Dooku vs Maul and Ventress

Originally posted by Enyalus
I never suggested it was a 'duel to the death' or that he an 'intention of injuring Maul.'

Um... what?

You're the one who made the fallicious statement that because he wasn't trying to kill him, he was restraining himself. Which is wrong.

You clearly lack a martial arts background and basic common sense. As someone who has both, I'll educate you: unless you intend to maim, inflict great injury upon, or kill your opponent, you are restraining yourself. That's a very simple concept that you, for some reason, don't seem to grasp. The goal was to entice Maul to bloodlust and attempt to kill Sidious, which was brought about my goading and taunting.

If he had been using a real lightsaber and not trying to kill him, you'd have a point. He wasn't. You don't.

This is the very essence of unbelievable stupidity.

Fact: Sidious was using a training saber -- a weapon that could not maim, inflict injury upon, or kill Darth Maul.

Fact: The goal of the exercise was to bait Maul into attacking Sidious with the intent to kill.

Conclusion: Sidious was not attacking Maul to the best of his ability and was restraining himself.

With each response, you neglect a point. Does this mean I can now look forward to no response from you at all?

Gideon, when you know whatever blow you land will not injure the person you're testing, why would you hold back or restrain yourself?

'You wouldn't' is the correct answer.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Gideon, when you know whatever blow you land will not injure the person you're testing, why would you hold back or restrain yourself?

'You wouldn't' is the correct answer.

Enyalus, it's a sign that the whole fight was a joke to Sidious. He handicapped himself by using a nonlethal weapon and still defeated Maul in combat. When he goaded Maul, the fledgling Sith attacked him in anger, briefly gained a position of advantage (much like Obi-Wan with Maul), and was disarmed again, and then bit Sidious in a fit of animal savagery.

And then Sidious revealed the whole time that he was using a nonlethal weapon.

The answer is: "He clearly wasn't attacking Maul with the intent to kill from the very onset of the fight. It was never on his agenda."

Meaning? Even restrained, Sidious dominated Maul.

Okay, it's clear you don't get it. I'm not saying nor ever said that Sidious wanted to kill Maul. It's apparent he doesn't.

Your logic that nonlethal = restrained is faulty.

A training saber - for a duel - is exactly the same as a real saber save for the fact the beam is not powerful enough to cut through flesh. He could have gone full out against Maul and not needed to worry about injuring or killing him.

Training saber =/= restraining one's swordsmanship.

meh I'd have to say that if maul does not succumb to his pride, Maul and ventress take this. Maul has all that mastery of multiple forms, ended a fight in a draw, causing the foremost swordsman at the time of tpm to commit suicide in order to kill him, resisted force lightning, (I'm not sure how powerful dooku's is in comparison to the nightsiders, but that resistance has to say something), and uses juyo, which is probably bad for dooku's saber style, i mean, strong, super fast swings that call upon the user's force wrath? That's a lot like what anakin used to kill him dooku. I don't think that his delicate deflecting style would be able to do much to defend against maul's juyo. And the fact that ventress will be helping just puts it more in maul's favor.

Count Dooku can [easily] withstand the blows of General Grievous; a cyborg possessing four metallic limbs. Not to mention Grievous can strike 16 times per second and was trained in all seven styles of combat - including Djem So and Juyo. Trained by Count Dooku himself I might add - indicating the Dark Lord's proficiency in multiple lightsaber styles.

So tell me how Darth Maul, possessing no metallic or robotic enhancements, will be able to produce a similar amount of kinetic energy which could match, or surpass, General Grievous?

Because it seems to me Enyalus, that the bulk of your argument relies on Juyo being the superior duelling form - which it's not; and Maul being able to harness sufficient kinetic force to throw Dooku off balance - which he can't.

Ok i was putting in arguments for Maul putting up a good fight here. but theres no need to downplay dooku at all. hes in the top 5 prequel jedi/siths.

Makashi is the Ultimate duelling form. thats it. end of story. Form 7(Juyo, Vapaad) is the overall deadliest, in combatting all things, but when it comes to pure blade to blade fencing, Makashi's the style to use.

