NJO Luke vs RoT Bane

Nai
Urm. No.

Firstly: The different uses of dovin basals are nigh irrelevant for the general direction of my comment. You can go and do the calculations for power required to redirect and absorb particle beams (like turbolaser shots), propel world-ships or generate interdiction fields that replicate the mass of a small planet or even a black hole.

Nai
In any case, the amount of energy generated eclipses the conventional showings of force users in SW fiction.

Nai
So simply imagine that Luke could exert more actual energy than a sun. One could also imagine that Luke could force push / pull a moon out of orbit, if that can be better imagined. Is that enough to qualify as "godlike"?

Nai
Luke took on a group of dovin basals who were manipulating a singularity powerful enough to nullify proton torpedos and concussion missles (note: warheads with the power-output exceeding the "gigatonnage range" of turbolasers).

Nai
A power that Luke realized as "nothing" compared to the amount of force energy he was capable of wielding.

Nai
Does that sound any less impressive, when you think about it?

😐

One thing about Black Holes:
While it is true that we can't say how large the singularities being created were, we do know that:

They pulled Photon torpedoes drastically off target in very short situations. They had THAT much gravitational pull.

You know something that CAN'T do that? The gravitational pull of the earth. Until a torpedoe (or in our case, we would be considering missiles) runs out of fuel, it doesn't crash to earth.

The singularity had to therefore, have enough gravitational force to overcome the propulsion system of the torpedoes.

Just a quick idea to throw out there. Didn't Raynar Thul redirect turbolaser bolts at one point? I think it was in the second DN book. I'm not sure if I'm remembering that correctly though. If true, something like that would be more on the level of the dovin basal feat, and thus add some substantiation to it, as we would then have a demonstration of that kind of power to go off of. Like I said though, I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly. I'll see if I can find it after work tonight.

Might I add; this thread is pretty legit. I don't think we've had as good a debate in months.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Just a quick idea to throw out there. Didn't Raynar Thul redirect turbolaser bolts at one point? I think it was in the second DN book. I'm not sure if I'm remembering that correctly though. If true, something like that would be more on the level of the dovin basal feat, and thus add some substantiation to it, as we would then have a demonstration of that kind of power to go off of. Like I said though, I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly. I'll see if I can find it after work tonight.

Might I add; this thread is pretty legit. I don't think we've had as good a debate in months.

I believe Thul used the same technique that Vader, Jace, and Luke (and possibly Revan) have been known to do? Blocking them with his hands somehow?

I could be wrong.

And i agree on the discussion. Definitly the most civil.

Originally posted by Eminence
[B]The only use of DB-generated voids anyone here should consider doing calculations for is the highlighted one. Luke did not overpower dovin basals capable of propelling world-ships or generating interdiction fields that replicate the mass of small planet. Therefore such examples are simply not relevant, which is what Nemesis and I are trying to make clear to people reading this.

Wrong.

The feat, dear Faunus, doesn't lie within the use of the black hole but in generating and controlling that kind of gravitational field. And see. The mention 1 TeV (similar to the kinetic energy generated by a moving mosquito) would - theoretically - be enough to generate a black hole with the size of an atom. The energy bound in the mass of the moon would be just enough to create a black hole with an diameter of 0,1 milimetres. And we're dealing with gravitational anomalies with a diametre of several dozen centimeters or perhabs several meters in "Onslaught" that do behave like a black hole.

Hence why I said that the different uses are of nearly no importance. It would be easier to come up with the energy to pull a moon out of orbit than with energy required to generate and control a black hole (or similar gravitational phenomenon).

Do the dovin basals nullify the explosions themselves, or incapacitate the missiles before they can make contact? I believe Onslaught has the former occurring at once in this same sequence, so if you could check this for me I can come to a final conclusion.

It's both happening throughout "Onslaught". First they suck the torpedos in and then contain the explosion, then the Jedi attempt to let the torpedos detonate right in front of the "black holes" and again the resulting energy is absorbed. But that's not the point here since whatever energy Luke was working against has to be greater than the energy used to archive those feats (which is rediculously high on it's own).

