Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy

Originally posted by Spire
For tier between 2nd and 3rd 😄

Originally posted by batdude123
When you've got guys like Lobo, Loki, Aquaman, Thor, Beta Ray Bill, Doctor Doom, Hercules, and Kalibak in the third tier, you bet your ass.

Speaking of Kalibak...

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/villains/ManOfSteel116a.jpg

But seriously I'm still on the fence about Superman in third. Pressure points are great, as is brawling, but how much of it is Superman being skilled and how much of it is him being faster (and a fair bit stronger) than Kalibak? I don't think you can use a fist-fight as an indicator of tier three skill personally.

His defeat of Starfire is impressive, I'll say that much.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
But seriously I'm still on the fence about Superman in third. Pressure points are great, as is brawling, but how much of it is Superman being skilled and how much of it is him being faster (and a fair bit stronger) than Kalibak? I don't think you can use a fist-fight as an indicator of tier three skill personally.

Didn't see Superman use super speed in his fight(s) with Kalibak.

Also, being stronger is great, but totally worthless if you can't land a blow. Bob Sapp is stronger than Mirko Cro Cop, but still got bitched nonetheless.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
His defeat of Starfire is impressive, I'll say that much.

And Maxima?

Originally posted by batdude123
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Speed/combat/superman159b.jpg

Edit.

Originally posted by Deadline
That in itself isn't enough.

It's enough for Gamora do be Cosmic tier though? 😎

*Is very close to asking for Thor to be moved to the 4th Tier and for scans to be shown justifying his current placement*

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It's enough for Gamora do be Cosmic tier though? 😎

Don't be upset that Gamora is well above Wolverine in this tier section... This is something that most of us already have known for awhile but seeing it in black and white just reinforces our views.

Originally posted by batdude123
Didn't see Superman use super speed in his fight(s) with Kalibak.

Also, being stronger is great, but totally worthless if you can't land a blow. Bob Sapp is stronger than Mirko Cro Cop, but still got bitched nonetheless.

And Maxima?

I do like the Maxima fight and Starfire one as well.

However, you mention being stronger is worthless unless you can land a blow... well of course he can land a blow because he's that much faster than most anybody in h2h combat. Whether he uses super speed or not... he's still fast with super quick reflexes and will land blows and thus his strrength will come into play. However, that doesn't mean he's more skilled.

Also if there is another tier between 3 and 4 I would have no issue with him being there. As stated before... I think some should be moved down a tier to supes level not supes up.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It's enough for Gamora do be Cosmic tier though?

In any case, I support Superman moving to third tier. I think most of the objectors aren't arguing that he isn't at least close to it, just that certain people in the third tier would kick the crap out of him all things considered equal. So if he is that close, then just consider him to be the bottom of the third tier?

Also, Batgirl (Barbara Gordon) should be in the 3rd tier? Yeah, she's crippled now, but I could see her tooling a whole bunch of people in her wheelchair.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It's enough for Gamora do be Cosmic tier though? 😎

Um shes got other stuff apart from that. Shes clearly good at other stuff thats why she was stalemating Wolverine. 😐

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I do like the Maxima fight and Starfire one as well.

However, you mention being stronger is worthless unless you can land a blow... well of course he can land a blow because he's that much faster than most anybody in h2h combat. Whether he uses super speed or not... he's still fast with super quick reflexes and will land blows and thus his strrength will come into play. However, that doesn't mean he's more skilled.

Also if there is another tier between 3 and 4 I would have no issue with him being there. As stated before... I think some should be moved down a tier to supes level not supes up.

Not picking on you in particular, but I love how Superman's fighting skills get overlooked and are attributed to his stats.

Then I see all the Superman-level brawlers that I mentioned before in tiers above him, DESPITE him having more impressive skill showings, and it makes me cringe.

The hate is strong here.

