Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy

Lulz @ Gamora to uber. I don't even see where Boubounmaster or Omega Vision vote against her. But apparently, class 70 strength and hotly debated super agility negates mastery of 83.4% of the universe's armed and unarmed techniques. Who exactly would she have to nerve-strike to be in the cosmic tier that's above foes like Maxam who've matched PG Drax? Does she have to nerve-strike Galactus or a Celestial because her class 70 strength works somehow works against her?

😂

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I think Gambit to third sounds good.

Edit: Also I kind of think Cassandra Cain belongs in Uber tier but I understand if not many people agree with me.

I oppose this.

Originally posted by batdude123
Except one number is bigger.

The only reason I brought it up is because another poster brought up a similar "dick measuring" feat for Wolverine.

Pish posh 😖leep:

Incapacitate is a much broader term than kill, so that immediately opens a lot of extra doors, some random schmuck isn't exactly Crusher Creel which opens a few more, and their position was much different, Wolverine didn't even have any free hands. 😎

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Lulz @ Gamora to uber. I don't even see where Boubounmaster or Omega Vision vote against her. But apparently, class 70 strength and hotly debated super agility negates mastery of 83.4% of the universe's armed and unarmed techniques. Who exactly would she have to nerve-strike to be in the cosmic tier that's above foes like Maxam who've matched PG Drax? Does she have to nerve-strike Galactus or a Celestial because her class 70 strength works somehow works against her?

😂 I support this.

I oppose this.

Daredevil dropped a nerve strike on Hyde, and he Matt isn't class 70, he isn't even calss 1... and he actually managed to do it during the flow of combat? Should he be uber too? What do you think? 😱

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. You should be glad no one on this forum cares she's never beaten anyone of merit in skill and she gets the benefit of the doubt for no damn reason. She should be in the second tier grouping. Count your blessings.

To be honest, I haven't seen much from Gamora in the way of impressive skill. Her best showing of skill is probably stalemating Wolverine.

Of course it's been a while since I've read the Adam Warlock series.

Omega is here:

Originally posted by Omega Vision
^ Second Black Canary to Second and Mister Terrific to Second as well as Gamora to Uber and DC Ares to Second.

But Bouboumaster is my bad.

I'll redo the last update to the hierarchy and the votes, since the Gamora move didn't reach a three-vote majority yet.

-The changes and additions that have been made are in bold, based on the following votes which are either lack any forthcoming opposition and/or have three vote majorities:
Darkseid to fourth tier: 2 [Omega, jalek] /
Blade to second: 7 [Deadline, YFZ, marwash, snoop, endrict, Darth Martin, Blanket] / 4 [Style, llagrok, capt, srank]
Alpha to second: 3 [X, Ize, Q99] / 0
Mad Dog Cain to second: 3 [X, Ize, Q99] / 0
Aquaman to third: 3 [jalek, Omega, comicfan] / 0
Twelve Brothers to third: 2 [X, Q99] / 0
Merlyn (DC) to third: 2 [X, comicfan] / 0

-There is now an empty Marvel top tier slot.

Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy [205]

Cosmic Tier: (Transcendent Martial Artists) [3]
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis

Uber Tier: (Unearthly Martial Artists) [9]
Adam Warlock, Iron Fist, Kirigi (DC), Mandarin, Moondragon, O-Sensei, Ogun, Stick, Temugin

Top Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"😉 [17]
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman (Bruce Wayne), Black Canary, Bronze Tiger, Captain America (Steve Rogers), Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Daredevil, Elektra, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Snake-Eyes, Storm Shadow, Taskmaster, Wolverine

