Dooku vs Maul and Ventress

Started by Enyalus7 pages

Originally posted by Gideon
From you:

"...and [Maul's] supposed inferiority in the Force didn't harm him in the least against someone who was 80% of OT-era Palpatine's power, so I don't see why it should here."

There is no "supposed" about it. Dooku's miles and miles and miles and miles (ad infinitum) ahead of Maul in Force mastery. Miles.

Prove it.

Originally posted by Gideon
Not to mention that the Prophets mentioned that Vader could have destroyed Maul and themselves but wouldn't due to the "nagging doubt." They were clearly referring to his command of the Force and he attempted to best Maul purely with lightsabers to prove superiority in all ways. Nothing indicates that Maul would ever fare that well again.

Wrong. The Prophets mention that Vader 'could refuse the duel and attempt to destroy us all here and now. You might even succeed.' Furthermore, Vader uses the Force in his duel against Maul, so there goes that point, too.

Originally posted by Gideon
In response to Master Crimzon, you said this:

"Juyo is only an incomplete form to the Jedi, because they couldn't use most of its techniques and movements. Hence why Mace decided to “complete” it, yet it calls it something entirely different – Vaapad (Jedi vs. Sith). Darth Maul is a full master of Juyo and Teras Kasi, and has blended the two seemlessly (Fightsaber)."

Yes...I didn't mean to suggest that Teras Kasi + Juyo = Vaapad. I apologize if it sounded like that (which it still does not to me). Consider the part after I cite the source a separate paragraph or idea.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Prove it.

You don't quite match my commanding presence, even though you have a tendancy to borrow my commands. If you can't match the original, don't bother, please.

Count Dooku has been regarded as the Temple's greatest student (Dark Rendezvous), one of the most powerful and respected Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history and an even greater Lord of the Sith (Revenge of the Sith), was the greatest of the Lost Twenty because "the Force was so strong in him" (Attack of the Clones Visual Dictionary), and was identified as one of the Force's "most powerful practitioners" by the official databank.

Now, cite Maul's accolades for prodigious Force aptitude.

Wrong. The Prophets mention that Vader 'could refuse the duel and [b]attempt to destroy us all here and now. You might even succeed.' Furthermore, Vader uses the Force in his duel against Maul, so there goes that point, too.[/B]

He brings his upper tier Force abilities against Maul? Where?

Yes...I didn't mean to suggest that Teras Kasi + Juyo = Vaapad. I apologize if it sounded like that (which it still does not to me). Consider the part after I cite the source a separate paragraph or idea.

It did.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Prove it

Eh? did you see ROTS? he man handles a Jedi Master who is regarded as one of the most powerful Jedi of the PT era. On par with TPM Qui-Gon at least. Maul never demonstrates the ability when dueling Qui Gon and a Padawan Kenobi. Anakin got back kicked whilst Obi-Wan got handled with the force. Even in single combat with Qui-Gon multiple times he never manages to KO either of them with the ease Dooku does in ROTS. Not to mention Anakin's handling in the Clone Wars

Even though Dooku is the Unrivalled Master of Makashi, I still see Maul giving him serious trouble in the Saber department, possibly even matching Dooku for the following reasons:

1. Maul's saber skills were as good as they would ever get, as he was a "Warrior in his prime. Never to be any better" according to TPM novel.

and if you think about it, he completely mastered Juyo "the deadliest form", therefore was a "high level master of multiple other forms", and in combination to this he completely mastered this form with the use of a single lightsaber, the deadly double bladed weapon, or fighting with 2 blades"teras kasi", and also mastered martial arts and hand to hand combat. he was also physically a beast.

so in terms of saber and hand to hand combat there was really no where else for him to go or improve. His technical skill was definetely amongst those of the top-tier prequel jedis.

there was however a LONG way for him still to go in improving his Mastery of the Force. but give the guy a break. he was only 22!

2. Makashi's the best form for fencing. that is single blade to single blade duelling. thats what it was designed for- Fencing. So Mauls use of a Double Bladed weapon could prove to be too unorthodox for Dooku. No one ever said Makashi was the best for Blade to Staff fighting did they?? It wasnt designed for that.

3. Makashi's not gna be much help against Mauls Martal Arts which he combines with his saber fighting. And his kicks are powerful enough to knock massive droids to the floor.

