Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Maybe a weak spot where bone covers highly sensitive nerves -- and enough pressure applied against the bone pinches the nerves -- is a pressure point? How is a precise shot to the vertebrae any different from a precise shot to the solar plexus in this respect?

Irony. Oh, the irony.

I'm trying to find where you successfully mount an attack on the notion that Batman has fewer pressure point attacks relative to his fights/appearances compared to Gamora, who has more pressure point attacks relative to her fights/appearances. Couldn't find it. Oh well, maybe next time?

And she also used a pressure point attack on Maxam, "during the flow of combat." In any case, you were wrong that she only used three pressure point attacks ever. Because you acknowledge she did use it against Thanos. And because you acknowledge that she did use it against aliens when she was 15, before any of her upgrades. If by "bang up job of stating your case," you mean "bang up job of proving you wrong and you admitting so," then I suppose I'll have to pat myself on the back too. Yay me.

Generally, I don't count anything I could do successfully as a pressure point / nerve cluster attack. I can chop a guy in the back of the neck or the throat and put him down for the count. Pretty much anyone can. Obviously I can't do that to Maxam, but I'm not a class 70 comic martial artist. Of course, you can theorize that it was a pressure point attack if you'd like, we all know how you love to theorize based on very little. She clocked him in the brain stem, not exactly something restricted to the upper echelon of fighters.

I don't need to "mount a successful attack," about the idea that Gamora has more pressure point attacks relative to her smaller pool of appearances. Even assuming she does, its completely irrelevant. Batman's are better as well as more numerous. Gamora's feats coming from a smaller data pool doesn't mean we pretend they are better than they are in an attempt to even playing field. A simple side by side comparison of Batman's best pressure point feats and Gamora's is an open in shut case. Thats what matters. His are better. Significantly better. How does Gamora having less appearances change the fact that the appearances she does have don't paint her as nearly as impressive as Batman in martial prowess?

You didn't prove me wrong. I never said those where the only three examples, they are just the only three I cited. Rage, Night Thrasher and the Thing are the three "names" she beat. Those are the examples that matter (how ever slightly), and those are three examples I wanted to speak against. I don't really care that she judo chopped (hehe) a random nameless alien in the throat, or that she tagged her surrogate father with a pressure point during a sparing match. I don't think either is relevant or needs to be addressed.

I'm against Psylocke to replace Taskmaster.
I think she'd get wrecked in by too many second tiers (Ravager, Lady Deathstrike, WW, Barda), sans powers.

All for Punisher to second tier.

Twelve Brothers in Silk should probably be in second tier. Black Canary said each one of them was near Shiva in skill and they took out some top tiers in Birds of Prey. Anyone who can work over Green Arrow AND Richard Dragon should be noted.

Against Batgirl to uber.

Top Tier Marvel slot could go to X-23.

She got a rather substantial skill upgrade not too long ago, she would take all those guys for the majority sans powers.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
She is there because she was created by Thanos, which gives KMC posters a boner, and the arbitrary title of "the most Dangerous woman in the Universe." She hasn't done anything of note. Champion should be Cosmic tier for all the sense it makes Gamora being there...

Yea, unless I missed some amazing showings, I disagree with her being that high up. The title of the most dangerous woman of the Universe is just that, a title. I have no problem with her being there if she has the showings but I simply haven't seen them.

Her greatest hand to hand feat like I stated is stalemating and then losing to Wolverine when they were both distracted.

Why are characters like Thor, Hercules, Midnighter, Psylocke a tier lower than characters like Wonder Woman, Thanos, and Champion?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

Her greatest hand to hand feat like I stated is stalemating and then losing to Wolverine when they were both distracted.

That is a lie. I see what you did there.