Second Tier: (Master Martial Artists) [64]
Agent X, Alpha, Ares (DC), Artemis, Azrael, Backlash, Batman (Dick Grayson), Big Barda, Black Panther (T’Challa), Black Widow, Blade, Bucky Barnes, Bullseye, Cable, Captain Mar-Vell, Champion of the Universe, Cheshire, Crossbones, Daken, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Domino, Donatello, Echo, Erik Killmonger, Gorgon (Tomi Shishido), Grifter, Hawkeye (Clint Barton), Hawkman, Jason Blood, Judomaster (Hadley Jagger), Karnak, Lady Deathstrike, Leonardo, Mad Dog Cain, Magnus, Michaelangelo, Midnight Sun, Mister Terrific, Mr Sensitive, Natas, Nick Fury, Nomad (Jack Monroe), Orion, Ozymandias (DC), Prometheus, Puck, Raphael, Ra's al Ghul, Ravager (Rose Wilson), Red Hood (Jason Todd), Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Steel Serpent, Stone, Talia al Ghul, Thanos, Vandal Savage, White Tiger (Angela del Toro), Wildcat (Ted Grant), Wonder Woman, X-23, Zealot

Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists) [70]
Aquaman, Ares (Marvel), Arsenal, Bane, Beta Ray Bill, Black Bolt, Black Cat, Black Knight (Dane Whitman), Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Caiera, Colleen Wing, Doctor Doom, Doctor Mid-Nite, Doctor Strange, Donna Troy, Drax, Duke (GI Joe), Green Arrow (Oliver Queen), Grendel (Hunter Rose), Heavy Duty (GI Joe), Hercules, Hippolyta, Huntress, Kalibak, Katana, KGBeast, Kingpin, Lady Vic, Lashina, Lobo, Loki, Matsu'o Tsurayaba, Merlyn (DC), Midnighter, Mister America (Tex Thomson), Mockingbird, Moon Knight, Mystique, Namor, Night Thrasher, Nightcrawler, Omega Red, Onyx, Prodigy, Psylocke, Punisher, Red Robin (Tim Drake), Revanche, Robin (Damian Wayne), Sabretooth, Sage, Shadowcat, Shatterstar, Shrike IV (Boone), Speedy (Mia Dearden), Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew), Stacy X, Starfire, Terry McGinnis, The Question (Vic Sage), Thena, Thor, Twelve Brothers in Silk, Typhoid Mary, US Agent, V, Viper (Madame Hydra), Wild Child, Wong, Yukio

Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artists) [42]
Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Batwoman, Beast, Blink, Blue Devil, Boom Boom, Boy Blue, Cannonball, Carol Danvers, Catwoman, Cinderella, Colossus, Cyclops, Danielle Moonstar, Darkseid, Deathbird, Falcon, Gambit, Hawkgirl, Invisible Woman, Iron Man, Jamie Madrox, Joker, Jubilee, Lex Luthor, Luke Cage, Mister Fantastic, Misty Knight, Nite Owl II, Prince Charming, Rorschach, She-Hulk, Spider-Man, Storm, Strong Guy, Superman, Tarantula, Thing, Two-Face, Viper (Madame Hydra), Wonder Man, Zauriel [/B][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
To be honest, I haven't seen much from Gamora in the way of impressive skill. Her best showing of skill is probably stalemating Wolverine.

Of course it's been a while since I've read the Adam Warlock series.

She is there because she was created by Thanos, which gives KMC posters a boner, and the arbitrary title of "the most Dangerous woman in the Universe." She hasn't done anything of note. Champion should be Cosmic tier for all the sense it makes Gamora being there...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Daredevil dropped a nerve strike on Hyde, and he Matt isn't class 70, he isn't even calss 1... and he actually managed to do it during the flow of combat? Should he be uber too? What do you think? 😱

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. You should be glad no one on this forum cares she's never beaten anyone of merit in skill and she gets the benefit of the doubt for no damn reason. She should be in the second tier grouping. Count your blessings.

And actually, if you paid attention to my argument, I was dismissing the use of an opponents' relative strength as any sort of flatly determinative factor when it comes to skill. Did you see that point? Obviously not. Flew right past your head. S'ok, srankmissingnin.

And characterizing Gamora as a gift horse when she's been considered that high for ages until just now is jaundiced at best. And you're free to nominate Gamora be brought down an additional two tiers and see what kind of support you get. Why, out of sheer coincidence, this would support the argument (that hasn't been made in any thread of recent memory), that Wolverine is more skilled than Gamora! What are the chances that you of all people would be suggesting that also?! Astronomical to be sure. Clearly.

