-N.B. I was tallying votes to determine whether there was consensus agreement on whether skill-based powers are to be included in the consideration of placement. While there was only one person who explicitly voted one way or the other, the Iron Fist vote seems to confirm that participants of this thread will be taking into account skill-based power. When I get a chance I may ask Digi to edit my opening posts with (both the updated hierarchy and) this clarification of what's under consideration.
-I should note that movement of either Canary or Drakon down without replacement will simply result in a vacant DC top tier slot.
-The following additions will be instituted in the next update (which I will do soon) unless there are any objections.
Ares (DC) to second: 3 [Omega, Q99, comicfan] /
Caiera to third: 2 [Omega, jalek] /
Spider-Man to fourth: 2 [Omega, jalek] /
Lex Luthor to fourth: 2 [Omega, Q99] /
-The proposed changes to Iron Fist, Gamora and Mister Terrific, which all have 3 vote majorities, will also be instituted unless there's a swing in the votes.
-Can people weigh in on the huge list below, before we move onto any new additions or changes for a bit? Particularly the Old Proposed Changes.
-OmegaV I've noted the suggestions from page 7, Steppenwolf, Mr Miracle and Harley, but haven't added them to this list yet since it's too long as it is.
Proposed Additions' Entry Points
Darkseid to second tier: 1 [Gecko4lif] /
Darkseid to fourth tier: 1 [Omega] /
Nemesis (Charis Adrastea) to second tier: 1 [Style] /
Kanto to second tier: 2 [Omega, comicfan] /
Mera to third: 1 [Omega] / 1 [comicfan]
Tombstone to fourth: 1 [Omega] /
Juggernaut to fourth: 1 [Omega] /
Faora to second:1 [Omega] /
Catman to second?: 1 [srank] /
Savant (BoP) to second: 2 [Pr, Q99] /
Old Proposed Changes
Jubilee to third: 3 [Cresh, Q99, Konton] / 4 [llag, Nataku, Blanket, Style]
Kingpin to second: 5 [V, jrod, srank, capt, Accel] / 6 [Soljer, llag, Macoy, Nataku, Blanket, Style]
Moon Knight to second: 4 [llagrok, Fake McCoy, Alfheim, Mungi] / 4 [Soljer, capt, endrict, Blanket]
Midnighter to second: 2 [Soljer, Blanket] / 3 [Style, endrict, srank]
Blade to second: 5 [marwash, snoop, endrict, Darth Martin, Blanket] / 4 [Style, llagrok, capt, srank]
New Proposed Changes
Constantine Drakon to second: 1 [Q99] / 1 [srank]
or Drakon to uber: 1 [Q99] /
Tim Drake to second: 2 [Pr, MM] / 1 [Konton]
Alpha to second: 1 [Q99] /
Mad Dog Cain to second: 1 [Q99] /
Gamora to uber: 7 [dmills, Omega, Konton, Boubonmaster, Q99, jalek, srank?] / 4 [ODG, Blanket, Smurph, SuperiorTech]
Black Canary to second: 2 [Omega, Pr] / 2 [srank, Konton]
Aquaman to third: 2 [Omega, comicfan] /
Merlyn (DC) to third: 1 [comicfan] /
Ares (Marvel) to second: 2 [ODG, comicfan] /
Mister Terrific to second: 3 [Omega, comicfan, Q99] / 0
Hercules to second: 1 [comicfan] /
Iron Fist to uber: 6 [ODG, dmills, marwash, jalek, Q99, MM] / 1 [srank]
Twelve Brothers to third: 1 [Q99] /
P.S. I don't think I've missed any votes, but if I have let me know/repost them.
Old Proposed Changes
Kingpin to second: No
Moon Knight to second: No
Midnighter to second: No
New Proposed Changes
Replace Constantine Drakon with Wonder Woman: No
Alpha to second: Yes
Mad Dog Cain to second: Yes
Thanos to second: Yes
Captain Mar-Vell to second: Yes
Gamora to uber: Yes
Hawkeye to second: Yes
Green Arrow (Oliver) to third: Yes
The rest I don't know enough about to have an opinion.
Originally posted by dmillsGamora is currently in the tier above uber. The vote is to move her down one tier. Would you like me to change your vote to against moving her down?
I can almost with absolute certainty tell you that ODG is FOR Gamora to uber and Srank is against. Believe me when I tell you.
Originally posted by Q99I personally still don't see Drakon as considerably more skilled than others in the top tier. He's faster than a lot of the top tiers granted, but as I said earlier I can still see others in the tier fighting him evenly.