Thats why Shaak Ti was a far superior duelist to Galen Marek, and why Dooku was far superior to Sora Bulq. Theres no need to downplay Dooku or Makashi.

and Djem So is not Mkashi's weakness.. the quote from the ROTS novel was that Makashi didnt generate the kinetic energy to meet Djem So "Head On" especially "While Fending off another opponent". He doesnt have to fight Head On.. he can just deflect and parry. and btw right after that quote Dooku takes advantage of Djem So's weakness to knock Anakin down.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Count Dooku can [easily] withstand the blows of General Grievous; a cyborg possessing [b]four metallic limbs. Not to mention Grievous can strike 16 times per second and was trained in all seven styles of combat - including Djem So and Juyo. Trained by Count Dooku himself I might add - indicating the Dark Lord's proficiency in multiple lightsaber styles.

So tell me how Darth Maul, possessing no metallic or robotic enhancements, will be able to produce a similar amount of kinetic energy which could match, or surpass, General Grievous?

Because it seems to me Enyalus, that the bulk of your argument relies on Juyo being the superior duelling form - which it's not; and Maul being able to harness sufficient kinetic force to throw Dooku off balance - which he can't. [/B]

How did anakin do it? Its called the force.

"Six there were for generations of Jedi. The seventh, is not well-known. Powerful form it is. Deadliest of all. But dangerous it is, for its master as well as its opponent. Few have studied. One student alone, to mastery has risen."
―Yoda

Also, grevious has not been trained in all forms of lightsaber combat and multiple forms of lightsaber combat since youth. According to the article: Grevious, unknown soldier, grevious only learned lightsaber combat in the few years he lived after his transformation into a cyborg.

Comparing grevious with dooku to determine the fight between maul and dooku would be unwise.

Indeed, makashi is the stronger of the dueling forms, but I think that juyo is most likely to be the style that would be strongest against it due to the power that juyo transfers upon impact.

The fact that assajj is helping him out, its very likely that the team will win.

Gideon: I apologize for being laconic last night. From my 'Point B has already...' post to my last post of the night I was on the phone and thus distracted.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Because it seems to me Enyalus, that the bulk of your argument relies on Juyo being the superior duelling form - which it's not; and Maul being able to harness sufficient kinetic force to throw Dooku off balance - which he can't.

From Revenge of the Sith novelization, taken from Count Dooku's point of view:

"His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head."

"He dropped low and spun into another reverse ankle-sweep-the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility-that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance..."

From Jedi vs. Sith, Cin Drallig describing the lightsaber forms:

"Form I does not address lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. Form II, also called Makashi, represents the ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. Masters of Form II develop unique offenses and defenses, and train studiously against having their weapons taken or damaged."

"Form IV, also called Ataru, is the most acrobatic Form, filled with numerous elaborate moves...By incorporating all the Force powers that enable one to exceed standard norms of physical possibilities, Jedi may resemble nothing less than a blur when they utilize Form IV."

"Forms V focuses on strength and lightsaber attack moves...Form V's Djem So variation is devoted specifically to lightsaber dueling. A dedication to power and strength necessary to defeat an opponent is characterizes the philosophy of Form V..."

"Juyo is the most difficult and demanding of all forms. Only high-level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control this discipline, which can lead to fantastic power and skill. Form VII employs bold, direct movements, more open and kinetic than Form V, but not so elaborate in appearance as the acrobatic Form IV. Unlike Form V, Form VII requires greater energy because the focus is wielded more broadly, and draws upon a deeper well of emotion; while the outward bearing of a Form VII practitioner is one of calm, the inner pressure verges on explosion. And unlike the graceful, linked movements of Form IV, Form VII tactics overwhelm opponents with seemingly unconnected staccato sequences. This combination of traits makes Form VII highly unpredictable in battle."

From Shatterpoint, Yoda speaking:

"Six there were for generations of Jedi. The seventh, is not well-known. Powerful form it is. Deadliest of all."