Notes
-I'll leave this not here for a bit. N.B. I was tallying votes to determine whether there was consensus agreement on whether skill-based powers are to be included in the consideration of placement. While there was only one person who explicitly voted one way or the other, the Iron Fist vote seems to confirm that participants of this thread will be taking into account skill-based power. When I get a chance I may ask Digi to edit my opening posts with (both the updated hierarchy and) this clarification of what's under consideration.

-I should note that movement of either Canary or Drakon down without replacement will simply result in a vacant DC top tier slot.

-There is a vacant Marvel slot in the top tier.

-Beyond nomination for the Marvel top tier slot can people weigh in on the huge list below, before we move onto any new additions or changes for a bit? Particularly the Old Proposed Changes. I've taken the liberty of casting a few votes on some of the changes I agree with (although in general I'm avoiding voting or nominating changes, as the facilitator of the thread.)

Proposed Additions' Entry Points
Nemesis (Charis Adrastea) to second tier: 1 [Style] /
Kanto to second tier: 2 [Omega, comicfan] /
Mera to third: 1 [Omega] / 1 [comicfan]
Tombstone to fourth: 1 [Omega] /
Juggernaut to fourth: 1 [Omega] /
Faora to second:1 [Omega] /
Catman to second: 1 [srank] /
Savant (BoP) to second: 2 [Pr, Q99] /

Old Proposed Changes
Jubilee to third: 3 [Cresh, Q99, Konton] / 4 [llag, Nataku, Blanket, Style]
Kingpin to second: 6 [Ize, V, jrod, srank, capt, Accel] / 7 [dmills, Soljer, llag, Macoy, Nataku, Blanket, Style]
Moon Knight to second: 6 [dmills, Ize, llagrok, Fake McCoy, Deadline, Mungi] / 5 [Soljer, capt, endrict, Blanket, YFZ]
Midnighter to second: 3 [Ize, Soljer, Blanket] / 4 [Style, endrict, srank, dmills]

New Proposed Changes
Gamora to uber: 8 [marwash, Ize, dmills, Omega, Konton, Q99, jalek, srank] / 6 [galactisishere, Tyrant, ODG, Blanket, Smurph, SuperiorTech]
Constantine Drakon to second: 1 [Q99] / 1 [srank]
or Drakon to uber: 1 [Q99] / 1 [Pr]
Tim Drake to second: 3 [X, Pr, MM] / 1 [Konton]
Black Canary to second: 2 [Omega, Pr] / 2 [srank, Konton]
Ares (Marvel) to second: 2 [ODG, comicfan] / 1 [jalek]
Hercules to second: 1 [comicfan] / 1 [jalek]
Gorgon to uber: 1 [dmills] /
Drax to second: 2 [dmills, AlmightyK] / 0
Superman to third: 1 [Pr]
Psylocke to replace Taskmaster: 1 [srank] / 1 [AlmightyK]
Punisher to second: 2 [YFZ, Deadline] / 0
Gambit to third: 4 [ODG, Omega, snoop, Mungi] / 0
Batgirl (Cass) to uber: 1 [Omega] / 1 [ODG]

Nominations for the Marvel Top Tier slot:
Black Panther: 2 [marwash, Q99]
Psylocke: 1 [dmills]
Sabretooth: 1 [dmills]
Mr X: 1 [srank] / 1 [dmills]

P.S. I don't think I've missed any votes, but if I have or have made any mistakes then let me know/repost them.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Omega is here:

But Bouboumaster is my bad.

I'll redo the last update to the hierarchy and the votes, since the Gamora move didn't reach a three-vote majority yet.

But also, lulz at how it all turned out in the end.'

Finally, before I forget, I am for Black Canary to second tier.