Also does somebody want to provide evidence to me that Vapaad is better than Juyo (minus the whole superconducting loop thing).. cause according to the ROTS novel in Mace's fight with Sidious once the superconducting loop came into play and Mace matched Sidious in speed and power, they were completely EQUAL. the novel states how the fight could have gone on forever!

considering Sidious used Juyo and Mace Vapaad, it would seem the technical skill of both fighting forms were quite on par with each other.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I am nearly 100% certain that while sparring, Mace never used Vaapad in his duels. His test partners were Sora and Depa. It was rarely used and very dangerous (Jedi vs. Sith) so I see no reason why Mace would use it unnecessarily and expose himself to the Dark Side needlessly. So, while not using Vaapad, only Yoda and Dooku were able to 'overcome him in battle' – yet with it, presumably he was undefeated (Power of the Jedi Sourcebook).

Bull. Windu would not utilize Vaapad to its full potency against Dooku, Qui-Gon, or Yoda due to the fact that they are lightsiders. Vaapad can only form it's 'superconducting loop' by reflecting the dark side energies produced by the user's opponent- in this case, no energies are produced by 'em. There's no reason why Mace wouldn't use Vaapad's non-metaphysical abilities, considering that sparring is usually done with training sabers, and thus is not dangerous.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Since you're Faunus' apprentice, and I'm back as his avatar, I'm not going to nail you too hard for this.

Pfft. You're just his avatar, and I am his only worthy apprentice. He knows one day I will kill him and become the master. And then, you will be my avatar.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Sidious was in fact the one who challenged him to the duel...just after being hunted by assassin droids on an abandoned world for an entire month, being exhausted and wounded. Of course Maul lost. Sidious intentionally taunted him – he wanted Maul angry enough to want to kill him, as that was his final test to become a Sith Lord.

'Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he [b]nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all. Eventually Maul spent his fury, and Darth Sidious still stood. Maul prepared himself for death – but Sidious only laughed. By giving into his rage and hatred to kill his own master – by wanting to kill his own master – Maul had in fact passed the final test.' (Dark Side Sourcebook)
[/b]

That would be accurate if you hadn't ignored the fact that previous to Maul truly challenging Sidious, Sidious engaged him and effortlessly curbstomped him. After that, Sidious told Maul he was training another apprentice, causing Maul to go nuts and surprise Sidious by attempting to kill him- and even Maul's 'uber fury' wasn't enough the moment Sidious recovered from the shock.

Besides, I'd bet that Dooku would be capable of 'endangering' Sidious in a lightsaber duel, too. Not beat him, but give him something of a hard time.

Originally posted by Enyalus
How many? Maul single-handedly slew 'thousands' of Black Sun soldiers and every vigo, including a powerful Nightsister bodyguard. Unassisted (didn't Dooku have droid backup?). When they were fully aware that he was coming and were expecting him (Darth Maul).

Same applies to the Mandalorians. How truly dangerous are the Black Sun? Among those Dooku raped is Jango "I kill dozens of Jedi with my bare hands" Fett.

Originally posted by Enyalus
[BMaul was a master of Form VII, called the deadliest form of all (Fightsaber/Shatterpoint/Jedi vs. Sith). Furthermore, Maul was referred to as one of the deadliest Sith apprentices in history (Complete Visual Dictionary), and Dooku acknowledges Maul's skill when he states: ”Maul had been an animal. A skilled animal, but a beast nonetheless.” (Revenge of the Sith). That's quite the concession coming from Dooku, when you consider Dooku's hatred and automatic inferiority for anything non-human. Furthermore, Maul was not only trained in Sith lore, but in the Jedi arts, too. Anytime he relaxed his guard, his master would attempt to kill him. This treatment over the course of, what, at least 15 years turned Maul into 'a perfect Sith weapon' (Dark Side Sourcebook). He outclassed Anoon Bondara, the most technically skilled duelist in the Jedi Order at that time (which Dooku was a part of), in a matter of seconds (Cloak of Deception). He also easily bests Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's greatest apprentice, a lightsaber prodigy in his own right, and near equal of a circa TPM Mace Windu – while simultaneously owning a practically knighted Obi-Wan...all while he was hampered with an ankle injury (The Phantom Menace). And let's not forget about his absolute drumming of a peak OT Darth Vader, the guy who is 80% of Palpatine in power and who was a skilled enough duelist to create a unique form of his own – a modified Form V (Resurrection/Fightsaber).[/b]

STOP USING SO MANY SOURCES!!! Ugh.