Now, I think I've covered just about everything. Clearly, from Dooku's own thoughts - Makashi doesn't generate the necessary kinetic energy to duel against Djem So. However, its weakness is lack of mobility. Now look at Juyo - direct, bold, and powerful just like Djem So. Requiring even more energy and emotion (being wielded by a master of Juyo who is fueled solely by his hatred and anger) than Djem So. Yet, unlike Djem So's lack of mobility, Juyo does just the opposite - drawing off of Form IV's open and kinetic style to overwhelm opponents with highly unpredicatable movements. Yoda, who has trained Ataru to its highest level, says that Juyo is the deadliest lightsaber style of all. And Cin Drallig seems to agree. Drallig mentions Makashi being the ultimate refinement in lightsaber-to-lightsaber dueling - but that's because Form I didn't deal with it at all! So yes, Makashi is dedicated strictly to dueling, but there are other forms which are also solely devoted to saber duels...like Djem So. And Juyo, seemingly drawing from at least two other styles seems even deadlier and without the weaknesses which Djem So possess. Added to this style is Maul's incorporation of a deadly hand-to-hand martial art specifically designed to kill Jedi - and it turns into something far more lethal.

Maul was able to defeat with ease Qui-Gon Jinn, a saber prodigy and Dooku's best apprentice, who was on par with TPM Mace Windu...who Dooku was also on par with. And he does this with a thigh/ankle injury.

Maul, while enraged, also threatened Palpatine's life in a duel:

"Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all. Eventually Maul spent his fury, and Darth Sidious still stood."

I'll remind everyone once again that Maul was in no condition to even enter that duel. He had been hunted by assassin droids on an abandoned Outer Rim planet for a month, was exhausted, starved, and wounded. And before anyone gives the lame excuse, "BUT EN HE WAS ENRAGED LOL" I'll redirect you to the Juyo passage above, regarding the use of emotions and the fact that he is described as an 'engine of pure hate' and called 'the perfect Sith weapon.' Meaning, that is his norm. He's full of hate and will do whatever it takes to win. Slash, thrust, kick, punch, claw, bite, whatever. His hate fuels him. Perfect for Juyo.

Added to that is the fact that saber-wise, he absolutely dominates a peak OT Darth Vader. Maul lands six hits, including one slash across the ribs and one blow to the head - to Vader's one killing blow by impaling himself to hit him.

There's no reason to think Dooku is Maul's superior in bladework. At all. He takes the saber battle. It would be close, but one-on-one, he would prevail. And with Ventress added in for the slight distraction, the team wins...like I said before.

Originally posted by Enyalus

There's no reason to think Dooku is Maul's superior in bladework. At all. He takes the saber battle. It would be close, but one-on-one, he would prevail. And with Ventress added in for the slight distraction, the team wins...like I said before.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
now don't say that, Dooku has 80 years of experience in the form dedicated to lightsaber dueling. If anything, say that maul draws with dooku and even comes out ahead, and ventress turns the scales totally. Dooku has ALOT that would make one think he is superior in bladework.

Like what? Running from Mace? Being dominated by Yoda? Being terrified of Sidious? Being stomped by Anakin?

He wins against Ventress, Bulq, and Obi-Wan with the Force. Show me an impressive dueling victory that Dooku has. And don't bother with GG, especially when he's the one who taught Grievous everything he knew, and according to some people's logic - they were only sparring, thus not going for the kill, thus restraining themselves.

Oh, and Dooku was 83 when killed - so unless he was dueling since he was 3 (he wasn't), he doesn't have 80 years of experience with a saber.

And Maul got owned by a padawan who Dooku would later curbstomp (twice) and also lived in perpetual fear of Sidious to the point that he would end his own life if his Master ordered it (Shadow Hunter).

I'm getting more than annoyed, Enyalus, with you taking events out of context. Keep in mind that going down that route will only serve to make Maul look even more ridiculous.

Best just stick to a fair interpretation, because it's the only set of circumstances where you have a shot in hell of making something of a point.

