First, Mace wasn't all over sidious, mace was in a technically draw with sidious until he found that shatterpoint. Second, Maul isn't Anakin. So, even though he is a very skilled fighter, he can't do what anakin did to dooku. Just see qui-gon vs maul fight for example, did it seem that qui-gon was backing down? And dooku is superior to qui-gon both with the force and with the lightsaber.
Originally posted by Darth Angel
First, Mace wasn't all over sidious, mace was in a technically draw with sidious until he found that shatterpoint.
Point is, Mace didn't allow Sidious the time to use his superior Force powers against him.
Originally posted by Darth Angel
Second, Maul isn't Anakin. So, even though he is a very skilled fighter, he can't do what anakin did to dooku. Just see qui-gon vs maul fight for example, did it seem that qui-gon was backing down?
Maul guided him into the cooling room intentionally so Qui-Gon would be at a disadvantage and to keep Obi-Wan separated. He seems like a very intelligent fighter in-combat.
Originally posted by Darth Angel
And dooku is superior to qui-gon both with the force and with the lightsaber.
So is Maul. So there goes that.
Originally posted by EnyalusPoint is, Mace didn't allow Sidious the time to use his superior Force powers against him.
[/b]
Maul guided him into the cooling room intentionally so Qui-Gon would be at a disadvantage and to keep Obi-Wan separated. He seems like a very intelligent fighter in-combat.
So is Maul. So there goes that. [/B]
QED
Originally posted by Enyalus
Maul guided him into the cooling room intentionally so Qui-Gon would be at a disadvantage and to keep Obi-Wan separated. He seems like a very intelligent fighter in-combat.
Nonetheless even before Maul beat Qui-gon, we never saw him do to Qui-gon what Anakin did to Dooku, which means ownage. Besides, what makes you think that Maul is as good as Anakin with the lightsaber?
Also, now it seems that Dooku's skill with the lightsaber are somehow weak. Let's not forget how good Dooku was with the saber as well.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Point is, Mace didn't allow Sidious the time to use his superior Force powers against him.
Are you high?
Sorry to interrupt the revisionist history, but when Sidious attacked the collective of Jedi Masters sent to arrest him, he did so quicker than Mace could register what was going on (Complete Visual Dictionary). And after butchering Kit Fisto while clashing sabers with Mace, he proceeded to drive Windu into the main office.
Sidious had a clear advantage in Force-assisted speed and agility and was far more ferocious than Windu could handle. The only thing that stopped Sidious from obliterating Windu with the Force was the fact that Sidious clearly chose not to do it.
And in the versus forums, we argue what combatants are capable of, we do not speculate on potential flawed decisions that they may or may not make.
Maul guided him into the cooling room intentionally so Qui-Gon would be at a disadvantage and to keep Obi-Wan separated. He seems like a very intelligent fighter in-combat.
And Dooku isn't? Both of them met their ends for the very same reason: hubris. Meanwhile, Dooku also has a history of cunning battle tactics. Look what he did to Anakin and Obi-Wan and then Yoda in Attack of the Clones. Tholme and Sora Bulq. Anakin on Tattooine. Yoda on Vjun. Mace Windu on Boz Pity. Obi-Wan and Anakin again in Revenge of the Sith.
So is Maul. So there goes that.
The point is that Dooku isn't Qui-Gon and he is a much more capable opponent for Maul.
Originally posted by Darth Angel
Nonetheless even before Maul beat Qui-gon, we never saw him do to Qui-gon what Anakin did to Dooku, which means ownage.
what do u think he did to him on tatooine?? that was much worse!
and on Naboo Maul had been fighting 2 formidable jedis for quite a while and took a hard hit to the back before his 1 on 1 with Qui-Gon. A hit Qui-Gon was only able to get on Maul because Maul diverted his attention for a second to seperate Obi1. before that according to the novel Maul was controlling the fight, and holding them both "at bay"
Originally posted by Darth Angel
Besides, what makes you think that Maul is as good as Anakin with the lightsaber?
Im pretty sure the Chosen One would win against Maul, though I think Maul would last quite long due to his stamina, and would put up a decent fight due to the deadliness of his Juyo.
Originally posted by Darth Angel
Also, now it seems that Dooku's skill with the lightsaber are somehow weak. Let's not forget how good Dooku was with the saber as well.
Oh no Dooku is far from weak. Ultimate master of Makashi means the master of saber to saber combat(in technical skill)..
