Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy

This is ridiculous; I ask a guy to validate his assertions and get called a troll for my efforts. I'm not ignoring anything; I have already torn every single scan you have posted to shreds by factoring in one simple equation... His powers! Superman is absolutely garbage in h2h without his powers.

Posting a scan of him using pressure points on Batman is irrelevant to the topic at hand because there is no way in hell he'd be able to land a single shot on Batman, sans his powers. The same logic applies to the Wonder Woman example you brought up; if both are powerless, she destroys him ten times outta ten.

Please, since you're obviously a fan of posting scans, show me one where a powerless Superman has beat anyone of note in a h2h fight... surely, multiple examples of this must exist for you to be so adamant in your stance.

Originally posted by batdude123
K, either you're really this dumb, or you're just being dense on purpose. I'm guessing the former, though I wouldn't rule out the latter.

Wow, strawmanning already? Can't say I'm surprised.

Here's a hint: either address the point, or don't continue the argument.

Once again, more strawmanning! Look at you go!!!!

Diverting attention away from the discussion doesn't make you look good, Deadline.

Just letting you know.

I'm using those to show that pressure point strikes still work on those without piercing vulnerability, so your entire argument is moot.

You don't have a case.

Her MAGICALLY CONDITIONAL vulnerability to piercing damage has absolutely nothing to do with nerve strikes.

You're reaching for something that isn't there.

*sigh* Do you actually listen to anything anybody says?

Originally posted by marwash22
i love how it's a fact that whenever someone disagrees with you, it's to be assumed that they are mentally handicapped.

Grow up batdude.

Originally posted by Gecko4lif
Barda > Orion in h2h

Orion nearly defeated the greatest martial artist in the universe (Valkyie), so Orion > Barda.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
When everyone is special, no one is.

But they're not. Not everybody is in top tier there are still alot of people who arent in there.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

If someone is top tier they should be able to garner sufficient support for them being better than a current top tier, be it by a whisker or a mile.

If they can't why should they be elevated to stand among the other titans?

Sorry I don't quite understand what your getting at here.

Originally posted by Deadline
But they're not. Not everybody is in top tier there are still alot of people who arent in there.

If a character is truly good enough, then they should be able to gain sufficient support to be there, displacing someone else.

Originally posted by Deadline
Sorry I don't quite understand what your getting at here.

Those in the top tier (and above) are meant to be the best of the best.

If a character can't garner sufficient support to indicate they are better, however marginally better, than another top tier (assuming a full tier) then they aren't quite the creme de la creme.

They may be best of the rest, but by a hairsbreadth not quite one of the best of the best.

A hierarchy, like life, isn't necessarily meant to be "fair" like a commune. A competitive structure maintains quality.

If there's some outpouring of sentiment to uncap the top tier and let it balloon out until it has no meaning anymore then, sure, let's look into it. But as it stands, I haven't seen a mass mob taking much issue to it.

*While the ultimate and penultimate tiers are not formerly limited, they have remained self-limiting, something one should be entirely unconvinced would occur with the top tier, by virtue of characters entering those tiers needing to bypass the limited top tier. If the Uber and Cosmic tiers weren't functioning in such a way then they would also be subject to limited spacing.

So, with 7 for and only one opposed, I propose Tim is moved up in the next update.

Originally posted by marwash22
This is ridiculous; I ask a guy to validate his assertions and get called a troll for my efforts. I'm not ignoring anything; I have already torn every single scan you have posted to shreds by factoring in one simple equation... His powers! Superman is absolutely garbage in h2h without his powers.

Posting a scan of him using pressure points on Batman is irrelevant to the topic at hand because there is no way in hell he'd be able to land a single shot on Batman, sans his powers. The same logic applies to the Wonder Woman example you brought up; if both are powerless, she destroys him ten times outta ten.

Please, since you're obviously a fan of posting scans, show me one where a [b]powerless Superman has beat anyone of note in a h2h fight... surely, multiple examples of this must exist for you to be so adamant in your stance. [/B]

The point is that there are other guys in a tier higher that do not have the showings that Clark does, yet there they are... Also, you can apply 'martial skill' to someone half as powerful, slightly less powerful, equal, greater than, or even twice as powerful as you are. It doesn't matter.

That was a kryptonite possessed Batman that was beating the crap out of Supes. facepalm

Here are scans of Kal 'while powerless beating someone of note in h2h':

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/Spire84/Superman/beatingkobra1.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/Spire84/Superman/beatingkobra2.jpg

Note, isn't that the original owner of the body Clark's in inside Batman, who's only like a third tier? And he had a solid edge over Clark and was beating him handily until Clark powered through and stunned him by ramming him against the tree.

Superman won that through grit and determination while being fairly clearly beneath Kobra in HtH skill.

