Originally posted by red sabre
show me a proof they killed thousands upon thousands man, its only your speculation based on your biased opinion, probably they owned couple hundreds but lets not get crazy with the numbers.how did they get down to 20? you wana tell me 278 died in the battles where they had the advantage all along? really? did the movie state they were down to 20? did you just count?
the immortals number is 10,000? where? did they kill all the immortals? i dont recall them killing the entire immortals army... where do you get those numbers from? i dont recall numbers being stated , most of those numbers are just made by you and make it sound kinda stupid.
as i said already the spartans got slaughtered once the battle was a real battle and not the way the planed it to be in the neckbottle position which they are covering each other with shields and spears, once their tactic is broken they get slaughtered.
Myrmidons conquered the beach in a real fight vs the trojans who are much more trained than the barbaric persians, only unit that is skilled in the persian army are the immortals and we saw how they slaughtered spartans even while in neckbottle situation.
Myrmidons are more impressive than spartans.
Just "a couple hundred"? 😂 And you called me bias. Anyhow. Their first fight after the camera pans out we see a 'couple hundred' dead Persians on the floor in the pass; this doesn't count the ones they later 'gave a drink' too in that same battle. That was just one battle. We later see the massive wall they build with the dead and it's in the several hundreds.
Cos they were losing men here and there along the way, as we see Spartans fall. Granted, none the first day. I said around 20, that was going from memory. Upon closer inspection, there's about 40ish. Battle did get "real" then, considering the odds against them.
I'm thinking I got the "10,000" number from the end in the voice over. The Immortals were several hundred going from the formations we got to glimpse. They also weren't all killed. My error there.
"Slaughtered once the battle was real", where do you get this nonsense? The faced larger numbers and more diverse opponents, far more impressive than the beach at Troy. Which Achilles was really the only one who stood out. You're forgetting that the Myrmidon's employed shield-wall tactics themselves and ignoring that there were several scenes of the Spartans fighting out of formation.
Where do you get "the Trojans were better trained" from? Cos the Immortals specifically were named as "elite". Then there was enough archers to darken the sky, alchemist types throwing explosives, war rhino, a few gigantic war elephants, some Zulu-looking fools and ogre-man.
Originally posted by Robtard
Just "a couple hundred"? 😂 And you called me bias. Anyhow. Their first fight after the camera pans out we see a 'couple hundred' dead Persians on the floor in the pass; this doesn't count the ones they later 'gave a drink' too in that same battle. That was just one battle. We later see the massive wall they build with the dead and it's in the several hundreds.Cos they were losing men here and there along the way, as we see Spartans fall. Granted, none the first day. I said around 20, that was going from memory. Upon closer inspection, there's about 40ish. Battle did get "real" then, considering the odds against them.
I'm thinking I got the "10,000" number from the end in the voice over. The Immortals were several hundred going from the formations we got to glimpse. They also weren't all killed. My error there.
"Slaughtered once the battle was real", where do you get this nonsense? The faced larger numbers and more diverse opponents, far more impressive than the beach at Troy. Which Achilles was really the only one who stood out. You're forgetting that the Myrmidon's employed shield-wall tactics themselves and ignoring that there were several scenes of the Spartans fighting out of formation.
Where do you get "the Trojans were better trained" from? Cos the Immortals specifically were named as "elite". Then there was enough archers to darken the sky, alchemist types throwing explosives, war rhino, a few gigantic war elephants, some Zulu-looking fools and ogre-man.
in the first scan it doesnt look like couple hundred it looks like 20 - 30 man, as i pointed out already your biased glasses makes you see things that arent there and make up redicilous numbers as if you know nothing about the value of those numbers.
if we adress the body wall then in the later scenes we see that the wall from behind isnt wider , that wall by the way it looks has probably 150-200 man, again not bringing us any close to thousands on top of thousands in numbers.
then the movie leaves us with errors because at non of the point we saw them losing so many man, i guess that happened when the persian army discovered the path behind them and they basically had a battle off screen where they lost so many man, and they switched to the last stand, again in this last stand even thought they did not have all the 300 man they still didnt do very good at all considering the fact they were slaughtered quickly by archers, at this point even if they were more it wouldnt help them because as fast as those last 40 - 50 fell same would all 300 with slightly more battle.
