose of lightsaber duelling, it is naturally going to be more effective than the other forms.

Ox, you're aware Maul utterly destroyed the Order's battle master with technical skills 'Seconds to None,' Anoon Bondara?

Someone brought up Makashi in the Shaak Ti thread; I don't like that its practitioners are automatically assumed to be better duelists than those who use other styles. Yes it was designed specifically for dueling, but that does not mean that a Makashi master will always beat a Soresu or Ataru master. I don't like the reverence it is held in. Is it a plus? Yes. It can be a disadvantage in some situations- like against a physically superior foe, or against superior numbers.

I just don't like it as a cure all for fans of characters who use Makashi.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ox, you're aware Maul utterly destroyed the Order's battle master with technical skills 'Seconds to None,' Anoon Bondara?

...and then got cut in half by an enraged padawan.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Someone brought up Makashi in the Shaak Ti thread; I don't like that its practitioners are automatically assumed to be better duelists than those who use other styles. Yes it was designed specifically for dueling, but that does not mean that a Makashi master will always beat a Soresu or Ataru master. I don't like the reverence it is held in. Is it a plus? Yes. It can be a disadvantage in some situations- like against a physically superior foe, or against superior numbers.

I just don't like it as a cure all for fans of characters who use Makashi.

Fair enough. But you acknowledge that by Makashi's very nature and purpose, that its user will benefit in a duel over someone who wields, say, Soresu?

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Fair enough. But you acknowledge that by Makashi's very nature and purpose, that its user will benefit in a duel over someone who wields, say, Soresu?

Hate to break it to you, but Maul also knows Makashi. He's a master of Juyo, which requires someone to be a 'high-level master of multiple forms.' It's also called 'the most difficult and demanding of all forms,' and says that for its opponents, 'Form VII [is] highly unpredictable in battle' and 'can lead to fantastic power and skill.'

Maul's Juyo > Dooku's Makashi.

Don't be ridiculous. We're talking in terms of a lightsaber duel here; therefore Makashi is going to be more beneficial than Juyo. Period.

Maul may know Makashi (though I find it extremely unlikely, given his ferocious style of fighting), but he most certainly doesn't employ it in his duels. He uses Juyo, which is completely different in almost every possible way. Juyo was not the ultimate refinement in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat, and while deadly in its own right, cannot be perceived as a superior duelling form.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I'm sorry- when exactly did Dooku best Mace? Wasn't it as a Jedi? Vapaad gets a boost vs. Darksiders. I'd be willing to argue that Mace Vs. Tyranus would result in a Jedi victory.

Oh, it certainly would be, IMO- but only during the Clone Wars. However, when they fought in TPM, both were less experienced and lightsiders- ergo Mace is forced to rely on his (formidable) regular skill to duel Dooku. Mace and Qui-Gon were known to spar on multiple occasions, during which- despite Mace's superconducting loop not coming into play- they always stalemated the other.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Maul has (off the top of my head)

challenged Sidious in a saber duel (or at least his capacity to block all attacks- it can refer to skill or speed: take your pick),

When Maul was enraged, channeling his anger and attacked Sidious while he wasn't prepared. The instant Sidious recovered his ground, Maul was disarmed effortlessly.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Ripped through the Black sun,

Dooku did the same to Mandalorians.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Mastered Teras Ki martial arts, and integrated it with his style,

Dooku was the greatest Makashi practioner in the Jedi Order, and had practiced it for dozens of years with intensity- far beyond Maul's training time. There's also nothing to suggest that Maul's natural power > Dooku's natural power, considering that Dooku was renowned as the 'temple's greatest student' and a prodigy.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Defeated one of the most accomplished Duelists in 400 years,(Qui-Gon)
And
Defeated Anoon Bondara (the uber-skilled Jedi Watchman)

Anoon Bondara sparred with Mace and Qui-Gon (right?), and both evidently managed to cause him to doubt his position as the Order's most skilled swordsman.

Dooku also regularly beat Qui-Gon's equal.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Dooku's Feats are more numerous, but there can be no doubt that Maul's are impressive as well.

