Dooku vs Maul and Ventress

Originally posted by Enyalus
No, he can't certainly do it, unless you can prove it. He does it to Obi-Wan while he has a free two seconds or so, not during the middle of a duel against a highly skilled and dangerous and fast opponent. Maul has sparred with and fought with Darth Sidious, and also Darth Vader. And considering that Path of Destruction mentions that a force shield is one of the first things you learn to do when in saber combat, it's completely absurd to think Maul would be dominated with the Force while in the duel. [B]

Two-words: Sora Bulq. One of the best swordmasters in the Order's history. Vaapad user (Vaapad evidently helps in fighting against lightning and other dark side attacks). Fights in tandem with Master Tholme. Gets owned by Dooku's lightning. In close range.

Originally posted by Enyalus
[B]Probably not, but simply because one isn't trying to kill you does not mean they are not applying themselves fully. Makashi is designed to disarm the opponent first and foremost. Killing is a choice after that.

So? Makashi, or that purposes, was designed by the Jedi- Dooku, as a Sith, would logically aim to kill an opponent if he so desired.

In addition, do you honestly think Sidious would genuinely want to let Dooku kill Anakin?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Neither of them had mastered their respective forms yet. That's why Dooku schooled them.

They were still powerful, talented Jedi.

Also, wasn't Obi-Wan mentioned to be a master of Ataru, too, somewhere? If so, that would require him to keep up his training from TPM.

Originally posted by Enyalus
And yet he still dominates him during their duels. That helps my point that 'experience isn't everything,' doesn't it?

Yoda is capable of harnessing speed and explosive force capability far beyond Dooku's own capability. Maul's, too. Dooku not losing in two seconds is a testament to his skill.

Originally posted by Enyalus
And you have sources to back this up as opposed to personal assertions?

It's the form that relies most on finesse, percision, and grace. It's basically the most refined form- in the technical aspect, it's definetly the best form.

Originally posted by Enyalus
More lies. I've posted evidence why this is false. You keep using it. Find me some proof beyond 'ultimate refinement in lightsaber to lightsaber combat' or stop using it. Moreover, if it were the superior dueling form, why is Djem So it's Achilles heel? Precisely.

Oh, come on. 'Ultimate refinement'. Obviously, it's the product of years of training of fighting saber-to-saber; while Djem So may be its Achilles heel, when utilized by a pracitioner as masterful as Dooku, can nearly destroy that flaw- indeed, this is proven by how he survived encounters with people as powerful as Mace Windu, Sora Bulq, and Anakin (pre-RotS). All users of either Djem So or Juyo. Only Anakin- thanks to his completely unmatched force reserves- can truly dominate Dooku in such a manner.

Originally posted by Enyalus
More speculation on your part. If he could have ended the battle, he would have. Especially when Vader is on the ground, disarmed, with Maul's blade raised ready for the final blow. Maul was trained by Sidious personally, the most powerful Sith Lord in history. To think he wouldn't have learned how to properly defend himself is an erroneous assumption.

He would have. Not only did Vader still manage to win, I doubt he could pull off such a powerful force attack in close-quarters- unlike Dooku, he isn't recorded to be capable of doing that against powerful opponents.

MAUL AND VENT. I think maul could beat him with sabers not by much but edge him out. Also dosnt it say that maul was an expert with the force he just prefers hand to hand combat. Also he was trained by sidious,and had to fight sidious just to become his apprentice. I dont know a whole lot about vent but isnt she bad ass with a saber as well and when she spared against dooku she impressed sidious. I think maul would be to agressive for dooku to take out vent easily,and anytime anyfight is 2 on 1 the 2 have the advantage its not like hes fighting 2 storm troopers.

Ventress is arrogant would want to prove herself as worthy a fighter a Maul(hahaha... as if!) and would most likely just get in Mauls way instead of backing him up. So I dnt think this would be a good duo.

If Dooku can easily seperate Anakin and Obi1 and keep them tripping over each other, then I dnt see seperating her from Maul as being too difficult for him especially considering he can put Ventress to the floor by merely lifting a finger,

Then it will be Maul vs. Dooku one on one, which will be much more difficult for the Count. The lightsaber battle will be an intense one, and tough for both of them but Im guessing at some point Dooku will gain an advantage using the Force and win.

Indeed. Ventress and Maul aren't exactly an Anakin and Obi-Wan class team here.

Originally posted by Gideon
Indeed. Ventress and Maul aren't exactly an Anakin and Obi-Wan class team here.

No, but Dooku has shown that it is just as easy for him to take out Ventress with the force, as it was for him to take Obi Wan out.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Huh? Why would Dooku teach Grievous Vaapad? It's the most difficult to master form. It also requires a connection to the force, and the utilization of its metaphysical properties makes it ultimately more demanding than Makashi.

So he wouldn't be completely clueless when having to face Mace? You'd think he'd add in some basic instructions about it. Or how to defend against it. But no, nothing. Furthermore, sure, true Vaapad would require a connection to the Force, but it isn't a requirement for learning it – as Grievous was able to synthesize a form close enough to it

In addition, there's no indication Mace ever feared using Vaapad's basic techniques in sparring sessions- if anything, using Vaapad against a supposedly superior opponent should enable Mace to develop it under controlled conditions.

