It's not even worth discussing this with people who believe being healthy has a price.
Everything in America can be bought or sold, everything has a price - just have enough money and you can run the country.
No, thanks. The rest of industrialized nations function a whole lot better in that department.
See Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland...
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
It's not even worth discussing this with people who believe being healthy has a price.
Everything in America can be bought or sold, everything has a price - just have enough money and you can run the country.No, thanks. The rest of industrialized nations function a whole lot better in that department.
See Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland...
There is a problem in population though. It's a lot easier to organize and pay for things when you have a lot less people to pay and organize for.
COMBINE all those countries you have listed above and you have around 1/16 of the entire US population.
The US has more illegal immigrants living in taxpayer funded PUBLIC HOUSING then Norway does a population of legal residents.😱
You can make the argument that the public health care would not cover illegal immigrants..but I think we all know that would be a lie.
I simply believe the system would be a disaster, go bankrupt and end up hurting those people who did have the ability to previously have their own quality health care.
Originally posted by KidRockEven though I have some problems with public health care, I don't think that the people who can afford private health care now will suffer much.
There is a problem in population though. It's a lot easier to organize and pay for things when you have a lot less people to pay and organize for.COMBINE all those countries you have listed above and you have around 1/16 of the entire US population.
The US has more illegal immigrants living in taxpayer funded PUBLIC HOUSING then Norway does a population of legal residents.😱
You can make the argument that the public health care would not cover illegal immigrants..but I think we all know that would be a lie.
I simply believe the system would be a disaster, go bankrupt and end up hurting those people who did have the ability to previously have their own quality health care.
Much like many others in this thread though, I feel that the standards in the US are despicable, and that people should, one way or another have access to health care.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
It's not even worth discussing this with people who believe being healthy has a price.
Everything in America can be bought or sold, everything has a price - just have enough money and you can run the country.No, thanks. The rest of industrialized nations function a whole lot better in that department.
See Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland...
It does though. That's just a fact.
You may argue that the value of health (every aspect of it) is indefinitely high, so it shouldn't be considered, but there is a price tag. Always.
Pay its people? Why not just have the government..take less from you? Oh no there I go against ranting about how taxes are bad and stuff yet going on and on about how the government should GIVE you money is good. And no I won't move to Russia, I would rather save this country before it turns into the Soviet Union.
In market economies with progressive taxation and social safety nets, wages are directly related to taxes. This means, the higher your taxes are, the higher your wages, the lower your taxes the lower your wages. Since prices are inversely related to taxes in these situations because businesses can afford to charge less because they don't have to pay for any unpaid time off, or health insurance directly, including workers' comp. So using current economies that use this system as an example, the government will take more of your wages but your purchasing power will double so in real figures, you'll be making much more money. ALL LOWERING YOUR TAXES WILL DO (AND I'M USING THE US FROM 1980 ONWARD AS AN EXAMPLE) IS STAGNATE YOUR WAGES AND LOWER YOUR PURCHASING POWER SINCE EMPLOYERS CAN AFFORD TO PAY YOU LESS AND HAVE TO PAY MORE REVENUE EVERY YEAR TO COVER THE RAPIDLY INCREASING COSTS OF BENEFITS WHICH ARE THEN PASSED ON TO CONSUMERS IN FORM OF RAPIDLY RISING PRICES THAT ARE ONLY PARTIALLY OFFSET BY THE DIVIDENDS SOME OF THOSE EMPLOYERS RECIEVE FROM INVESTING IN THOSE SAME HEALTH INSURANCE COMPANIES. Oh, and how will the country go bankrupt if more people pay taxes?
And you still haven't answered my question of how I'm supposed to take personal responsibility for repeated assaults in my youth that resulted in an inguinal hernia (preexisting condition, now fixed), or the fact that I was exposed to radiation from Chernobyl between the ages of 2 and 4 and had mild radiation poisoning and therefore was imunocompromised till I was 7 (preexisting condition), or that I'm Ashkenazi and therefore predisposed to colorectal cancers which my immediate family has died from (that is factored in as well). This means that to most insurers that I've gotten quotes from, I am uninsurable. This means that I cannot buy a personal policy in a majority of markets in the United States. Based on statistics of employer based coverage and available jobs, if I get a new job anywhere in the United States my chances of benefits being included as part of that package and those benefits being affordable when it comes to salary deductions, copays, and annual premiums, my chances of getting health care drop to less than 1 in 4. Factoring in when school begins and when benefits kick in, it's less than 1 in 8. I can't enroll in any branch of the armed services for another 9 months because of their limitations for previous surgeries if they don't discharge me immediately after basic since according to their policies, I'm not qualified to read a map and therefore even as an officer, there probably won't be any need for me. I actually heard this from a military recruiter who pretty much said that they need more JAG personnel and they need more officers, they have enough medics and snipers so their use for color blind people without engineering degrees are few since according to them, I'm also not qualified to fly a plane, diffuse an explosive, work on wiring, follow a schematic, read a coded message, or perform any number of medical/first aid procedures. It's also waaaay harder to qualify for officer training if you're color blind.
