Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I remember older hierarchies where Moondragon was at cosmic tier for that very reason. Unsure of how she got bumped down to uber to start out here. Three person limit maybe? Then vote for him to be in the second tier?
What I find akward is that Moondragon may have better feats than Gamora to get the third spot.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ In the case of Punisher -- who actually holds his own against DD rather than merely getting one lucky odd win -- it apparently means he has to be 'two tiers down.'nono
Yea, ok, I'll throw a vote to him to tier two.
I think he's somewhat inconsistent in his showings, but he can pull off enough good ones to get in.
Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy
Update.
-The changes that have been made are in bold, based on the following votes:
Lobo to fourth: 9 [Phil, Spire, marwash, batdude, comicfan, dmills, Q99, Kurupt, MM] / 0
Loki to fourth: 10 [Phil, Spire, marwash, batdude, comicfan, dmills, Q99, Bent, Kurupt, MM] / 1 [ODG]
Doctor Doom to fourth: 10 [Phil, Spire, marwash, batdude, comicfan, dmills, Q99, Bent, MM, Kurupt] / 3 [Jake, ODG, Trackz]
Beta Ray Bill to fourth: 9 [Phil, Spire, marwash, batdude, comicfan, dmills, Bent, Kurupt, MM] / 3 [Jake, ODG, Gecko]
Kalibak to fourth: 10 [Phil, Spire, marwash, batdude, comicfan, dmills, Kurupt, Q99, Bentley, MM] / 1 [Omega]
Aquaman to fourth: 9 [Phil, Spire, marwash, batdude, comicfan, Ize, Q99, MM, dmills] / 0
Black Bolt to fourth: 8 [Phil, Spire, marwash, batdude, comicfan, Ize, dmills, MM] / 1 [Gecko]
Dr Strange to fourth: 7 [Phil, Spire, marwash, batdude, comicfan, Q99, MM] / 1 [dmills]
Namor to fourth: 9 [Phil, Spire, marwash, batdude, comicfan, Ize, dmills, Q99, MM] / 1 [Gecko]
Robin (Damian) to fourth: 4 [marwash, X, MM, Battlehammer] / 1 [Phil]
Ares (Marvel) to fourth: 7 [Spire, marwash, batdude, comicfan, Bentley, MM, dmills] / 1 [ODG?]
Nightcrawler to fourth: 7 [Spire, batdude, comicfan, dmills, marwash, Q99, MM] / 1 [battlehammer]
Thor to fourth: 8 [Phil, Spire, marwash, batdude, comicfan, Ize, dmills, MM] / 3 [ODG, Jake, Gecko]
-There is now an empty Marvel top tier slot. The contenders nominated thus far are Psylocke, Gorgon and Black Panther - so opinions on who deserves the spot more are sought.
Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy [206]
Cosmic Tier: (Transcendent Martial Artists) [3]
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis
Uber Tier: (Unearthly Martial Artists) [9]
Adam Warlock, Iron Fist, Kirigi (DC), Mandarin, Moondragon, O-Sensei, Ogun, Stick, Temugin
Top Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"😉 [17]
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman (Bruce Wayne), Black Canary, Bronze Tiger, Captain America (Steve Rogers), Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Daredevil, Elektra, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Snake-Eyes, Storm Shadow, Taskmaster, Wolverine
Second Tier: (Master Martial Artists) [66]
Agent X, Alpha, Ares (DC), Artemis, Azrael, Backlash, Batman (Dick Grayson), Big Barda, Black Panther (T’Challa), Black Widow, Blade, Bucky Barnes, Bullseye, Cable, Captain Mar-Vell, Catman, Champion of the Universe, Cheshire, Crossbones, Daken, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Domino, Donatello, Echo, Erik Killmonger, Gorgon (Tomi Shishido), Grifter, Hawkeye (Clint Barton), Hawkman, Jason Blood, Judomaster (Hadley Jagger), Karnak, Lady Deathstrike, Leonardo, Mad Dog Cain, Magnus, Michaelangelo, Midnight Sun, Mr Sensitive, Natas, Nick Fury, Nomad (Jack Monroe), Orion, Ozymandias (DC), Prometheus, Puck, Raphael, Ra's al Ghul, Ravager (Rose Wilson), Red Hood (Jason Todd), Red Robin (Tim Drake), Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Steel Serpent, Stone, Talia al Ghul, Thanos, Twelve Brothers in Silk, Vandal Savage, White Tiger (Angela del Toro), Wildcat (Ted Grant), Wonder Woman, X-23, Zealot
Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists) [58]