Less impressive than pulling a moon out of orbit or sustaining the generation of more power than the sun?

In terms of possible uses for force energy, Faunus? If we use the energy needed to replicate the actions of the black holes, instead of smashing moons out of orbit, Luke could "just" incinerate the surface of entire planets, force push continents around, toss asteroids around or turn matter into raw energy. Wouldn't that still qualify as "godlike"?

Just to reiterate my general stance, I take issue with some of these feats not because of their outlandish and ridiculous nature (Nihilus's Force drain, Naga Sadow's ability to manipulate interstellar disasters, and most of Palpatine's upper level techniques are in the same order of magnitude of stupidity), but because Luke has not consistently demonstrated this level of aptitude.

This isn't a situation where we ask why doesn't Character A perform Random Ass Feat #45 against Character B? It's a situation where we consider the context of the situation and ask why doesn't Character A unleash Completely Standard (But Very Enhanced) Power against Character B?

Off the top of my head, using those three other examples, we find reasons why the characters did not unleash their techniques all the time. Nihilus's Force drain was countered by the Exile's unique Force signature, Sadow required a meditation sphere to destroy stars, and Palpatine's Force Storms, in particular, is not a combat applicable technique.

But what about Luke? TJ has offered some paltry examples to support that this is a fairly consistent and entirely canon demonstration of Luke's abilities, but I don't buy it. The technique applied in both his manipulation of the dovin basal and resisting UnuThul's attacks was simple telekinesis. Enhanced telekinesis to be sure, but apparently not an esoteric technique.

So why is telekinesis of this order of magnitude applied elsewhere? Where is this telekinesis against Shimrra and his army in the Unifying Force? I would argue that a battlemeld is far less effective and thus far less dangerous. Where is this telekinesis against Lumiya during all their encounters in Legacy of the Force? In all three encounters, he should have been able to subdue her with ease. Where is this telekinesis against Caedus in their duel to the death? Luke should have been able to end the war right then and there. Where is this telekinesis against the Hidden One? Against the Sith strike team in Abyss? Against the Sith Lord Galaan in Backlash?

TJ nor anyone else has been able to provide a sufficient explanation for this inconsistency. TJ argues that, in Backlash, Luke was able to use telekinesis to resist strong winds on Dathomir. This is not even close to the same order of magnitude of rooting himself in the Force so that the galaxy's supermassive black hole could not move him -- if that is to be taken literally. Indeed, even against the Hidden One, Luke struggled against his enemy's telekinetic storm, though he eventually prevailed.

To me, the answer is simple: if these feats are canon (which is dubious), then they must clearly be limited in some fashion. Perhaps Luke requires time to prepare, time that is not available during combat. Or perhaps, as I suggest, they aren't canon at all.

For what it's worth, though, I'd also contend that this applies to equally bullshit moments such as Luke and Mara being unable to defeat a droideka in Survivor's Quest.

Originally posted by truejedi
I believe Thul used the same technique that Vader, Jace, and Luke (and possibly Revan) have been known to do? Blocking them with his hands somehow?

I could be wrong.

And i agree on the discussion. Definitly the most civil.

He was inside his flagship and redirecting shots away from his ship. Totally different ability.

Originally posted by Gideon
Just to reiterate my general stance, I take issue with some of these feats not because of their outlandish and ridiculous nature (Nihilus's Force drain, Naga Sadow's ability to manipulate interstellar disasters, and most of Palpatine's upper level techniques are in the same order of magnitude of stupidity), but because Luke has not consistently demonstrated this level of aptitude.

Erm. Who of the listed characters has shown a "consistent" level of aptitude? I mean, hey: Sadow could manipulate stars (note: he didn't need any "help" for that - the weapon systems of his ships were offline when he did), yet seems to be limited to throwing bricks in actual combat. Sidious can tear "the fabric of space-time itself" but is unable to perform any noticeable force feat in order to overwhelm a - relatively - untrained and inexperienced Luke Skywalker in DE.

This isn't a situation where we ask why doesn't Character A perform Random Ass Feat #45 against Character B? It's a situation where we consider the context of the situation and ask why doesn't Character A unleash Completely Standard (But Very Enhanced) Power against Character B?
[...]