You're gonna have to do better than that. Yes, there is.

”I developed Vaapad to answer my own weakness, and channel my inner darkness into a weapon for the light. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must give himself over to the thrill of battle, enjoying the fight and the satisfaction of winning. A Jedi must also accept and embrace the fury of his opponent. This transforms a Jedi into half of a superconducting loop, the other half being the power of the darkness, which passes in and out of the Jedi without touching him.

Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind, a path that leads through the penumbra of the Dark Side.”

When using Vaapad, Mace is channeling his own darkness regardless. Embracing the fury of the opponent is only one half of the superconducting loop – the other half being the power of Mace's own darkness. He's not going to use it in sparring sessions, especially against his colleagues. Now then, it is your contention that Mace used Vaapad against Dooku in their sessions. Find me a source to prove it. This alone is plenty of reason why Mace would not do such a thing.

Oh, and did I mention that Dooku- while exhausted from fighting a talented Jedi, the Chosen One, and the most powerful Jedi in history in a row- managed to defeat Sora Bulq and Jedi Master Tholme simultaneously? Bulq, while not Mace's equal, has been displayed to be capable of giving Mace a good fight and would logically use Vaapad in such a situation. Dooku was a dark sider, too- and Bulq was helpless when Dooku managed to use force lightning in close quarters, while simultaneously fighting two skilled Jedi. Yeah. He can certainly handle Vaapad and Juyo quite nicely.

LOL! Tholme, a skilled duelist? No, no, no. Find me an instance where Tholme wins a duel. I'll save you the trouble of looking and spoil it – you can't. Every time we see him in a duel, he's beat and forced to run. In Issue 49 of Republic it even says he's more of a mastermind of events than a warrior.

As for Bulq's Vaapad, it isn't the same as Mace's. He uses two blades, a normal lightsaber and a shortened parrying blade called a shoto, (I think). I would say Bulq and Tholme as a team are about as good as Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were. The latter was one of the best swordsmen of the Order, and Count Dooku noted that he was the best swordsman he had ever instructed (Dooku was a lightsaber instructor at the temple, remember). And while I acknowledge Bulq as being a very skilled duelist, so was Anoon Bondara. Allow me to share some narration quotes regarding his skill:

From the POTJ Sourcebook, taken from the narrator's and Darsha's perspective:

“Jedi Master Anoon Bondara, a Twi'lek Jedi renowned for his skill with the lightsaber. To Padawan Darsha, of course, Master Bondara's prowess was unmatched.”

From Cloak of Decception, taken from the narrator's perspective:

“A Twi'lek, with slender head-tails and a heavily muscled upper body, his name was Anoon Bondara, a duelist of unparalleled skill. Qui-Gon engaged him in matches at every opportunity. For a match with Bondara, no matter how brief, was more instructive than twenty contests against lesser opponents.”

And taken from Shadow Hunter, also from the narrator's perspective:

“The Twi'lek Jedi Master lived in the Force. Always still and complacent as a pool of unknown depth, he was nevertheless one of the best fighters in the order. His skill with a lightsaber was second to none.”

So, while I concede that Bulq is talented, forgive me for not being too impressed with Dooku's defeat of him, when Maul has at least dispatched a foe that worthy before. Not only that, but we have no idea of how difficult Bulq's fight with Dooku was, as we only see the very tail end of it from the comic. While from the start of Maul's fight with Anoon, we understand how hopelessly outclassed Bondara is:

“He pressed the attack viciously, blocking and thrusting, the twin radiant blades spinning a web of light about him.

The Jedi was obviously a master of the teras kasi fighting arts, as well, judging by the smooth way he parried and counterattacked. Still, within the first few moments of the engagement, Darth Maul knew that he himself was the superior fighter. He could tell that the Jedi knew it, too, but Maul also knew that it didn't matter. The Jedi was committed to stopping the Sith, or at the very least slowing him down enough to let the others get away, even if it meant giving his own life to do so.

Darth Maul had seen the grim realization in the eyes of his foe: the knowledge that the Twi'lek could not defeat his adversary. Once defeat was conceded in the mind, its reality was inevitable. It was only a matter of time.

He pressed his attack to an even higher intensity, driving the Jedi back toward his speeder bike, intending to pin him between the dual-bladed lightsaber and the bike. With his movements thus constricted, it would be mere moments before the Twi'lek's tentacled head was separated from his neck.”

Domination of an opponent who seems to be Qui-Gon's superior – who himself was Mace's equal during TPM. Yeah. He's that good.

Not always. Did he fight with 'unbelievable fury' against Qui-Gon? Bondara? Sidious pissed him off in the way only he can- Sidious just happens to be an incredible intelligent master of psychology who raised Maul. He would know every little thing about Maul's psyche, and how to anger him. Clearly, he was fighting far beyond his natural abilities.

As you can see above, Maul also fought 'viciously' against Bondara. And against Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, he does not...but only because he was leading them into a place of his choosing, as I'll show later. Furthermore, if you're going to say that while being wounded, exhausted, starving, and just previously beaten in a duel before you engage in another one is fighting 'far beyond' your natural abilities, you're going to have to prove it. With substance. Because otherwise, no, he was not. Maul was just that damned good.

