Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy

Originally posted by Q99
She's got showings, and both Batman and Black Canary fanboy/girl her skills and technique.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Why do your posts become a wall of text when I quote you... it's weird...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
A one shot blow to the solar plexus is a little different. For one it's in the center of the torso, not at the base of the neck, which makes it much less exposed and much harder to exploit. I'm not going to one shot someone by hitting them in the solar plexus, I don't even think I've ever seen that happen in a MMA fight (or at least I can remember it off the top of my head), which puts it outside the realm of something normal person could potentially do.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Normally, it just winds someone. Clearly, it is an example of Gamora attacking a weak spot in the anatomy of her opponent, but like I said, I don't think that is enough to constitute the classification of it being a pressure point. If pressure points are a qualification of the upper echelon of skilled fighters in comicdom, then I don't a chop to the brain stem qualifies.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I don't know, maybe I could, I'm just not going to try because it doesn't matter. She has more pressure point feats as a percentage of her overall appearances? Maybe... but so what? What does that mean? What point are you trying to make?

EDIT: Of course, I fully expect to have batdude123 mention a fighter who was nailed in the neck vertebrae now during an MMA match.

uhuh

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
EDIT: Of course, I fully expect to have batdude123 mention a fighter who was nailed in the neck vertebrae now during an MMA match.

uhuh

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Either of them ever admit that Black Canary is as good as they are?

Hm, not in so many words, but when Canary scored a hit Diana had to reassure her it was real, not a free strike, and that Dinah underrated herself.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Either of them ever admit that Black Canary is as good as they are? Magic. Finding and nailing a "weak spot" of a virtually invulnerable character who matches PG Drax by using a precise shot on someone's neck vertebrae is a pressure point attack. I find it to be no different, and I imagine much harder to accomplish in the middle of a fight, than nailing someone's solar plexus. You actually have to manage to get through their defenses to position yourself behind the opponent. And I've never seen someone precisely jab the back of someone's neck in an MMA fight. She used the butt-end of a long axe's pole to nail a "weak spot" that she couldn't find before in her fights against Maxam. It's not like it was a wrecklessly, sloppy chop to the general neck area. That in 30% of her fights, she uses pressure point attacks (6/20). That in 20% of her fights, she one-shots the opponent with pressure point attacks (4/20). Neither Batman, nor Daredevil use pressure points in 30% of their fights (or 1 out of 3)... and they definitely don't one-shot 20% of their opponents (or 1 out of 5) with pressure point attacks. Gamora, much like Mantis, is literally defined by her adeptness in martial arts (despite the gaggle of other powers they each possess). Her strength doesn't diminish that. And her strength especially shouldn't serve as an excuse to dismiss it entirely.

EDIT: Of course, I fully expect to have batdude123 mention a fighter who was nailed in the neck vertebrae now during an MMA match.

uhuh

Stupid wall of teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeext! 🙁

Oracle said Canary was better better than Bruce in h2h. IMO she was talking out of her ass and Gail Simone just has a lady boner for Dinah.

She "found" a weak spot that would exist on any humanoid with a brain and spinal cord. It's no big shakes. His eyes, throat and testicles are likely weak spots also. It doesn't take a super MA to figure that out, someone who isn't functionally retarded.

The solar plexus is a cluster of nerves near the spinal cord inside the abdomen. The brain stem on the other hand is much closer to the surface. The two are completely different. It is much easier to exploit the frailty of the back of the neck for a ko or fatality, than it would be to do the same with the solar plexus (which isn't something I'm sure is even possible realistically speaking anyway).

It is illegal to punch someone in the back of the head or spinal column in MMA, so I imagine that might have something to do with you not seeing it often. It is incredibly dangerous, you can easily kill or paralysis someone with those types of attacks. Hence the rule. Body shots on the other hand are fine. So once again, there is a difference between the two.