First off, Dooku's 'concession' is only logical. Maul is a master of a massive amount of forms and killing techniques- Dooku would be a dumbass to refuse to acknowledge Maul's skills. Besides, one of the most powerful Jedi in history (note: the full spectrum of Jedi-dom, not just 'Padawan', or 'Knight', or whatever) > one of the deadliest Sith apprentices, dontcha think?

Originally posted by Enyalus
I doubt Dooku's considerable, but ultimately inferior power and skill will be a problem.

Nah.

Originally posted by Enyalus
So he's modest, like Obi-Wan. The narrator still says he's the most skilled duelist in the Order and probably the Jedi Temple Battlemaster (Shadow Hunter).

It could be easily interpreted that the quote came from Anoon Bondara's apprentice, not the omniscent narrator.

I'm also fairly certain that the exact quote is something about how Anoon is frequently considered to be the numero uno technically skilled swordsman in the order, but he often disagrees, 'having sparred with' Mace Windu or whatever. It's just 'disagrees', period- it implies that he disagrees due to sparring with those other powerful Jedi.

Originally posted by Enyalus
And Maul beat Qui-Gon. Pretty easily. While he was assisted by Obi-Wan. I don't see an issue there.

Nay. It wasn't 'pretty easily'- even while separated from Obi-Wan (the majority of the battle), Qui-Gon was fighting quite equally with Maul- in fact, he was forcing Maul back with his Ataru onslaught. He only lost the insant fatigue, old age, and the lack of necessary space caught up with him.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Debatable. Dooku was absolutely destroyed by Anakin (Revenge of the Sith). Maul proved his dueling skills were superior to a peak OT Darth Vader – who had more technical skill than Anakin did as well as a vastly superior command of the Force (Resurrection). Not only that, but in his duel with his master, Sidious 'barely deflected' Maul's blows and Maul 'nearly bested' him (Dark Side Sourcebook). We don't get to see a duel between Dooku and Sidious, but Dooku seems to always be in constant awe of him and his power. And if we take Dooku's duels with Yoda into account, and then Yoda's duel with Sidious...it's pretty clear that Dooku would've fared far less well than Maul did against him.

1. Anakin destroyed Dooku thanks to his incredible physical strength, stamina, and most importantly of all, unbelievable raw power. Aside from the first of these, OT Vader doesn't possess any of them- don't forget that during his fight with Anakin, Dooku was rapidly tiring, while Anakin was continually getting stronger. Mech Vader is slower (therefore enabling Dooku to launch attacks instead of being constantly thrown back), and doesn't constantly increase in power and ferocity.

2. RotS Sidious was prepared to fight Yoda, was bloodlusted, and had increased force mastery, which implies superior speed and force-enhanced attributes. Yoda didn't suddenly leap to attack him from behind his back.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I think you were saying that Juyo and Vaapad are similar in form? I would agree. However, as I said, I disagree that Mace regularly sparred with Dooku using Vaapad. He only regularly uses it against Sora while developing it, and Depa. Mace notes it's very dangerous to use and does not take it so lightly that he'd use it for simple sparring (Jedi vs. Sith). Also, though, Maul integrated his mastery of Teras Kasi into his mastery of Juyo, which turned it into something far more deadly than your typical Juyo (Fightsaber).

I've already dealt with Mace not using Vaapad's basic fighting moves in a duel against Dooku.

And while Maul's 'mastery of Teras Kasi' will certainly be a factor, Dooku is well-versed in all forms of the lightsaber (minus Vaapad), and trained in his Makashi to a greater extent, with greater vigor, and more time than any force user in the mythos, except for- perhaps- Kas'im, who still didn't have anything approaching Dooku's specialized skill in Makashi.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I would certainly say that Maul's physical abilities dwarf Dooku's.

In raw physical attributes, I agree.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Master of the “steel hands” martial art and in peak physical condition for his age (22)...while Dooku was physically a man half his age (41?). Maul was also a 'wizard of the Force' and trained by Sidious his entire life in both Sith lore and the Jedi arts (Shadow Hunter(?)/Dark Side Sourcebook). He's no slouch in the Force department. He also walked through a Nightsister's Force Lightning,

The Nightsister's force lightning would be absolutely nothing compared to the force lightning of one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history.

Originally posted by Enyalus
so there's a possibility of him being able to do such a thing in this battle (Darth Maul).