“One of the most dangerous Sith apprentices in history.”

“Darth Maul is one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the Order.”

“...pushing his physical and Force-assisted abilities to the utmost...”

“Traditionally only used as a training device, the doubled ended saber can be much more dangerous to its wielder than an enemy. In the hands of Darth Maul, however, it becomes a whirling vortex of lethal energy.”

"...the perfect Sith weapon."

"He [Darth Maul] is an engine of pure hate."

“He mastered the lightsaber and the Sith Ianvorak...”

“The dark side blossomed in Darth Maul, the power of it resonating in him like black lightning, augmenting his years of training, guiding his reactions.”

“Darth Maul was a warrior in his prime, never to be any better, his powers at their apex.”

“He was ever mindful of the here and now, and was thus acutely attuned to the Living Force – albeit the Force's dark side.”

See? Just like Dooku, he's got plenty of accolades to his credit.

Umm... so? Dooku isn't a coward. And you're becoming dangerously close to sounding like the people who claimed that Sidious is a pathetic pansy who can't fight to save his life. Bullshit-hurlers.

You said that if Dooku went 'batshit crazy' he could threaten Sidious' life, too. I'm saying that's irrelevant, because Dooku wouldn't do that. And I'm right.

Yeah, which should give him a definite advantage when he has to endure extreme conditions. It won't help him when Dooku snaps his neck with TK.

Prove that he can do it to someone of Maul's caliber, a noted 'wizard of the Force' himself who was acutely attuned to the Dark Side of the Force, physical and metaphysical powers at their apex.

'Extremely difficult'? Now you're falling into the painful realm of hyperbole. It wasn't extremely difficult- he was just hard-pressed to defend against the attacks of a crazed beast trained his entire life to channel pain and fury to combat uses. In the case of Yoda vs. Dooku, Dooku wasn't batshit crazy, and Yoda managed to attack him (actually, they sort of attacked each other simultaneously).

It was extremely difficult. Sidious almost lost his life defending himself from Maul's fury:

'Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all. Eventually Maul spent his fury, and Darth Sidious still stood.'

It's irrelevant that Dooku wasn't bloodlusted (which on Vjun he basically is), he never threatens Yoda's life. The outcome of their duel is never in question.

and indeed, the instant Sidious regained his ground, Maul was effortlessly disarmed.

Prove it.

'Slower'? Yeah, increased force mastery = increased force speed.

Prove it or concede the point. LOTF Luke even mentions the unpredictability of Force Speed:

"The burst of speed I experienced was not a fluke, but unlike other Force powers, I cannot say I felt in complete control of it. All of you should bear in mind that while it often seems we use the Force achieve our goals, it is ultimately the will of the Force that guides our actions.”

'Unprepared'? I may give you that. But it was Sidious' intention to let Maul attack him- and he was most definetly surprised by the extent of Maul's power.

And Sidious had trained him for at least 15 years and had intimate knowledge about Maul's potential and training regime. You think Dooku won't be caught off guard?

Quote.

And I'm not sure if this is true (maybe some quote masta could verify this), but check out what Wookieepedia has to say:

"Training lightsabers, also known as practice sabers, were low-powered lightsabers used by Jedi Initiates and younglings."

Now, think about that for a second. If a lightsaber is 'low-powered', it could be plausible that its energy can be overloaded by the discharge of a superior-powered lightsaber, like Maul's own. If this is true, it would force Sidious to utilize specialized techniques to avoid making Maul's saber hit his own with its full force. Just speculation, of course.

It is speculation, and Jedi vs. Sith doesn't suggest anything to confirm it.

”...nonlethal training sabers, which do not focus their power strongly enough to cut through objects, are a relatively new invention...”

Furthermore, it goes on to add:

”...Jedi Knights and Masters clashing using lightsabers set to a nonlethal “sparring mode,” and Luke Skywalker continues to emphasize lightsaber training within the ranks of his new Jedi Order.”

So if you're going to throw out Maul 'nearly besting his master,' you need to throw out Dooku ever beating Mace in their sparring matches.

Dooku regularly outsparred General Grievous. General Grievous beat five 'b-list' types.

Yeah. And Dooku also trained Grievous. Check the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan fight to see how that helps someone.

Dooku also owned Sora Bulq and Tholme simultaneously while exhausted. Sora Bulq > Qui-Gon any day of the week, IMO.

Firstly, nothing at all indicates he was exhausted. Especially when he gloats that, ”Are you clever enough to comprehend how much more powerful I have become? Are you clever enough to join me there?” There's no indication he's even winded. Do you have the comic? I do.

Secondly, I'm glad you mentioned the “IMO” part – because nothing really suggests that.

Umm... so? Modifying a form to your own desires his hardly unique- and while Vader certainly has a working knowledge of most forms, it hardly compares to Dooku's unparalled training in Makashi- 'the ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat'. Yeah, the form best suited for duelling.

You continue to miss the context, even though I've posted it for you.

"Form I does not address lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. Form II, also called Makashi, represents the ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. Masters of Form II develop unique offenses and defenses, and train studiously against having their weapons taken or damaged."