She one shots people she isn't fighting with pressure points. If you want to say that you think Gamora could potentially one shot Batman by blinding siding him when they aren't fighting go a head, but thats not the same thing as being more skilled than Batman. Dropping Rage, and Night Thrasher by getting the drop on them isn't the same as doing it during a fight, and neither is dropping Thing while Sasquatch is holding him in a full nelson. Batman one shotted Guy Gardener with a cheap shot, it's not like that is how a real fight between the two of them would play out, is it? Stop ignoring the context of the examples. None of Gamora's pressure point feats are an indication that she is as skilled as Batman, and nothing she has done indicates they are something she can replicate during actual combat, in fact... she has said her self that she couldn't.

Black Canary admitted during Simone's run that she wasn't Batman level. Sure, Canary's had training since then, but i don't see it putting her on that level. Thats not a slight against Dinah; Batman is just that f*cking good. Oracle is just plain wrong, imo.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
She "found" a weak spot that would exist on any humanoid with a brain and spinal cord. It's no big shakes. His eyes, throat and testicles are likely weak spots also. It doesn't take a super MA to figure that out, someone who isn't functionally retarded.

The solar plexus is a cluster of nerves near the spinal cord inside the abdomen. The brain stem on the other hand is much closer to the surface. The two are completely different. It is much easier to exploit the frailty of the back of the neck for a ko or fatality, than it would be to do the same with the solar plexus (which isn't something I'm sure is even possible realistically speaking anyway).

I was thinking about the nerve cluster behind the sternum, not the solar plexus. Sorry for the confusion.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It is illegal to punch someone in the back of the head or spinal column in MMA, so I imagine that might have something to do with you not seeing it often. It is incredibly dangerous, you can easily kill or paralysis someone with those types of attacks. Hence the rule. Body shots on the other hand are fine. So once again, there is a difference between the two.

She one shots people she isn't fighting with pressure points. If you want to say that you think Gamora could potentially one shot Batman by blinding siding him when they aren't fighting go a head, but thats not the same thing as being more skilled than Batman. Dropping Rage, and Night Thrasher by getting the drop on them isn't the same as doing it during a fight, and neither is dropping Thing while Sasquatch is holding him in a full nelson. Batman one shotted Guy Gardener with a cheap shot, it's not like that is how a real fight between the two of them would play out, is it? Stop ignoring the context of the examples. None of Gamora's pressure point feats are an indication that she is as skilled as Batman, and nothing she has done indicates they are something she can replicate during actual combat, in fact... she has said her self that she couldn't.

She dropped over-sized aliens who ambushed her when she was 15, pre-cosmic makeover, pre-Warlock upgrade, pre-bionics. She used a pressure point attack against Maxam. She used a pressure point attack against Thanos. Frankly, grasping onto when Gamora professed to Sasquatch that she couldn't use a pressure point attack against a far weaker, far less durable, slower, less skilled brick like Thing isn't gaining you any traction with me. We both know, that if you believed she used a pressure point on Maxam, that the Thing comment would mean spit. So this whole context angle you're insisting on me is invariably off-point. Because your argument essentially hinges almost entirely (again) on your arbitrary dismissal of an on-panel feat.

Gamora is still largely defined by her skill. And I'm not talking about general labels like "most dangerous woman in the universe."

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I've seen people hit people in the back of the head in boxing numerous times, let alone in MMA. And it's far from accidental. In any case, the point remains, what's seen in MMA or not isn't exactly the most cogent thing to turn to when deciding whether something takes comic book martial arts skill. I wasn't into MMA when I first read that issue of Warlock and the Infinity Watch. And I never questioned that it was a pressure point. It plainly appeared to be one back then. That didn't change when I started watching MMA.

Granted, but there's a reason why strikes to the back of the head are illegal in both boxing and MMA.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Maxam isn't exactly just any humanoid. People's chins tend to be weak spots and PG Drax nailed him with an uppercut that didn't even give him pause. For the most part, he didn't even grunt in pain against PG Drax.

I was thinking about the nerve cluster behind the sternum, not the solar plexus. Sorry for the confusion. I've seen people hit people in the back of the head in boxing numerous times, let alone in MMA. And it's far from accidental. In any case, the point remains, what's seen in MMA or not isn't exactly the most cogent thing to turn to when deciding whether something takes comic book martial arts skill. I wasn't into MMA when I first read that issue of Warlock and the Infinity Watch. And I never questioned that it was a pressure point. It plainly appeared to be one back then. That didn't change when I started watching MMA.