No, there isn't. What's next? Do you think he could survive lightning from Sidious? Force choke from Vader?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Not only that, but many people forget that Maul uses a Sith lanvarok, which he can use to fling several sharp discs at Dooku (and guide them with the Force) – if nothing else than to at least disrupt the Count's focus (New Essential Guide to Weapons & Technology).

Well, that makes sense. Dooku, however, would possess greater force-enhanced reflexes and incredible skill in TK, enabling him to fling those discs away from himself.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Maul is, simply put – amazing.

Yes.

Originally posted by Enyalus
His saber skills are superior to Dooku's,

No. Dooku's over 50 years of training in the most technically demanding form > Maul's skill.

Originally posted by Enyalus
he uses a deadlier form,

Bullshit. Maul's form may be overall deadlier, but Dooku's is the 'ultimate refinement' of saber-to-saber combat- it's the form best suited for combating other force users.

Originally posted by Enyalus
he's modified that deadly form to make it even more deadly, and his supposed inferiority in the Force didn't harm him in the least against someone who was 80% of OT-era Palpatine's power, so I don't see why it should here.

Vader didn't attempt to murder Maul with the force, even though the Sith Acoyltes acknowledge that he could have. Dooku's Makashi is also unparalleled within the mythos, too. (Remember, this also means he's considerably superior to Shaak Ti, who you apparently think can beat Vader in a lightsaber duel.)

Originally posted by Enyalus
The team win.

Nay. Dooku takes Ventress out with the force quickly and proceeds to beat down Maul in a difficult duel. Or, better yet, he force-owns him during the middle of one- it's certainly within his capacity.

wait a minute: Vapaad works perfectly, regardless of opponent, its fueled by the dark side within mace, and is a lightsaber STYLE. Styles work the same regardless of the opponent.

They are talking about the metaphysical aspect: where Mace engages the 'superconducting loop' and equalizes any disparity in speed or mastery. That aspect of Vapaad would not apply in a duel against a lightsider.

You're right about the consistency of Vapaad's deadliness. Sometimes I get frustrated when I see people discarding it just because it is fighting a neutral or Light side user. It is still deadly.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Bull. Windu would not utilize Vaapad to its full potency against Dooku, Qui-Gon, or Yoda due to the fact that they are lightsiders. Vaapad can only form it's 'superconducting loop' by reflecting the dark side energies produced by the user's opponent- in this case, no energies are produced by 'em. There's no reason why Mace wouldn't use Vaapad's non-metaphysical abilities, considering that sparring is usually done with training sabers, and thus is not dangerous.

You've got the entire concept of Vaapad wrong. But, as Faunus' avatar, that's why I am here – to enlighten you:

”I developed Vaapad to answer my own weakness, and channel my inner darkness into a weapon for the light. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must give himself over to the thrill of battle, enjoying the fight and the satisfaction of winning. A Jedi must also accept and embrace the fury of his opponent. This transforms a Jedi into half of a superconducting loop, the other half being the power of the darkness, which passes in and out of the Jedi without touching him.

Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind, a path that leads through the penumbra of the Dark Side.”

When using Vaapad, Mace is channeling his own darkness regardless. Embracing the fury of the opponent is only one half of the superconducting loop – the other half being the power of Mace's own darkness. He's not going to use it in sparring sessions, especially against his colleagues.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Pfft. You're just his avatar, and I am his only worthy apprentice. He knows one day I will kill him and become the master. And then, you will be my avatar.

No. See, Faunus is like DE Sidious – he's immortal. I'm simply the spirit which goes into whatever crappy body he chooses.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
That would be accurate if you hadn't ignored the fact that previous to Maul truly challenging Sidious, Sidious engaged him and effortlessly curbstomped him. After that, Sidious told Maul he was training another apprentice, causing Maul to go nuts and surprise Sidious by attempting to kill him- and even Maul's 'uber fury' wasn't enough the moment Sidious recovered from the shock.

1) I didn't ignore it. You ignored the fact that Maul had been dropped off on an abandoned planet for a month with an assload of assassin droids hunting him, the fact that he was hungry, exhausted, and wounded from those engagements, and then Sidious comes to challenge him when he is in zero condition to do battle.

2) Sidious knew he was in no condition to do battle, knew that he would be easily defeated. That's why he taunted him afterwards. He wanted Maul 'to go nuts' and attempt to kill him. So yes, Sidious was expecting it and was not surprised. He was fully aware of what would happen. It was a test which Maul passed.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Besides, I'd bet that Dooku would be capable of 'endangering' Sidious in a lightsaber duel, too. Not beat him, but give him something of a hard time.