Form I doesn't focus on lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat at all! So Form II is specifically devoted to it. Nothing notes that it is the best. 'Ultimate refinement.' Well, here's what 'refinement' can mean:

-Noun

1.Finesse or elegance of feeling, taste, manners, language, etc.
2.An instance of refined feeling, manners, etc.
3.The act of process of refining.
4.The quality or state of being refined.
5.A subtle point or distinction.
6.Subtle reasoning.
7.An improved, higher, or extreme form of something.

You and Ox suggest it means seven, when it could also very clearly indicate number one, which is the primary definition of the word 'refinement.'

Challenge: Find me a quote saying Makashi is the best dueling form, or something similar.

Well, if you insist:

"By the time Obi-Wan had recovered, Qui-Gon was in pursuit of Darth Maul, following him down the catwalk toward a small door at the far end of the power station. The Jedi Master went swiftly, legs and arms pumping, lightsaber flashing. He was worn and battered by now, close to exhaustion, but the Sith Lord was on the defensive at last, and he did not want to give him a chance to regroup."

As you can see, Maul was dominant throughout the time where Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan fought him simultaneously- however, individually, Qui-Gon caused him to be 'on the run' and on the defensive. Indeed, if Maul could 'easily' beat him, why was he forced on the defensive? Nothing directly states that he deliberately chose to go there in order to take advantage of Ataru's weaknesses.

You ignored what came before that. This part, specifically:

“The Jedi Knights tried continually to press the attack, and indeed, the Sith Lord was moving away from the Naboo and the starfighters and back toward the hangar's far wall. But Qui-Gon recognized that while it might seem as if the Jedi were driving him before them, it was the Sith Lord who was controlling the struggle. Wheeling and spinning, leaping and somersaulting with astonishing ease, their enemy was taking them with him, drawing them on to a place of his own choosing. His agility and dexterity allowed him to keep them both at bay, constantly attacking while at the same time effectively blunting their counterattacks, relentlessly searching for an opening in their defense....The force of the fall or perhaps the unexpectedness of it left him visibly stunned, and Qui-Gon leapt down after him, sensing a chance to put an end to things. But the Sith Lord struggled back to his feet quickly and raced away, taking the battle in a new direction. By the time Obi-Wan had recovered, Qui-Gon was in pursuit of Darth Maul, following him down the catwalk toward a small door at the far end of the power station.”

See there? Then your quote comes into play. Qui-Gon thought he had Maul on the defensive, whereas in actuality it is very clear that Maul was the one doing the leading. The entire fight.

TPM novelization doesn't. If the Visual Dictionary states as much, I'll drop the point.

Answered above. I don't have the Complete Visual Dictionary with me to confirm it, but that should be proof enough.

No, Dooku was rapidly exhausted- his force reserves, too- by Anakin's strikes. He could replenish himself with the force to some degree, but not entirely- indeed, previous to 'replenishing' himself, Anakin caused Dooku to grow dizzy and lose his edge.

”He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

He lifted his blade, and beckoned.”

That is after he knocks Obi-Wan unconscious. During the last engagement of the Dooku/Anakin fight, Dooku is fully replenished. What you're talking about, him exhausting his Force reserves blocking Anakin's strikes, is before this. Far before this.

Going by your logic, every Djem So or Juyo user should beat any Makashi user. It's stupid.

Well, Bane (Djem So user) absolutely curbstomped Farfalla (Makashi user). Farfalla was a Jedi Master and Council Member, and second in command of the Army of Light, so couldn't have been weak. And was amped by battle meditation. And Anakin (Djem So user) absolutely curbstomped Dooku (Makashi user). Just sayin'.

Challenge: Find me one instance of a Djem So user losing to a Makashi user.

Anakin >>>> Maul in physical strength and force reserves, which is why he beat down Dooku in a way Maul is incapable of.

Maul was 'a warrior in his prime' who pushed his 'physical and Force-assisted abilities to [b]utmost[b] (not their utmost or his utmost), who was one of the 'most highly trained Sith' ever, who had 'mastered the lightsaber' and was regarded as the 'perfect Sith weapon.' Your contention that his physical strength was less than Anakin's is baseless. Especially when you look at the fact that Maul was able to break saberlocks from OT Darth Vader (physically stronger than Anakin) and physically overpower him.

He doesn't overpower him because of that- he overpowers him due to managing to gain the offensive. Qui-Gon was exhausted at that point, and he lacked the space and the defensive capability to handle Maul's barrage. The instant Maul got the offensive, Qui-Gon was doomed.

Again – not true. Reread that portion or watch the movie. Maul leaps across the cooling pit and Qui-Gon charges him, because he knows that to give Maul any kind of room to attack with his duel-bladed saber is a poor choice. Maul counterattacks beautifully and ends the match with a well placed thrust.

Yeah, Maul is basically SW peak human. Or Zabrak. Or whatever. Physically, he kicks the shit out of most SW guys- but when you add force empowerment to the equation, many > him. Sidious, Mace, Yoda, Anakin, and Luke, to name a few.