EDIT: Wait. I thought she was down in third tier. She's in top tier now, so the proposal is to move her down a spot. In any case, I do support Black Canary to move to second tier anyway. I can see her hanging well with top tier but being decisively beaten by everyone there. I'm open to proof to the contrary.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Translation: I am butt-hurt from Iron Fist moving up.

And actually, if you paid attention to my argument, I was dismissing the use of an opponents' relative strength as any sort of flatly determinative factor when it comes to skill. Did you see that point? Obviously not. Flew right past your head. S'ok, srankmissingnin.

And characterizing Gamora as a gift horse when she's been considered that high for ages until just now is jaundiced at best. And you're free to nominate Gamora be brought down an additional two tiers and see what kind of support you get. Why, out of sheer coincidence, this would support the argument (that hasn't been made in any thread of recent memory), that Wolverine is more skilled than Gamora! What are the chances that you of all people would be suggesting that also?! Astronomical to be sure. Clearly.

Danny shouldn't have been moved up, but the rules to determine placement where changed to count Chi amping as an extension of skill. With the new stipulations its fine to move Danny up. I do think adding an amendment that includes chi abilities as a measure of skill was a mistake, but its not that big of a deal.

Gamora's not a gift horse, her placement on this list is. She hasn't done anything to merit her placement on this list. How is one of the top three placements on the list with nothing to back it, not a gift horse. She has been given priority listing on a benefit of the doubt opinion. Nothing Gamora has done is as impressive as what Batman, Daredevil or Shang-Chi have done, and physically they are a sliver of her potential. So why is she so high on the list? You can say what ever you want about not using a characters strength to determine their relative skill level, but it doesn't mater if you aren't going to listen to yourself. If Gamora was stripped of her attributes and placed in a peak human body, you honestly feel comfortable saying that she would soundly beat Batman in h2h? Name a single thing that suggest that is something she is capable of doing? A single thing. Based on her feats it would be a stretch to say she could match Batman in h2h given a body on equal footing... and yet she is one of the highest characters on this list. WTF

Yeah who would have thought that the same opinion I had in one thread would be the same in another thread. Shocking.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Danny shouldn't have been moved up, but the rules to determine placement where changed to count Chi amping as an extension of skill. With the new stipulations its fine to move Danny up. I do think adding an amendment that includes chi abilities as a measure of skill was a mistake, but its not that big of a deal.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If Gamora was stripped of her attributes and placed in a peak human body, you honestly feel comfortable saying that she would soundly beat Batman in h2h? Name a single thing that suggest that is something she is capable of doing? A single thing.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yeah who would have thought that the same opinion I had in one thread would be the same in another thread. Shocking.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Easily. Against Batman, her consistent and proficient use of pressure points throughout her career (as much as anybody relative to the number of total appearances she has) wouldn't be negated by a diminution in strength. At all. It's not like she'll forget her pressure point skills when her strength gets lowered. Like I said: you've got the notion, so go right ahead and nominate that Gamora be moved down from cosmic to second tier. Three whole tiers.

Now why don't you do the math again and this time remember that none of her pressure point attacks are during the flow of combat and that she said her self that she wouldn't be able to land one on Thing during a real fight (and Cyclops) without help. Batman has more pressure point feats, and he has better pressure point feats, his take place during actually fights and one top of having pressure point feats he actually has legitimate fights with other top tier martial artists, which is something Gamora doesn't have.

Maybe after I get her moved down to Uber I'll consider it.

^ None of her pressure point attacks come during the flow of combat? And that she was worthless against a strong, durable, big-fisted opponent like Thing? On both of these attenuated points, I guess you forgot about Gamora using pressure points on a far stronger, faster, more skilled and more durable opponent like Maxam during the flow of combat:

I'll assume you innocently were never aware of this particular fight of Gamora's and aren't being utterly ignorant/dismissive of it when you made your false statement. And Batman does not have more pressure point attacks relative to the number of appearances he's had compared to Gamora.