So this brings us back to the beginning since to get VA benefits you need to be in the military, they want people in Afghanistan who can read coded maps and you need a law degree to be a JAG officer.
This means that I would need a far higher income in order to afford to pay out of pocket or to get some measly, crappy insurance that I have been offered. Considering how much I work already and the jobs available as covered, my next options in taking personal responsibility would be as follows-
-investing at least $200 into my podcast, putting it up on itunes, and charging at least $5 a month for people to listen to it which would significantly decrease our current audience and not really attract anyone new. Plus my cohost doesn't want to do this.
-win the lottery
-pawn or sell on ebay nearly everything of value I own. This would bring in no more than $7,000, trust me, I've tried to sell almost everything at one point or another.
-Start an illegal business such as selling drugs or extorting my neighbors in my apartment complex for protection money. I have some hot friends but i'm not willing to pimp them out and they have too much self respect.
-Commit overt criminal acts.
-Stop eating, cut off all utilities, cable, and internet-something my roommate objects to.
-Walk to work to save on gas: Not far but practical. This, like the latter (considering that we have basic cable, use CFL's and water efficient shower heads) means that I personally would save about $140 a month at maximum I spend around $100 a month on food which is not extravagant based on local food prices, cable is around $35, and our gas, heat, and water or so efficient that my half of the utilities is typically right around $12 a month.
So, tell me how I should take personal responsibility using me as an actual example of the way that some people live. No made ups statistics or generalizations pulled off a website, this here's real life.
Originally posted by KidRock
There is a problem in population though. It's a lot easier to organize and pay for things when you have a lot less people to pay and organize for.COMBINE all those countries you have listed above and you have around 1/16 of the entire US population.
The US has more illegal immigrants living in taxpayer funded PUBLIC HOUSING then Norway does a population of legal residents.😱
You can make the argument that the public health care would not cover illegal immigrants..but I think we all know that would be a lie.
I simply believe the system would be a disaster, go bankrupt and end up hurting those people who did have the ability to previously have their own quality health care.
How is it going to bankrupt the country if you pay more taxes?
America already spends 40% MORE on health care than any other industralized country with PUBLIC healthcare.
State studies by Massachusetts and Connecticut have shown that single payer universal health care would save 1 to 2 Billion dollars per year from the total medical expenses in those states despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefits.
Mostly because America spends from 50% to 100% MORE money on administration of private health care every year than other countries with universal.
(and this has nothing to do with population, the ratios have been calculated)
The whole point about universal health care not working would hold some weight if it wasn't functioning well everywhere else.
The United States ranks between 50th and 100th in the world in immunizations (depending on the immunization). Overall US is 67th, right behind Botswana. FFS, Botswana has a better immunization than United States.
And the burden on the health is pure myth. If your doctor is free, you will have more visits to doctor, and therefore more likely to prevent all kinds of nasty diseases and such.
If you have to pay for your doctor, you're obviously going to wait till something really goes wrong to go see him.
If you have to pay for your doctor, you're obviously going to wait till something really goes wrong to go see him.
No, I wait for my NEXT appointment. If something is seriously wrong we go to the emergency room. Like common sense dictates...and most hospitals in the US cannot deny you emergency room services. There are plans for paying later.
Now, on a more lighter note....
Why would we want free health care in America? With all the FAT PORKERS stuffing their mouths at Mc Donalds. Careless of their health or the weight or whether they could die....will I have to pay for THEIR Medical costs? Because all that FAT down the road is going to get them Diabetes or Heart Disease, Kidney infections...etc....HELL FRIGGIN NO! Yup, pull your own weight. What? did you people forgot we're the FATTEST country in the world?
What we need are nutrional programs. Eat right and stop been fat.