Oh, they certainly are. But not as impressive as Dooku's.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Vapaad is derivitave of Juyo, but Maul would not be facing Windu. He's fighting Dooku, who is most definitely not a master of Vapaad.

Mace was Dooku's regular sparring partner and friend- it is logical to assume that the actual style between the two is similar, considering Mace's superconducting loop would not come into play.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Maul uses a type of Martial Arts that may be disruptive to Dooku's controlled, refined Makashi. The unpredictable kicks, and generally more physical nature of any fight with Maul would put the octogenarian at a disadvantage.

Dooku definetly isn't shabby in the physical department, considering he was able to hurl Anakin across the room with a friggin' kick. And while that certainly is a strong point for Maul, I don't see it overcoming Dooku's incredible technical ability, finesse, and skill. Oh, and his ability to use lethal force attacks are close quarters, too.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Hate to break it to you, but Maul also knows Makashi. He's a master of Juyo, which requires someone to be a 'high-level master of multiple forms.' It's also called 'the most difficult and demanding of all forms,' and says that for its opponents, 'Form VII [is] highly unpredictable in battle' and 'can lead to fantastic power and skill.'

Maul's Juyo > Dooku's Makashi.

Not saying Maul would win, but for some reason i can see Maul bringing out a lot of fear in Dooku.

Dooku would beat Maul 1 on 1 in a close fight.

Originally posted by bwcy
Dooku would beat Maul 1 on 1 in a close fight.

Well Vader did not beat Maul so easily. In fact Vader nearly got killed. I would say Vader is above Dooku force wise.

So I should say Dooku would beat Maul 1 on 1 in a close saber fight. 😄

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Don't be ridiculous. We're talking in terms of a lightsaber duel here; therefore Makashi is going to be more beneficial than Juyo. Period.

Maul may know Makashi (though I find it extremely unlikely, given his ferocious style of fighting), but he most certainly doesn't employ it in his duels. He uses Juyo, which is completely different in almost every possible way. Juyo [b]was not the ultimate refinement in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat, and while deadly in its own right, cannot be perceived as a superior duelling form. [/B]

You need to be a high level master of multiple forms in order to even begin training in Juyo. Maul was a master of Juyo (Fightsaber). What form is Makashi? Oh yeah – Form II. Safe to say Maul knows it. Form II isn't called 'the most difficult and demanding of all forms' and 'can lead to fantastic power and skill.' Juyo is (Jedi vs. Sith). And then there is something which Yoda says:

”Six there were for generations of Jedi. The seventh, is not well-known. Powerful form it is. Deadliest of all.” (Shatterpoint).

So, yes. Form VII, Juyo and Vaapad, is the deadliest lightsaber form, and Maul is a master of it and Teras Kasi.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Oh, it certainly would be, IMO- but only during the Clone Wars. However, when they fought in TPM, both were less experienced and lightsiders- ergo Mace is forced to rely on his (formidable) regular skill to duel Dooku. Mace and Qui-Gon were known to spar on multiple occasions, during which- despite Mace's superconducting loop not coming into play- they always stalemated the other.

I am nearly 100% certain that while sparring, Mace never used Vaapad in his duels. His test partners were Sora and Depa. It was rarely used and very dangerous (Jedi vs. Sith) so I see no reason why Mace would use it unnecessarily and expose himself to the Dark Side needlessly. So, while not using Vaapad, only Yoda and Dooku were able to 'overcome him in battle' – yet with it, presumably he was undefeated (Power of the Jedi Sourcebook).

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
When Maul was enraged, channeling his anger and attacked Sidious while he wasn't prepared. The instant Sidious recovered his ground, Maul was disarmed effortlessly.

Since you're Faunus' apprentice, and I'm back as his avatar, I'm not going to nail you too hard for this. Sidious was in fact the one who challenged him to the duel...just after being hunted by assassin droids on an abandoned world for an entire month, being exhausted and wounded. Of course Maul lost. Sidious intentionally taunted him – he wanted Maul angry enough to want to kill him, as that was his final test to become a Sith Lord.

'Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all. Eventually Maul spent his fury, and Darth Sidious still stood. Maul prepared himself for death – but Sidious only laughed. By giving into his rage and hatred to kill his own master – by wanting to kill his own master – Maul had in fact passed the final test.' (Dark Side Sourcebook)

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Dooku did the same to Mandalorians.