More baseless speculation. Again, he pushed his Force assisted abilities to the utmost. He's also known as being a 'wizard of the Force,' 'acutely attuned to the Living Force,' 'trained in both Sith lore and Jedi arts,' whose Dark Side powers 'blossomed.' Another quote from the TPM novel to fan the flames:

”“He had no fear for himself, no doubt that he would win. He was focused in a way that Qui-Gon recognized at once-a Jedi's focus, mindful of the present, locked in on what was needed in the here and now. Qui-Gon saw it in his mad eyes and in the set of his red and black tattooed features. The Sith Lord was a living example of what the Jedi Master was always telling Obi-Wan about how best to hear the will of the Force.”

Again, he's no chump with the Force. And his powers were 'at their apex.'

Dooku is the best and most experienced Makashi practioner we know of- only Anakin's unique power was sufficient to beat him. Really, while juyo may, in general, be the deadliest form, Makashi is 'the ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber' combat. That's a canonical quote. It's, quite simply, the best form for dueling.

Several things here. One, it doesn't really matter about Dooku's experience. Know why? Qui-Gon was in his sixties and one of the best swordsmen of the Jedi Order. Yet:

“But on this day, he had met his match. The Sith Lord he battled with Obi - Wan was [b]more than his equal in weapons training, and he had the advantage of being younger and stronger.”

That's right – it means that Qui-Gon's 50 or so years with a lightsaber meant nothing, because Maul's training was better and superior. Dooku had the same training Qui-Gon has for most of his 83 years. Experience won't be a factor.

Second, that shit about Anakin's “unique power” is wrong, and I've corrected you already. Quit ignoring it. Once again:

"His own elegant Makashi simply did [b]not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head."

What is Juyo's very description?

”Form VII employs [b]bold, direct movements, more open and kinetic than Form V...”

Juyo generates more kinetic energy than Djem So. And Maul is a physical monster who augments his physical strength with the Force, to which he is highly attuned to...plus the whole 'engine of pure hate' has to do wonders when one is a Dark Sider and can feed off of hate, right? Yeah. Exactly.

Third, you have my challenge. Find me a quote which says that Makashi is the best dueling form. 'Refinement' can mean many things, as I already posted. As it is, Juyo is the 'deadliest of all' and 'most difficult and demanding of all forms,' of which Maul is a master of, plus his variation of Teras Kasi thrown into the mix. And ontop of that, Maul's weapon makes him that much more powerful. 'Traditionally only used as a training device, the doubled ended saber can be much more dangerous to its wielder than an enemy. In the hands of Darth Maul, however, [b]it becomes a whirling vortex of lethal energy.'

Makashi is the form most reliant on finesse, grace, accuracy, percision, etc. Juyo is incredibly physically taxing. Mentally, too. However, Makashi is- in that single aspect of lightsaber fighting- the best form.

Wrong, until you prove it. Which you can't, because I'm right. 😛

Juyo is, overall, the form best suited for lethal combat. Makashi is ideal for graceful duelling. Soresu has the best defensive qualities.

Yes!! Mon ami, you see the light! Graceful dueling, absolutely. Refinement means 'finesse or elegance' – it's the primary definition. Overall lethality? Juyo. Most powerful and demanding? Juyo. Most explosive? Juyo. Most unpredictable? Juyo. And Maul has a hellish weapon, unparalleled martial arts skills, and has 'mastered the lightsaber.' Period.

Did you ignore all the quotes explaining that Anakin's incredible physical power was beyond Dooku's ability to handle? Djem So is just part of it.

I posted the quote, MC. Straight from Dooku's mind – Makashi doesn't have the power to match Djem So head-on. It's that simple. He can expose Djem So's weakness – it's lack of mobility...but Juyo isn't weak there, and is more physically overpowering and generates more kinetic energy than Djem So.

Dooku will destroy the average Djem So practitioner.

I agree. 😛 But the Count is hardly average himself.

Umm... so? Luke's raw power and talent enabled him to utilize force speed instinctively. Of course he wouldn't control it fully- he's a neophyte at the time.

That's a Pre-ROTJ Luke example, but Luke is describing it in 40 ABY – LOTF era. Coolness? If you want to check out more examples of me shooting it down (because I don't want to clutter this up with more quotes), I believe I give more examples on page three.

Originally posted by Enyalus

In addition, explain why more masterful force users display superior speed.

They don't always. But the ones who do, are tremendously powerful. That's why. But, hey, Maul can do superspeed too!

”The dark side blossomed in Darth Maul, the power of it resonating in him like black lightning, augmenting his years of training, guiding his reactions. Time seemed to slow, to stretch.”

He's also been noted as moving like a blur, but that was travel speed. This is in combat against two training droids. Has Dooku been noted to move this fast?

Bottom line – prove the theory or don't use it.

He refreshed himself mid-battle- he did that while temporarily disengaged from Anakin. Do you honestly think he could do while handling Anakin's barrage? He was exhausted, dizzy, and nearly out of force reserves by the time he replenished himself.

I posted the quote already. You should concede this point. Everyone can see that I represented it accurately. No where afterwards when they clash blades does it talk about Dooku's Force reserves draining again.

With its full power? Hardly.