http://img241.imageshack.us/i/possiblehealingfactor2aw9.jpg/

Its bloody obvious he wasn't disctracted hes not even looking at Maxam. facepalm

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Generally, I don't count anything I could do successfully as a pressure point / nerve cluster attack. I can chop a guy in the back of the neck or the throat and put him down for the count. Pretty much anyone can. Obviously I can't do that to Maxam, but I'm not a class 70 comic martial artist. Of course, you can theorize that it was a pressure point attack if you'd like, we all know how you love to theorize based on very little. She clocked him in the brain stem, not exactly something restricted to the upper echelon of fighters.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I don't need to "mount a successful attack," about the idea that Gamora has more pressure point attacks relative to her smaller pool of appearances. Even assuming she does, its completely irrelevant. Batman's are better as well as more numerous. Gamora's feats coming from a smaller data pool doesn't mean we pretend they are better than they are in an attempt to even playing field. A simple side by side comparison of Batman's best pressure point feats and Gamora's is an open in shut case. Thats what matters. His are better. Significantly better. How does Gamora having less appearances change the fact that the appearances she does have don't paint her as nearly as impressive as Batman in martial prowess?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
You didn't prove me wrong. I never said those where the only three examples, they are just the only three I cited.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I don't have a comprehensive list of all of Batman's pressure points off to top of my head, but as luck would have it I do have a list off all of Gamoras. She got the drop on Nightthrasher and Rage (on separate occasions) and koed them with a pressure point. Then Sasquatch held Thing in a full nelson and she koed him with a pressure point, saying that it wasn't something she could do in an actual fight. That's it.

Oh I seee so were getting into a semantical debate about what a pressure point attack is? So now were trying to redefine it? Pathetic.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

P.S. I don't think I've missed any votes, but if I have or have made any mistakes then let me know/repost them.

Yeah you missed one for Punisher.

Originally posted by Konton

All for Punisher to second tier.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Why are characters like Thor, Hercules, Midnighter, Psylocke a tier lower than characters like Wonder Woman, Thanos, and Champion?

Psylocke's underrated (and there's at least a few people talking about moving her to top tier), Midnighter's very powers based (and how well he does without them varies), and Wonder Woman's very very good. Thanos is up there mainly for training Gamora, I'd say.

If you think someone's low, vote 'em up.

Originally posted by Deadline
That is a lie. I see what you did there.

http://img241.imageshack.us/i/possiblehealingfactor2aw9.jpg/

Its bloody obvious he wasn't disctracted hes not even looking at Maxam. facepalm

I'm sorry? I thought Wolverine was looking up along with Gamora. I hardly care enough about either to double check the comic book.

What did I do there exactly?

Originally posted by Q99
Psylocke's underrated (and there's at least a few people talking about moving her to top tier), Midnighter's very powers based (and how well he does without them varies), and Wonder Woman's very very good. Thanos is up there mainly for training Gamora, I'd say.

If you think someone's low, vote 'em up.

Well, I'm assuming we'd include Midnighter's fighting computer in the decision making if we include Iron Man's chi abilities in his. That should no doubt allow Midnighter to go up a tier.

Did we actually see him directly instructing her in direct hand to hand training? All I recall seeing was him standing over her as she fought a droid. He could have popped in a disc on moved on for any of the skill instruction for all we know. You'd need something more concrete than training someone who hasn't actually shown really impressive hand to hand skills to be a tier above characters like Thor or Hercules. I'm not saying that Thanos is without hand to hand skills or such (Check out the fight with Champion.).

Wonder Woman is very good. But not good enough to be a tier above someone like Thor or Hercules.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Well, I'm assuming we'd include Midnighter's fighting computer in the decision making if we include Iron Man's chi abilities in his. That should no doubt allow Midnighter to go up a tier.

Apparently we allow powers that are a result of skill, but not ones that give skill.

It's sorta murky when you get people who's power and skill are so closely intertwined.

Wonder Woman is very good. But not good enough to be a tier above someone like Thor or Hercules.

So you'd want them bumped up?

I think WW is one of the most skilled people in her tier as it is.

Kang for third tier.

What's up Rage, where the hell ya been?

The criteria is roughly

Pure skills

skill based powers i.e., massive chi manipulation

Showings/feats
respect among peers
Group consensus.

Where should Scandal Savage go?

@deadline,ODG,

Srank (much as I like him/her) has a nasty little habit of making broad generalizations and bold proclaimations. So he for example, will make a statement such as, "Dare Devil and Shang Chi are both more skilled then Iron Fist", and state it as a matter of fact, when in reality they all have feats of skill that rival one another.

His (srank) thing is that he loves him a good scan-a-thon, so eventually it turns into a contest of endurance, who can post the most scans and what not. Ultimately it amounts to a pissing contest that rarely produces a change of thought regarding said subject.

What is allowing this thread to succeed imo is that thus far we have managed to avoid scan-a-thons. Let's keep an otherwise successful thread from devolving into one.

Wow, I can't believe that Psylocke isn't getting more consideration for top tier. And I'm not even a fan of hers.

Originally posted by dmills
Wow, I can't believe that Psylocke isn't getting more consideration for top tier. And I'm not even a fan of hers.

It's more that with one slot, I think Black Panther deserve it more.

Ok. If you can show BP, without his gear, showing high levels of skill then I'm all for it. As of right now, the gear seemingly gives him his edge. Not that he isn't skilled of course.