so basically you made up the number 10,000 which doesnt even look that way, second of all they didnt even slaughter all the immortals unit , when immortals saw they are having losts they didnt continue to attack with all their man, thats why at the end you see more of them, if it would be stated that they killed all immortals then we could use some point, however again the whole unit of the immortals didnt look like 10,000 , it looks far far less.
yes they did face many man however in their terms in a neckbottle situation while being all gathered around next to each other and protecting with shields and spears, the numbers doesnt add too much because its the same as i will be in a room with 10 friends and we will fight 100 people but each time only 5 - 10 people would be able to enter and fight us, in the neckbottle shore the numbers didnt count because the persian army could not attack them with big numbers at the same time, only wave after wave after wave, once they did get to surround them it was over.
also note that even in their advantage situation the immortals managed to slaughter spartans as well.
you are wrong, at the beach battle you see while achilles is fighting his Myrmidons following him and slaughtering all the trojan sodiers around, achilles defeated 30 man in the extended version, his Myrmidons slaughtered all the rest , lets not forget there were not many Myrmidons with him to begin with, as the boats came to shore good amount was killed by archers because while getting down to the beach they were defenseless until just like the spartans they gathered around and formed a tactic to defend themselves.
spartans were fighting out of formation at some points however it was a 2D fight where enemies could only attack them from the front where spartans had huge advantage due to their spears, the fight was at their terms and gave spartans every advantage they needed.
trojans are trained since birth as in most of greece, the trojan army is a very skilled army, persians are barbarics their only trained unit is the immortals unit that was able to slaughter spartans with all the advantages the spartans had.
all those arrows didnt count as anything because the spartans were gathered around and needed just to raise their shields up and have a protecting ceiling from the arrows.
a rhino? a spear throw to the eye took him down not much of a challenge. how is it indication to skills from the persian army?
couple elephants that were intimidated by the spears and fell off the cliffs? how is that indication to skills of persian army?
that slow ogre guy who pinned leonidas to the ground? what did he present aside of strength and size? if anything he was slow and should be easily destroyed.
i am not taking credit from the spartans they did great and are great warriors, however the fights they won were tailor made for them to suit their tactics and their spears, once that tactic was gone they were gone as well.
Listen, I was wrong with the Immortals, i got the "10,000 strong" quote misplaced; I admitted it and manned up, you recapping it as if I didn't is funny though.
What you're doing is ridiculous though, there isn't "20-30" dead men on the floor and that wall is far more than 200. All you have is downplay tactics and you accuse me of being biased.
No, not wrong. They used shield-wall tactics to protect themselves from arrows, the same thing you blew off the Spartans for, except the Spartans faced far more arrows and faced far greater numbers. You're uttelry wanking the beach scene. It was little more than a "look how epic and gorgeous" Achilles is and it focused on him. The Myrmidons (baring Achilles) were no where as impressive as the various Spartans scenes.
I've done this before in this thread, see no point in doing it again with someone who demands support; only to ignore screen caps.
Originally posted by Robtard
Listen, I was wrong with the Immortals, I admitted it and manned up, you recapping it as if I didn't is funny though.What you're doing is ridiculous though, there isn't "20-30" dead men on the floor and that wall is far more than 200. All you have is downplay tactics and you accuse me of being biased.
I've done this before in this thread, see no point in doing it again with someone who demands support; only to ignore screen caps.
i just repeated that point to show the flaw.
no what i am doing is the same thing you are doing, i throw numbers made purely on speculations just as you do, to mee it looks like 20-30, 100-200, to you it somehow seems more, however you cant use what you think or speculate as a fact, therefor dont come in and say spartans slaughtered thousands on top of thousands persians with no back up to that at all because it looks ridiculous.
of course i demand support to your claim what did you think? you cant come up throw ridiculous numbers and then wonder why do people ask support to that claim.
🙂 How brave of you.