So does anyone other than me have an opinion on moving Constantine Drakon to uber?I mean, he's clearly not first tier. Everyone seemed to think he's not powered in the previous votes, in which case he outmatched Connor noticeably more than Shiva did.
That could mean that he may not be skilled enough to be in the top tier, but at the same time if it was purely his speed that he had at his disposal I don't really think he would have been able to match top tiers, let alone outmatch them.
I suppose that's the difficult thing with skilled characters who display meta abilities.
But I'm not generally casting votes anyway...
Re: Re: Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy
-Changes in bold. N.B. I have left Gamora as is for now, since there seems to be ambiguity to the votes.
-There is now an empty Marvel top tier slot.
Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy [205]
Cosmic Tier: (Transcendent Martial Artists) [3]
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis
Uber Tier: (Unearthly Martial Artists) [9]
Adam Warlock, Iron Fist, Kirigi (DC), Mandarin, Moondragon, O-Sensei, Ogun, Stick, Temugin
Top Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"😉 [17]
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman (Bruce Wayne), Black Canary, Bronze Tiger, Captain America (Steve Rogers), Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Daredevil, Elektra, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Snake-Eyes, Storm Shadow, Taskmaster, Wolverine
Second Tier: (Master Martial Artists) [63]
Agent X, Ares (DC), Artemis, Azrael, Backlash, Batman (Dick Grayson), Big Barda, Black Panther (T’Challa), Black Widow, Bucky Barnes, Bullseye, Cable, Captain Mar-Vell, Champion of the Universe, Cheshire, Crossbones, Daken, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Domino, Donatello, Echo, Erik Killmonger, Gorgon (Tomi Shishido), Grifter, Hawkeye (Clint Barton), Hawkman, Jason Blood, Judomaster (Hadley Jagger), Karnak, Lady Deathstrike, Leonardo, Magnus, Merlyn (DC), Michaelangelo, Midnight Sun, Mister Terrific, Mr Sensitive, Natas, Nick Fury, Nomad (Jack Monroe), Orion, Ozymandias (DC), Prometheus, Puck, Raphael, Ra's al Ghul, Ravager (Rose Wilson), Red Hood (Jason Todd), Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Steel Serpent, Stone, Talia al Ghul, Thanos, Twelve Brothers in Silk, Vandal Savage, White Tiger (Angela del Toro), Wildcat (Ted Grant), Wonder Woman, X-23, Zealot
Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists) [71]
Alpha, Ares (Marvel), Arsenal, Bane, Beta Ray Bill, Black Bolt, Black Cat, Black Knight (Dane Whitman), Blade, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Caiera, Colleen Wing, Doctor Doom, Doctor Mid-Nite, Doctor Strange, Donna Troy, Drax, Duke (GI Joe), Green Arrow (Oliver Queen), Grendel (Hunter Rose), Heavy Duty (GI Joe), Hercules, Hippolyta, Huntress, Kalibak, Katana, KGBeast, Kingpin, Lady Vic, Lashina, Lobo, Loki, Mad Dog Cain, Matsu'o Tsurayaba, Midnighter, Mister America (Tex Thomson), Mockingbird, Moon Knight, Mystique, Namor, Night Thrasher, Nightcrawler, Omega Red, Onyx, Prodigy, Psylocke, Punisher, Red Robin (Tim Drake), Revanche, Robin (Damian Wayne), Sabretooth, Sage, Shadowcat, Shatterstar, Shrike IV (Boone), Speedy (Mia Dearden), Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew), Stacy X, Starfire, Terry McGinnis, The Question (Vic Sage), Thena, Thor, Typhoid Mary, US Agent, V, Viper (Madame Hydra), Wild Child, Wong, Yukio
Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artists) [42]
Aquaman, Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Batwoman, Beast, Blink, Blue Devil, Boom Boom, Boy Blue, Cannonball, Carol Danvers, Catwoman, Cinderella, Colossus, Cyclops, Danielle Moonstar, Deathbird, Falcon, Gambit, Hawkgirl, Invisible Woman, Iron Man, Jamie Madrox, Joker, Jubilee, Lex Luthor, Luke Cage, Mister Fantastic, Misty Knight, Nite Owl II, Prince Charming, Rorschach, She-Hulk, Spider-Man, Storm, Strong Guy, Superman, Tarantula, Thing, Two-Face, Viper (Madame Hydra), Wonder Man, Zauriel
Notes
-I'll leave this not here for a bit. N.B. I was tallying votes to determine whether there was consensus agreement on whether skill-based powers are to be included in the consideration of placement. While there was only one person who explicitly voted one way or the other, the Iron Fist vote seems to confirm that participants of this thread will be taking into account skill-based power. When I get a chance I may ask Digi to edit my opening posts with (both the updated hierarchy and) this clarification of what's under consideration.