(Oops...silly me...I said lighter earlier...lol)
Originally posted by WhoopeeDee
No, I wait for my NEXT appointment. If something is seriously wrong we go to the emergency room. Like common sense dictates...and most hospitals in the US cannot deny you emergency room services. There are plans for paying later.Now, on a more lighter note....
Why would we want free health care in America? With all the FAT PORKERS stuffing their mouths at Mc Donalds. Careless of their health or the weight or whether they could die....will I have to pay for THEIR Medical costs? Because all that FAT down the road is going to get them Diabetes or Heart Disease, Kidney infections...etc....HELL FRIGGIN NO! Yup, pull your own weight. What? did you people forgot we're the FATTEST country in the world?
What we need are nutrional programs. Eat right and stop been fat.
(Oops...silly me...I said lighter earlier...lol)
Actually, Australia and Mexico are fatter nation than USA, these days.
And if something is wrong with you BETWEEN your appointments, if you have to pay to irregularly see your doctor, you're not going to want to. You just confirmed you'll wait for your next appointment by which time it could be a matter 'late stages' and 'early stages' of any disease and or problem.
I highly doubt that you see a doctor once a moth by routine, so sorting out yourself before routine check up is highly unlikely.
And seriously, if your condition puts you in A&E, then I don't think anything will help you then.
Originally posted by KidRock
There is a problem in population though. It's a lot easier to organize and pay for things when you have a lot less people to pay and organize for.COMBINE all those countries you have listed above and you have around 1/16 of the entire US population.
The US has more illegal immigrants living in taxpayer funded PUBLIC HOUSING then Norway does a population of legal residents.😱
You can make the argument that the public health care would not cover illegal immigrants..but I think we all know that would be a lie.
I simply believe the system would be a disaster, go bankrupt and end up hurting those people who did have the ability to previously have their own quality health care.
Not true...Economies of scale apply...The larger something becomes...The cheaper per person it becomes.
Easy solution to the concern that non US citizens would benefit from a US citizen funded healthcare system...Proof of citizenship (along with not incorporating the ridiculous law that the UK has of not being allowed to ask for proof of citizenship at the point of treatment due to discrimination laws)
Originally posted by jaden101
Not true...Economies of scale apply...The larger something becomes...The cheaper per person it becomes.Easy solution to the concern that non US citizens would benefit from a US citizen funded healthcare system...Proof of citizenship (along with not incorporating the ridiculous law that the UK has of not being allowed to ask for proof of citizenship at the point of treatment due to discrimination laws)
That would be true..if people that were taking from the system were actually putting something back into it, but they arent.
And no, that is not an easy solution. I have yet to hear a single Democrat pushing this crap to even address this issue. And they never will. Illegal immigrants right now shouldn't be benefiting from social programs when they don't put any money back into the system, but like I said above we have over 7 million of them living in section 8 public housing. It must be nice living in a dream world though.
KidRock, i'd like to fire off two quick questions.
1. Do you think insurance agencies should be able to refuse you for pre-existing conditions? If you do then the excuse of "You have to stand on your own two feat" can't be used as you could not get healthcare regardless of how hard you worked.
2. Bottom tier jobs have to exist in the service sector for american society to function, the minimum wage jobs and the like. Since these jobs HAVE to exist, if everyone took your advice and got jobs that provided healthcare america would not function. What is your opinion on jobs that can't provide healthcare but nonetheless are necessary to exist?
Which isn't applicable anyway.
1. Illegal immigrants pay taxes
2. the cost of insurance has nothing to do with illegal immigration since premiums have nothing to do with the overall cost of healthcare, but by how the company stocks do, your general health, and how much coke and how many whores the executives want to buy that month
Don't they work under the table or something?
I'm wondering how it works in USA - Can you fake national insurance numbers? Can you get them without actually proving you're a citizen?
Not sure how it works in Canada either yet - although i have heard few people who are actually Canadians and who are working under the table, so tax evasion is not just illegal immigrant thing.
In UK, it is difficult to get around the NIN (but not impossible of course), so how it works for some people is that someone 'leases' you their national insurance to work off - and you pay them a fee of your wage every month. Sometimes a rather generous one.
But I guess someone STILL pays taxes...
Originally posted by Darth Jello
typically, you buy a stolen social security number and use it and a forged identity in order to pay taxes in order to not attract the ire of the IRS which has historically been one of the most efficient law enforcement agencies in the US.
I see. So it is in their interest to be paying some kind of taxes...interesting.
Perhaps few places should get tips from IRS on their revenue policies.