Arsenal, Bane, Black Cat, Black Knight (Dane Whitman), Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Caiera, Colleen Wing, Doctor Mid-Nite, Donna Troy, Drax, Duke (GI Joe), Gambit, Green Arrow (Oliver Queen), Grendel (Hunter Rose), Heavy Duty (GI Joe), Hercules, Hippolyta, Huntress, Katana, KGBeast, Kingpin, Lady Vic, Lashina, Matsu'o Tsurayaba, Merlyn (DC), Midnighter, Mister America (Tex Thomson), Mister Terrific, Mockingbird, Moon Knight, Mystique, Night Thrasher, Omega Red, Onyx, Oracle (Barbara Gordon), Prodigy, Psylocke, Punisher, Revanche, Sabretooth, Sage, Shadowcat, Shatterstar, Shrike IV (Boone), Speedy (Mia Dearden), Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew), Stacy X, Starfire, Terry McGinnis, The Question (Vic Sage), Thena, Typhoid Mary, US Agent, V, Viper (Madame Hydra), Wild Child, Wong, Yukio
Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artists) [53]
Aquaman, Ares (Marvel), Batwoman, Beast, Beta Ray Bill, Black Bolt, Blink, Blue Devil, Boom Boom, Boy Blue, Cannonball, Carol Danvers, Catwoman, Cinderella, Colossus, Cyclops, Danielle Moonstar, Darkseid, Deathbird, Doctor Doom, Doctor Strange, Falcon, Hawkgirl, Invisible Woman, Iron Man, Jamie Madrox, Joker, Jubilee, Kalibak, Lex Luthor, Lobo, Loki, Luke Cage, Mister Fantastic, Misty Knight, Namor, Nightcrawler, Nite Owl II, Prince Charming, Robin (Damian Wayne), Rorschach, She-Hulk, Spider-Man, Storm, Strong Guy, Superman, Tarantula, Thing, Thor, Two-Face, Viper (Madame Hydra), Wonder Man, Zauriel
Notes:
-People should examine their older votes and see if they still stand now that a significant number of characters have been moved. Particularly on movements into/out of the third tier.
-The voting system has been amended slightly, although for the most part a three-vote majority will generally apply.
Total Votes | Majority Needed
3-11 | 3-vote majority
12-16 | 4-vote majority
17-19 | 5-vote majority
20+ | 63% in favor/opposed
-The following additions will be made in the next update unless there's opposition.
Mister Majestic to third: 5 [comicfan, Ize, Jake, dmills, Omega] / 0
Kang to third: 3 [Jake, Omega, Bentley] / 0
Master Izo to uber: 3 [Ize, dmills, srank] / 0
-There is one top tier Marvel slot currently open. I will be counting affirmative votes for the contenders only, as a vote for one is essentially a vote against the other.
-"Write-in votes" of other characters are also acceptable but without additional support they'll probably end up being discarded, as with Sabretooth, X23 etc. Although I can also tally "No votes" indicating you think neither deserves the top tier spot.
-I should note that movement of either Canary down without replacement will simply result in a vacant DC top tier slot.
Proposed Additions' Entry Points
Nemesis (Charis Adrastea) to second tier: 2 [comicfan, Style] /
Kanto to second tier: 2 [Omega, comicfan] /
Mera to third: 1 [Omega] / 1 [comicfan]
Tombstone to fourth: 1 [Omega] /
Juggernaut to fourth: 1 [Omega] /
Faora to second:1 [Omega] /
Savant (BoP) to second: 3 [marwash, Pr, Q99] / 1 [Konton]
King Snake to third: 1 [marwash] / 1 [Phil]
Master Po to uber: 2 [Ize, srank] /
Magog to third: 2 [MM, comicfan] /
Shado to fourth: 1 [marwash] /
Seven Deadly Brothers to ???: Prep-Man
Proposed Changes
Moon Knight to second: 7 [Trackz, dmills, Ize, llagrok, Fake McCoy, Deadline, Mungi] / 5 [Soljer, capt, endrict, Blanket, YFZ]
Gamora to uber: 9 [battlehammer, Spire, batdude, marwash, Ize, dmills, Q99, jalek, srank] / 7 [Kurupt, galactisishere, Tyrant, ODG, Blanket, Smurph, SuperiorTech]
Drakon to uber: 1 [Q99] / 3 [Juk3n, Pr, Konton]
Black Canary to second: 9 [Juk3n, Phil, Jake, Spire, Kurupt, MM, Omega, Pr, ODG] / 6 [X, batdude, marwash, srank, Konton, Q99]
Ares (Marvel) to second: 2 [ODG, comicfan] / 1 [jalek]
Gorgon to uber: 2 [srank, Trackz] / 2 [AlmightyK, Juk3n]
Drax to second: 3 [dmills, AlmightyK, Bentley] / 2 [Kurupt, Battlehammer]
Superman to third: 11 [Battlehammer, Jake, srank, Style, Omega, twigg, Spire, Phil, batdude, Pr, ODG] / 10 [Ize, jugg74, Q99, dmills, comicfan, RAGE, Kurupt, Blanket, MM, marwash]
Nick Fury to third: 2 [Juk3n, Q99] / 3 [Ize, jalek, battlehammer]
Blue Devil to third: 2 [MM, comicfan] / 0
Katana to second: 1 [marwash]
Prodigy to second: 1 [Trackz] /
Question to second: 1 [MM] / 1 [marwash]
Hercules to fourth: 6 [Spire, marwash, batdude, Ize, dmills, MM] / 4 [ODG, Jake, comicfan, jalek]
Punisher to second: 11 [Q99, snoop, dmills, Trackz, jalek, ODG, Juk3n, YFZ, Deadline, Konton, MM] / 9 [Battlehammer, Phil, Style, comicfan, Omega, Kurupt, marwash, batdude, iceman]
Nominations for the Marvel Top Tier slot:
Black Panther: 3 [comicfan, Trackz, Bentley]
Psylocke: 6 [Ize, Konton, dmills, srank, Omega, marwash]
Gorgon: 1 [Juk3n]
P.S. I don't think I've missed any votes, but if I have or have made any mistakes then let me know/repost them.