^ When you have someone who's three and a half times stronger than Spiderman and mastery of 83.4% of the universe's martial arts isn't enough to be considered damn skilled, then yea, Superman's kinda sh1t out of luck on that front. Accordingly, by being 1000x stronger than Gamora, Superman would need to learn 83,400% of the universe's martial arts to be near the top of this list.

Superman better get to practicing. He's got a long way to go. duryes

🙁

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Last I checked, Gamora's the one who's been documented to have equal mastery of armed and unarmed techniques from AT LEAST 83.4% of known space faring cultures.

And yet all shes done is pressure point two C-String losers out, the Thing while he was restrained by Sasquatch and Thanos in a sparing match. Oh, so you don't start crying, she also she hit an alien in the neck and Maxim in the back of the neck... but those aren't pressure points. 😎

If she actual had some feats that suggested she was on equal skill level as the top tiers MAs then you could maybe infer that based on the such statements that she would logically be the superior MA. As it stands though you have peak human MAs with far superior feats of skill vs. a statement of her supposed skill level. I'm sorry but feats are going to win every time. I don't care what she supposedly knows, if she isn't going to be shown using it ever its all just speculations. The top tier MAs have better skill feats, so they are more skilled. 😈

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Last I checked, Gamora's the one who's been documented to have equal mastery of armed and unarmed techniques from AT LEAST 83.4% of known space faring cultures.

In any case, I support Superman moving to third tier. I think most of the objectors aren't arguing that he isn't at least close to it, just that certain people in the third tier would kick the crap out of him all things considered equal. So if he is that close, then just consider him to be the bottom of the third tier?

Also, Batgirl (Barbara Gordon) should be in the 3rd tier? Yeah, she's crippled now, but I could see her tooling a whole bunch of people in her wheelchair.

Batgirl (Barbara) would not be 3rd, but Oracle (Barbara) possibly is.

Yes, she's a more skilled fighter as Oracle. Richard Dragon trained her, and there was a time when Tarantula III attacked her and later commented that she would've been in major trouble had not Nightwing gotten in Bab's way.

^ I can easily see -- and I'm pretty sure I have seen -- her in her wheelchair and giving people hell. Even people in the list. And that's just a measure of how well she's able to defend herself, it doesn't measure how skilled she actually is, despite how inhibited she is. A sick Karate Kid is still Karate Kid.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And yet all shes done is pressure point two C-String losers out, the Thing while he was restrained by Sasquatch and Thanos in a sparing match. Oh, so you don't start crying, she also she hit an alien in the neck and Maxim in the back of the neck... but those aren't pressure points.

If she actual had some feats that suggested she was on equal skill level as the top tiers MAs then you could [b]maybe infer that based on the such statements that she would logically be the superior MA. As it stands though you have peak human MAs with far superior feats of skill vs. a statement of her supposed skill level. I'm sorry but feats are going to win every time. I don't care what she supposedly knows, if she isn't going to be shown using it ever its all just speculations. The top tier MAs have better skill feats, so they are more skilled.[/B]

Show me all these other folks other than Gamora, Mantis, and Karate Kid who (without anywhere near matching strength), used pressure points on virtually invulnerable, and incalculably strong foes on the level of Maxam.

I am open to you arguing by presenting evidence for your case. This would be a refreshing change from your current (and past) arguments which simply and arbitrarily dismiss evidence presented. The stage is yours.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I can easily see -- and I'm pretty sure I have seen -- her in her wheelchair and giving people hell. Even people in the list. And that's just a measure of how well she's able to defend herself, it doesn't measure how skilled she actually is, despite how inhibited she is. A sick Karate Kid is still Karate Kid.

Other feats: She beat up Spy Smasher, a much larger and well-trained woman, who merely had a wounded leg but was otherwise fine.

She beat Cassandra Cain in stick fighting, when Cass looked away, sure, but Cass was all shocked by it 🙂

When the senator had her kidnapped, she took out five agents, all big guys and professional by the looks of it.

Most 3rd tiers'll beat her due to mobility advantage, but yea, she's got skills.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And yet, she still has mastery of 83.4% of the universe's armed and unarmed techniques.

