Originally posted by Enyalus
As for the Count's domination of Ventress with his finger, wasn't that prior to her having any Jedi-type or Force training at all? If so, way to go, killing a Force neophyte.
she had jedi/force training when Dooku first met her, and was good enough at that time to give padawan anakin the fight of his life.
neway that finger dominate thing happened in Dark Rendezvous, just 6 months before ROTS. she was pretty much in her prime at that point and had killed many jedis. considering that and her fights with Anakin, and Obi1, that Force feat of Dookus was very impressive.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Also, if Ventress is such an 'extremely powerful Force user,' please feel free to list some of her feats with the Force.
does Maul actually have any pure Force feats?? if he does please tell. and I dnt mean quotes like "wizard of the force".. I mean actual feats because Obi1 has a few, and dooku disposed of him with a mere flick.
Originally posted by Enyalus
That some choose to argue that it is superior in dueling to Juyo, which was described as being the most difficult to master, the most powerful, and the deadliest, is sad.
you keep saying most powerful, and hardest to master as if that proves its the best for duelling. Soresu is the simplest form, and doesnt have any power really.. it just consisits of simple parries, dodges and blocks..
does that mean that soresu is the worst for duelling??
of course not. Its actually the BEST for Defense.. you can go on all day about how Juyo is more powerful and more difficult to master but that wnt change the fact that Soresu IS THE BEST for Defense.. likewise Makashi is the best for Fencing(blade to blade duelling).. It doenst matter if Juyo is more overall powerful and deadly e.t.c Thats Juyo's speciality and strength. of course being that deadly and dangerous added to someone whose a physical beast like Maul, is perfect to use the form to its optimum use, which is why I say Maul would very possibly be a match or superior to Dooku in a saber clash.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Especially when they only have that one quote to cling to - a quote which apparently has been misunderstood on KMC for quite a while.
and with Soresu theres just the one quote about IT being the Best for Defence. Thats what its designed for. So thats what its best for. so that quote is all we need. Same thing for Makashi and duelling.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
^In AOTC Anakin got KO'd because he charged in. In ROTS Dooku concentrated on Kenobi first, he was the seasoned Jedi Master, and one of the ones he told Grievous to retreat if he encountered him. Never is Anakin mentioned in that list. Kenobi in Dooku's eyes was the bigger threat
Really Dooku's thoughts in ROTS suggest otherwise.
Now the scene below subtly altered, though to the physical eye there was no change. Powered by the dark side, Dooku's perception took the measure of those below him with exhilarating precision.Kenobi was luminous, a transparent being, a window onto a sunlit meadow of the Force.
Skywalker was a storm cloud, flickering with dangerous lightning, building the rotation that threatens a tornado.
Obiwan never made Dooku feel like this. This is also right before Anakin is "in the zone" as some might say.
Skywalker leapt from the balcony. Even as the boy hurtled downward, Dooku felt a new twist in the currents of the Force between them, and he finally understood.He understood how Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long.
Skywalker was a natural.
There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training. He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it.
This boy had the gift of fury.
And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.
Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical.
Originally posted by Enyalus
I've already posted half a dozen quotes regarding Maul's power with the Force, to which even Qui-Gon was impressed with. That he doesn't use it and desires a purely physical victory does not mean that somehow he's going to be Force-raped by Dooku.
Half a dozen quotes? Where, exactly? You have posted nothing which indicates that Maul is prodigious in force prowess - and after looking through the last five pages, you have provided Maul with no force feats.
Why? Because he has none.
He dominated Darth Vader, who was capable of crushing an entire room with the Force, destroying a bridge, crushing a durasteel hut, and hurling away three large pillars...all without flicking the wrist or moving his hands at all.
A bridge? A durasteel hut? Three large pillars? Correct me if I'm wrong; but they seem to be non-living objects which have zero defense against the force.
[Dooku] Surely you can do better! [/Dooku]
As for the Count's domination of Ventress with his finger, wasn't that prior to her having any Jedi-type or Force training at all?
It was during Dark Rendezvous. So yes, Ventress had already received considerable training from Tyranus.
Also, if Ventress is such an 'extremely powerful Force user,' please feel free to list some of her feats with the Force.
She gave Anakin friggin' Skywalker the prominent scar down his face which is visible in the movies.
