Originally posted by Q99
I don't think I've seen anything from Blue Devil that suggests third, I tend to see him as a fourth.I think people are forgetting that *fourth is good too*.
.....ugh, now I have to go through all my comic boxes, find his appearences, scan the feats and post them.
For this sir, you can kindly go **** yourself.
Yeah, not much for now, but more is coming.
Originally posted by Martian_mind
.....ugh, now I have to go through all my comic boxes, find his appearences, scan the feats and post them.For this sir, you can kindly go **** yourself.
You don't *have* to, I don't remember well enough to actually place a vote, I'm just saying that's my impression 🙂
I've also noticed a general lack of interest in letting anyone be down in fourth.
Originally posted by Q99
You don't *have* to, I don't remember well enough to actually place a vote, I'm just saying that's my impression 🙂I've also noticed a general lack of interest in letting anyone be down in fourth.
IMO, the lack of interest in Fourth is that it started out as the tier for people who weren't exactly skiled and trained, but had through experience gained a working knowledge of how to fight.
Yeah, I do. Can't make the point without evidence.
Originally posted by Martian_mind
IMO, the lack of interest in Fourth is that it started out as the tier for people who weren't exactly skiled and trained, but had through experience gained a working knowledge of how to fight.
It includes people who still have good amounts of training/skill.
Falcon, Gambit, Hawkgirl, Blink, Batwoman, Misty Knight, Storm. These people are not unskilled/untrained fighters by any means.
A working knowledge of fighting just via experience would be more like 5th.
Originally posted by batdude123
Aquaman, Loki, Lobo, Thor, Hercules, Dr. Doom, Kalibak, Orion (who's somehow 2nd tier), Beta Ray Bill, etc.
Wait wait wait... as I've stated before I think Supes are comparable and even better than some you name... However, Hercules certainly isn't one of them. Are you honestly saying supes is as skilled as Herc is MA and h2h fighting?
See, this is EXACTLY the type of shit I was talking about.
Smh... facepalm
Originally posted by Q99
Ehhhh... no. Those people are significantly more melee skill focused than Superman, especially Aquaman
Why? Are Arthur's punches somehow more effective than Superman's just because he's a "WARYA KEENG!!!"?
Hell, Batman punked his ass in h2h despite his ridiculously inferior stats.
There's no justification for him being a tier above Superman. Next.
Originally posted by Q99
Herc
Hercules is basically a brawler with some wrestling skills. While that may get others wet, it doesn't impress me enough to think he belongs in a tier above Superman.
Originally posted by Q99
Thor
Right, because like, he totallyz showz his martial artz skillz in his fites wit DA HULKERZZ!!!11
Honest to God, Thor's skills as a fighter are probably the most unjustifiably over-hyped of anybody on KMC. He's nothing more than a glorified brawler, and yet somehow, he's made out to be this fighting dynamo.
Originally posted by Q99
BRB.
Again, an over-glorified brawler, but because of his connection to Thor, he's somehow in a tier above Superman.
Originally posted by Q99
Loki, despite his apparent focus on magic, is a masterful combatant and recently dealt with a large group of armed and highly skilled foes who were as strong or stronger than him, largely through melee skill.
"MASTERFUL COMBATANT"???!!! Really? Somebody shows a few scans of Loki sword fighting, and everyone creams his whitey tighties. Sure, let's pretend like this isn't the same guy who's run away from physical encounters before.
This is a perfect example of what I was talking about earlier. Everybody's willing to give the benefit of the doubt to those not named "Superman." What a joke.
Originally posted by Q99
Doom's got a few good hand to hand feats unarmored like taking out a lion, which is the only reason he's not bumped down.
That's Doom's justification? Because he has a single showing where he defeats a lion? That somehow makes him a more skilled fighter than Superman?
How about when a depowered Superman took down numerous parademons? Or when a depowered Superman help take down a LORD OF CHAOS?!
These points are getting progressively worse.