Show me all these other folks other than Gamora, Mantis, and Karate Kid who without matching strength, used pressure points on invulnerable foes on the level of Maxam.

I am open to you arguing by presenting evidence for your case. This would be a refreshing change from your current (and past) arguments which simply and arbitrarily dismiss evidence presented. The stage is yours.

And Sentry has the power of a "Billion Exploding Suns" and he stalemate Galactus. Talk is cheap without something back it. Champion tells people he has mastered countless fighting styles from across the Universe since time began... and yet all he does is box. How skilled Gamora is allegedly and how skilled she actually is are two different things. One is based on feats, one is just talk. I don't think anecdotal evidence is enough to warrant a spot in the Cosmic tier. I'm open to the possibility that Gamora is possibly a Cosmic Level MA who just hasn't been afforded to opportunity to showcase her skill yet, but until she does I don't think it makes sense to give her such a high position based on a speculative analysis on what her theoretical skill level might be.

Show me Gamora using pressure points on invulnerable foes on the level of Maxam, first. 😎

Anyway, off the top of my Batman used a pressure point on Wonder Woman. It was a sparing match, not something he could replicate in an actual fight (which considering Gamora's feats are all similarly irrelevant to an actual fight isn't such a big deal) but still shows it is something he can do effectively against Wonder Woman's durability.

Originally posted by batdude123
Not picking on you in particular, but I love how Superman's fighting skills get overlooked and are attributed to his stats.

Then I see all the Superman-level brawlers that I mentioned before in tiers above him, DESPITE him having more impressive skill showings, and it makes me cringe.

The hate is strong here.

I understand your point and agree with the people you mentioned being around the same ballpark and him even being better than some you listed. No arguments there. I was simply point out that is strength does matter. For example if he was to fight Gamora…. would you say it's his skill that would get him the victory over her.. or his speed and strength? That is the point I was making. Just because he beats somebody… doesn't mean he's more skilled in MA than them. Speaking of which… what MA training or skills has he mastered?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I understand your point and agree with the people you mentioned being around the same ballpark and him even being better than some you listed. No arguments there. I was simply point out that is strength does matter. For example if he was to fight Gamora…. would you say it's his skill that would get him the victory over her.. or his speed and strength? That is the point I was making. Just because he beats somebody… doesn't mean he's more skilled in MA than them. Speaking of which… what MA training or skills has he mastered?

I'm not trying to claim that he's anywhere near Gamora in terms of skill (which nobody in his right mind would), but what's shown is shown, and he's shown as an incredibly skilled fighter.

He's had 1000's years of experience fighting (something which is always used in defense of Thor), has trained under both Batman and Wonder Woman, and has mastered Torquasm-Rao (a Kryptonian martial art even Batman struggled with).

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And Sentry has the power of a "Billion Exploding Suns" and he stalemate Galactus.

You can't tell the difference between hyperbole and literal meanings?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Talk is cheap without something back it. Champion tells people he has mastered countless fighting styles from across the Universe since time began... and yet all he does is box. How skilled Gamora is allegedly and how skilled she actually is are two different things. One is based on feats, one is just talk. I don't think anecdotal evidence is enough to warrant a spot in the Cosmic tier. I'm open to the possibility that Gamora is possibly a Cosmic Level MA who just hasn't been afforded to opportunity to showcase her skill yet, but until she does I don't think it makes sense to give her such a high position based on a speculative analysis on what her theoretical skill level [b]might be.

Show me Gamora using pressure points on invulnerable foes on the level of Maxam, first. 😎 [/B]

So Gamora just boxes does she? Like I said she was stalemating Wolverine AND has extremely good pressure point feats.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Anyway, off the top of my Batman used a pressure point on Wonder Woman. It was a sparing match, not something he could replicate in an actual fight (which considering Gamora's feats are all similarly irrelevant to an actual fight isn't such a big deal) but still shows it is something he can do effectively against Wonder Woman's durability.

WW isn't even bulletproof so that could explain it.