In that still, easily 20-25 men could stand side by side, that's no counting the depth. So my estimate is far less ridiculous and more plausible than your "20-30".
Says the guy not posting support for his claims. Clever.
Barring Achilles running around and playing Mr. Stabby-death-machine, the Myrmidons weren't anything too special: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpLtXIlkyYA
Originally posted by Robtard
🙂 How brave of you.In that still, easily 20-25 men could stand side by side, that's no counting the depth. So my estimate is far less ridiculous and more plausible than your "20-30".
Says the guy not posting support for his claims. Clever.
Barring Achilles running around and playing Mr. Stabby-death-machine, the Myrmidons weren't anything too special: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpLtXIlkyYA
at this point you are just being strawman and thats boring me, the Myrmidons alongside achilles defeated all the trojans on the beach and there were plenty of those and even a second unit joined the trojans to assist but it was no good.
at this point you see you are wrong but not man enough to even admit it.
Originally posted by red sabre
at this point you are just being strawman and thats boring me, the Myrmidons alongside achilles defeated all the trojans on the beach and there were plenty of those and even a second unit joined the trojans to assist but it was no good.
at this point you see you are wrong but not man enough to even admit it.
Quoting you isn't using a strawman argument. Which is what I assumed you meant 🙂
"All the tojans on the beach"(not that they were all killed), that would be far less than the thousands that attacked the Spartans. Also, like the Persians, the Trojans started to retreat.
Ah, I see why you're here now 🙂 Says the guy ignoring visual evidence and using "no, wrong!" tactics without supporting.
The films don't support you, enjoy:
Originally posted by Robtard
Quoting you isn't strawmanning. 🙂"All the tojans on the beach"(not that they were all killed), that would be far less than the thousands that attacked the Spartans. Also, like the Persians, the Trojans started to retreat.
Ah, I see why you're here now. 🙂 Says the guy ignoring visual evidence and using "no, wrong!" tactics without supporting.
The films don't support you, enjoy:
you are strawmaning because you got caught for making numbers out of your a$$ and instead of admiting you make strange excuses.
again you are with this thousands bullcrap? until you show me any evidance the spartans killed thousands of persians your point is invalid.
i watched the clip and counted, first of all before achilles reach the beach with his Myrmidons we see how large the trojan army is the one that is waiting for them, we see dozens of archers, and we see a lot of horseman riding towards the battle field, at this point the beach is full with trojan soldiers.
now we see achilles arrive with his Myrmidons, they jump of the ship and we see 8 Myrmidons being killed by archers, then when they form the shield wall i counted them by the shields there are 32 Myrmidons without achilles, which leads as to the fact achilles was on the ship with 40 Myrmidons.
now until this point 8 were taken out because while getting off the ship they were defenseless, as soon as they formed the shield wall they were ready to battle, now the situation is like that, a beach full of archers and horseman vs achilles and 32 Myrmidons.
then we see the fight, most of whats going on is focusing on achilles however in the background we see his Myrmidons taking trojans out, achilles himself defeated 20 trojans but we clearly saw the beach was full with archers and horseman, who took them all out? the Myrmidons.
clear enough?
now lets get to the spartans again, you see the persian army a very big army however it wasnt the entire persian army that attacked them, they were sending wave after wave of small units because of the neckbottle situation where they couldnt fit large numbers of soldiers in the first place, the spartans had the tactic and reach advantage due to their spears, once the trained immortals got there they were manage to slaughter several spartans.
funny thing is at the final stand leonidas left with like 30 spartans same amount of soldiers achilles had when invading the beach, the difference is the spartns fell like flies in this situation once they were in an open field, the Myrmidons and achilles conquered the entire beach where the trojans had the tactical advantage of high and traps.
overall that clearly tell us achilles and his Myrmidons are superior to leonidas and the spartans.