Originally posted by Q99
If you think they don't deserve their spot, vote them down, and I can see arguments for doing so in some cases. I think it makes more sense than voting Superman up, because there's quite a few fourth tiers more skilled than him.
Like I said before, if you're going to try and reach in order to justify the position of the multiple combatants that I listed despite inferior feats of skill, then it makes more sense for Superman to move up rather than have all of them move down.
Originally posted by Q99
It's like, say, Green Arrow and Hawkeye and bows. If archery skill counted, they've be top tier, but only martial arts skill does. Superman has great move-at-super-speed, precisely-apply-super-strength, pin-point-target-with-super-vision, combat-flight, etc. skills, but that's something else. He can't pull off nerve hits without those powers, and I can't think of anything he's done non-powered that Batgirl/Barbara Gordon couldn't do.
Lawlz? What is it with you and marwash trying to use examples that aren't even close to being analogous to the topic at hand?
Originally posted by Q99
Superman's one of the best there is at using his powers, with only a few even coming close. His martial arts skills, however, are less-so, and a lot of his better martial arts feats are reliant on said powers, and he gets depowered often enough for us to see how good he is without them.
In spite of better feats than the above mentioned.
K.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Wait wait wait... as I've stated before I think Supes are comparable and even better than some you name... However, Hercules certainly isn't one of them. Are you honestly saying supes is as skilled as Herc is MA and h2h fighting?
I like how you're deciding to nit-pick at one of the characters I mentioned.
Regardless, I'm not willing to give a guy who's basically Thor + some wrestling ability the benefit of the doubt when Superman is being constantly dumped on in this thread.
Aquaman, Loki, Lobo, Thor, Hercules, Dr. Doom, Kalibak, Orion, Beta Ray Bill,
From this list I can see Superman as a comparable fighter with Kalibak and maybe Doom.
Maybe even slightly better.
Certainly not Aquaman, Orion and Hercules.
Aquaman is a warrior king. He fights all the time and is the military commander of an entire nation.
He has shown knowledge of the higly overated "nerve blows" since the 70's, shown his training with warriors and Batman plus it has been shown that he actually trains the elite guards of Atlantis.
If you also count weapons he has also been shown to be an excelent swordsman taking on 3 atlantian ghost warriors at once and on another instance a whole army of undead alone.
And when he fights he performs moves I have never seen Superman or Kalibak or any other brawler type perform.
As for the issue with Batman beating him in h2h that's PIS of the highest order.
It's not like Batman outmaneuvered him or something.
He took a no-hold-back punch from Aquaman to the face and he was fine. You know from the guy who can punch through steel doors and drop the Olympian.
Plus it's debatable if said issues are in continuity.
Orion has been shown to defeat the greatest martial artist in the universe using only skill, and has some fights that show his skill most notably against Darkseid.
Hercules is a master wrestler. And like it or not wrestling is a martial art.
I'm not sure about the others.
Loki seems the most iffy since I've only seen his feat in the Siege one shot.
Originally posted by Q99
Ehhhh... no. Those people are significantly more melee skill focused than Superman, especially Aquaman, Herc, Thor, and BRB.Loki, despite his apparent focus on magic, is a masterful combatant and recently dealt with a large group of armed and highly skilled foes who were as strong or stronger than him, largely through melee skill.
Doom's got a few good hand to hand feats unarmored like taking out a lion, which is the only reason he's not bumped down.
If you think they don't deserve their spot, vote them down, and I can see arguments for doing so in some cases. I think it makes more sense than voting Superman up, because there's quite a few fourth tiers more skilled than him.
He is *very* good... at applying his powers. When we see him train hard and get a skill plus, it's in using his powers in combination better and more easily.
His hand to hand ability, while reasonable, is not particularly exceptional, and when he's spent time non-powered or low-powered, he's ok but IMO quite at hope in tier four.
It's like, say, Green Arrow and Hawkeye and bows. If archery skill counted, they've be top tier, but only martial arts skill does. Superman has great move-at-super-speed, precisely-apply-super-strength, pin-point-target-with-super-vision, combat-flight, etc. skills, but that's something else. He can't pull off nerve hits without those powers, and I can't think of anything he's done non-powered that Batgirl/Barbara Gordon couldn't do.