Again, you don't know this, and neither do I. His full power blast as of ROTS only knocked Yoda out for brief moments. Pre-TPM, why not? I didn't say he'd sustain the barrage. Anywho, it hardly matters – Dooku's lightning finished knocking Bulq to the floor after he was already off-balance, it knocks AOTC Anakin out for a few minutes, is caught and reflected back by Yoda, and is caught on both Obi-Wan and Anakin's blades. By all accounts, Dooku's lightning won't be enough to seriously threaten Maul's chances of victory.

'Couldn't kill Mace'? BS. You haven't proven that- he was hurledout of the window after Sidious evidently wanted to torture him momentarily- the instant he is hurled out of the window, the screams end.

And you haven't proven that he wanted to torture him. By all accounts, Sidious hits him with his full powered Force Lightning, hence the 'Unlimited Power!' line. The screams dying off are due to the Doppler Effect.

Watch it closely. Yoda manages to raise his hand in time to attempt to block it. He failed. Epically.

Just watched it again. True. LOL

Two-words: Sora Bulq. One of the best swordmasters in the Order's history. Vaapad user (Vaapad evidently helps in fighting against lightning and other dark side attacks). Fights in tandem with Master Tholme. Gets owned by Dooku's lightning. In close range.

Point conceded...somewhat. When Dooku uses his lightning on Bulq, look how far away Tholme is standing. He's practically in the doorway. And Bulq was already off-balance from one of Dooku's strikes (his sholto had been dropped and everything). I think I've proven already, without a shadow of a doubt, that Maul is Bulq's superior in bladework and in the Force.

So? Makashi, or that purposes, was designed by the Jedi- Dooku, as a Sith, would logically aim to kill an opponent if he so desired.

Naw, you don't understand. I'm a fencer IRL, I hope you'll accept my explanation: foil and epee fencing focus on quick thrusts and jabs, and in general focus on hitting the hand, arm, or if you can get there – the torso. I think Makashi is similar. Striking the hand is the quickest way to end a duel, the opponent's hand being the closest thing to your own blade. That's what fencers, and Makashi users, go for first. Changing that style to, say, go for the head, would be very awkward and would really cease to be elegant fencing anymore (saber fencing, it would be called – and it's pretty ugly and not very fluid).

In addition, do you honestly think Sidious would genuinely want to let Dooku kill Anakin?

It's clear from the novel that Dooku is going for the kill, from the very moment he thinks 'No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than a new apprentice.'

They were still powerful, talented Jedi.

Come on, neither of them were on the level of Bulq, Qui-Gon, Bondara, Vader, etc. Not applicable.

Also, wasn't Obi-Wan mentioned to be a master of Ataru, too, somewhere?

Someone mentioned it, and I believe it to either be a slip up (like DK saying Sirak knew Vaapad) or completely made up, because that makes zero sense.

Yoda is capable of harnessing speed and explosive force capability far beyond Dooku's own capability. Maul's, too. Dooku not losing in two seconds is a testament to his skill.

Weak. Seriously. I don't even know how to respond to that. Dooku's one of the most powerful Jedi in their history, and a more powerful Sith Lord. And according to you and Ox, the ultimate master of the ultimate dueling form (it's not). He shouldn't ever get schooled in two seconds.

Anywho – I've already shown Maul using superspeed in combat. And that he is a physical beast with Force-assisted enhancements to their utmost, using a form that generates more kinetic energy than Djem So, doesn't have the weaknesses of Djem So, uses a more lethal weapon than a typical Jedi would use, has completely mastered the lightsaber (he knows all forms is what I would suppose that means), and is a master of Teras Kasi means that Dooku is in over his head when it comes down to a duel. The fact that he's extremely attuned to the Force and the Dark Side, being an engine of pure hate while using a form which feeds off of the user's emotions, and I would say that definitely seals the saber win for Maul and/or the team.

It's the form that relies most on finesse, percision, and grace. It's basically the most refined form- in the technical aspect, it's definetly the best form.

Again, finesse =/= most technical, or the best. It's explicitly stated that Juyo is the most difficult and demanding of all forms. And you need to be a 'high-level master of multiple forms.' And it's called the most deadly. If that doesn't qualify as 'best' to you, I'm sorry. Find me a Makashi quote that stacks up to the accolades Juyo has.

Oh, come on. 'Ultimate refinement'. Obviously, it's the product of years of training of fighting saber-to-saber; while Djem So may be its Achilles heel, when utilized by a pracitioner as masterful as Dooku, can nearly destroy that flaw- indeed, this is proven by how he survived encounters with people as powerful as Mace Windu, Sora Bulq, and Anakin (pre-RotS). All users of either Djem So or Juyo. Only Anakin- thanks to his completely unmatched force reserves- can truly dominate Dooku in such a manner.

Blah blah blah, next. (Just kidding, you know I've already addressed this and the misconception you are using regarding Anakin.)

He would have. Not only did Vader still manage to win, I doubt he could pull off such a powerful force attack in close-quarters- unlike Dooku, he isn't recorded to be capable of doing that against powerful opponents.