Good luck with your crusade to move Gamora down three whole tiers, so that she sits below Wolverine. Seriously.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ None of her pressure point attacks come during the flow of combat? And that she was worthless against a strong, durable, big-fisted opponent like Thing? On both of these attenuated points, I guess you forgot about Gamora using pressure points on a far stronger, faster, more skilled and more durable opponent like Maxam:

I'll assume you innocently were never aware of this particular fight of Gamora's and aren't being utterly ignorant/dismissive of it when you made your false statement. And Batman does not have more pressure point attacks relative to the number of appearances he's had compared to Gamora.

Good luck with your crusade to move Gamora down three tiers below Wolverine. Seriously.

Maybe you'd like to post the panel that you think is Gamora using a pressure point on Maxam because I don't think that happened in any of their fights. She said she couldn't pressure point Thing during an actual fight, and despite your delusions, that isn't something she has shown she can do.

EDIT: A f'n judo chop to the back of the neck is what counts as a pressure point in your book? lmao. Yeah, like I said, she never pressure pointed Maxam in their fights.

I don't have a comprehensive list of all of Batman's pressure points off to top of my head, but as luck would have it I do have a list off all of Gamoras. She got the drop on Nightthrasher and Rage (on separate occasions) and koed them with a pressure point. Then Sasquatch held Thing in a full nelson and she koed him with a pressure point, saying that it wasn't something she could do in an actual fight. That's it. That is the list of feats that makes you think that not only is Gamora in the same ball park as Batman or DD in terms of skill but that she far eclipses it. Seriously... are you high?

Batman's pressure point feats are better, far better, and they aren't the only messure of his skill. So once again I ask. What makes you think Gamora deserves that spot?

^ Third panel, maybe? Where she uses the butt of the axe to hit his "weak spot" that makes him cry out in pain when he doesn't even get bruised by PG Drax's punches?

It's not even a judo chop. Look at the third panel.

You're asking me if I'm high when you can't even distinguish between a judo chop and using the butt-end of an axe? Seriously?

And lulz at you trying to use Batman/Daredevil as your Wolverine-proxy for this argument. Subtle, this is not.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Third panel, maybe? Where she uses the butt of the axe to hit his "weak spot" that makes him cry out in pain when he doesn't even get bruised by PG Drax's punches?

It's not even a judo chop. Look at the third panel.

You're asking me if I'm high when you can't even distinguish between a judo chop and using the butt-end of an axe? Seriously?

And lulz at you trying to use Batman/Daredevil as your Wolverine-proxy for this argument. Subtle, this is not.

I was trying to edit the post fast and mistyped. Axe chop, not judo, happy? 🙄

She hit him in the back of the neck with the end of her axe. Big deal, that's not a pressure point. Is it a weak spot? Ahhhh... yes... its called the spinal cord. Ever heard of it? The knee cap is a weak spot too, but it isn't a pressure point... it's just facts of anatomy.

I thought you where going to show me an example of Gamora pressure pointing Maxam during combat?

Batman and Daredevil use pressure points more than Wolverine. Pressure points are your sole argument for Gamora's posting. So... why wouldn't I point out that the guys in the first tier category three levels below Gamora have significantly more impressive and numerous pressure points feats under their belts?

She dropped two members of the New Warriors and a Thing who was held in restraint. That's the evidence for Gamora's placement. That is crazy. You can't see that?

^ Happy? No, simply amused.

Her finding a "weak spot" on Maxam -- who is virtually invulnerable since he literally matched PG Drax -- and hitting that spot causing him to yelp out in pain isn't hitting a pressure point? Now you're just reaching with these quaneuvers of yours.

Pressure points weren't my sole reason for placing her this high. There's also her mastery of 83.4% of the universe's known armed and unarmed fighting techniques. I'll also assume you simply were never aware of that, despite the fact its been pointed out to you. I know some other people (clearly not you), are trying to suggest that when you take her strength away, she forgets these martial arts skills.

Batman has thousands of appearances. Probably 1000+ fights. He's got, what... maybe anywhere between 50-100 instances of using pressure points? And maybe 50+ of those one-shotted the opponent? Gamora has 100+ appearances. Around 20 fights. She's got, what... 6+ instances of using pressure points? And 4 of them one-shot the opponent? Have I spelled out this comparison enough for you?