Superman's one of the best there is at using his powers, with only a few even coming close. His martial arts skills, however, are less-so, and a lot of his better martial arts feats are reliant on said powers, and he gets depowered often enough for us to see how good he is without them.
Originally posted by batdude123
I like how you're deciding to nit-pick at [b]one of the characters I mentioned.Regardless, I'm not willing to give a guy who's basically Thor + some wrestling ability the benefit of the doubt when Superman is being constantly dumped on in this thread. [/B]
Fair enough.
I would like to point out one thing, through narration and depiction Hercules has been shown to be able to compete with Hulk and Thor because of his superior h2h skills. Not his superior strength, speed, durability but because of his skill. In my mind that makes him superior in skill to Thor.
You didn't really say anything I haven't already addressed, but oh well...
Originally posted by comicfan11
Aquaman is a warrior king.
*Looks back at my other post*
...
*Laughs*
Originally posted by comicfan11
He fights all the time and is the military commander of an entire nation.
And this is suppose to mean... what, exactly? Does Superman not fight all the time?
Originally posted by comicfan11
He has shown knowledge of the higly overated "nerve blows" since the 70's
Ever since the non-canon Pre-Crisis days, eh? Lol.
Originally posted by comicfan11
shown his training with warriors and Batman plus it has been shown that he actually trains the elite guards of Atlantis.
Again, is this suppose to even resemble a point? Superman has trained under both Batman and Wonder Woman.
Originally posted by comicfan11
And when he fights he performs moves I have never seen Superman or Kalibak or any other brawler type perform.
Such as?
Originally posted by comicfan11
As for the issue with Batman beating him in h2h that's PIS of the highest order.
It's not like Batman outmaneuvered him or something.
He took a no-hold-back punch from Aquaman to the face and he was fine. You know from the guy who can punch through steel doors and drop the Olympian.
Despite Batman taking more damage on a semi-consistent basis?
K.
Originally posted by comicfan11
Orion has been shown to defeat the greatest martial artist in the universe using only skill, and has some fights that show his skill most notably against Darkseid.
Awesome, Orion has demonstrated his uber skillz on Darkseid, AKA "Superman's punching bag."
Originally posted by comicfan11
Hercules is a master wrestler. And like it or not wrestling is a martial art.
Already acknowledged.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Fair enough.I would like to point out one thing, through narration and depiction Hercules has been shown to be able to compete with Hulk and Thor because of his superior h2h skills. Not his superior strength, speed, durability but because of his skill. In my mind that makes him superior in skill to Thor.
I don't think there's any argument Hercules is more skilled than Thor. Blood & Oath made that pretty clear.
That being said, there are levels within each tier, and Hercules isn't superior enough to be a full tier above Thor. Subsequently, I don't feel he's a tier above Superman.
Originally posted by batdude123
You didn't really say anything I haven't already addressed, but oh well...*Looks back at my other post*
...
*Laughs*
And this is suppose to mean... what, exactly? Does Superman not fight all the time?
Ever since the [b]non-canon
Pre-Crisis days, eh? Lol.Again, is this suppose to even resemble a point? Superman has trained under both Batman and Wonder Woman.
Such as?
Despite Batman taking more damage on a semi-consistent basis?
K.
Awesome, Orion has demonstrated his uber skillz on Darkseid, AKA "Superman's punching bag."
Already acknowledged.
I don't think there's any argument Hercules is more skilled than Thor. Blood & Oath made that pretty clear.
That being said, there are levels within each tier, and Hercules isn't superior enough to be a full tier above Thor. Subsequently, I don't feel he's a tier above Superman. [/B]
Whatever.
You can choose to interpret my post in whatever way you like.
IMO Superman doesn't belong in the 3rd tier.
I don't care enough to debate it while the majority seems to agree with that.
My vote stands.