If we accept Yoda and Sidious as virtual equals, then no, he wouldn't. Yoda was never in any serious danger in his battles against Dooku. Yoda dominated him each time – including on Vjun, while distracted by a woman being thrown out the window.

Yoda, and Sidious, are on a whole nother level for Dooku. Maul fared much better.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
First off, Dooku's 'concession' is only logical. Maul is a master of a massive amount of forms and killing techniques- Dooku would be a dumbass to refuse to acknowledge Maul's skills.

Right. But he is a dumbass in that regard. He automatically makes any non-human out to be inferior. That he would acknowledge Maul's skill – someone he probably still knows nothing about save for his dismantling of Qui-Gon, speaks volumes.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Besides, one of the most powerful Jedi in history (note: the full spectrum of Jedi-dom, not just 'Padawan', or 'Knight', or whatever) > one of the deadliest Sith apprentices, dontcha think?

Step back and look at all of the Pre-PT era Jedi we know of. Impressive, weren't they? (Rhetorical)

Maul was never a Jedi, obviously, so the same of course cannot be said.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Nah.

Count Dooku's skill and power is inferior to Darth Vader's. You can't simply write off Maul's dominance of Vader as irrelevant. Then add in the fact that he gave Sidious serious problems during his final test, and you have a dead Tyrannus.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
It could be easily interpreted that the quote came from Anoon Bondara's apprentice, not the omniscent narrator.

Two different sources name Anoon as the most technically skilled duelist of the Order. The other is, I believe, a sourcebook.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Nay. It wasn't 'pretty easily'- even while separated from Obi-Wan (the majority of the battle), Qui-Gon was fighting quite equally with Maul- in fact, he was forcing Maul back with his Ataru onslaught. He only lost the insant fatigue, old age, and the lack of necessary space caught up with him.

...It was pretty easily. I don't think I've ever heard anyone else suggest otherwise. Maul was in total control the entire time. He was the one guiding Qui-Gon into the cooling pit, where his Ataru would prove disadvantageous.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
1. Anakin destroyed Dooku thanks to his incredible physical strength, stamina, and most importantly of all, unbelievable raw power. Aside from the first of these, OT Vader doesn't possess any of them- don't forget that during his fight with Anakin, Dooku was rapidly tiring, while Anakin was continually getting stronger. Mech Vader is slower (therefore enabling Dooku to launch attacks instead of being constantly thrown back), and doesn't constantly increase in power and ferocity.

Wait, why doesn't OT Vader also have incredible stamina? Moreover, Dooku was just fine for their duel. He had replenished himself with the Force back to full strength. Dooku was tiring because each strike of Anakin's was powerful enough to make him spend his Force reserves “lavishly” in turning them aside. Maul's duel against Qui-Gon was no different, where the Sith had 'the advantage of youth and strength.'

There's no difference for a duel between Maul and Dooku not turning out a similar way. While Maul doesn't have the raw power Anakin does, nonetheless he is a physical beast, can use one blade, two, or Jar'Kai expertly, uses a superior form to Anakin's Djem So, and mixes it with Teras Kasi, which makes it unique and even more unpredictable than Juyo already is.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
2. RotS Sidious was prepared to fight Yoda, was bloodlusted, and had increased force mastery, which implies superior speed and force-enhanced attributes.

Please don't subscribe to Gideon's completely unfounded premise that superior Force mastery equals superior speed. A pre-ROTJ Luke, for instance, uses Force speed:

”I was dazed, and felt I'd lost contact with the Force. Then I heard Ben Kenobi's voice calling as if from a great distance, echoing across time and space. He said, The Force. Let it work for you, Luke.

I had to trust the Force completely. Guri's hand was coming down like a blade at me. A death strike, I watched her hand descend, saw it moving to smash me, but it seemed so incredibly slow that I was able to roll aside and stand before the blow could land. I felt as if I were moving at normal speed, though there was a crackling feeling to my motions, and a sound like strong wind whistling about my ears. To me, Guri seemed to be suddenly mired in thickened time. It wasn't any effort at all to knock her to the floor. As she fell, time seemed to speed up and return to normal.