As for Makashi's 'ultimate refinement in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat' line, I've already mentioned what that means: The best and greatest possible development of elegant dueling. Which as we see from the nature of Makashi, is completely true. That some choose to argue that it is superior in dueling to Juyo, which was described as being the most difficult to master, the most powerful, and the deadliest, is sad. Especially when they only have that one quote to cling to - a quote which apparently has been misunderstood on KMC for quite a while. [/B]
You are intentionally misinterpreting the meaning of 'refinement', and it's quite embarrassing to watch.
re·fine
Inflected Form(s): re·fined; re·fin·ing
transitive verb
1 : to free (as metal, sugar, or oil) from impurities or unwanted material
2 : to free from moral imperfection : elevate
3 : to improve or perfect by pruning or polishing <refine a poetic style>
4 : to reduce in vigor or intensity
5 : to free from what is coarse, vulgar, or uncouth
intransitive verb
1 : to become pure or perfected
2 : to make improvement by introducing subtleties or distinctions
To become pure or perfected. That means that Makashi has perfected the art of lightsaber combat. But we must remember, that the quote is "ultimate refinement"- therefore out of all the forms which have refined duelling [Juyo included]; Makashi has done so to the highest possible degree.
The evidence is right there in front of you. I can see it. The majority of debaters here can see it. However you seem to be intent on manipulating the quote in order to benefit your argument. Sad, really.
As for your quote about Juyo being the deadliest form; I have already acknowledged that. However you assume that the concept of deadliest applies solely and directly to lightsaber combat. To put it bluntly - that's bullsh*t. Juyo was not made solely for lightsaber combat - it deflects blaster fire as well. So of course it will be more deadly than Makashi, for the simple fact that Makakshi is ineffective at blocking against blaster fire.
Unless you can prove that the term "deadliest" is in direct reference to lightsaber combat alone, then your argument is invalid.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
you keep saying most powerful, and hardest to master as if that proves its the best for duelling. Soresu is the simplest form, and doesnt have any power really.. it just consisits of simple parries, dodges and blocks..
does that mean that soresu is the worst for duelling??
"Originally, the principle of Form III was 'laserblast' deflection training. This Form maximizes defensive protection in a style characterized by tight, efficient movements that expose minimal target areas when compared with the relatively open style of some of the other forms...True masters of Form III have long been considered to be invincible; although not always able to overcome their adversaries, no Form III masters have ever been defeated."
So, there you go. Of course it isn't the worst. Because it's spelled out that it's far from the worst.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Hate to break it to you, but Maul also knows Makashi. He's a master of Juyo, which requires someone to be a 'high-level master of multiple forms.' It's also called 'the most difficult and demanding of all forms,' and says that for its opponents, 'Form VII [is] highly unpredictable in battle' and 'can lead to fantastic power and skill.'Maul's Juyo > Dooku's Makashi.
Old post I know, but a 'high-level master of multiple forms" doesn't necessarily equate to knowing Makashi. You see, multiple forms doesn't imply all forms.
Have to go with Maul & Ventress 6/10.
Although I think this team is inferior to Skywalker & Kenobi they will both be on the attack at all times and not standing around like Kenobi with his Soresu. I believe Maul alone would give Dooku a hell of a fight. Ventress by Obsession is deadly in her own right.
Sabers: Maul & Ventress 9/10
Force: Tyranus 8/10
All-Out: Maul & Ventress 6/10
Originally posted by Enyalus
"Originally, the principle of Form III was 'laserblast' deflection training. [b]This Form maximizes defensive protection in a style characterized by tight, efficient movements that expose minimal target areas when compared with the relatively open style of some of the other forms...True masters of Form III have long been considered to be invincible; although not always able to overcome their adversaries, no Form III masters have ever been defeated."[/B]
No form III masters have ever been defeated? Bullshit!!! What's the source for this apparently ludicrous quote?
Bane was winning against Kas'im's Soresu until he switched to fighting Bane with Jar'Kai. Cin Drallig was killed by Vader, but I believe Drallig was cut down while he was on the offensive. But still, he wasn't quick enough to switch forms to counter Vader.
And Kenobi was defeated by Dooku, but that was with use of the Force, and not via direct saber-to-saber combat.