My argument for Maul able to hold him at bay in a saber fight is:
1. The deadliness of his Juyo..
2. Unorthodox weapon (Saber Staff essentially) not quite what Makashi is designed for, as well as unorthodox mix of martial arts and hand to hand combat withtin his saber combat.
Of course we could make the argument that Greivous and Ventress also dnt use a single saber fencing style, yet Dooku still owns them. However I dnt believe either of them has Mastered Juyo, making Maul more deadly.
Originally posted by Darth Angel
First, Mace wasn't all over sidious, mace was in a technically draw with sidious until he found that shatterpoint.
Sorry when I say all over him I dnt mean he was owning him, I just mean therye in an intense close up fight therby not giving the other opponent a chance to make use of his Superior Force Mastery.
Originally posted by Enyalus
You've got the entire concept of Vaapad wrong. But, as Faunus' avatar, that's why I am here – to enlighten you:
Bull. I am greater than thou.
Originally posted by Enyalus
”I developed Vaapad to answer my own weakness, and [b]channel my inner darkness into a weapon for the light. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must give himself over to the thrill of battle, enjoying the fight and the satisfaction of winning. A Jedi must also accept and embrace the fury of his opponent. This transforms a Jedi into half of a superconducting loop, the other half being the power of the darkness, which passes in and out of the Jedi without touching him.Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind, a path that leads through the penumbra of the Dark Side.”
When using Vaapad, Mace is channeling his own darkness regardless. Embracing the fury of the opponent is only one half of the superconducting loop – the other half being the power of Mace's own darkness. He's not going to use it in sparring sessions, especially against his colleagues.
[/b]
Oh, please. There's no proof that Mace refused to utilize Vaapad in his sparring sessions, considering that they are generally controlled, safe, and he likely possessed a 'friendly rivalry' of sorts with Dooku.
Please, provide a quote in which Mace- until regular circumstances- is hesitant or refuse to unleash Vaapad's full power. Do that, or drop the point.
Originally posted by Enyalus
No. See, Faunus is like DE Sidious – he's immortal. I'm simply the spirit which goes into whatever crappy body he chooses.
So you're kind of like a male whore?
Originally posted by Enyalus
1) I didn't ignore it. You ignored the fact that Maul had been dropped off on an abandoned planet for a month with an assload of assassin droids hunting him, the fact that he was hungry, exhausted, and wounded from those engagements, and then Sidious comes to challenge him when he is in zero condition to do battle.
That's very much true. However, it hardly speaks for the fact that Sidious was capable of fending him off despite being surprised, blind-sided, and attacked with all the fury of a man trained his entire life to feed on pain and anger. If Dooku went batshit crazy and blind-sided Sidious, I doubt Sidious would have had a walk in the park with him- even if Dooku, say, had a gunshot wound in the stomach. And Dooku's pain resistance and channeling doesn't compare to Maul's.
Originally posted by Enyalus
2) Sidious knew he was in no condition to do battle, knew that he would be easily defeated. That's why he taunted him afterwards. He wanted Maul 'to go nuts' and attempt to kill him. So yes, Sidious was expecting it and was not surprised. He was fully aware of what would happen. It was a test which Maul passed.[quote]The fact is, Sidious was surprised by Maul's sudden, ferocious onslaught- that's definetly true. Did he know what would happen? Not necessarily. It was a test for Maul, but a 'test' would indicate that Sidious wouldn't know the exact consequences- otherwise a test would be completely unnecessary.
[QUOTE=11190767]Originally posted by Enyalus
If we accept Yoda and Sidious as virtual equals, then no, he wouldn't. Yoda was never in any serious danger in his battles against Dooku. Yoda dominated him each time – including on Vjun, while distracted by a woman being thrown out the window.
Serious danger =/= with ease. Yoda would beat Dooku down in a lightsaber fight, but I'd give Dooku something like a 2/10 chance of victory. Same with Sidious. With Maul, even that's an (unlikey) stretch.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Yoda, and Sidious, are on a whole nother level for Dooku. Maul fared much better.
While attacking a slower, unprepared, un-bloodlusted Sidious wielding a training saber while being insanely angry.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Right. But he is a dumbass in that regard. He automatically makes any non-human out to be inferior. That he would acknowledge Maul's skill – someone he probably still knows nothing about save for his dismantling of Qui-Gon, speaks volumes.