Originally posted by Gideon
Best just stick to a fair interpretation, because it's the only set of circumstances where you have a shot in hell of making something of a point.

I thought my second to last post was well thought out and backed with lots of sources, and a reasonable interpretation of events, showing why Maul's Juyo would give Dooku hell. And then after my well thought out reply I get a reply like:

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
now don't say that, Dooku has 80 years of experience in the form dedicated to lightsaber dueling. If anything, say that maul draws with dooku and even comes out ahead, and ventress turns the scales totally. Dooku has ALOT that would make one think he is superior in bladework.

By being incredibly sexy.

Originally posted by Gideon
By being incredibly sexy.

...I want you to know, I've always secretly had a mancrush on you. You're like Pellaeon, Shai, and Sidious rolled into one.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Like what? Running from Mace? Being dominated by Yoda? Being terrified of Sidious? Being stomped by Anakin?

He wins against Ventress, Bulq--

Lets talk about Bulq for a minute. Bulq mastered every form. Mastered. He's the one that Mace felt was skilled enough (as in as skilled as him) to help him develop vapaad. He was considered among the order's greatest swordsmen. Allow me to take from wookiepedia, as I could find all of this and place it here, but I really don't have the time or really feel like it.

Though Bulq was famous for his lightsaber talent, he was not weak in other aspects; Yoda recalled him as being very strong in the Force, and Jeisel felt that Bulq was as powerful as Windu; notably, in his duel with Windu on Ruul, Windu was able to end the fight with a well-placed Force Push the moment that he decided his efforts were best used elsewhere, suggesting Windu had a greater edge over Bulq than he was credited with.

So we see that Bulq is just below windu.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Like what? Running from Mace?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Being dominated by Yoda? Being terrified of Sidious? Being stomped by Anakin? ?

and btw the AOTC novel clearly states Yoda was "Exhausted" after his fight with Dooku. and in Obsessions he admits he doesnt need to practice sparring after his fight with Dooku. So Dooku at the very least provided good enough Sparring COMBAT for FRIGGIN YODA.. so much so that Yoda doesnt feel like he needs to spar anymore for a long while!

Originally posted by Enyalus

He wins against Ventress, Bulq, and Obi-Wan with the Force.

Dooku has completely outduelled all 3 of these guys before using the Force on them. Including Sora who knew Vapaad, who even Mace didnt defeat without the use of the Force.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Um, I'm pretty sure that maul>everyone you listed there.

Cool. I'm glad you think so.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
STOP RIGHT THERE!

Lets talk about Bulq for a minute. Bulq mastered every form. Mastered. He's the one that Mace felt was skilled enough (as in as skilled as him) to help him develop vapaad. He was considered among the order's greatest swordsmen.

So did and so was Anoon Bondara, who Maul took apart in 'moments.' Big deal.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Entirety of post...

That's nice, I don't care. It isn't like I was making an actual point with that statement, anyway.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Bullshit. You're the one who claimed Mace used it to spar with Dooku on a regular basis. I've given reasons, from Mace's own words, why that wouldn't be the case. If you're making the contention that he did, then it's you who needs to prove it. Because that isn't evident. Especially when you consider that General Grievous had zero knowledge of Vaapad prior to him dueling Mace the first time. If Dooku and he sparred regularly and Mace used Vaapad, then clearly he'd know some of the working sequences.

Huh? Why would Dooku teach Grievous Vaapad? It's the most difficult to master form. It also requires a connection to the force, and the utilization of its metaphysical properties makes it ultimately more demanding than Makashi.

In addition, there's no indication Mace ever feared using Vaapad's basic techniques in sparring sessions- if anything, using Vaapad against a supposedly superior opponent should enable Mace to develop it under controlled conditions.

Oh, and did I mention that Dooku- while exhausted from fighting a talented Jedi, the Chosen One, and the most powerful Jedi in history in a row- managed to defeat Sora Bulq and Jedi Master Tholme simultaneously? Bulq, while not Mace's equal, has been displayed to be capable of giving Mace a good fight and would logically use Vaapad in such a situation. Dooku was a dark sider, too- and Bulq was helpless when Dooku managed to use force lightning in close quarters, while simultaneously fighting two skilled Jedi. Yeah. He can certainly handle Vaapad and Juyo quite nicely.