You can't prove he would have. Did you read or do you have the comic at all? It was not extremely close quarters. Maul gives him at least eight feet or so, taking time to gloat which is what ends up killing him. The fact is that Vader was helpless. Vader had never been beaten that badly. This takes place just after A New Hope, btw, so Galen Marek was already dead. But the novelization between Marek and Vader depict an extremely close match. Against ROTJ Luke, even that was pretty close until Luke goes 'batshit crazy' – and he still doesn't get outclassed the way Maul outclasses him. Six hits to one. Disarmed and cut open twice. Having to impale himself simply to survive. It was amazing.

And so is Maul. He beats Dooku. I believe I've shown why rather conclusively.

This is utter insanity. Maul beating Count Dooku? The mere suggestion is ludicrous - and one that I thought would never be seriously considered on these boards. Likewise, Makashi being the inferior duelling form? I thought Hell would freeze over before such a statement would be uttered.

Makashi is the "the ultimate refinement in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat.". Let's break this [rather simple] concept down, because it seems some of us are having difficulty with it.

ul·ti·mate (lt-mt)
adj.
1. Being last in a series, process, or progression.
2. Fundamental; elemental: an ultimate truth.
3.
a. Of the greatest possible size or significance; maximum.
b. Representing or exhibiting the greatest possible development or sophistication.
c. Utmost; extreme.

So let me get this straight; Makashi is of the greatest possible, or maximum, significance (when it comes to "lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat"). Likewise, it represents the 'greatest possible development' in lightsaber combat out of all the forms. And let us not forget about the adjectives 'utmost', and 'extreme' - indicating that, in a strict lightsaber duel, no other form is better.

It seems that Juyo can't compare. You can spout out your "z0mg bT jUY0 Itz teh D3adi3sT!" all you want. I'm not disputing that. But unless you can prove that the statement applies directly to lightsaber combat, then you really don't have a leg to stand on.

As for Count Dooku himself, he is in an entirely different league than Maul. Dooku is called (by narration) to be "one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history", and is stated to be "an even greater Sith".

Pretty darn impressive if you ask me. More impressive than anything Maul has to show.

Likewise, Dooku's force prowess is of the highest possible degree - second only to Sidious and Yoda; who just so happen to be the most powerful Jedi and Sith in history. Master Kenobi, in his RotS form, was utterly destroyed by Dooku's command of the force:

"He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall."

So a flick of the Count's wrist can disable Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi? But hang on, didn't Kenobi - as a disgruntled padawan - mutilate Maul and send his fragmented body down a Naboo reactor shaft? Ouch. It should also be noted than Count Dooku did while simultaneously fending off Anakin Skywalker.

Our beloved Count also annihilated Asajj Ventress - who is an extremely powerful force user in her own right - by lifting a finger:

"Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain. Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor. "

Has Darth Maul ever shown mastery or skill of such a high degree? If so, I'd love to hear it. Because so far it seems Maul will become a stuffed trophy head above Dooku's gold plated mantle. A rather ugly one at that.

Then we have Dooku's vast experience - nearly eight decades of it. While experience itself doesn't ensure ones victory; to disregard it would be ridiculous. Dooku has trained under Master Yoda and Darth Sidious - the two greatest force users of all time. He has also sparred, and defeated, the likes of Mace Windu, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, Asajj Ventress, General Grievous and Sora Bulq - and the list goes on. There's a huge pool of talent in that list - and all were beaten by the Count with relative ease (excluding Skywalker - but that's a different argument altogether).

Speaking of General Grievous, he has extensive knowledge of all seven forms of lightsaber combat. Knowledge obviously passed on to him from Count Dooku - indicating the Dark Lord's proficiency in all styles of combat. So that somewhat nullifies your statement of Juyo requiring you to be a "high-level master of multiple forms", wouldn't you think? But you seem to disregard that small detail, don't you Enyalus?

Lord Tyranus has also been described as "Dooku, consummate planner, consummate duelist." Consummate meaning perfect or to the highest degree. The we have Yoda himself who praises Dooku's skill:

"Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student. Our greatest failure."

Dooku, by Yoda's own admission, is the Temple's greatest student. Greater than Qui-Gon or Anoon; whom Maul slayed, and certainly greater than TPM Kenobi.

So there we have it. Dooku beats Maul. I believe I've shown why rather conclusively.

Originally posted by Enyalus

So he wouldn't be completely clueless when having to face Mace? You'd think he'd add in some basic instructions about it. Or how to defend against it. But no, nothing. Furthermore, sure, true Vaapad would require a connection to the Force, but it isn't a requirement for learning it – as Grievous was able to synthesize a form close enough to it
[/B]

Dookus fight with Sora Bulq showed Dooku at least has basic knowledge of Vapaad and how it works. as He knew about how it skirts the dark side and used this to turn Sora to the Dark Side. Where did Dooku learn about that from?? most likely from Mace.

T

WTF?

You are all making me cry, deep inside. Why the hell aren't any of you summoning the basic intelligence to demand that Enyalus substantiate what a 'wizard of the Force means'? Since you can't, I will:

Enyalus, substantiate what a 'wizard of the Force' means. That statement is a fine example of ambiguity. That you're trying to use it as a means of making a favorable comparison for Maul against Dooku in a Force fight is ridiculous.

Sorry, but Dooku is miles ahead of Maul in the Force. Miles. And miles. And miles. And miles. And miles. Evidence? His feats and accolades, none of which Maul share.