The burst of speed I experienced was not a fluke, but unlike other Force powers, I cannot say I felt in complete control of it. All of you should bear in mind that while it often seems we use the Force achieve our goals, it is ultimately the will of the Force that guides our actions.”

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I've already dealt with Mace not using Vaapad's basic fighting moves in a duel against Dooku.

Yes. And you are wrong. 😛

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
And while Maul's 'mastery of Teras Kasi' will certainly be a factor, Dooku is well-versed in all forms of the lightsaber (minus Vaapad), and trained in his Makashi to a greater extent, with greater vigor, and more time than any force user in the mythos, except for- perhaps- Kas'im, who still didn't have anything approaching Dooku's specialized skill in Makashi.

Yeah. Except it didn't help him against Anakin, who had probably trained for less time than Maul had and is also a high level master of multiple forms. And uses the deadliest and most demanding form in Juyo. And is called the perfect Sith weapon.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
The Nightsister's force lightning would be absolutely nothing compared to the force lightning of one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history. No, there isn't. What's next? Do you think he could survive lightning from Sidious?

Strange you bring that up, because I'm pretty sure a Pre-TPM Sidious would've had a lot of fun using his Force Lightning on Darth Maul. Probably often. So yes, I do believe he can take it and survive. Especially from Dooku, who isn't Sidious' equal. That's all pretty irrelevant, though, as Maul has a saber to block it, and Ventress in this match to occupy him for three seconds or so.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Well, that makes sense. Dooku, however, would possess greater force-enhanced reflexes and incredible skill in TK, enabling him to fling those discs away from himself.

When being completely surprised by them? When has he ever faced a Sith Ianvarok before? Does he even know what it is? At the very least it'll serve as a distraction and interrupt his concentration.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
No. Dooku's over 50 years of training in the most technically demanding form > Maul's skill.

Anakin had far less training time, and even as of the Clone Wars was giving Dooku hell saber wise. Sidious had at least twenty few years training than Dooku. No one would make the case for Dooku's saber skills dwarfing Sidious'. Sidious and Yoda. Luke and Vader. Galen Marek and Vader. Maul and Qui-Gon. Vastor and Mace. Bane and Sirak. Bane and Kas'im. Luke and Palpatine. Caedus and Mara-Jade. Caedus and Kyle Katarn.

Man, those are just the ones I can list off the top of my head. Experience doesn't seem to make a great deal of difference in Star Wars.

And your assertion regarding Makashi is false. I've already posted the quote once. Juyo is 'the most difficult and demanding of all forms.'

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Bullshit. Maul's form may be overall deadlier, but Dooku's is the 'ultimate refinement' of saber-to-saber combat- it's the form best suited for combating other force users.

Argue with Yoda and the sourcebooks. Juyo is deadlier than Makashi. Makashi is also only designed for single bladed lightsaber to lightsaber combat. And Maul can switch to using two blades or even Jar'Kai any time he feels inclined to do so. Mixed with Teras Kasi, Maul's form is superior to Dooku's by a fair margin.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Vader didn't attempt to murder Maul with the force, even though the Sith Acoyltes acknowledge that he could have. Dooku's Makashi is also unparalleled within the mythos, too. (Remember, this also means he's considerably superior to Shaak Ti, who you apparently think can beat Vader in a lightsaber duel.)

Why are you saying things that aren't true? I've already went over this with Gideon and posted the exact quote:

”'...could refuse the duel and attempt to destroy us all here and now. You might even succeed.”

So no, he couldn't have just killed Maul with the Force. Also, Vader uses the Force twice during their duel. Once, animating dead stormtroopers to fire at Maul – attempting to disrupt Maul's edge in their battle. That doesn't work. The second time is Vader Force Crushing the rock Maul is on in the middle of a lava river. Now, if Maul's Force defenses were weak, do you think Vader would have simply used Force Choke and killed him, or Force Pushed him off the rock he was on instead of crushing it? Exactly.

And your harping on Dooku's “OMG0rz” Makashi is as bad as Ox's. Maul's a master of Juyo. Juyo is deadlier than Makashi. And that he blends it with a martial art specifically designed for killing Jedi makes it even deadlier.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Nay. Dooku takes Ventress out with the force quickly and proceeds to beat down Maul in a difficult duel. Or, better yet, he force-owns him during the middle of one- it's certainly within his capacity.