The simple answer to this is: PIS.
If Luke could solve any situation with mind-bending execution of relative ordinary force abilities (e.g. Telekinesis), SW novels featuring Luke would be over in the same instance Luke get's involved in any kind of "tricky" situation. "Remember the Yuuzhan Vong fleet attacking? Was rather cool how I force pushed them back into their own Galaxy, huh?"

If you want an in universe explanation, then you could look at the way Luke uses the force. In the very situation I have quoted from "Onslaught", Luke perceives his actual task as a relatively easy one. He also executes it without any noticeable problems appearing - but when he's done, he's barely able to speak all over a sudden, because of the exertion.

Keep that example in mind and have a look at the RotS novel, specifically the scene in which Obi-Wan fights Grievous and his droids after hunting down the general on his own. From Obi-Wan's perception, the force is acting through him rather than be controlled by him. This appears to be the natural Jedi view, as Qui-Gon in TPM makes a similar comment about "listening to the midi-chlorians" as a "voice of the force" (something of that sort).

Now combine these two things. If the Force is some kind of mythological energy field that acts like and entity (heavily suggested due to "communication" via midi-chlorians and "the will of the force"😉, then it could - at least partitionally - influence the amount of energy that can be utilized by a force user. Or, rather than that, equip a force user with energy normaly beyond his grasp.

This would explain, why Luke - in some situations - is able to perform that seemingly impossible tasks (hell...Jacen becoming an Avatar of the Force in the NJO series also wasn't a piece of cake), while he's limited to more conventional (and less impressive) abilties in other situations.

Or, maybe, you are underrating some of Luke's opponents and there abilities or you aren't taking the circumstances of certain confrontations into consideration.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Erm. Who of the listed characters has shown a "consistent" level of aptitude? I mean, hey: Sadow could manipulate stars (note: he didn't need any "help" for that - the weapon systems of his ships were offline when he did), yet seems to be limited to throwing bricks in actual combat. Sidious can tear "the fabric of space-time itself" but is unable to perform any noticeable force feat in order to overwhelm a - relatively - untrained and inexperienced Luke Skywalker in DE.

The simple answer to this is: PIS.
If Luke could solve any situation with mind-bending execution of relative ordinary force abilities (e.g. Telekinesis), SW novels featuring Luke would be over in the same instance Luke get's involved in any kind of "tricky" situation. "Remember the Yuuzhan Vong fleet attacking? Was rather cool how I force pushed them back into their own Galaxy, huh?"

If you want an in universe explanation, then you could look at the way Luke uses the force. In the very situation I have quoted from "Onslaught", Luke perceives his actual task as a relatively easy one. He also executes it without any noticeable problems appearing - but when he's done, he's barely able to speak all over a sudden, because of the exertion.

Keep that example in mind and have a look at the RotS novel, specifically the scene in which Obi-Wan fights Grievous and his droids after hunting down the general on his own. From Obi-Wan's perception, the force is acting through him rather than be controlled by him. This appears to be the natural Jedi view, as Qui-Gon in TPM makes a similar comment about "listening to the midi-chlorians" as a "voice of the force" (something of that sort).

Now combine these two things. If the Force is some kind of mythological energy field that acts like and entity (heavily suggested due to "communication" via midi-chlorians and "the will of the force"😉, then it could - at least partitionally - influence the amount of energy that can be utilized by a force user. Or, rather than that, equip a force user with energy normaly beyond his grasp.

This would explain, why Luke - in some situations - is able to perform that seemingly impossible tasks (hell...Jacen becoming an Avatar of the Force in the NJO series also wasn't a piece of cake), while he's limited to more conventional (and less impressive) abilties in other situations.

Or, maybe, you are underrating some of Luke's opponents and there abilities or you aren't taking the circumstances of certain confrontations into consideration.

I like this. Very much.

Great, another person that agrees with the PIS/CIS scenario.

Well DS, i can see it as PIS as to why he DIDN'T do the things he can clearly do. (Which is what Borborad is talking about i think.)