That's quite true. But Dooku personally trained Qui-Gon- don't forget that Sidious is a cocky, arrogant S.O.B. Dismissing the guy who beat his apprentice in a straight-up fight as 'weak' would be an insult to his own training capabilities.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Step back and look at all of the Pre-PT era Jedi we know of. Impressive, weren't they? (Rhetorical)
Yeah. (******* Reply)
Originally posted by Enyalus
[B]Maul was never a Jedi, obviously, so the same of course cannot be said.
Huh? The high-level PT Jedi- even the more 'b-list' type ones- were certainly impressive, to a certain degree. Quinlan Vos, Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, Shaak Ti (as seen in TFU), for example. There are guys like Anakin and Obi-Wan, Depa Billaba, Sora Bulq- and Dooku was hailed as 'even more powerful' when he was a Sith. Sorry, his 'in history' ratings > Maul's.
Besides, merely 'dangerous' is less than 'powerful'- hell, Jango Fett can be more dangerous and a more effective killer than some top-tier Jedi. But he is a more powerful? Can he take them in a straight fight (this is a straight fight)? Not necessarily. Maul's an assassin. He's bred to be dangerous.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Count Dooku's skill and power is inferior to Darth Vader's. You can't simply write off Maul's dominance of Vader as irrelevant. Then add in the fact that he gave Sidious serious problems during his final test, and you have a dead Tyrannus.
Oh, come on. Vader's raw power may be more than Dooku's, but it's a slight-margin, at best. And in saber skill? Dooku had practiced his Makashi to a longer time and to a greater extent than anyone in the mythos. Vader doesn't- he's not as technically skilled as Dooku, and if he can take Dooku down in a duel, it's thanks to Djem So's advantages over Makashi. And that ONLY. Dooku is overall a more dangerous saber user.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Two different sources name Anoon as the most technically skilled duelist of the Order. The other is, I believe, a sourcebook.
Quote? You're the guy with the unlimited quotes.
Originally posted by Enyalus
...It was pretty easily. I don't think I've ever heard anyone else suggest otherwise. Maul was in total control the entire time. He was the one guiding Qui-Gon into the cooling pit, where his Ataru would prove disadvantageous.
Please, prove it. In addition, the fact remains that even after dismantling Obi-Wan and leaving to fight Qui-Gon alone, he was incapable of gaining a significant advantage- in addition, how the hell would he know the exact details of that fighting location? He's never been there in his life, and we certainly have no record of him studying it.
Originally posted by EnyalusWait, why doesn't OT Vader also have incredible stamina?
Because he has less than half Anakin's raw power, possesses a far inferior physique, and is handicapped by a heavy suit.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Moreover, Dooku was just fine for their duel. He had replenished himself with the Force back to full strength. Dooku was tiring because each strike of Anakin's was powerful enough to make him spend his Force reserves “lavishly” in turning them aside.
Umm... so? It proves that Anakin's unbelievable raw power and fury caused him to unleash incredible strength beyond Makashi's ability to control- Maul is never recorded to be capable of using strength-levels even vaguely resembling that.
Originally posted by Enyalus[/QUOTE]
Maul's duel against Qui-Gon was no different, where the Sith had 'the advantage of youth and strength.'
Yet he is never depicted to either own Qui-Gon with physical strength, or strike him all angles, preventing him from launching a counter-attack, that beside from Maul wielding a double-bladed lightsaber, fighting Dooku's inferior, and Makashi being known for it's quick attacks (unlike Ataru, Qui-Gon's form).
Originally posted by Enyalus
[B] There's no difference for a duel between Maul and Dooku not turning out a similar way. While Maul doesn't have the raw power Anakin does, nonetheless he is a physical beast, can use one blade, two, or Jar'Kai expertly, uses a superior form to Anakin's Djem So, and mixes it with Teras Kasi, which makes it unique and even more unpredictable than Juyo already is.
There's no such thing a 'superior form'- it so happened that Djem So combined with Anakin's physical power (granted to him by his force strength. Beyond anything Maul came close to displaying) happened to be the bane of Dooku. In the form of TPM Mace Windu, Dooku had already outsparred a physical beast utilizing an advanced, complete version of Juyo.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Please don't subscribe to Gideon's completely unfounded premise that superior Force mastery equals superior speed. A pre-ROTJ Luke, for instance, uses Force speed:”I was dazed, and felt I'd lost contact with the Force. Then I heard Ben Kenobi's voice calling as if from a great distance, echoing across time and space. He said, The Force. Let it work for you, Luke.