She dropped over-sized aliens who ambushed her when she was 15, pre-cosmic makeover, pre-Warlock upgrade, pre-bionics. She used a pressure point attack against Maxam. She used a pressure point attack against Thanos. Frankly, grasping onto when Gamora professed to Sasquatch that she couldn't use a pressure point attack against a far weaker, far less durable, slower, less skilled brick like Thing isn't gaining you any traction with me. We both know, that if you believed she used a pressure point on Maxam, that the Thing comment would mean spit. So this whole context angle you're insisting on me is invariably off-point. Because your argument essentially hinges almost entirely (again) on your arbitrary dismissal of an on-panel feat.

Gamora is still largely defined by her skill. And I'm not talking about general labels like "most dangerous woman in the universe."

His anatomy is still what we would consider baseline human. Heart in his chest pumping blood to the rest of his body, lungs, brain, the whole package is human standard as most comic characters are. Yeah the chin is a weak spot, especially if you catch some one of guard. I remember when I was in high school some kid a few towns over who was getting bullied pretty hard punched one of the guys bullying him once in chin and killed him. He severed his spinal cord, or something. But, I wouldn't call that a pressure point. Would you?

Obviously people have hit their opponent in the back of the head during fights, but it isn't something they are supposed to do. It's illegal, you lose points and matches that way. It happens from time to time to be sure, but all sorts of crazy shit happens some times. Sometimes Mike Tyson bites off someones ear. Still blows to the back of the head are illegale, body shots are not.

Anyway, I still don't think it is a pressure point. That isn't to detract from its effectiveness though. A well placed blow can end a fight, but I don't think every well placed blow immediately qualifies as a pressure point. Exploiting an obvious weak point in human anatomy and a pressure point attack are two different things. Shang-Chi tapping two fingers against the back of his opponent's hand and koing them. That is a pressure point. Hitting someone in the back of the neck or the throat or the groin or the temple is just good business practice when you are fighting for your life, but they don't qualify as pressure points as far as I'm concerned.

Gamora's upgrades made her more durable and increased her strength, they didn't increase her skill or her speed, so for the sake of this discussion her upgrades don't factor in a whole lot. Her most note worthy pressure point feats don't take place during combat, and she hasn't show cased the ability to successfully employ presser point and nerve cluster attacks during an actual fight. Maybe she will next month, but as it stands right now she hasn't. Hitting Thanos with a pressure point during a spar isn't an indication that it would be something she could come close to replicate during an actual fight. Other than that she hit an alien in the throat and Maxam in the brain steam, both things I don't classify as pressure point attacks. To date she hasn't shown the ability to use pressure points during combat, and she has said she couldn't to both Thing and Cyclops. To say that should could come in and drop Batman with a pressure point is pure speculatory during a fight, because it is not something she has shown her self capable of. We aren't here to theory craft about what she could potentially do, but make a judgment based on what she has done and she hasn't done anything to place her on the same level as the rest of the first tier MAs let alone above.

Originally posted by Deadline
Yeah you missed one for Punisher.

It occurred after my last update of the proposed changes and votes. 😐

Originally posted by Q99

Apparently? Maybe? My preference was not counting chi stuff and keeping Danny at top tier.

is there a cap for the amount of top tier spots still? Becuase I firmly believe there should be a cap for every class but most certainly for top tier. I also think 2nd tier should not be so much larger then fourth and third tier. It also has huge gaps between the skill differences between the upper and low 2nd tier fighters and many should be dropped to third tier.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
is there a cap for the amount of top tier spots still? Becuase I firmly believe there should be a cap for every class but most certainly for top tier. I also think 2nd tier should not be so much larger then fourth and third tier. It also has huge gaps between the skill differences between the upper and low 2nd tier fighters and many should be dropped to third tier.

The Uber and Cosmic tiers have never been capped per se, they were just naturally limited by the sparsity of those who would actually qualify to be considered above top tier.

The second, third and fourth tiers aren't restricted. I don't personally see that they need to be but there should probably be some swap of some characters between the two - although I'm not proposing changes, just tracking them.

Also, I think the fourth tier generally remains small because people usually don't propose an addition to the tier unless they have at least a reasonable grasp of the martial arts. The fourth tier would probably be huge if any character with the most basic of martial arts skill was included.