Originally posted by Enyalus
First, he wasn't blind-sided or surprised. Stop saying it. I've shown it is wrong. He was expecting it, even hoping for it, so that Maul would complete his final test and attain the rank of Sith Lord. Secondly, that's what Maul does. He's an 'engine of pure hatred' – that's how he fights. With unbelievable fury.

Not always. Did he fight with 'unbelievable fury' against Qui-Gon? Bondara? Sidious pissed him off in the way only he can- Sidious just happens to be an incredible intelligent master of psychology who raised Maul. He would know every little thing about Maul's psyche, and how to anger him. Clearly, he was fighting far beyond his natural abilities.

Originally posted by Enyalus
But he wouldn't because one, he's too much of a pansy to attack Sidious at all, and two, it isn't in his character to do so. Unlike Maul, who is pretty much all hate and anger.

Umm... so? Dooku isn't a coward. And you're becoming dangerously close to sounding like the people who claimed that Sidious is a pathetic pansy who can't fight to save his life. Bullshit-hurlers.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I know. Maul's is far higher. [/'quote]

Yeah, which should give him a definite advantage when he has to endure extreme conditions. It won't help him when Dooku snaps his neck with TK.

[QUOTE=11194386]Originally posted by Enyalus
That's nice. But not relevant. Sidious had an extremely difficult time fending off Maul and was almost killed in a lightsaber duel. The same can't be said of Dooku against either Yoda or Sidious. Continue to ignore the material if you want – that's why I initially cited my sources, so everyone else can decide for themselves.

'Extremely difficult'? Now you're falling into the painful realm of hyperbole. It wasn't extremely difficult- he was just hard-pressed to defend against the attacks of a crazed beast trained his entire life to channel pain and fury to combat uses. In the case of Yoda vs. Dooku, Dooku wasn't batshit crazy, and Yoda managed to attack him (actually, they sort of attacked each other simultaneously).

Some more martial arts stuff- even if an inferior opponent attacks a superior one, if the inferior is angry enough and attacks without the opponent initially responding, it could be difficult to regain an offensive- and indeed, the instant Sidious regained his ground, Maul was effortlessly disarmed.

Originally posted by Enyalus
'Slower'? 'Unprepared'? Seriously, quit. Neither of the two are true unless you can prove it. Sidious was fully hoping and expecting Maul to attack him. That Maul's fury caught him off guard is not somehow an 'unfair' advantage. And if the man who trained him for more than 15 years so badly underestimated him, how do you think Dooku will do – a man also known for his arrogance and his distaste of alien species?

'Slower'? Yeah, increased force mastery = increased force speed. 'Unprepared'? I may give you that. But it was Sidious' intention to let Maul attack him- and he was most definetly surprised by the extent of Maul's power.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Moreover, Maul never knew Sidious was using a training saber until Sidious strikes him with it after his fury is spent. And according to Jedi vs. Sith a training saber works just as well in a duel as a standard lightsaber. So that Sidious used one isn't relevant to the discussion.

Quote.

And I'm not sure if this is true (maybe some quote masta could verify this), but check out what Wookieepedia has to say:

"Training lightsabers, also known as practice sabers, were low-powered lightsabers used by Jedi Initiates and younglings."

Now, think about that for a second. If a lightsaber is 'low-powered', it could be plausible that its energy can be overloaded by the discharge of a superior-powered lightsaber, like Maul's own. If this is true, it would force Sidious to utilize specialized techniques to avoid making Maul's saber hit his own with its full force. Just speculation, of course.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Yeah, and Maul completely dominated two 'b-list' types in Qui-Gon and Anoon Bondara. Point?

Dooku regularly outsparred General Grievous. General Grievous beat five 'b-list' types. Dooku also owned Sora Bulq and Tholme simultaneously while exhausted. Sora Bulq > Qui-Gon any day of the week, IMO.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Okay? Did I ever use 'dangerous'? I don't know where you got that argument.