How many? Maul single-handedly slew 'thousands' of Black Sun soldiers and every vigo, including a powerful Nightsister bodyguard. Unassisted (didn't Dooku have droid backup?). When they were fully aware that he was coming and were expecting him (Darth Maul).

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Dooku was the greatest Makashi practioner in the Jedi Order, and had practiced it for dozens of years with intensity- far beyond Maul's training time. There's also nothing to suggest that Maul's natural power > Dooku's natural power, considering that Dooku was renowned as the 'temple's greatest student' and a prodigy.

Maul was a master of Form VII, called the deadliest form of all (Fightsaber/Shatterpoint/Jedi vs. Sith). Furthermore, Maul was referred to as one of the deadliest Sith apprentices in history (Complete Visual Dictionary), and Dooku acknowledges Maul's skill when he states: ”Maul had been an animal. A skilled animal, but a beast nonetheless.” (Revenge of the Sith). That's quite the concession coming from Dooku, when you consider Dooku's hatred and automatic inferiority for anything non-human. Furthermore, Maul was not only trained in Sith lore, but in the Jedi arts, too. Anytime he relaxed his guard, his master would attempt to kill him. This treatment over the course of, what, at least 15 years turned Maul into 'a perfect Sith weapon' (Dark Side Sourcebook). He outclassed Anoon Bondara, the most technically skilled duelist in the Jedi Order at that time (which Dooku was a part of), in a matter of seconds (Cloak of Deception). He also easily bests Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's greatest apprentice, a lightsaber prodigy in his own right, and near equal of a circa TPM Mace Windu – while simultaneously owning a practically knighted Obi-Wan...all while he was hampered with an ankle injury (The Phantom Menace). And let's not forget about his absolute drumming of a peak OT Darth Vader, the guy who is 80% of Palpatine in power and who was a skilled enough duelist to create a unique form of his own – a modified Form V (Resurrection/Fightsaber).

I doubt Dooku's considerable, but ultimately inferior power and skill will be a problem.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Anoon Bondara sparred with Mace and Qui-Gon (right?), and both evidently managed to cause him to doubt his position as the Order's most skilled swordsman.

So he's modest, like Obi-Wan. The narrator still says he's the most skilled duelist in the Order and probably the Jedi Temple Battlemaster (Shadow Hunter).

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Dooku also regularly beat Qui-Gon's equal.

And Maul beat Qui-Gon. Pretty easily. While he was assisted by Obi-Wan. I don't see an issue there. 😐

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Oh, they certainly are. But not as impressive as Dooku's.

Debatable. Dooku was absolutely destroyed by Anakin (Revenge of the Sith). Maul proved his dueling skills were superior to a peak OT Darth Vader – who had more technical skill than Anakin did as well as a vastly superior command of the Force (Resurrection). Not only that, but in his duel with his master, Sidious 'barely deflected' Maul's blows and Maul 'nearly bested' him (Dark Side Sourcebook). We don't get to see a duel between Dooku and Sidious, but Dooku seems to always be in constant awe of him and his power. And if we take Dooku's duels with Yoda into account, and then Yoda's duel with Sidious...it's pretty clear that Dooku would've fared far less well than Maul did against him.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Mace was Dooku's regular sparring partner and friend- it is logical to assume that the actual style between the two is similar, considering Mace's superconducting loop would not come into play.

I think you were saying that Juyo and Vaapad are similar in form? I would agree. However, as I said, I disagree that Mace regularly sparred with Dooku using Vaapad. He only regularly uses it against Sora while developing it, and Depa. Mace notes it's very dangerous to use and does not take it so lightly that he'd use it for simple sparring (Jedi vs. Sith). Also, though, Maul integrated his mastery of Teras Kasi into his mastery of Juyo, which turned it into something far more deadly than your typical Juyo (Fightsaber).

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Dooku definetly isn't shabby in the physical department, considering he was able to hurl Anakin across the room with a friggin' kick. And while that certainly is a strong point for Maul, I don't see it overcoming Dooku's incredible technical ability, finesse, and skill. Oh, and his ability to use lethal force attacks are close quarters, too.