I'd suggest you propose moving down some of the seconds if you think they don't deserve to be there, I guess.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Black Canary admitted during Simone's run that she wasn't Batman level. Sure, Canary's had training since then, but i don't see it putting her on that level. Thats not a slight against Dinah; Batman is just that f*cking good. Oracle is just plain wrong, imo.

Yea, I think how Simone portrays her it's pretty clear that Batman and Shiva are better. Dinah's really good and could give either serious fights, but they're higher in the tier.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, I think how Simone portrays her it's pretty clear that Batman and Shiva are better. Dinah's really good and could give either serious fights, but they're higher in the tier.

aye, exactly.

I think Comedian should be Third Tier.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
His anatomy is still what we would consider baseline human. Heart in his chest pumping blood to the rest of his body, lungs, brain, the whole package is human standard as most comic characters are. Yeah the chin is a weak spot, especially if you catch some one of guard. I remember when I was in high school some kid a few towns over who was getting bullied pretty hard punched one of the guys bullying him once in chin and killed him. He severed his spinal cord, or something. But, I wouldn't call that a pressure point. Would you?

Obviously people have hit their opponent in the back of the head during fights, but it isn't something they are supposed to do. It's illegal, you lose points and matches that way. It happens from time to time to be sure, but all sorts of crazy shit happens some times. Sometimes Mike Tyson bites off someones ear. Still blows to the back of the head are illegale, body shots are not.

I'm not arguing about the legitimacy of rabbit punches. I've been on the receiving end. Instant knee buckling. Didn't matter how angry the guy I was fighting was, he was instantly concerned. I know firsthand how bad it is. Doesn't change the fact that Gamora wasn't swinging for the upper deck wildly when she did it. It was precise, measured, and a clear result of her looking for a vulnerability on a virtually invulnerable opponent.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Anyway, I still don't think it is a pressure point. That isn't to detract from its effectiveness though. A well placed blow can end a fight, but I don't think every well placed blow immediately qualifies as a pressure point. Exploiting an obvious weak point in human anatomy and a pressure point attack are two different things. Shang-Chi tapping two fingers against the back of his opponent's hand and koing them. That is a pressure point. Hitting someone in the back of the neck or the throat or the groin or the temple is just good business practice when you are fighting for your life, but they don't qualify as pressure points as far as I'm concerned.

Gamora's upgrades made her more durable and increased her strength, they didn't increase her skill or her speed, so for the sake of this discussion her upgrades don't factor in a whole lot. Her most note worthy pressure point feats don't take place during combat, and she hasn't show cased the ability to successfully employ presser point and nerve cluster attacks during an actual fight. Maybe she will next month, but as it stands right now she hasn't. Hitting Thanos with a pressure point during a spar isn't an indication that it would be something she could come close to replicate during an actual fight. Other than that she hit an alien in the throat and Maxam in the brain steam, both things I don't classify as pressure point attacks. To date she hasn't shown the ability to use pressure points during combat, and she has said she couldn't to both Thing and Cyclops. To say that should could come in and drop Batman with a pressure point is pure speculatory during a fight, because it is not something she has shown her self capable of. We aren't here to theory craft about what she could potentially do, but make a judgment based on what she has done and she hasn't done anything to place her on the same level as the rest of the first tier MAs let alone above.

I wasn't referring to her upgrades. I was referring to how most of her appearances are defined by her skill. Not her power. How you justify translating the one-shot pressure pointing of Thing = getting embarrassed by Batman's skills is all the theory-crafting one needs. No wonder you won't tolerate the notion that others might use it as you liberally participate in it enough for the both of us. I'm just looking at the comic. Plain presentation of.

I think Mr. Terrific (Holt) should be second tier, myself.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I think Mr. Terrific (Holt) should be second tier, myself.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I think Mr. Terrific (Holt) should be second tier, myself.

Not a freaking chance.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Agreed. Isn't he an expert in something like 14 styles of martial arts?

Six.

So, wouldn't that make him more than just "Highly Skilled" in terms of martial arts? People tend to forget he was a legitimate Olympian decathelete.