Originally posted by dmillsThere's still a couple that I can't remember why are in the third e.g. Mister America? And Ted Kord.
Now that 3rd tier looks a hell of a lot better. 4th does as well.
Also in light of the large revamp, I have to say I somewhat agree with Philosophia/batdude about the move of Punisher.
He is a character that's probably on the borderline between the third and second tier, but I'm not sure that warrants his moving up.
If the premise behind his movement is that a few characters in the tier above are as/less skilled then him, then the movement may be unwarranted, if the rest of the second tier can be considered more skilled than him.
It may rather be a case that those seconds should be moved to the third tier, in a similar manner that a large chunk of the third has been moved to fourth.
I'm not voting one way or the other on the move but that's just my two cents.
I'd be up for Jason Blood moving to Third or even fourth depending on what others feel is appropriate. Ozymandias to Third also strikes me as a potential move. Ares(DC) to fourth as well. What has he done that's overly impressive exactly? Oh, and Hawkman to third. Dunno how that snuck in (goddamn Mungi)
I'll keep my vote for Punisher to second. I can't see anyone outfighting him in third tier without the use of powers, and I can see him matching people in second tier.
Originally posted by Q99I think he's somewhat inconsistent in his showings, but he can pull off enough good ones to get in.
Ok heres a couple more.
Originally posted by Deadline
Lets take a look at the DD vs Punisher series. A lot of people use these fights as proof that DD kicks Punisher’s butt in a fight but that’s flawed logic. Heres the first fight in that series. DD dances around Punisher but the fight ends with DD getting rocked by a punch from Punisher.
I cant be arsed to get the next scan but it looked like DD was picking himself off the floor.
Originally posted by DeadlineDD dislocates Punishers wrist before the fight starts and is able to unleash more devastating attacks. Punisher gets knocked to the ground but still manages to get up and launch him through a window.
Heres him owning Aloysha Kravinoff again.
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/8098/10845986.png
Originally posted by xmarksthespotAlso in light of the large revamp, I have to say I somewhat agree with Philosophia/batdude about the move of Punisher.
He is a character that's probably on the borderline between the third and second tier, but I'm not sure that warrants his moving up.
Bullseye is second tier and hes beaten him twice in h2h. What about him stalemating Moon Knight several times.
To be quite honest with its probably ignorance on the part of Batdude and Philsophia their DC Batman family and haven't read as much on Punisher as I have. Serioulsy what warrants Punisher being on the borderline between third and second. Has anyone in the second tier owned his arse or in the third tier. I don't think anyone has. Even DD whos top tier has a hard time defeating him I don't know how that translates into third tier.
Originally posted by Deadline
[b]Punisher vs. Deadpool The fight ends with Punisher having the advantage
[/B]
P.S. Im not even sure wether Phil or Batdudes votes should be even counted because it seems its done out of spite. Phil pretty much made that clear. No spite threads allowe in the vs forum no spite votes allowed in voting that seems pretty fair to me.
look at the Punisher situation this way. If he was placed 1 tier Below Daredevil on a H2H scale to BEGIN WITH, you wouldn't be able to argue him down a further tier. The blatant evidence says he's a tier under Daredevil according to their fights. But i gotta ask. Is it his toughness that lets him hang or his actual Martial skill? I mean yeah, he can spot openings and take advantage when he see's the chance, but is that a credit to his MA aptitude or his natural fighting intuition?