PIS to explain things that DO happen, i have some trouble with.

an example of PIS/CIS for things that do happen would be mara jade getting killed after hesitating to finish off caedus because he projected an image of her son on his face or some shiz.

or, anakin losing to obi-wan in RotS.

edit- plot induced stupidty is when a character does not act within the height of their abilities or whatever reason (arrogance, pity, stupidity etc)

Originally posted by truejedi
Well DS, i can see it as PIS as to why he DIDN'T do the things he can clearly do. (Which is what Borborad is talking about i think.)

PIS to explain things that DO happen, i have some trouble with.

I agree. The LOTF series saw the authors trying to downplay Luke's powers, while NJO made him seem invincible. I wish they were more consistent.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
an example of PIS/CIS for things that do happen would be mara jade getting killed after hesitating to finish off caedus because he projected an image of her son on his face or some shiz.

or, anakin losing to obi-wan in RotS.

edit- plot induced stupidty is when a character does not act within the height of their abilities or whatever reason (arrogance, pity, stupidity etc)

I actually disagree on both of your examples. : ) Kenobi beat Anakin because he was his teacher, and knew him better than anyone else, so that isn't PIS, (since it can be explained)

The death of Mara Jade is a different case altogether, as i've posted previously, Caedus stuck that needle into Mara Jade with a THIRD HAND. (read the text, keep track of where his hands are, and what they are doing, and the third time it says, "with his other hand he reached for..." you will see what i'm talking about.

The Mara Jade situation was just a case of poor editing.

pis does not mean something that can not be explained. . .

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotInducedStupidity

PIS does mean something would be unlikely though: And according to ROTS, they were evenly matched. Evenly matched opponents can hardly be considered PIS when somebody wins.

Address the Mara Jade thing. It is one of the most sensational failures in the entire mythos.

Nai
Wrong.

The feat, dear Faunus, doesn't lie within the use of the black hole but in generating and controlling that kind of gravitational field.

Eminence
If anyone here understands how dovin basals actually work, feel free to step in. I'm assuming that the gravitational field created by the dovin basal at a point in local space is tethered to it by [an]other field(s?) of equal or greater strength, which is also the only way I can immediately rationalize your idea of Luke "overriding" the void's pull; it'd be via proxy, as he's overriding a equal or greater force relative to that of the void being manipulated.

Nai
And see. The mention 1 TeV (similar to the kinetic energy generated by a moving mosquito) would - theoretically - be enough to generate a black hole with the size of an atom. The energy bound in the mass of the moon would be just enough to create a black hole with an diameter of 0,1 milimetres. And we're dealing with gravitational anomalies with a diametre of several dozen centimeters or perhabs several meters in "Onslaught" that do behave like a black hole.

Hence why I said that the different uses are of nearly no importance. It would be easier to come up with the energy to pull a moon out of orbit than with energy required to generate and control a black hole (or similar gravitational phenomenon).

Nai
It's both happening throughout "Onslaught". First they suck the torpedos in and then contain the explosion, then the Jedi attempt to let the torpedos detonate right in front of the "black holes" and again the resulting energy is absorbed. But that's not the point here since whatever energy Luke was working against has to be greater than the energy used to archive those feats (which is rediculously high on it's own).

Nai
In terms of possible uses for force energy, Faunus? If we use the energy needed to replicate the actions of the black holes, instead of smashing moons out of orbit, Luke could "just" incinerate the surface of entire planets, force push continents around, toss asteroids around or turn matter into raw energy. Wouldn't that still qualify as "godlike"?

But I'll be back. 😐

Gideon
Or perhaps, as I suggest, they aren't canon at all.

Also, why is nobody discussing the potential use of the third-person limited perspective in Swarm War? If anyone with access to an electronic copy can run a check on the book, and it turns out to be written in such a manner - which, as far as I can remember seems consistent with my recollection of the rest of the SW novels I've read - it'd lay a significant part of this debate to rest. Luke privately embellishing the [still extraordinary] feat would be something we've seen from many characters in many settings; it'd be perfectly reasonable.