[b]I had to trust the Force completely
. Guri's hand was coming down like a blade at me. A death strike, I watched her hand descend, saw it moving to smash me, but it seemed so incredibly slow that I was able to roll aside and stand before the blow could land. I felt as if I were moving at normal speed, though there was a crackling feeling to my motions, and a sound like strong wind whistling about my ears. To me, Guri seemed to be suddenly mired in thickened time. It wasn't any effort at all to knock her to the floor. As she fell, time seemed to speed up and return to normal.The burst of speed I experienced was not a fluke, but unlike other Force powers, I cannot say I felt in complete control of it. All of you should bear in mind that while it often seems we use the Force achieve our goals, it is ultimately the will of the Force that guides our actions.”
[/b]
So? Luke's instinctive grasp of the force, his raw power, and his (short) training all factor in- besides, there is nothing here that states the degree of Luke's speed. Or do you think he moved faster than Yoda and Sidious back there? He has more raw power than they do. By your logic, he should have moved twice as fast as they did.
Sorry, the displays of speed demonstrated by high-end force masters like Yoda and Sidious- and, to a lesser degree, Mace- is superior to the speed displayed by people like Anakin. Luke's speed evidently grows as his force mastery does, too.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Yes. And you are wrong. 😛
No. No. YOU ARE WRONG!
Originally posted by Enyalus
Yeah. Except it didn't help him against Anakin, who had probably trained for less time than Maul had and is also a high level master of multiple forms. And uses the deadliest and most demanding form in Juyo. And is called the perfect Sith weapon.
Dooku is far, far, oh so far more than a 'Sith weapon', a 'dangerous Sith apprentice', or a deadly whatnot. He's an incredibly powerful, incredibly skilled Sith Lord- he simply couldn't summon the stamina and the kinetic energy to face Anakin's barrage- Maul is never recorded to unleash such barrages against other force users.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Strange you bring that up, because I'm pretty sure a Pre-TPM Sidious would've had a lot of fun using his Force Lightning on Darth Maul. Probably often. So yes, I do believe he can take it and survive. Especially from Dooku, who isn't Sidious' equal. That's all pretty irrelevant, though, as Maul has a saber to block it, and Ventress in this match to occupy him for three seconds or so.
'You're sure' is speculation- and if Sidious would have used his lightning to its full power against Maul by TPM (inferior to RotS), Maul would be dead, considering that his lightning was capable of knocking out Yoda for several seconds- a Yoda that raised his hand in futile defense, likely negating a portion of that lightning's power.
And yeah, I doubt Dooku will have the sufficient time to force-rape both Ventress and Maul.
Originally posted by Enyalus
When being completely surprised by them? When has he ever faced a Sith Ianvarok before? Does he even know what it is? At the very least it'll serve as a distraction and interrupt his concentration.
Maul won't have the time to do that while trapped in an intense duel. Does he know what it is? Possibly. And it will serve as a distaction- but I doubt Maul will whip it out if Dooku force-raped him in close range. Which he could certainly do.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Anakin had far less training time, and even as of the Clone Wars was giving Dooku hell saber wise.
1. Half of the feats in that movie are bullshit. I know it's irrelevant, but let a man *****.
2. Dooku wasn't exactly fully concentrated on killing Anakin, right?
Originally posted by Enyalus
Sidious had at least twenty few years training than Dooku. No one would make the case for Dooku's saber skills dwarfing Sidious'. Sidious and Yoda. Luke and Vader. Galen Marek and Vader. Maul and Qui-Gon. Vastor and Mace. Bane and Sirak. Bane and Kas'im. Luke and Palpatine. Caedus and Mara-Jade. Caedus and Kyle Katarn.Man, those are just the ones I can list off the top of my head. Experience doesn't seem to make a great deal of difference in Star Wars.
Yes, it does. It's a good deal of why Dooku schooled Obi-Wan and Anakin in AotC. Yoda is less of an avid lightsaber user and practioner than Dooku, too.
Originally posted by Enyalus
And your assertion regarding Makashi is false. I've already posted the quote once. Juyo is 'the most difficult and demanding of all forms.'
Physically and mentally demanding- Makashi relies almost purely on the user's sheer skill and fencing ability, rather than force-enhanced power and physicality. In the technical aspect, it's the more demanding form.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Argue with Yoda and the sourcebooks. Juyo is deadlier than Makashi. Makashi is also only designed for single bladed lightsaber to lightsaber combat. And Maul can switch to using two blades or even Jar'Kai any time he feels inclined to do so. Mixed with Teras Kasi, Maul's form is superior to Dooku's by a fair margin.