@ Rampant:

At the same time, Dooku's real salvation is Force use. Enyalus is right, Maul can definitely challenge and potentially defeat Dooku in a lightsaber match and there's no denying it.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Likewise, Makashi being the inferior duelling form? I thought Hell would freeze over before such a statement would be uttered.

Makashi is the "the [b]ultimate refinement in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat.". Let's break this [rather simple] concept down, because it seems some of us are having difficulty with it.

ul·ti·mate (lt-mt)
adj.
1. Being last in a series, process, or progression.
2. Fundamental; elemental: an ultimate truth.
3.
a. Of the greatest possible size or significance; maximum.
b. Representing or exhibiting the greatest possible development or sophistication.
c. Utmost; extreme.

So let me get this straight; Makashi is of the greatest possible, or maximum, significance (when it comes to "lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat"). Likewise, it represents the 'greatest possible development' in lightsaber combat out of all the forms. And let us not forget about the adjectives 'utmost', and 'extreme' - indicating that, in a strict lightsaber duel, no other form is better.[/B]

Except you don't have it straight. If the quote were "Makashi is the ultimate in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat," you'd be correct. But you seem to ignore the word 'refinement' - which 'ultimate' is referring to and describing. "Makashi is the ultimate refinement in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat" thus means that Makashi is the best and greatest possible development of elegant and finesseful (what a word) dueling. Which is completely true. If it were simply the best, there's no need to add the word 'refinement.'

Find me a quote saying it is the best form for dueling or most dangerous or something equally damning. Otherwise, you've got nothing.

@ Darth Power: I never suggested Dooku didn't have 'basic knowledge' of Vaapad or how it works. He and Mace were close friends, afterall. And both exceptional duelists. It's entirely possible that they 'talked shop' - so to speak.

You're arguing semantics here.

All the forms have obviously refined the art of lightsaber combat to a certain degree. To say otherwise would be ridiciulous. The fact that Makashi is the ultimate refinement indicates that out of all seven forms, Form II is the one which has refined the art of "lightsaber-to-lightsaber" combat to it's apex.

Pray tell how another form can then be superior in a swordfight, when out of all the forms, Makashi is the only one which has refined lightsaber combat to it's ultimate degree.

Originally posted by Gideon

@ Rampant:

At the same time, Dooku's real salvation is Force use. Enyalus is right, Maul can definitely challenge and potentially defeat Dooku in a lightsaber match and there's no denying it.

In a lightsaber only confrontation? Of course Maul would pose a challenge. But posing a challenge is a very different concept to acieving a victory.

But in an all out duel? I stand by my statement that Dooku wouldn't even need to ignite his lightsaber.

Intrestingly enough when I clicked on the link that took me to this thread what first showed up was Ox's last post, and as soon as I saw "You're arguing semantics here", I thought "He's talking to Enyalus".

😐

In sabers theres no doubt that both these 2 are ridiculously skilled and accomplished.. Maul being more the deadly warrior, the physical beast... Dooku being more the pure fencer. But both among the best Saber fighters ever. So thats up for debate.

But with the Force does Maul even equal ROTS Kenobi level??? Who Dooku disposed of with a flick of the wrist!!!

This is Kenobi who sends GG flying 50ft crashing against the wall disarming him of his remaining weapons.. Kenobi who pretty much equalled the "Chosen One" in a Force Battle. and check out the new animated series where Kenobi's sending Destroyer Droids flying with the Force(while their forcefield is up) and while evading fire from a small army of droids!! seems close to Mace's Force feats in the CW mini-series.

I've already posted half a dozen quotes regarding Maul's power with the Force, to which even Qui-Gon was impressed with. That he doesn't use it and desires a purely physical victory does not mean that somehow he's going to be Force-raped by Dooku. He dominated Darth Vader, who was capable of crushing an entire room with the Force, destroying a bridge, crushing a durasteel hut, and hurling away three large pillars...all without flicking the wrist or moving his hands at all.

As for the Count's domination of Ventress with his finger, wasn't that prior to her having any Jedi-type or Force training at all? If so, way to go, killing a Force neophyte. Also, if Ventress is such an 'extremely powerful Force user,' please feel free to list some of her feats with the Force.

As for Makashi's 'ultimate refinement in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat' line, I've already mentioned what that means: The best and greatest possible development of elegant dueling. Which as we see from the nature of Makashi, is completely true. That some choose to argue that it is superior in dueling to Juyo, which was described as being the most difficult to master, the most powerful, and the deadliest, is sad. Especially when they only have that one quote to cling to - a quote which apparently has been misunderstood on KMC for quite a while.

This seems all to be going on the assumption that Dooku will KO Ventress with the force first. He's most likely going to do maul in first being the bigger threat, in his eyes, as he did Kenobi

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
This seems all to be going on the assumption that Dooku will KO Ventress with the force first. He's most likely going to do maul in first being the bigger threat, in his eyes, as he did Kenobi

When exactly did Dooku go after Kenobi first due to him being the "bigger threat?" In AOTC Anakin went after Dooku first and was taken out first (not indefinitely) and judging by Dooku's thoughts in ROTS, Obiwan wasn't a bigger threat then Anakin in Dooku's eyes.