By the way:

Gideon
Where is this telekinesis against Caedus in their duel to the death? Luke should have been able to end the war right then and there.

Jacen killed Mara Jade with a third hand.

Eminence
[QUOTE]Gideon
Or perhaps, as I suggest, they aren't canon at all.

I'm not seeing how inconsistency renders the character's high [or low] showings non-canon.[/QUOTE]

Because there is simply no possible way to reconcile the extraordinarily high or low showings with the greater continuity. In Dark Empire, Skywalker demonstrates the ability to obliterate a contingent of droids and topple AT-ATs with telekinesis alone, but we are somehow supposed to believe that, even with the assistance of the ridiculously skilled Mara Jade, he is supposed to struggle with a slightly enhanced droideka?

Likewise, are we to believe that the same Skywalker -- who struggles with the likes of Lumiya, Caedus, the Hidden One, the Sith strike team, and random Sith Sabre Galaan -- is capable of using telekinesis to overpower black holes and to tether himself to the ground in a state that would enable him to resist the inexorable command of the galaxy's central black hole?

The only explanation that can be provided by anyone is PIS. And then the necessary follow up question is "what is PIS and what is not?"

And the real answer to that question is that everyone will use PIS to their advantage in an argument.

And then those same people who use PIS here will b1tch about it elsewhere.

Edit: I've pretty much abandoned that as an excuse for anything. I think PIS cannot be accurately used to describe Skywalker's moments of stupidity or inadequacy anymore than the term can excuse his outlandish, inconsistent feats. A more hollistic representation should be used. If someone, like Nai has attempted to do, can explain it rationally instead of saying "LAWLZ PIS IT STAAAANDS!" I'd happily discuss it.

Eminence
[QUOTE]Gideon
Where is this telekinesis against Caedus in their duel to the death? Luke should have been able to end the war right then and there.

This issue, at least, can easily be attributed to PIS. Luke has already established that he can dominate Caedus with telekinesis alone.[/QUOTE]

This isn't quite the point. That Skywalker is a more powerful Force-user or telekinetic than Caedus isn't the point. As far as this particular instance is concerned, Inferno outright suggested that had Skywalker attacked a fully prepared Caedus, the result might have been different. So I can accept Skywalker as depicted during the Legacy of the Force/the Fate of the Jedi (the one who struggles against Lumiya and other random Force-users) not unleashing telekinesis against Caedus in their duel; Caedus would be far more likely to be prepared for such an assault and could perhaps resist or retaliate.

But that simply does not excuse the Luke Skywalker that Truejedi is offering: the one who can resist black holes and manipulate dovin basals anytime, anywhere, anyplace. That Luke Skywalker should be able to WTFpwnANNIHILATE anyone in his path.

But he doesn't.

Using Palpatine's Force Storms as rationale that he should be able to defeat Luke Skywalker isn't adequate. The Force Storm is a specific technique with a specific result; Palpatine doesn't use telekinesis or Sith lightning to rip apart the space/time continuum nor does he create the hyperspace wormholes through this; he summons them with mere thought or inclination. It's not an all-applicable power; it performs a specific function and, due to its destructive nature and scope, Palpatine cannot conceivably use it in a duel to the death.

Contrast this with what Skywalker uses to manipulate dovin basals and tether himself to the ground: telekinesis. That is a pretty much universal power that can be wielded with presumably limitless magnitude in a combat scenario.

The fact of the matter is that there are far more examples of Skywalker's "limited" telekinesis than unlimited; the more recent, modern depictions show him as a powerful, skilled duelist who is not head-and-shoulders above his peers.

Eminence
Also, why is nobody discussing the potential use of the third-person limited perspective in Swarm War? If anyone with access to an electronic copy can run a check on the book, and it turns out to be written in such a manner - which, as far as I can remember seems consistent with my recollection of the rest of the SW novels I've read - it'd lay a significant part of this debate to rest. Luke privately embellishing the [still extraordinary] feat would be something we've seen from many characters in many settings; it'd be perfectly reasonable.

Possible. But Glentract, Autokrat, and I have all suggested hyperbole, exaggeration, and otherwise before. So this isn't an entirely new theory.