Originally posted by red sabre
you are strawmaning because you got caught for making numbers out of your a$$ and instead of admiting you make strange excuses.again you are with this thousands bullcrap? until you show me any evidance the spartans killed thousands of persians your point is invalid.
i watched the clip and counted, first of all before achilles reach the beach with his Myrmidons we see how large the trojan army is the one that is waiting for them, we see dozens of archers, and we see a lot of horseman riding towards the battle field, at this point the beach is full with trojan soldiers.
now we see achilles arrive with his Myrmidons, they jump of the ship and we see 8 Myrmidons being killed by archers, then when they form the shield wall i counted them by the shields there are 32 Myrmidons without achilles, which leads as to the fact achilles was on the ship with 40 Myrmidons.
now until this point 8 were taken out because while getting off the ship they were defenseless, as soon as they formed the shield wall they were ready to battle, now the situation is like that, a beach full of archers and horseman vs achilles and 32 Myrmidons.
then we see the fight, most of whats going on is focusing on achilles however in the background we see his Myrmidons taking trojans out, achilles himself defeated 20 trojans but we clearly saw the beach was full with archers and horseman, who took them all out? the Myrmidons.
clear enough?
now lets get to the spartans again, you see the persian army a very big army however it wasnt the entire persian army that attacked them, they were sending wave after wave of small units because of the neckbottle situation where they couldnt fit large numbers of soldiers in the first place, the spartans had the tactic and reach advantage due to their spears, once the trained immortals got there they were manage to slaughter several spartans.
funny thing is at the final stand leonidas left with like 30 spartans same amount of soldiers achilles had when invading the beach, the difference is the spartns fell like flies in this situation once they were in an open field, the Myrmidons and achilles conquered the entire beach where the trojans had the tactical advantage of high and traps.
overall that clearly tell us achilles and his Myrmidons are superior to leonidas and the spartans.
A "strawman" isn't being incorrect and then saying "yeah, I was incorrect". 🙂
AS forthe rest, I recommend you watch the clips closely, stop downplaying the Spartans and stop wanking the Myrmidons. 🙂
Originally posted by Robtard
Arbitrary claims of victory won't make the video clips/facts go away 🙂 This isn't the Comic Vs forum 🙂
i addressed everything and gave explanation.
to tell you the truth i find the spartans to be cooler than the Myrmidons.
but i got to stick to the truth, and achilles? this guy is too much of a factor.
Originally posted by red sabre
i addressed everything and gave explanation.to tell you the truth i find the spartans to be cooler than the Myrmidons.
but i got to stick to the truth, and achilles? this guy is too much of a factor.
Maybe we got off on the wrong side of things.
Achilles is hands down the best fighter here, but a Spartan to his Myrmidon, the Spartans are far superior. 300 clearly portrayed these guys as super-soldier types. While the Myrmidons were good fighters, but the film Troy was basically Achilles' show.
Having said the above, I don't see Achilles' superiority above others turning the tide to favor his side in the group battle when you factor the Spartan to Myrmidon advantage, why I went with:
-Achilles in the first round
-Spartans in the second
Originally posted by Robtard
Maybe we got off on the wrong side of things.Achilles is hands down the best fighter here, but a Spartan to his Myrmidon, the Spartans are far superior. 300 clearly portrayed these guys as super-soldier types. While the Myrmidons were good fighters, but the film Troy was Achilles' show.
Having said the above, I don't see his superiority above others will turn the tide to favor his side in the group battle when you fastor the Spartan to Myrmidon advantage, why I went with:
-Achilles in the first round
-Spartans in the second
ok lets put it this way, you clearly got your own opinion which is fine and i got my own, until we actually see them battle we cant know much but we can speculate and take guesses.
i understand the way you see things, and then i explained the way i personally see things, so you think spartans because of how strong and brutal they were portrayed, i think Myrmidons because of how they conquered the entire beach and basically stated as the best greek army at that time.
overall both are great armies that use same tactics , are very organized brave and powerful, the Myrmidons perhaps didnt look so stunning because of achilles he stole the show, but doesnt matter what army you give achilles he will leave his army in the dust compared to his skills.
and by the way if i want to be fair then i have also to give the spartans credit for fighting for days without a rest, lets not forget that at their final stand they were probably exhausted after fighting all those waves of armies, the Myrmidons were fresh to fight, of course they were sailing for days to troja and werent 100% themselves however it doesnt compare to the spartans that went thru hell until their last stand.