I would certainly say that Maul's physical abilities dwarf Dooku's. Master of the “steel hands” martial art and in peak physical condition for his age (22)...while Dooku was physically a man half his age (41?). Maul was also a 'wizard of the Force' and trained by Sidious his entire life in both Sith lore and the Jedi arts (Shadow Hunter(?)/Dark Side Sourcebook). He's no slouch in the Force department. He also walked through a Nightsister's Force Lightning, so there's a possibility of him being able to do such a thing in this battle (Darth Maul). Not only that, but many people forget that Maul uses a Sith lanvarok, which he can use to fling several sharp discs at Dooku (and guide them with the Force) – if nothing else than to at least disrupt the Count's focus (New Essential Guide to Weapons & Technology).

Maul is, simply put – amazing. His saber skills are superior to Dooku's, he uses a deadlier form, he's modified that deadly form to make it even more deadly, and his supposed inferiority in the Force didn't harm him in the least against someone who was 80% of OT-era Palpatine's power, so I don't see why it should here. The team takes the win.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So let me get this straight: Maul's incomplete form versus the man who outdueled the creator of Vappad. Dooku's Makashi was enough to outduel Mace by the time of TPM. And by AOTC he has recieved Sith training to top it all off 😛

Juyo is only an incomplete form to the Jedi, because they couldn't use most of its techniques and movements. Hence why Mace decided to “complete” it, yet it calls it something entirely different – Vaapad (Jedi vs. Sith). Darth Maul is a full master of Juyo and Teras Kasi, and has blended the two seemlessly (Fightsaber).

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not saying Maul would win, but for some reason i can see Maul bringing out a lot of fear in Dooku.

Way to go out on a limb there, Sids. 😛

Enyalus, your constant and blatant implications that Darth Maul is on par with Count Dooku in regards to Force power, Force potential, and Force mastery are beyond annoying and are among the most baseless stances ever made on this forum.

Be a good sport and drop them before you make an ass out of yourself. And Teras Kasi + Juyo =/= Vaapad, Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Gideon
Enyalus, your constant and blatant implications that Darth Maul is on par with Count Dooku in regards to Force power, Force potential, and Force mastery are beyond annoying and are among the most baseless stances ever made on this forum.

Gideon, have you read what I said? Because, I never once stated nor argued that Maul was on par with Dooku in any of those areas. Although I do believe his potential is on par or surpasses him. He was only 22, afterall. But I even gave Dooku the advantage in Force power and mastery in my assessment.

Originally posted by Gideon
Be a good sport and drop them before you make an ass out of yourself. And Teras Kasi + Juyo =/= Vaapad, Jesus Christ.

Again, I never argued such a thing. Ever. Quit misrepresenting what I state. Please. 😛

Originally posted by Enyalus
Gideon, have you read what I said? Because, I never once stated nor argued that Maul was on par with Dooku in any of those areas. Although I do believe his potential is on par or surpasses him. He was only 22, afterall. But I even gave Dooku the advantage in Force power and mastery in my assessment.

From you:

"...and [Maul's] supposed inferiority in the Force didn't harm him in the least against someone who was 80% of OT-era Palpatine's power, so I don't see why it should here."

There is no "supposed" about it. Dooku's miles and miles and miles and miles (ad infinitum) ahead of Maul in Force mastery. Miles.

Not to mention that the Prophets mentioned that Vader could have destroyed Maul and themselves but wouldn't due to the "nagging doubt." They were clearly referring to his command of the Force and he attempted to best Maul purely with lightsabers to prove superiority in all ways. Nothing indicates that Maul would ever fare that well again.

Again, I never argued such a thing. Ever. Quit misrepresenting what I state. Please. 😛

In response to Master Crimzon, you said this:

"Juyo is only an incomplete form to the Jedi, because they couldn't use most of its techniques and movements. Hence why Mace decided to “complete” it, yet it calls it something entirely different – Vaapad (Jedi vs. Sith). Darth Maul is a full master of Juyo and Teras Kasi, and has blended the two seemlessly (Fightsaber)."