Overall, possibly. In a strict saber duel? No form is superior to Makashi, which was designed purely for lightsaber duelling.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Why are you saying things that aren't true? I've already went over this with Gideon and posted the exact quote:”'...could refuse the duel and [b]attempt
to destroy us all here and now. You might even succeed.”So no, he couldn't have just killed Maul with the Force. Also, Vader uses the Force twice during their duel. Once, animating dead stormtroopers to fire at Maul – attempting to disrupt Maul's edge in their battle. That doesn't work. The second time is Vader Force Crushing the rock Maul is on in the middle of a lava river. Now, if Maul's Force defenses were weak, do you think Vader would have simply used Force Choke and killed him, or Force Pushed him off the rock he was on instead of crushing it? Exactly.[/b]
Umm... okay. However, the fact remains that Vader didn't specifically use his force abilities- crush, choke, or whatever- to kill Maul. Maul's never displayed the force defenses superior to block such powerful attacks- I'd say that's case of PIS there, more than anything. Maul beat Vader in a strict duel- when the force enters the equation, I'd say the fight would take a different turn.
Originally posted by Enyalus
And your harping on Dooku's “OMG0rz” Makashi is as bad as Ox's. Maul's a master of Juyo. Juyo is deadlier than Makashi. And that he blends it with a martial art specifically designed for killing Jedi makes it even deadlier.
1. I'm not using it as my sole reason for Dooku attaining victory.
2. Makashi is the duelling form; the absolute best one for lightsaber dueling. In that department, it > Juyo.
This was a very well thought out response.
But I have found a double standard. Gideon doesn't like it when I use it, so as part of my training I have decided to point them out in others' posts as well as my own.
Originally posted by Master Crimson
There's no such thing a 'superior form'- it so happened that Djem So combined with Anakin's physical power (granted to him by his force strength. Beyond anything Maul came close to displaying) happened to be the bane of Dooku. In the form of TPM Mace Windu, Dooku had already outsparred a physical beast utilizing an advanced, complete version of Juyo.
Originally posted by Master Crimson
Overall, possibly. In a strict saber duel? No form is [b]superior to Makashi, which was designed purely for lightsaber duelling.
You can't have it both ways, no matter how much you want to.
😄
Also, weren't you my illegitamate brother? How could you kill me? 😠
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
If you become my secret apprentice, I will assist you in fighting Gideon. Maybe.By the way, I believe you are either my illegitimate brother or my bastard offspring (god, I love how many variations there are on the common I-screwed-some-girl-and-that-was-just-plain-wrong scenario). Why? 'Cuz Crimson (Z added for awesomeness) is basically a variation of the color 'red' with a cooler name.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Oh, please. There's no proof that Mace refused to utilize Vaapad in his sparring sessions, considering that they are generally controlled, safe, and he likely possessed a 'friendly rivalry' of sorts with Dooku.Please, provide a quote in which Mace- until regular circumstances- is hesitant or refuse to unleash Vaapad's full power. Do that, or drop the point.
Bullshit. You're the one who claimed Mace used it to spar with Dooku on a regular basis. I've given reasons, from Mace's own words, why that wouldn't be the case. If you're making the contention that he did, then it's you who needs to prove it. Because that isn't evident. Especially when you consider that General Grievous had zero knowledge of Vaapad prior to him dueling Mace the first time. If Dooku and he sparred regularly and Mace used Vaapad, then clearly he'd know some of the working sequences.
That's very much true. However, it hardly speaks for the fact that Sidious was capable of fending him off despite being surprised, blind-sided, and attacked with all the fury of a man trained his entire life to feed on pain and anger.
First, he wasn't blind-sided or surprised. Stop saying it. I've shown it is wrong. He was expecting it, even hoping for it, so that Maul would complete his final test and attain the rank of Sith Lord. Secondly, that's what Maul does. He's an 'engine of pure hatred' – that's how he fights. With unbelievable fury.
If Dooku went batshit crazy and blind-sided Sidious, I doubt Sidious would have had a walk in the park with him- even if Dooku, say, had a gunshot wound in the stomach.
But he wouldn't because one, he's too much of a pansy to attack Sidious at all, and two, it isn't in his character to do so. Unlike Maul, who is pretty much all hate and anger.