'One of the most dangerous Sith apprentices of all time' is the Maul quote, right?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Um, that's mostly what Darth Vader does – train. His saber skills were so advanced that he essentially created his own form in a modified Form V, which according to Rise of Darth Vader drew on all seven forms, including Makashi. He also trained Galen Marek in Ataru, Shien, and Juyo. So yes, his saber skills are superior to the Count's or at the bare minimum on par. And even though Dooku was proclaimed to be a telekinetic prodigy, Vader's TK greatly dwarfs any display we've seen from Dooku. So yes, Vader's power is greater as well.

Umm... so? Modifying a form to your own desires his hardly unique- and while Vader certainly has a working knowledge of most forms, it hardly compares to Dooku's unparalled training in Makashi- 'the ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat'. Yeah, the form best suited for duelling.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Read The Phantom Menace novelization. How many quotes have I provided already in this debate which you choose to ignore? For anyone to suggest that his duel against Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan was anything but easy is ludicrous.

Well, if you insist:

"By the time Obi-Wan had recovered, Qui-Gon was in pursuit of Darth Maul, following him down the catwalk toward a small door at the far end of the power station. The Jedi Master went swiftly, legs and arms pumping, lightsaber flashing. He was worn and battered by now, close to exhaustion, but the Sith Lord was on the defensive at last, and he did not want to give him a chance to regroup."

As you can see, Maul was dominant throughout the time where Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan fought him simultaneously- however, individually, Qui-Gon caused him to be 'on the run' and on the defensive. Indeed, if Maul could 'easily' beat him, why was he forced on the defensive? Nothing directly states that he deliberately chose to go there in order to take advantage of Ataru's weaknesses.

Hell, I'm not saying that Qui-Gon is equal to Maul on neutral ground. Maul is definetly superior- but beating Qui-Gon wasn't a walk in the park for him.

Originally posted by Enyalus
He's been there for how many weeks? I believe the Complete Visual Dictionary and TPM novelization both say that he led them to the cooling room intentionally.

TPM novelization doesn't. If the Visual Dictionary states as much, I'll drop the point.

Originally posted by Enyalus
'so?' Your initial contention was that Dooku was exhausted during his duel with Anakin. That's incorrect. Furthermore, it wasn't just Anakin's raw power which proved disadvantageous to Dooku's Makashi. The Revenge of the Sith novelization states that Makashi didn't generate the kinetic energy necessary to combat Djem So head-on. And in Jedi vs. Sith Juyo's power is compared directly to Djem So's. Dooku's going to have problems. Serious ones.

No, Dooku was rapidly exhausted- his force reserves, too- by Anakin's strikes. He could replenish himself with the force to some degree, but not entirely- indeed, previous to 'replenishing' himself, Anakin caused Dooku to grow dizzy and lose his edge.

Going by your logic, every Djem So or Juyo user should beat any Makashi user. It's stupid. Anakin >>>> Maul in physical strength and force reserves, which is why he beat down Dooku in a way Maul is incapable of.

Originally posted by Enyalus
The 'advantage of youth and strength' was a quote. Yes, he does overpower him.

He doesn't overpower him because of that- he overpowers him due to managing to gain the offensive. Qui-Gon was exhausted at that point, and he lacked the space and the defensive capability to handle Maul's barrage. The instant Maul got the offensive, Qui-Gon was doomed.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I believe the CVD says that Maul's physical conditioning pushed 'to its utmost' (although Gideon would know the quote better).

Yeah, Maul is basically SW peak human. Or Zabrak. Or whatever. Physically, he kicks the shit out of most SW guys- but when you add force empowerment to the equation, many > him. Sidious, Mace, Yoda, Anakin, and Luke, to name a few.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Juyo is the deadlier form, of which Maul is a master of in addition with wielding a weapon Makashi was never designed to combat (the saberstaff), mixing it with a powerful martial art, and generating powerful kinetic energy which Makashi cannot handle.