Batdude123

Also, in Superman 221, a holding back Superman treats an all-out Wonder Woman like she was no more than a flying Colossus (she even had her shield and dagger).

Wasn't that from For Tomorrow?

The way I remember that, she was just trying to keep him from reaching the thing that was causing vanishing, and was quite successful in doing so... until he played the "Oh look innocents in danger" card to get her to leave an opening for him to get past. I wouldn't call WW not hold back, she was trying to stop him for his own safety (which ironically makes her lack of lasso usage in favor of dagger a disadvantageous set up).

There were a few attacks, but both were basically fine at the end of the fight, it was a pure stalemate, in other words Superman couldn't get past her, until Clark uses a distraction to escape.

Originally posted by Q99
Note, isn't that the original owner of the body Clark's in inside Batman, who's only like a third tier? And he had a solid edge over Clark and was beating him handily until Clark powered through and stunned him by ramming him against the tree.

Superman won that through grit and determination while being fairly clearly beneath Kobra in HtH skill.

Wasn't that from For Tomorrow?

The way I remember that, she was just trying to keep him from reaching the thing that was causing vanishing, and was quite successful in doing so... until he played the "Oh look innocence in danger" card to get her to leave an opening. I wouldn't call WW not hold back, she was trying to stop him for his own safety (which ironically makes her lack of lasso usage in favor of dagger a disadvantageous set up).

There were a few blows and a cut, but both were basically fine at the end of the fight, it was a pure stalemate until Clark uses a distraction to escape.

Photobucket has been acting weird for me lately. Here is the second scan.

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/Spire84/Superman/beatingkobra3.jpg

The point was I showed him what he asked for.

Also, Kobra isn't 3rd tier obviously, because well Superman beat him. So probably around 4th tier if he even makes the list. Still skilled enough to pull a win from Batman.

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/Spire84/Superman/kobrabeatingbats1.jpg
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/Spire84/Superman/kobrabeatingbats2.jpg

Yes, Superman 211 For Tomorrow is where he humiliates WW.

My mistake, i forgot about the martial art based on on smashing someone into a tree. That scan clearly demonstrates a high level of fighting skill.

Originally posted by Spire

Yes, Superman 211 For Tomorrow is where he humiliates WW.

Uh, he didn't humiliate her in the least, he didn't even get a win in fighting.

He had to pull "Look, helicopter full of people about to die! Go and save them," because he couldn't get past her.

His goal was to get past her and the only way he could was a cheap trick like that which'd work on any hero. How do you call that humiliation?

Originally posted by marwash22
My mistake, i forgot about the martial art based on on smashing someone into a tree. That scan clearly demonstrates a high level of fighting skill.

It demonstrates while powerless he beat someone of high level fighting skill - which the book went out it's way to make clear.

It's also what you asked for.

Originally posted by Q99
Uh, he didn't humiliate her in the least, he didn't even get a win in fighting.

He had to pull "Look, helicopter full of people about to die! Go and save them," because he couldn't get past her.

His goal was to get past her and the only way he could was a cheap trick like that which'd work on any hero. How do you call that humiliation?

Bump a WW vs Supes thread and continue there.

This thread is reserved for poeple that want to troll Clark's showings.

Originally posted by Spire
It demonstrates while powerless he beat someone of high level fighting skill - which the book went out it's way to make clear.

It's also what you asked for.

Black Panther has already beaten/stalemated captain america, one-shotted karnak, outmaneuvered wolverine (short fight), stalemated daredevil, and ironfist. how much does he have to do before it's apparent he's in their tier?

BP to top tier

I think the Kobra scan is a good one- it shows that Clark is disadvantaged against someone at Kobra's level (the 'can beat Batman if Batman's hands are tied' level) in skill, but with some luck and grit can manage. That's very 4th-tier IMO.

Originally posted by Spire
Bump a WW vs Supes thread and continue there.

This thread is reserved for poeple that want to troll Clark's showings.

Well, I'm just saying if someone wants to bring it up as an example of Clark's martial arts skills, he neither won, nor did either do much martial arts, so it's not much of an example.

That's all.

Originally posted by Q99
I think the Kobra scan is a good one- it shows that Clark is disadvantaged against someone at Kobra's level (the 'can beat Batman if Batman's hands are tied' level) in skill, but with some luck and grit can manage. That's very 4th-tier IMO.

Well, I'm just saying if someone wants to bring it up as an example of Clark's martial arts skills, he neither won, nor did either do much martial arts, so it's not much of an example.

That's all.

Originally posted by Trackz
Black Panther has already beaten/stalemated captain america, one-shotted karnak, outmaneuvered wolverine (short fight), stalemated daredevil, and ironfist. how much does he have to do before it's apparent he's in their tier?