-I should note that movement of either Canary or Drakon down without replacement will simply result in a vacant DC top tier slot.
-There is a vacant Marvel slot in the top tier.
-Gamora will move down in the next update unless votes swing back, Alpha and Mad Dog Cain will be moved up to second, while Merlyn and the Twelve Brothers in Silk will move down to third. Aquaman will also move up to third if the change remains unopposed.
-Beyond nomination for the Marvel top tier slot can people weigh in on the huge list below, before we move onto any new additions or changes for a bit? Particularly the Old Proposed Changes. I've taken the liberty of casting a few votes on some of the changes I agree with (although in general I'm avoiding voting or nominating changes, as the facilitator of the thread.)
-OmegaV I've noted the suggestions from page 7, Steppenwolf, Mr Miracle and Harley, but haven't added them to this list yet since it's too long as it is.
Proposed Additions' Entry Points
Darkseid to second tier: 1 [Gecko4lif] /
Darkseid to fourth tier: 1 [Omega] /
Nemesis (Charis Adrastea) to second tier: 1 [Style] /
Kanto to second tier: 2 [Omega, comicfan] /
Mera to third: 1 [Omega] / 1 [comicfan]
Tombstone to fourth: 1 [Omega] /
Juggernaut to fourth: 1 [Omega] /
Faora to second:1 [Omega] /
Catman to second?: 1 [srank] /
Savant (BoP) to second: 2 [Pr, Q99] /
Old Proposed Changes
Jubilee to third: 3 [Cresh, Q99, Konton] / 4 [llag, Nataku, Blanket, Style]
Kingpin to second: 6 [Ize, V, jrod, srank, capt, Accel] / 6 [Soljer, llag, Macoy, Nataku, Blanket, Style]
Moon Knight to second: 5 [Ize, llagrok, Fake McCoy, Alfheim, Mungi] / 4 [Soljer, capt, endrict, Blanket]
Midnighter to second: 3 [Ize, Soljer, Blanket] / 3 [Style, endrict, srank]
Blade to second: 5 [marwash, snoop, endrict, Darth Martin, Blanket] / 4 [Style, llagrok, capt, srank]
New Proposed Changes
Constantine Drakon to second: 1 [Q99] / 1 [srank]
or Drakon to uber: 1 [Q99] / 1 [Pr]
Tim Drake to second: 3 [X, Pr, MM] / 1 [Konton]
Alpha to second: 3 [X, Ize, Q99] / 0
Mad Dog Cain to second: 3 [X, Ize, Q99] / 0
Gamora to uber: 8 [Ize, dmills, Omega, Konton, Boubonmaster, Q99, jalek, srank] / 5 [Tyrant, ODG, Blanket, Smurph, SuperiorTech]
Black Canary to second: 2 [Omega, Pr] / 2 [srank, Konton]
Aquaman to third: 2 [Omega, comicfan] / 0
Merlyn (DC) to third: 2 [X, comicfan] / 0
Ares (Marvel) to second: 2 [ODG, comicfan] / 0
Hercules to second: 1 [comicfan] /
Twelve Brothers to third: 2 [X, Q99] / 0
Gorgon to uber: 1 [dmills] /
Nominations for the Marvel Top Tier slot:
Black Panther [marwash]
Psylocke [dmills]
Sabretooth [dmills]
P.S. I don't think I've missed any votes, but if I have let me know/repost them.
Originally posted by dmillsThat line of questioning doesn't work 'cause i could pose the same queries about Cap's placement in Top Tier... where does the super soldier stuff end and the skill begin?
BP may be deserving, but where do gear and herbs end and the skills begin? My opinion about Sabes is based largely off of Logan's placement in this. But I'm not even going to open that can of worms.
Argh, Iron Fist got moved to Uber? So... do we need to move Shang-Chi and Elektra up as well, since we are apparently arbitrarily bumping up characters based purely on chi abilities and not technical prowess?
Mr. X for the open top tier slot I guess, but I think we need to reassess the placement of Taskmasters in that grouping as well. Sad to say, but maybe Psylocke is more worthy of that position than Tasky.