And Dooku's pain resistance and channeling doesn't compare to Maul's.
I know. Maul's is far higher.
Serious danger =/= with ease. Yoda would beat Dooku down in a lightsaber fight, but I'd give Dooku something like a 2/10 chance of victory. Same with Sidious. With Maul, even that's an (unlikey) stretch.
That's nice. But not relevant. Sidious had an extremely difficult time fending off Maul and was almost killed in a lightsaber duel. The same can't be said of Dooku against either Yoda or Sidious. Continue to ignore the material if you want – that's why I initially cited my sources, so everyone else can decide for themselves.
While attacking a slower, unprepared, un-bloodlusted Sidious wielding a training saber while being insanely angry.
'Slower'? 'Unprepared'? Seriously, quit. Neither of the two are true unless you can prove it. Sidious was fully hoping and expecting Maul to attack him. That Maul's fury caught him off guard is not somehow an 'unfair' advantage. And if the man who trained him for more than 15 years so badly underestimated him, how do you think Dooku will do – a man also known for his arrogance and his distaste of alien species?
Moreover, Maul never knew Sidious was using a training saber until Sidious strikes him with it after his fury is spent. And according to Jedi vs. Sith a training saber works just as well in a duel as a standard lightsaber. So that Sidious used one isn't relevant to the discussion.
Huh? The high-level PT Jedi- even the more 'b-list' type ones- were certainly impressive, to a certain degree. Quinlan Vos, Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, Shaak Ti (as seen in TFU), for example. There are guys like Anakin and Obi-Wan, Depa Billaba, Sora Bulq- and Dooku was hailed as 'even more powerful' when he was a Sith.
Yeah, and Maul completely dominated two 'b-list' types in Qui-Gon and Anoon Bondara. Point?
Besides, merely 'dangerous' is less than 'powerful'- hell, Jango Fett can be more dangerous and a more effective killer than some top-tier Jedi. But he is a more powerful? Can he take them in a straight fight (this is a straight fight)? Not necessarily. Maul's an assassin. He's bred to be dangerous.
Okay? Did I ever use 'dangerous'? I don't know where you got that argument.
Oh, come on. Vader's raw power may be more than Dooku's, but it's a slight-margin, at best. And in saber skill? Dooku had practiced his Makashi to a longer time and to a greater extent than anyone in the mythos. Vader doesn't- he's not as technically skilled as Dooku, and if he can take Dooku down in a duel, it's thanks to Djem So's advantages over Makashi. And that ONLY. Dooku is overall a more dangerous saber user.
Um, that's mostly what Darth Vader does – train. His saber skills were so advanced that he essentially created his own form in a modified Form V, which according to Rise of Darth Vader drew on all seven forms, including Makashi. He also trained Galen Marek in Ataru, Shien, and Juyo. So yes, his saber skills are superior to the Count's or at the bare minimum on par. And even though Dooku was proclaimed to be a telekinetic prodigy, Vader's TK greatly dwarfs any display we've seen from Dooku. So yes, Vader's power is greater as well.
Quote? You're the guy with the unlimited quotes.
Gideon: You wanna help me out here? Do you know what I'm referring to?
Please, prove it. In addition, the fact remains that even after dismantling Obi-Wan and leaving to fight Qui-Gon alone, he was incapable of gaining a significant advantage-
Read The Phantom Menace novelization. How many quotes have I provided already in this debate which you choose to ignore? For anyone to suggest that his duel against Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan was anything but easy is ludicrous.
in addition, how the hell would he know the exact details of that fighting location? He's never been there in his life, and we certainly have no record of him studying it.
He's been there for how many weeks? I believe the Complete Visual Dictionary and TPM novelization both say that he led them to the cooling room intentionally.
Umm... so? It proves that Anakin's unbelievable raw power and fury caused him to unleash incredible strength beyond Makashi's ability to control- Maul is never recorded to be capable of using strength-levels even vaguely resembling that.
'so?' Your initial contention was that Dooku was exhausted during his duel with Anakin. That's incorrect. Furthermore, it wasn't just Anakin's raw power which proved disadvantageous to Dooku's Makashi. The Revenge of the Sith novelization states that Makashi didn't generate the kinetic energy necessary to combat Djem So head-on. And in Jedi vs. Sith Juyo's power is compared directly to Djem So's. Dooku's going to have problems. Serious ones.
