Originally posted by batdude123Well, if this aint a pot-kettle situation. Those fraudulent scans you posted are most certainly relevant to the discussed topic.
Lawlz? What is it with you and marwash trying to use examples that aren't even close to being analogous to the topic at hand?
Also, when have i done this?
Does Doom have any particularly good HtH feats other than killing a lion bare-handed, and say going HtH with Iron Man? I know he's less skilled in melee than Luke Cage. He might go down to four.
Kalibak I definitely think should be knocked down.
Omega Vision
So where do you draw the line then with weapon skill? Obviously you wouldn't say skill using a Green Lantern Ring would be MA skill even though it fits the technical/literal definition of MA but would you say that Loki's skill with a sword counts? And if so why? Weapon skill=/=h/h skill and h/h skill seems to be what counts here.
Weapon skill implies some hand to hand skill since it's similar and uses the same dodging skills and such, but really it's only HtH skill that counts (I'll note Loki did use a fair amount of unarmed in his fight with Bor's undead warriors too).
That's why Katana is down in 3rd tier when she's a first tier swordsperson. Only HtH skill ultimately counts.
All the GLs are fourth tier, or possibly lower.
Batdude123Hell, Batman punked his ass in h2h despite his ridiculously inferior stats.
There's no justification for him being a tier above Superman. Next.
Iirc, Aquaman punked Deathstroke once.
Originally posted by dmills
And speaking of Superman, where's Majestros on these tiers? And Nova for that matter. He schooled Gamora and sonned Drax afterall.😛
Nova's fighting style is so much based on high-speed flight and blasting that I think it's hard to rate, and would probably be fairly low, like tier four, without his powers.
He's a very skilled user of his powers who knows how to handle melee fighters, it's just his pure martial arts skills aren't up there.
AlmightyKfish
Wait, Falcon is in fourth?!He's been kicking ass h2h for the majority of Brubakers run on Cap...
Yea, that does strike me as off.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Come on PR... you're better than this. I know you love Superman as do many others but the facts are JUST as I stated. I've read countless superman comics and this is what I'm going by. You even admit in most of his fights he brawl more than uses MA... yet claim I haven't read enough superman by saying essentially that same thing? Pretty funny indeed. The facts ARE just as you point out... he brawls more than uses any kinda of MA skill what so ever. What he does know is shown few and far between during his fights and rarely ever mentioned. You can't attribute some crazy MA skills to somebody who rarely if ever shows it and go well he just chooses not to use them... Come on man.
facepalm
no. you're wrong.
just because someone chooses not to use martial arts skill when it's not required, doesn't mean they don't have it. the FACT that superman HAS SHOWN exceptional MA ability when it's been called for shows that he's more than deserving of tier 3 for me.
Originally posted by Deadline
Thats exacly what I was thinking, im afraid it seems hes not better than that at all. He might accuse you of not getting his analogy, when it simply isn't approriate.Edit: I take it back he really could be third tier. However I think some of the tiers are messed up Moon Knight and Punisher should not be in third tier.
editedit: Actually im not so sure. Theres a decent amount of people in third tier that are more impressive than Superman, just having pressure point feats isn't enough in itself.
yeah, because you're qualified to judge me, and have such a stellar record on this board as it is. ermm
that also counts as bashing, you know.
for anyone who wants to know what h2h feats he has, well:
Beating Gor with pressure points after STATING that he's been trained by the best martial artist on the planet.
Beating Mongul by, again, using pressure points.
Holding his own against Wonder Woman. How is this relevant, you say? Well, Wonder Woman fans love to go on about how she's faster reflex wise, and that the strength difference isn't that big. Yet i see some people claiming that he can't do what he does without his powers. So if she's faster and almost as strong, how is he using his speed to stay in the fight with her? Looks like either its skill, or that people are trying to have their cake and eat it too.
That, and they regularly spar.
that's just off the top of my head.
another thing i'd like to point out is that so often, it looks like its been argued that this thread isnt just about pure martial arts skill, but combat skill in general. if that IS the case, then Superman is more than just a tier 4. Even when brawling, he uses specific types of blows to get the desired effect (uppercuts to get more lift, etc), and knows how to use his opponent's weaknesses against them. That doesn't count?
Originally posted by marwash22Close combat weapon's skill can be considered, e.g. kendo is a martial art.
if weapon fighting doesn't count for much, i think Nightcrawler needs to be bumped down. He's currently 3rd, correct? He hasn't displayed much outside of swordsmanship.What does everyone think of Katana? i don't think she should be in third.
Originally posted by Q99Iirc, Aquaman punked Deathstroke once.
xmarksthespot
Close combat weapon's skill can be considered, e.g. kendo is a martial art.
Technically so is archery. I'd rather leave that out completely, if we wanted to do weapon's mastery that'd probably be a different list, and it's hard to compare unarmed and armed skill in some cases, especially with more unusual weapons.
Originally posted by marwash22
if weapon fighting doesn't count for much, i think Nightcrawler needs to be bumped down. He's currently 3rd, correct? He hasn't displayed much outside of swordsmanship.
Yea, good point. I'll vote him down to 4th.
What does everyone think of Katana? i don't think she should be in third.
Unarmed, I think it fits.
-PR-another thing i'd like to point out is that so often, it looks like its been argued that this thread isnt just about pure martial arts skill, but combat skill in general. if that IS the case, then Superman is more than just a tier 4. Even when brawling, he uses specific types of blows to get the desired effect (uppercuts to get more lift, etc), and knows how to use his opponent's weaknesses against them. That doesn't count?
But doesn't that apply to most other tier fours, like Rorschach and Batwoman?
Originally posted by Martian_mind
I propose Damien to fourth for the time being.His H2H feats are non-existent or unimpressive at this time. Most 3rd tiers would not be as thoroughly trounced by 2nd tiers as he is.
true, but he also like in his early teens right? Some of it might straight up be his lack in physical abilities, he no Dick or Cassie
Originally posted by Battlehammer
I find with that.true, but he also like in his early teens right? Some of it might straight up be his lack in physical abilities, he no Dick or Cassie
He's around about 8-10 years old IIRC.
However, his genetics are often referred to as perfect, so he's physically above anyone else that age. Drake and Todd have both been able to grab him mid attack and drop him with no visible effort, and they're 18 and 19 respectively.
Plus he was losing to cannon fodder ninja's, and was directly outfought by a trio Dick defeated, even having to ask him to take over. That's bottom rung shit right there.