Dooku is the best and most experienced Makashi practioner we know of- only Anakin's unique power was sufficient to beat him. Really, while juyo may, in general, be the deadliest form, Makashi is 'the ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber' combat. That's a canonical quote. It's, quite simply, the best form for dueling.

That you're even arguing how the authors decided to depict the battles is desperate.

Originally posted by Enyalus
So which is it, Crimzon? And by the way, you're wrong. Juyo is the most demanding and difficult form, requiring one to be a 'high end master of multiple forms' to even learn it, and repeatedly called the 'deadliest form' – even by Yoda. Ignore the sources all you want, everyone else can see them.

Makashi is the form most reliant on finesse, grace, accuracy, percision, etc. Juyo is incredibly physically taxing. Mentally, too. However, Makashi is- in that single aspect of lightsaber fighting- the best form.

And I'll say that the fact is that some forms are better than others at certain aspects, but overall, you can't say "Djem So is better than Soresu" or something like that. Juyo is, overall, the form best suited for lethal combat. Makashi is ideal for graceful duelling. Soresu has the best defensive qualities.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Wrong. The ROTS novelization, from Dooku's point of view, mentions that Makashi didn't generate the kinetic energy to combat Djem So specifically. It mentions nothing about the fact that it was because Anakin was the one wielding it.

Did you ignore all the quotes explaining that Anakin's incredible physical power was beyond Dooku's ability to handle? Djem So is just part of it. Dooku will destroy the average Djem So practitioner.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Apparently you can't read. Here are the relevant parts:

”I cannot say I felt in complete control of it...the will of the Force guides our actions.”

Umm... so? Luke's raw power and talent enabled him to utilize force speed instinctively. Of course he wouldn't control it fully- he's a neophyte at the time.

In addition, explain why more masterful force users display superior speed.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Anakin's blade moved so quickly in his battle with Dooku that Dooku could only see the room through electric blue haze. Instinctive use based upon power.

1. This is due in part to Anakin's strength causing Dooku to grow exhausted and become dizzy.

2. How does this compare to the speed displays accomplished by Yoda or Mace (Sidious stalemated the former and outclassed the latter in that department)? Mace's 'invisible' speed in comparison to Kar Vastor (who possessed incredible raw power), for example? Okay. Mace was, by implication, faster than Vastor. Vastor has raw power on par with Yoda. Obi-Wan implies in TPM "even Master Yoda" that Yoda's midichlorian count (raw power) is the Order's greatest. So, how could Mace Windu move faster than a guy with more raw power than himself?

Do you want me to bring up the description of Yoda's speed in the RotS script?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Oh, god. Here we go again. His Makashi couldn't handle Djem So. The raw power of Juyo is directly comparable to Djem So. And as far as stamina, I've already said he was completely refreshed during his final battle with Anakin.

He refreshed himself mid-battle- he did that while temporarily disengaged from Anakin. Do you honestly think he could do while handling Anakin's barrage? He was exhausted, dizzy, and nearly out of force reserves by the time he replenished himself.

Originally posted by Enyalus
”Any display of fear on his part was punished with vicious retribution. Any hint of mercy in his character was rewarded with severe cruelty. On those rare occasions when he relaxed his guard, his master nearly killed him to remind him that a Sith can never afford a moment of rest.”

You decide what he used to inflict the severe pain and nearly kill him.

With its full power? Hardly.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Now who is speculating? Prove it. Considering his lightning only knocked out Yoda and couldn't kill Mace. And they've never walked through Force Lightning before nor are they accustomed to intense pain and feed on hatred.

'Couldn't kill Mace'? BS. You haven't proven that- he was hurledout of the window after Sidious evidently wanted to torture him momentarily- the instant he is hurled out of the window, the screams end.

And 'only' knocked out Yoda is because it was one blast, not Sidious' regular continued one. While Yoda was raising one hand to attempt to block it.

Originally posted by Enyalus
What movie were you watching? Yoda doesn't do anything at all.

Watch it closely. Yoda manages to raise his hand in time to attempt to block it. He failed. Epically.