Dooku can't best Maul in a duel. And Maul's Force defenses were sufficient enough to deter Darth Vader. And Maul is the 'perfect Sith weapon.' And has been trained by Darth Sidious longer than Dooku has. And is accustom to dealing with and overcoming pain on a regular basis. He can take Dooku solo. With Ventress as a distraction, it's a lock.

Originally posted by Enyalus
You need to be a high level master of multiple forms in order to even begin training in Juyo. Maul was a master of Juyo (Fightsaber). What form is Makashi? Oh yeah – Form II. Safe to say Maul knows it. Form II isn't called 'the most difficult and demanding of all forms' and 'can lead to fantastic power and skill.' Juyo is (Jedi vs. Sith). And then there is something which Yoda says:

”Six there were for generations of Jedi. The seventh, is not well-known. Powerful form it is. Deadliest of all.” (Shatterpoint).

So, yes. Form VII, Juyo and Vaapad, is the deadliest lightsaber form, and Maul is a master of it and Teras Kasi.

I can't believe we are even having this argument.

Makashi was designed for no other purpose than to duel. It is the ultimate refinement in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat; therefore by its very nature and purpose, it is going to be more effective in a duel than Juyo.

Juyo may draw on elements from Makashi, but they are two very separate forms. It is glaringly obvious if you were to pull your head out of your ass and watch Dooku and Maul fight. Obviously Juyo would be considered the "deadliest form", because it was effectively able to stand up against lightsabers and blasters. Makashi could not - it excelled at lightsaber combat alone. And given that blasters were the most common opponent a Jedi would face in later times, Form II would be considered obsolete. Therefore being the deadliest does not equate to being the most proficient in lightsaber combat.

Couple that with Dooku's prodigious abilities, decades of experience against opponents of Yoda and Mace Windu's calibre, and drive to succeed - then Darth Maul doesn't stand a chance.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Please don't subscribe to Gideon's completely unfounded premise that superior Force mastery equals superior speed. A pre-ROTJ Luke, for instance, uses Force speed:

Explain how Skywalker's use of the Force to create a burst of speed somehow contradicts my contention that superior Force users move at superior speeds than other Force users.

Originally posted by Gideon
Explain how Skywalker's use of the Force to create a burst of speed somehow contradicts my contention that superior Force users move at superior speeds than other Force users.

It was me who said superior power leads to superior Force speed. It was you who said superior 'command of the Force', which I presume = knowledge of the Force = Force mastery, leads to superior Force speed.

And now you are saying superior 'Force users.' Different stuff.

Originally posted by Enyalus
It was me who said superior power leads to superior Force speed. It was you who said superior 'command of the Force', which I presume = knowledge of the Force = Force mastery, leads to superior Force speed.

And now you are saying superior 'Force users.' Different stuff.

Okay, let's say I said a superior command of the Force leads to superior Force speed. How does that passage disproves my theory?

how else could we explain the beginning of the duel in ROTS with sidious? If superior force users CAN'T move at superior skills, something is REALLY WRONG with that scene.

Originally posted by truejedi
how else could we explain the beginning of the duel in ROTS with sidious? If superior force users CAN'T move at superior skills, something is REALLY WRONG with that scene.

Enyalus's contention is that raw power, not great Force command, contributes to superior speed.

eh, i'd go combination of both... such as anakin should be able to move as fast as kenobi with less initial command because he's more powerful, but he would need at least enough technical skill to learn the technique.

One usually lends itself to the other in short order.

Originally posted by Gideon
Okay, let's say I said a superior command of the Force leads to superior Force speed. How does that passage disproves my theory?

Originally posted by Gideon
Skilled and fine swordsmen they may be, but the Emperor was their far superior in Force command, hence why he was able to move at speeds that they were incapable of.

Anakin shows tremendous blade speed. From the ROTS novelization:

'He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture:'

And that is while Anakin is holding himself back. Dooku is clearly overwhelmed by not only Anakin's immense power, but speed. Later on, when he isn't holding back:

'In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.

Decide.

So he does.

He decides to win.

He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here: his blade moves simultaneously with his will and blue fire vaporizes black Corellian nanosilk and disintegrates flesh and shears bone, and away falls a Sith Lord's lightsaber hand, trailing smoke that tastes of charred meat and burned hair.'

Just like that. He's fast enough that when he's not holding himself back, a single move ended the duel. Faster than Dooku could do anything to counter. He easily outclasses Dooku in not only power but in speed. Does Anakin have superior command of the Force over Dooku? No. Does Anakin have superior knowledge of the Force over Dooku? No. Tis power...