Yet he is never depicted to either own Qui-Gon with physical strength, or strike him all angles, preventing him from launching a counter-attack, that beside from Maul wielding a double-bladed lightsaber, fighting Dooku's inferior, and Makashi being known for it's quick attacks (unlike Ataru, Qui-Gon's form).
The 'advantage of youth and strength' was a quote. Yes, he does overpower him. I believe the CVD says that Maul's physical conditioning pushed 'to its utmost' (although Gideon would know the quote better). Juyo is the deadlier form, of which Maul is a master of in addition with wielding a weapon Makashi was never designed to combat (the saberstaff), mixing it with a powerful martial art, and generating powerful kinetic energy which Makashi cannot handle.
That you're even arguing how the authors decided to depict the battles is desperate.
There's no such thing a 'superior form'-
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Overall, possibly. In a strict saber duel? No form is superior to Makashi, which was designed purely for lightsaber duelling.
it so happened that Djem So combined with Anakin's physical power (granted to him by his force strength. Beyond anything Maul came close to displaying) happened to be the bane of Dooku.
Wrong. The ROTS novelization, from Dooku's point of view, mentions that Makashi didn't generate the kinetic energy to combat Djem So specifically. It mentions nothing about the fact that it was because Anakin was the one wielding it.
In the form of TPM Mace Windu, Dooku had already outsparred a physical beast utilizing an advanced, complete version of Juyo.
Wrong. As again, Windu never regularly used Vaapad in sparring matches due to its dangerous and dark nature.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
So? Luke's instinctive grasp of the force, his raw power, and his (short) training all factor in- besides, there is nothing here that states the degree of Luke's speed. Or do you think he moved faster than Yoda and Sidious back there? He has more raw power than they do. By your logic, he should have moved twice as fast as they did.
Apparently you can't read. Here are the relevant parts:
”I cannot say I felt in complete control of it...the will of the Force guides our actions.”
Sorry, the displays of speed demonstrated by high-end force masters like Yoda and Sidious- and, to a lesser degree, Mace- is superior to the speed displayed by people like Anakin. Luke's speed evidently grows as his force mastery does, too.
Anakin's blade moved so quickly in his battle with Dooku that Dooku could only see the room through electric blue haze. Instinctive use based upon power.
Dooku is far, far, oh so far more than a 'Sith weapon', a 'dangerous Sith apprentice', or a deadly whatnot. He's an incredibly powerful, incredibly skilled Sith Lord- he simply couldn't summon the stamina and the kinetic energy to face Anakin's barrage- Maul is never recorded to unleash such barrages against other force users.
Oh, god. Here we go again. His Makashi couldn't handle Djem So. The raw power of Juyo is directly comparable to Djem So. And as far as stamina, I've already said he was completely refreshed during his final battle with Anakin.
'You're sure' is speculation-
”Any display of fear on his part was punished with vicious retribution. Any hint of mercy in his character was rewarded with severe cruelty. On those rare occasions when he relaxed his guard, his master nearly killed him to remind him that a Sith can never afford a moment of rest.”
You decide what he used to inflict the severe pain and nearly kill him.
and if Sidious would have used his lightning to its full power against Maul by TPM (inferior to RotS), Maul would be dead,
Now who is speculating? Prove it. Considering his lightning only knocked out Yoda and couldn't kill Mace. And they've never walked through Force Lightning before nor are they accustomed to intense pain and feed on hatred.
considering that his lightning was capable of knocking out Yoda for several seconds- a Yoda that raised his hand in futile defense, likely negating a portion of that lightning's power.
What movie were you watching? Yoda doesn't do anything at all.
Maul won't have the time to do that while trapped in an intense duel. Does he know what it is? Possibly. And it will serve as a distaction- but I doubt Maul will whip it out if Dooku force-raped him in close range. Which he could certainly do.
No, he can't certainly do it, unless you can prove it. He does it to Obi-Wan while he has a free two seconds or so, not during the middle of a duel against a highly skilled and dangerous and fast opponent. Maul has sparred with and fought with Darth Sidious, and also Darth Vader. And considering that Path of Destruction mentions that a force shield is one of the first things you learn to do when in saber combat, it's completely absurd to think Maul would be dominated with the Force while in the duel.
2. Dooku wasn't exactly fully concentrated on killing Anakin, right?
Probably not, but simply because one isn't trying to kill you does not mean they are not applying themselves fully. Makashi is designed to disarm the opponent first and foremost. Killing is a choice after that.
Yes, it does. It's a good deal of why Dooku schooled Obi-Wan and Anakin in AotC.