BP to top tier

Because it's not that clear to people how much of BP's fighting prowess is purely his skill, rather than his superhuman stats and vibranium weave suit.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Because it's not that clear to people how much of BP's fighting prowess is purely his skill, rather than his superhuman stats and vibranium weave suit.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Notes
-The following changes or additions will be made in the next update, unless there's opposition/change in votes: Savant to second, Tim Drake to second, Gamora to uber, Canary to second.

-The following will be defeated unless there's more votes in favor: Drakon to second, Batgirl to uber. Also srank, I'm assuming you're dropping Psylocke replacing Taskmaster in favor of her taking the vacant slot.

-I should note that movement of either Canary or Drakon down without replacement will simply result in a vacant DC top tier slot.

-There is a vacant Marvel slot in the top tier.

-Where are people proposing moving Adam Warlock to, if they are proposing moving him?

-Beyond nomination for the Marvel top tier slot [b]can people weigh in on the huge list below, before we move onto any new additions or changes for a bit? Particularly the Old Proposed Changes. I've taken the liberty of casting a few votes on some of the changes I agree with (although in general I'm avoiding voting or nominating changes, as the facilitator of the thread.)

Proposed Additions' Entry Points
Nemesis (Charis Adrastea) to second tier: 1 [Style] /
Kanto to second tier: 2 [Omega, comicfan] /
Mera to third: 1 [Omega] / 1 [comicfan]
Tombstone to fourth: 1 [Omega] /
Juggernaut to fourth: 1 [Omega] /
Faora to second:1 [Omega] /
Catman to second: 1 [srank] /
Savant (BoP) to second: 3 [marwash, Pr, Q99] /
Kang to third: 1 [Bentley] /
King Snake to second: [marwash] /

Old Proposed Changes
Jubilee to third: 3 [Cresh, Q99, Konton] / 4 [llag, Nataku, Blanket, Style]
Kingpin to second: 6 [Ize, V, jrod, srank, capt, Accel] / 8 [marwash, dmills, Soljer, llag, Macoy, Nataku, Blanket, Style]
Moon Knight to second: 6 [dmills, Ize, llagrok, Fake McCoy, Deadline, Mungi] / 5 [Soljer, capt, endrict, Blanket, YFZ]
Midnighter to second: 3 [Ize, Soljer, Blanket] / 4 [Style, endrict, srank, dmills]

New Proposed Changes
Gamora to uber: 10 [Spire, batdude, marwash, Ize, dmills, Omega, Konton, Q99, jalek, srank] / 7 [Kurupt, galactisishere, Tyrant, ODG, Blanket, Smurph, SuperiorTech]
Constantine Drakon to second: 1 [Q99] / 5 [Squire, srank, batdude, Phil, Kurupt]
or Drakon to uber: 1 [Q99] / 1 [Pr]
Tim Drake to second: 7 [Spire, Kurupt, Phil, batdude, X, Pr, MM] / 1 [Konton]
Black Canary to second: 7 [Spire, Kurupt, MM, batdude, Omega, Pr, ODG] / 4 [srank, Konton, Omega, Q99]
Ares (Marvel) to second: 2 [ODG, comicfan] / 1 [jalek]
Hercules to second: 2 [Kurupt, comicfan] / 3 [Spire, batdude, jalek]
Gorgon to uber: 1 [dmills] /
Drax to second: 2 [dmills, AlmightyK] / 1 [Kurupt]
Superman to third: 5 [Spire, Phil, batdude, Pr, ODG] / 6 [RAGE, Kurupt, Blanket, MM, marwash, Omega]
Punisher to second: 4 [YFZ, Deadline, Konton, MM] / 5 [Kurupt, marwash, batdude, Q99, iceman]
Batgirl (Cass) to uber: 3 [Spire, Phil, Omega] / 6 [Kurupt, MM, marwash, batdude, ODG, Konton]
Twelve Brothers to third: 1 [Q99] / 1 [Konton]
Thor to second: 1 [RAGE] / 3 [Spire, batdude, marwash]
Oracle to third: 2 [ODG, Q99] / 0

Nominations for the Marvel Top Tier slot:
Black Panther: 1 [Q99] /
Psylocke: 2 [dmills, srank] /
Sabretooth: 1 [dmills] /
Mr X: 1 [srank] / 1 [dmills]
X-23: 1 [Konton] /

P.S. I don't think I've missed any votes, but if I have or have made any mistakes then let me know/repost them. [/B]

Wait wait wait.. what is the determination for someone being moved. It was my understanding as with the old Tiers thread..... that for someone to be moved or taken off a tier... there had to be a good majority to do so. Gamora is being moved by a 10 for and 7 against vote. How on earth is that a good majority? So are you honestly moving people based on a simple majority vote. So one person could vote for something and if nobody is against it... it passes. What the hell is going on with this voting process?