Now, from Path of Destruction:

'When the Zabrak's desperation turned to hopelessness, every impulse in Bane screamed with the desire to take the initiative and end the fight. Instead he let the tantalizing closeness of Sirak's defeat feed his appetite for vengeance. The hunger grew with each passing second until it became a physical pain tearing away at his insides: the dark side filled him and he felt it on the verge of ripping him apart, splitting his skin and gushing out like a fountain of blood....

He waited until the last possible second before unleashing the energy bottled up inside of him in a tremendous rush of power. He channeled it through his muscles and limbs, moving so fast it seemed as if time had stopped for the rest of the world. In the blink of an eye he knocked the saber from Sirak's hand, sliced down to shatter his forearm, then spun through and brought his saber crashing into his opponent's lower leg. It splintered under the impact and Sirak screamed as a shard of gleaming white bone sliced through muscle, sinew and finally skin...

For an instant none of the spectators was even aware of what had happened; it took their minds a moment to catch up and register the blur of action that had occurred so much quicker than their eyes could see.'

Sirak was the top apprentice at the Academy. He's very fast, and has at least a working knowledge of every Form, seeing as how during their first duel Bane is able to see him transitioning seemlessly from one form into another. Compare that to Bane who is relatively new at the academy (less than a year in), he doesn't have any holocrons to study and his command of the Force is so suspect that a few months earlier he couldn't use his Force powers at all. Yet he does this. How? He's able to channel the power of the Dark Side. He can handle it. He's powerful. Not because his knowledge of the Force is amazing.

From The Swarm War:

'the two Jedi were on one another, their lightsabers flashing toward each other's heads with all the speed and might they could summon.

That was the trouble with powerful men-especially younger ones. Awed by their own strength, they so often believed strength was the answer to every problem. Luke was older and wiser. While Raynar swung, he pivoted.

As Raynar's gold blade sliced the air where Luke's head had been, Luke's boot was kicking him behind the ankles, knocking his legs out from under him and stretching him out flat.'

Luke's raw power allows him to move at tremendous speeds. In The Unifying Force (which I don't have to quote) he's seen as wielding twenty blades at once. How is this possible? Power!

A pre-ROTJ Luke, for instance, uses Force speed:

"I was dazed, and felt I'd lost contact with the Force. Then I heard Ben Kenobi's voice calling as if from a great distance, echoing across time and space. He said, The Force. Let it work for you, Luke.

I had to trust the Force completely. Guri's hand was coming down like a blade at me. A death strike, I watched her hand descend, saw it moving to smash me, but it seemed so incredibly slow that I was able to roll aside and stand before the blow could land. I felt as if I were moving at normal speed, though there was a crackling feeling to my motions, and a sound like strong wind whistling about my ears. To me, Guri seemed to be suddenly mired in thickened time. It wasn't any effort at all to knock her to the floor. As she fell, time seemed to speed up and return to normal.

The burst of speed I experienced was not a fluke, but unlike other Force powers, I cannot say I felt in complete control of it. All of you should bear in mind that while it often seems we use the Force achieve our goals, it is ultimately the will of the Force that guides our actions."

In all of the above cases, the indicated users of Force speed are not known for their overwhelming knowledge or command of the Force. And as Luke himself states in 40 ABY (circa Legacy of the Force), he was not in total control of such power - and thus, Force mastery would be a far less pre-requisite for a Force-enhanced burst of speed than the Force potential of its user.

I think Enlayus made a good point actually. I ask myself how good Maul would be if he had 20 more years to study the ways of the dark side.

Anyway, nonetheless I say dooku wins because he already showed that he is quite superior to ventress in the lightsaber department, and especially in the force contest. I say dooku puts ventress aside just like he did to kenobi and then he beats maul after a good all out fight.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
I think Enlayus made a good point actually. I ask myself how good Maul would be if he had 20 more years to study the ways of the dark side.

Anyway, nonetheless I say dooku wins because he already showed that he is quite superior to ventress in the lightsaber department, and especially in the force contest. I say dooku puts ventress aside just like he did to kenobi and then he beats maul after a good all out fight.

but Kenobi does not have the best lightsaber attack by the very nature of his form. he is a defensive fighter. and Maul is far superior to Ventress.

so whats stopping Maul being all over dooku not giving him a chance to use his superior force mastery on him, just like Anakin did to Dooku, and like Mace did to Sidious???