Neither of them had mastered their respective forms yet. That's why Dooku schooled them.
Yoda is less of an avid lightsaber user and practitioner than Dooku, too.
And yet he still dominates him during their duels. That helps my point that 'experience isn't everything,' doesn't it?
Physically and mentally demanding- Makashi relies almost purely on the user's sheer skill and fencing ability, rather than force-enhanced power and physicality. In the technical aspect, it's the more demanding form.
And you have sources to back this up as opposed to personal assertions?
Overall, possibly. In a strict saber duel? No form is superior to Makashi, which was designed purely for lightsaber duelling.
More lies. I've posted evidence why this is false. You keep using it. Find me some proof beyond 'ultimate refinement in lightsaber to lightsaber combat' or stop using it. Moreover, if it were the superior dueling form, why is Djem So it's Achilles heel? Precisely.
Umm... okay. However, the fact remains that Vader didn't specifically use his force abilities- crush, choke, or whatever- to kill Maul. Maul's never displayed the force defenses superior to block such powerful attacks- I'd say that's case of PIS there, more than anything. Maul beat Vader in a strict duel- when the force enters the equation, I'd say the fight would take a different turn.
More speculation on your part. If he could have ended the battle, he would have. Especially when Vader is on the ground, disarmed, with Maul's blade raised ready for the final blow. Maul was trained by Sidious personally, the most powerful Sith Lord in history. To think he wouldn't have learned how to properly defend himself is an erroneous assumption.
1. I'm not using it as my sole reason for Dooku attaining victory.2. Makashi is the duelling form; the absolute best one for lightsaber dueling. In that department, it > Juyo.
Which is why it can't generate the kinetic energy necessary to effectively combat Djem So, right? Please.
Um, what?
a.) How does Darth Vader's ability to draw upon techniques from multiple forms indicate superiority over Dooku in lightsaber combat? Especially when, throughout the same damn source, he also laments and fears that his capabilities with a lightsaber have deteriorated. He muses how only "Dooku, Asajj Ventress, and Obi-Wan were skilled enough to injure him with a blade" and wonders why "so unaccomplished a Jedi Knight" was able to replicate the same feat. Keep in mind that Count Dooku was more than capable of fending off aggressive attacks from General Grievous during their sessions and that he claimed that he would have to demonstrate to Grievous what attacks he'd receive from Council masters. Dooku is more than familiar with other modes of combat. Also bear in mind that he disarms two Magnaguards with a single swipe of his lightsaber in Labyrinth of Evil.
b.) Your point regarding Makashi is ridiculous. It was the form specifically designed for fencing and swordplay. In terms of sheer technique, it's obviously far more practical and appropriate than any other lightsaber form.
c.) He was watching Revenge of the Sith, where Yoda reaches out his hands to deflect the Force lightning and gets promptly nailed into the wall.
d.) If he's using a training saber, it means that Sidious had no intention of killing Maul. Which means that he was restraining himself.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Point B has already been addressed.
Not very well at all.
Vaapad being a "deadlier" form does not mean that it is superior in strict bladwork to Makashi.
As for Point D, no, using a training saber would really suggest the opposite. That he was able to go all out without worry of killing or seriously injuring Maul.
LOL. Are you serious? This is a very pitiful attempt to save face, Enyalus. You could have at least ignored it, like you have done with the other two points.
It wouldn't suggest the opposite. If it were a legitimate duel to the death, Sidious would have used a real lightsaber that would allow him to end Maul's life if necessary. That he chose to wield a harmless weapon would indicate that he had no intention of injuring Maul.
Common sense, please. You yourself testified that the purpose of the duel was to test Maul's rage and willingness to kill his own master, not Sidious's willingness to kill him.
Originally posted by Gideon
It wouldn't suggest the opposite. If it were a legitimate duel to the death, Sidious would have used a real lightsaber that would allow him to end Maul's life if necessary. That he chose to wield a harmless weapon would indicate that he had no intention of injuring Maul.Common sense, please. You yourself testified that the purpose of the duel was to test Maul's rage and willingness to kill his own master, not Sidious's willingness to kill him.
I never suggested it was a 'duel to the death' or that he an 'intention of injuring Maul.'
You're the one who made the fallicious statement that because he wasn't trying to kill him, he was restraining himself. Which is wrong. If he had been using a real lightsaber and not trying to kill him, you'd have a point. He wasn't. You don't.