She's used pressure points on her assailants back when she was 15. That was pre-cosmic makeover, pre-Warlock upgrade and pre-bionic upgrade. She's used them against Night Thrasher, Rage, and Thing as you mentioned. She's used them against Thanos and Maxam. That's 6 off the top of my head. Again, I'll chalk this up to you simply having never read Gamora's appearances. I won't accuse you of reading them but summarily and arbitrarily dismissing them for no apparent reason in furtherance of some misguided random crusade.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Happy? No, simply amused.

Her finding a "weak spot" on Maxam -- who is virtually invulnerable since he literally matched PG Drax -- and hitting that spot causing him to yelp out in pain isn't hitting a pressure point? Now you're just reaching with these quaneuvers of yours.

Pressure points weren't my sole reason for placing her this high. There's also her mastery of 83.4% of the universe's known armed and unarmed fighting techniques. I'll also assume you simply were never aware of that, despite the fact its been pointed out to you. I know some other people (clearly not you), are trying to suggest that when you take her strength away, she forgets these martial arts skills.

Batman has thousands of appearances. Probably 1000+ fights. He's got, what... maybe anywhere between 50-100 instances of using pressure points? And maybe 50+ of those one-shotted the opponent? Gamora has 100+ appearances. Around 20 fights. She's got, what... 6+ instances of using pressure points? And 4 of them one-shot the opponent? Have I spelled out this comparison enough for you?

She's used pressure points on her assailants back when she was 15. That was pre-cosmic makeover, pre-Warlock upgrade and pre-bionic upgrade. She's used them against Night Thrasher, Rage, and Thing as you mentioned. She's used them against Thanos and Maxam. That's 6 off the top of my head. Again, I'll chalk this up to you simply having never read Gamora's appearances. I won't accuse you of reading them but summarily and arbitrarily dismissing them for no apparent reason in furtherance of some misguided random crusade.

Yeah, because a weak spot must be a pressure point. 🙄

Stop projecting what you are looking for onto feats and start finding feats that are actually showcase what you are saying. She hit him in the back of the next, that is a vulnerable area on anyone with remotely human anatomy who has a brain stem. Unless you'd like to broaden the term pressure point so that it encompasses any hit, that isn't an example of a pressure point.

Once again - at maybe you should get a pen and a pad and right this down 'cause I'm getting tired of saying it - actions speak louder than words. I don't care what has been said about Gamora, I care about what she has done. Regardless of how many martial arts she said to have mastered, or how skilled she's said to be, she hasn't showcased it. Now, if you want to say that Gamora should more skilled than Batman, then go a head, but what she should be able to and actual can do are two completely different things. In a feat for feat comparison she doesn't have a single skill feat on the same level as the best feats of the top tier MAs..

She didn't pressure point Maxam, but you are right she did use a pressure point in a sparing match against Thanos, so... four completely irrelevant pressure points she can't replicate during actual combat? Check. Oh, but lets not forget on how she did it to some cannon fodder, either! I must say, between you an I, you are doing a bang up job of stating your case. Bravo.

^ Maybe a weak spot where bone covers highly sensitive nerves -- and enough pressure applied against the bone pinches the nerves -- is a pressure point? How is a precise shot to the vertebrae any different from a precise shot to the solar plexus in this respect?

Irony. Oh, the irony.

I'm trying to find where you successfully mount an attack on the notion that Batman has fewer pressure point attacks relative to his fights/appearances compared to Gamora, who has more pressure point attacks relative to her fights/appearances. Couldn't find it. Oh well, maybe next time?

And she also used a pressure point attack on Maxam, "during the flow of combat." In any case, you were wrong that she only used three pressure point attacks ever. Because you acknowledge she did use it against Thanos. And because you acknowledge that she did use it against aliens when she was 15, before any of her upgrades. If by "bang up job of stating your case," you mean "bang up job of proving you wrong and you admitting so," then I suppose I'll have to pat myself on the back too. Yay me.